OTS 178: Challenging Ableism Through Neurodiversity-Affirming School Practice
- Jayson Davies
- Jun 16
- 46 min read
Updated: Jun 17
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 178 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
What does it really mean to provide neurodiversity-affirming care in schools? In this episode, Dr. Bryden Carlson-Giving—a neurodivergent OT and creator of the Empower Model—shares powerful insights and practical strategies to move beyond deficit-focused practices and truly center student voice, identity, and autonomy.
You’ll learn how to write strengths-based goals, conduct inclusive evaluations, and support authentic participation—while navigating the real-world challenges of school-based OT. Whether you're a seasoned OT or new to the field, this conversation will leave you inspired and equipped to better support neurodivergent learners.
Listen now to learn the following objectives:
Learners will understand the foundations of neurodiversity affirming practice
Learners will identify practical strategies to make OT services more empowering for neurodivergent students
Learners will explore the empower model in School-Based OT
Guest(s) Bio
Bryden Carlson-Giving, OTD, OTR/L is a neurodivergent and disabled occupational therapy practitioner (OTP) with experience in pediatric outpatient, inpatient, and school-based settings. Bryden earned his post-professional doctorate from Boston University, where his research focused on creating a toolkit to support OTPs in challenging ableism within the OT profession. This work led to the development of the first neurodiversity-affirming occupational therapy model, the EMPOWER model.
Bryden is also the creator of Neurodivergent Nexus, an online resource hub that supports practitioners in challenging ableism throughout the OT process. He received the 2024 Emerging Leader Award from Boston University, and will publish a book on this work in March 2026, titled "Neurodiversity-Affirming Occupational Therapy: Empowering Approaches to Foster Neurodivergent Participation.”
Quotes
"Neurodiversity is everybody. It’s neurotypicals, it’s neurodivergents… The whole purpose of neurodiversity is not meant to create a divide—it was created to help provide a language and a framework for elucidating the fact that we all experience the world differently, and even if you do, that’s not wrong. It’s actually quite beautiful."
—Bryden Carlson-Giving, OTD, OTR/L
"OT has such strong potential to be a profession of empowerment and liberation, but in order for us to really do that, we need to really think about everything that we thought we knew OT should be about."
—Bryden Carlson-Giving, OTD, OTR/L
“An evaluation isn’t just something we go through the motions for—we do the evaluation to get all this information so that it can inform our therapy moving forward.”
— Jayson Davies, M.A., OTR/L
Resources
Episode Transcript
Expand to view the full episode transcript.
Jayson Davies
Hey there, and welcome back to the OT school house podcast. I'm your host, Jayson Davies, and today is episode number 178, thanks for being here. Today. We are diving into a conversation I've been excited to share with you for a long time. In fact, it's something that I have been actively trying to find the best possible person to explore this topic with you, with, with you, with that's a weird way to say that. But okay, let's go with it anyways. I finally found that person. I connected with him in 2024 at a ot a and again now at the 2025 A ot a inspire conference, and I'm excited to welcome him to the podcast. That person is Bryden Carlson giving.Bryden is a neurodivergent and disabled school based ot practitioner who has also worked in a pediatric outpatient setting as well as inpatient settings. He earned his post professional doctorate from Boston University, where his research focused on challenging ableism in OT that led to the development of his Empower model, the first neurodiversity affirming ot framework of its kind. Brydon is also the creator of neurodivergent Nexus, an online resource hub for practitioners looking to challenge ableism and affirm neurodivergent identity throughout the OT process, he was recently honored with Boston University's 2024 Emerging Leader Award, and in 2026 he'll be publishing his first book titled neurodiversity affirming occupational therapy, empowering approaches to foster neurodivergent participation. And you can bet there will be some school based ot language in there. Now in this episode, Brighton and I are exploring what it really means to be neurodiversity affirming in school based practice, not just in theory, but in how we evaluate students, write goals, provide intervention and advocate for their inclusion and autonomy every step of the way. So without any further ado, let's welcome Brad into the show and dive into this thoughtful and empowering conversation.
Amazing Narrator
Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Bryden welcome to the OT school house podcast. How you doing today?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Oh my gosh. So excited and honored to hear Jayson. Holy buckets.
Jayson Davies
I love that. I love that. You know, I am excited to have you, Brian, like we've been coordinating this for what seems like a long time now. I think we first met at a OT, a down in Florida officially, and then more recently, in Philadelphia, had a chance to catch up, and I just love everything you're doing. I mean, I love everything that you're doing around neurodiversity affirming practice, but I also just love the idea that you are willing to not only answer the tough questions, but also ask the tough questions. And kind of come from this mindset that occupational therapy is not perfect. It hasn't been perfect. It can always get better. And just that, like you're trying to make ot better. And I love that.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Thanks. That's nice for you. Thanks, Jayson.
Jayson Davies
no, it's it's true. I mean, a lot of people at the end of a session are ready to get up, walk out, go get their snack, go grab a coffee, and you are there for the entire bit of it, and want to get the most out of it and and I really appreciate that, that you really want to better OT and that's exactly what we're here to do today. So let's dive into it. You ready?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely.
Jayson Davies
All right. Well, let's go ahead, hit the ground running, because you have so much to say today, even if you don't know that you do, I'm gonna get it out of you. So we're gonna get it. But I want to start with the idea of neurodiversity affirming as like this buzzword. And I bring this up because I feel like some people within OT and outside of OT kind of have this idea that neurodiversity is a buzzword. Some people might even say we're all neurodiverse. Or some people might say, you know, this is just a divisive term that, you know, almost pitting neurodiverse people against, quote, unquote, typical people. And I just want to give you a moment to kind of address this, because you have actually done some research. And I want to, you know, pick your brain a little bit.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yes? Oh my gosh, no. That's a really great question. I think, well, first off too, and this is something that thing is very often confused within the neurodiversity movement and the neurodiversity just community, is that the premise of neurodivergent versus neurodiverse? I think oftentimes people use neurodiverse and neurodivergent as synonymous terms, but they're not. Neurodiverse is referring to everybody. So I illustrated, if everyone's average today, illustrated like the neurodiversity multiverse. It's like a huge concept. It's on my website. But in that neurodiversity multiverse, I actually also include neurotypicals, because neurodiversity is everybody. It's. It's neurotypicals. It's neuro divergence. I think when you're talking that's like, about the community, it's kind of like diversity everyone is, is like, even within the sexual sexuality, diversity universe, like heterosexuality, is within that umbrella, within the neurodiversity multiverse. Neurotypical individuals are within that multiverse. So in truth, technically, everyone, we are all neurodiverse. But we weren't talking about neurodivergence, where your brain, how you process and experience the world to diverges from the neuro normative norm. You're considered neurodivergent, and that includes anybody who not just individuals that were born with a neurodivergence, like developmental whether it's being autistic, being an ADHD, or learning differences, but it's also those that have acquired neurodivergence, so you acquired it during your lifetime, but also includes mental health, so like depression, post traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain injury, Down syndrome, like the intellectual development disabilities community, is also within this umbrella. And the whole purpose of neurodiversity is not meant to create a divide. It was created to help provide a language and a framework for like, elucidating the fact that we all experience the world differently, and even if you do experience the world differently, that's not wrong. It's actually quite beautiful, and you deserve to to continue to experience and participate in the world differently, and you are not required to try to change how you experience the world, how you present yourself, to fit with what the neuro normative norm is. That was a lot of word vomit. Did that make any sense?
Jayson Davies
It did. And I mean, I love that you gave that response, because I fit right into that category like I was definitely I still am, and I will be, until I really wrap my head around it. Is someone who has confused those terms between neurodiversity, neurodivergent. I think even that in even in that question, I basically shared that Oh. And so I love that explanation. Thank you.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Huge concept. Go ahead now you go just, it's a huge concept, and it's been around. Neurodiversity has been around for forever. It's not that it just happened these past, like 2020, years. It's always been around. It's just now we've had really brave people do the work and provide a framework. And I'm really excited for the neurodiversity movement to really infiltrate OT, and it really is beginning to really infiltrate OT. So it's really exciting.
Jayson Davies
I love that. I love that, yeah, like now I better understand how to talk about this a little bit and continuing down that road, as you just kind of alluded to. It's been around forever, but the last 20 years or so, it's started to creep more into occupational therapy, and now it is, it is here, and I want to get a little bit, and you can work your background into this a little bit. But how did you become involved into the neurodivergent neurodiversity conversation? And I guess, kind of what, what grasped you and made you go this route and look into this?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah, well, I so I'm somebody, so I'm a, I'm an ADHD er, I also have depression and PTSD, and I was actually diagnosed first with depression when I was getting my masters. I actually firmly believe, because I I've always had ADHD, but because I didn't fit, like the one of three or four boxes of what ADHD looks like, I never got the supports and services that I needed. And I think actually, because I never got those services, supports, the depression actually ended up manifesting. And that's actually, if anyone's interested, there's a lot of great literature coming out with those with those with CO occurring neurodivergencies that have ADHD or they're autistic, is that if they have another co occurring diagnosis, they're actually finding out that a lot of people, all these individuals, have developed, like, anxiety, depression, like first, like they were diagnosed with Those ones first, because they weren't diagnosed with being autistic or being an ADHD or with a different neurodivergence. It's like totally to adapt to the world and embrace parts of who you are. You called yourself dumb or stupid like it did my entire life, because I have terrible short term memory. My very first ot job, I mean, right out of school, was at an ABA clinic. And my first I mean, four or five months in, I remember observing some ABA and some even some stuff that, like ot like, with our community we were publishing and training some like, this, doesn't, I don't know. This doesn't feel right. And then I ended up just kind of diving down huge rabbit holes of social media accounts and blogs that were ran by neurodivergent people. But then I also discovered Meg, Proctor of learn, play, thrive. Like, back when Meg was just first creating, it was, like, her first year. I'm so proud of, like, where her platform is now. But I really opened up the world of neurodiverse, of strengths based approaches. And then, yeah, after strengths based approaches, that's when I really started discovering neurodiversity. And. I kind of really applying it to myself, and it has completely fundamentally changed everything that I thought I knew about ot.
Jayson Davies
You led me right into the next question that I was thinking about as you were, as you were, given that response, and that is the idea of OT, inherently, or not inherently, as a neurodiversity affirming practice. And again, I just kind of want to get your thoughts on this, because I I know you, and I have heard a little bit about your thoughts on this, but I've never heard you respond to like this. Question, is ot inherently a neurodiverse affirming practice, or is it something that is evolving and needs to continue to evolve?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think occupational therapy has such a beautiful opportunity, has such strong potential to be a profession of like empowerment and liberation. But in order for us to really do that, we need to really think about everything that we thought we knew what ot should be about, because I believe how many higher education programs that you know create occupational theory practitioners when you're a student and are continuing education at conferences led by our organizations, I mean, they're quite ableist. And I think, I believe ot has a lot of has so much work to do to be neurodiversity for me. And that being said, Though I even this year at a ot a it's been it's so helpful and so exciting to see so many more presentations even talk about neurodiversity and really take it seriously. And it's more about kind of getting people with a lot of the lot of the power to really authentically engage in those conversations. I mean, you saw me, you saw me ask those questions that when it was the session on OTs the sensory integration guidelines, and you know, whether or not sensory integration is neurodiverse, affirming is a whole nother conversation. But when you have a set of guidelines that uses ableist research, I mean, you can, you can switch language in an article and say, well, a lot of the articles that we still use still use sensory processing disorder, difficulties, challenges, dysfunction, but even if some articles like you can change it from sensory processing dysfunction to differences, but yet you're still measuring change and how autistic someone is, or how much they tolerate sensory input, or even if you use an occupation based assessment tool, like the Canadian occupational performance measure, the goal attainment scaling. You know they're supposed to be better than using standardized assessment tools. But if you're still your goals of how you're measuring success is really comparing to neuro normative norms, it still is ableist. And, you know, my question to them was, you know, you know, we're saying that sensory integration is evidence based, fine. You know that, whether or not that's taken that part of the equation of you know, how are you reconciling with the fact that all of these articles, like 99% of them, I've looked into each every single one of them myself. I've been talking about this stuff for a very for, you know, sensory processing and neurodiversity affirming care for three years now, and they all use ableist ways of measuring success. And I think if people in power really want to get the trust of neurodivergent OTs and really kind of walk the walk. I think we need to be better about that, like we need to reconcile with that, like you need to be open about that and say, yeah, for the longest time, we've been researching asi. We've been using that super great outcomes. We're apologizing. We're trying to make do with that, or even like strengths based approaches, the autistic guidelines that were the autistic individual practice guidelines that were just redone with my queen, Goddess Christy Patton and with Kavitha Murthy. I mean, they set a really good example. I mean, they literally invited autistic people to not just share what, what like a ot A should be prioritizing, or what the researchers, what Kavitha and Christy and Scott, what they should be prioritizing in the research. They literally were a part of the research the entire step of the way. They helped guide the questions. They helped guide what the outline like, what what the guidelines looked like. And that's, that's ally ship. And I think that people in power really need to kind of follow that kind of road, like inviting people that sensory processing differences to be a part of the work. Like, you know, are we even getting the guiding questions right? And I think I'm just, I'm so excited and so hopeful for, you know, little itty bitty people like me to, like, share these thoughts with people, and that people are listening, and other like, remarkable friends that are doing such great work in this and being brave and being courageous, and ever so slowly, like we're seeing these changes, yeah, but yeah, still a little bit of a journey, for sure. And that's and that's okay, yeah.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And you know, just like each individual person, organizations have to grow, organizations have to change, and they have to make meaningful changes, just like individuals and and that's great that you're starting to see that, and we're starting to see that with a ot A, and it's going to take time to move the needle with that said, looking back a little bit when you are looking at research, what are you looking for in an article? What are you looking for that shows you, hey, this study actually applies to neurodivergent people, and it is actually informed by neurodivergent people.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Oh, my gosh, yeah. So my first go to is language. I mean, language is not everything, but I also firmly believe that language is a powerful step. I mean, through language, we make powerful cases, and we'd like we declare love for our partners, like language is still powerful, even though action needs to follow language use. But, you know, is the article, a, are they even, you Well, A, are they even including neurodiverse? I mean, are they even mentioning that they've included the community of people that they're attempting to serve in the article, like, if it's an article about supporting an ADHD or student, do they even invite an ADHD or adult or individual to help with that article? What language are they using? How are they even describing in their introduction? How are they describing the neurodivergence. I've seen so many articles that are making the steps where, you know, for a lot of autistic individuals, they don't, I totally understand, like, don't like Autism Spectrum Disorder, so they say, you know, autistic or and so articles will like, they'll, they'll still use identity first language, but they'll still talk about what's a disorder. And so that language, if they, if they, if they've included a community member that they're attempting to serve and support within the article, how are they measuring success? So I always love looking into the into the methods and the results on how exactly are they measuring how effective the intervention or the strategy, or whatever they're trying to prove, or, I should say, prove, but like, show that it's efficacious. Are they measuring it by how long a student so I'm just thinking, I'm sticking with the school based example. Like, are they measuring, you know, how quietly the student sits at their desk? Are they measuring how little help the student asks the student request for help? Are they measuring how still the student is, are they measuring how much the student is looking at the teacher? Because those are all very neuro normative ways of viewing attention, because many neurodivergent people attend to things very differently, but those are the primary ways that I really love to look at articles first to see how seriously I take them. Because, you know, even within our evidence level period, you know, systematic reviews, meta analyzes are like the highest level form of evidence, I will, you bet that I will take a blog post that an autistic person wrote about a treatment intervention, I'll take that way more seriously than a meta analysis about the same intervention that did not include autistic people at all.
Jayson Davies
Interesting.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have a whole nother thing that talks about the hidden, the inequity that the hidden biases and evidence is practiced, and how that actually promotes inequity for that very same reason. But that's a whole nother wonderful conversation we could have. But yes.
Jayson Davies
So I don't want to get too far into the weeds on this. But quick question, this is your podcast. You get to do whatever you want. Quick question, hopefully. Quick question outside of occupational therapy outside of the tradition, I don't know, or maybe within the traditional related services, as we often think of them. What professions do you see as kind of doing the right things, doing the best job? To make sure that research about neurodivergent people includes neurodivergent people, and that you know how they're measuring progress and whatnot. Is there? Do you feel like there is a model out there?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
No, that's a great question. I would say it's less about profession and more about maybe potentially location. I've been finding a lot of really great work has like, I feel like Canada, Australia, at least, from the articles that I've been finding have been in many ways, there are light years ahead of OT in the United States, especially when it comes to like, occupation based practice and all that. But especially when it comes to neurodiversity like I remember reading, it's like top five favorite articles of all time. I forget exactly how it's called, but it was like supporting, and this was like a 2009 2008 articles. They used ASD, but no, they were like, are we even, like, rightfully supporting children with ASD question mark? And it was like, are we losing our occupation? Centered focus. And they talk about, because this was a time too, I think, when sensory processing became much more of a conversation, and there was a lot of literature coming out about it, and a lot of time, and they're talking about how, you know, sensory processing differences are not a pathology that needs fixing. It's a unique form of the human experience. And this was a 2008 article. I think now maybe people are even maybe considering that idea in such a peer reviewed literature kind of way. Yeah, Canada and Australia, they've been, they've been publishing some really great work for a while, and that's why I think ot has such a such potential to be such fantastic allies to the neurodiversity movement. Because we're focused on participation, we're focusing on adapting the environment like we are so perfect to be like tremendous lava racist allies to the neurodiversity movement far better than any other profession such potential there.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, spot on the way that occupational therapy looks at the whole person. I think you're absolutely right about that. So yeah. All right, well, we're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we are going to jump back in with Brighton and talk more specifically about school based occupational therapy. So stay tuned. All right, we are back with Brydon, and want to jump more into school based ot specific, within neurodiversity affirming. And I think as school based ot practitioners, we all want to be that ally. We all want to be neurodiver neurodivergent or neurodiversity affirming, to support all neurodivergent people. But we sometimes struggle with understanding what that even actually looks like. And so when you talk to people and say, Hey, I'm a school based occupational therapy, I really try to support neurodivergent people within my within my role. I try to support all people within my role. How do you kind of elevator pitch that a little bit? Or how do you go into detail? Like, what does that actually mean to you to be a neurodiversity affirming therapist within a school based ot world?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah, so a neurodiversity, a neurodiverse affirming approach in the schools. It's really this fundamental shift from how we view neurodivergent students, like they're not students that need to be fixed, but as a whole, like neurodivergent people are capable people that have fairly, very valid ways of thinking, feeling, communicating and participating in the world. And it's really about supporting their academic success and their overall like academic well being on their terms, and not necessarily like what the team thinks is best for them, or what teachers feel like is best for them. It's really honoring their strengths and their sensory and their cognitive needs in a way that really allows them to be their most authentic, authentic selves. And so for me, really what that looks like. It's like really rejecting, like the deficit based model, or the deficit based approach that really dominates school systems, and it really means like that we presume competence in every single student, especially when there's a lot of behavior, like a lot of challenges, or assumptions I should say about their communication or about their behavior, and I know we'll probably get more into this later on the podcast, but like, it's really about having the student be an authentic partner in their IEP. To me, that's like, the most neurodiverse, affirming thing you can do is really having a student not have the services being done to them, but the services services are really being done with them. And like, their lived experience and their voice is, like, central to the entire IEP. And what I like to tell people, people, whenever people, when we talk about neurodiverse, affirming practice in schools, is that it requires us to use our full scope of practice, that we go beyond handwriting and sensory and sensory diets. Like, like, I always tell my teams know that when I do evals and like, when I support with like intervention that they know, you know, I still support handwriting, I still support, you know, fine motor skills, but they know that's like 10% like my they know that when they when they want support and supporting positive disability identity, inclusion of that student within their general education classroom, supporting positive mental health and really helping coach them on to help better, help the student, like, really have more, more of a voice within the IEP. Like, that's that's when the teams reach out to me and to me, that's like, really what neurodiversity affirming OT is in the schools. It's so fun, it's so beautiful, and it's so fun.
Jayson Davies
Do you ever feel like the system makes that complicated? Do you ever feel like the system of school based occupational therapy makes being a neurodiverse, affirming therapist difficult?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yes, and I also feel like because of the system, because of how it's done, compared to outpatient and hospital like I'm. Speaking of like, you know, pediatric, outpatient, hospital based, we have far more wiggle room to be neurodiversity affirming. Like Minnesota, I don't, can't say 100% sure if it's if it's nationwide, but in the state of Minnesota, we're not required to use standardized assessments to help decide if, if a team would benefit from an OT supporter being a part of the team. And in many outpatient settings, you depending on the insurance, you need to have a standardized assessment score, you know, negative two standard deviations to qualify for insurance reimbursement or bottom fifth percentile. Like I probably I haven't used a center like a norm, referenced assessment tool in years and with the system, with how we are a related service, like we don't have specific goals on the IEP, like we really get to decide how our OT services are used to support the student. And I would say, with 85% of the students that I support in my district, 85% of them. It's focused on positive mental health. It's focused on interception. It's focused on really helping the student, in some capacity, lead a self determined life as a student and just better access and inclusion within their school environment. Whereas, like, yeah, the 15% is like, handwriting, fine motor skills, but because we are a related service provider, I mean, because we don't need to use norm reference tools, least, at least in the state of Minnesota, I feel like we have such wiggle room to be able to be neurodiversity affirming.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and, and I think that is across the country from my understanding. And again, I'm in California, but I've talked to a lot of therapists all over the country. Yeah, idea does not require a standardized assessment tool. So when someone is requiring a standardized assessment tool, I have found it is typically related to the billing in some case or another, not necessarily related directly to providing services. So yeah, all right, I want to dive into evaluations, goals, some of the things that you just mentioned, as well as what you know ot service delivery even looks like from your perspective. But first, I know that you have this model called the Empower model, and I want to give you a moment to talk a little bit about that and where it fits into school based. OT. Side note for everyone listening right now, be sure to go check out neurodivergent nexus.com because Brighton also, like he really does put all these really into pictures, and he does it himself, no AI included, like he's an artist here. So you need to be able, or you need to be sure to check out his website and see all these, but it'll kind of help a visual to go along with the episode. So with that, Brandon, I do want to give you just a moment to talk about the Empower model, and kind of where that fits into school based. OT.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. So the Empower framework is a model that I developed over the course of my it's actually created. It's actually like a side accident. I wasn't actually never planning on having that be a part of my doctoral work through Boston University a couple years ago, I basically was created this, this neurodiversity firming, anti ableist toolkit for OTs, and did a huge literature review on really exploring what have not just neurodivergent OTs, but justice focused, oriented OTs. Have set about just equity and inclusion within occupational therapy. And I was very surprised, even though neurodiversity is, you know, it's still kind of up and coming within OT, but it's been in, it's been in conversations for, you know, a few years now, we still, we never really had a framework or a model that not only focused on that really cut try, attempted to blend the neurodiverse affirming framework, or provide an avenue for the neurodiverse affirming framework to be combined With ot in a systematic way, but also we never, we don't have, to my knowledge, a framework or a model that really requires OTs to be critically reflexive or to support anti ableism. And so really, you know, with like even Moho, the model, model of human occupation, and even the remarkable P, O, P model, the participation environment, occupation performance model, they're occupation based. They're fantastic. But because of ableism, and how ableism is so intertwined, and how we even conceptualize occupation, there is still so much room for ableism to infiltrate those models. And still, you're still able, more able to perpetuate ableism through these models. And so I remember sitting with my husband, we were watching, like Real Housewives of like, Salt Lake City or something, and we were talking and just kind of sharing my frustration about how, you know, we don't have a framework, you know, we don't, you know, we don't have, like, a model, and it's. It's so tricky. And he was like, well, you basically did the lit review. Why don't you, like, give it a try? And I'm like, lol, that's funny. He's like, No, seriously, just get some liquid courage. Go explore and just give it a go for like, a week. And that's where the Empower model came from. So it's the empower the Empower model is the empowering, neurodivergent occupational participation and well being model, if you choose to go to the website, no worries. If not, will not be offended. But like on the outside, it's the I love the design because it was inspired by my love for fantasy video games and like science and so like on the outside, it's these four theoretical foundations that guide the model. So it's strengths based approaches display justice, anti racism and trauma, informed care, and they're all bonded by like lived experience, kind of like an atom, because really lived experience should be interwoven through everything, everything that we want, that we do to be neurodiversity for me, and then around the core, which is the goal of supporting neurodivergent occupational participation and wellbeing, around that core is the anti ableist occupational therapy process. I know we're not supposed to have favorite things when it comes to stuff that we make, but I will say the anti ableist ot process is probably my favorite, because that is, I think, where the bread, or the bread and butter comes in of providing a like, a really systematic approach how to apply anti ableism and the neurodiverse affirming framework in a very practical process. And so you have stage one, which is critical reflexivity. Stage two is inclusive evaluations. Stage three is affirming services and supports. Stage Four is neurodivergent outcomes, and stage five is advocacy, my big hope and dream. So I'm actually currently working on revisions to get this article published right now. And within that article, it provides a lot of practical ideas on each step. And I'm not talking like really abstract ideas. I'm talking about like these are ideas that you can apply tomorrow. Like these the assessment tools you can pick from if you hear, ways that you can reflect on your own ableism or your own biases. Here are the resources to choose from, or here are the intervention methods to choose from. This is how you can write strengths based on empowering goals. I provide all like really provide all that I do have ideas to link within my website, within my doctoral project, it's like, couple years old already, but yeah, that's, that's the model, yeah, yes.
Jayson Davies
And absolutely everybody, go check it out. Neurodivergent nexus.com just find the Empower model. It's easy to find, and we'll also link to it in the show notes. But I think I want to focus now on that cycle that incorporates all the steps you got, the five steps, reflection on ableism, inclusive evaluations, affirming service delivery, neurodivergent outcomes, and then, of course, advocacy. And I really want to focus, I think, in the time we have left on two, three and four evaluations, service delivery and outcomes. And so starting with evaluations from your perspective, within the Empower framework, what does that look like? What does it mean to have an inclusive evaluation?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah, so for me, I centered the students, lived experiences the center of my evaluation. I was so surprised by the number of school based OTs that I've talked to presentations, but with other school districts of how they just run IEPs, of how little student voice is actually incorporated, like I have experienced many IEP and eval like evaluate initials and re evaluations where the student is. There was never an assessment done with the student themselves. It was always caregiver sharing their information, the teacher, the psychologist, making their inferences about the data they collected by working directly with the student. And it's so surprising to me, of how this humongous service, how little the student was involved in it. And so I, for me, especially for initial evaluations, I always do a strengths based student interview with the student themselves. Right? Really, like, and I will probably get into all the different assessment tools too, but really highlighting like the student to try to be their most authentic selves. Like, I really, I love evaluations and reevaluations, because for me, it is an opportunity to try to try to show to teams that maybe we've been getting it wrong, like, maybe we need to be thinking about the student in a different way. And I can't even tell you the number of times where I've had family email me after reading the email report, and they'll be like, Wow. Like, you're like, Thank you for how you've written about my student. Like, I've never thought about my own child that way before. It was, it was like, it was like, an exhale. And so for me, really highlighting the lived experiences of the students in some capacity and whatever is sustainable for you, using affirming assessment tools. And then we'll get into that. And the schools typically go like OTs, technically, don't, shouldn't, quote, unquote, shouldn't, have their own. Goals within IEPs, but I do love to help collaborate on goals. I'm pretty vocal about that. I love to support writing strengths based on empowering goals with team members. So if we're talking about like during like during the meeting, like, we're talking about, you know, a student, and we're talking about like assistance and help of like, Oh, what if we could, what if we created a goal that focused on their ability to self advocate for their needs, or to be able to advocate for their accommodations? And we technically, students should always have their accommodations, but in the system that we're in that never, that often, does not really happen, but like really working on those self advocacy skills for the students their their ability to advocate for what they need, and so even offering to help write empowering goals, because even those like little conversations you have, advocacy work isn't just like protesting on the street or, you know, it's not that not just these big, momentous forms of Advocacy, advocacy is also the little more quieter moments. It's like, the those everyday conversations, like that five minute conversation you had with a special education teacher about autistic identity or or it's, you know, talking with another with, like, I don't know, your ot colleague about, you know, police brutality and racism with an OT like, it can just be those little moments too, and it's so beautiful. Of like, even just go talking about how to write goals, people will be like, Oh, I've never thought about writing a goal like that before. Oh, I didn't even realize that we can do that. Or because I, like, I said, language is so powerful, and with how we document, like, strengths based documentation is another part. So like, how you write up your reports, like research showed that how we write about students, how we write about people, it influences not only the fam, like the families when they're reading these reports, but also the students, if they ever do choose to read them, especially if they're middle school or high school. And like, I believe, how you write so, like the way you write about a student, like, when you write about a child differently, like, everybody sees a different child. You know what I mean? It's if you don't write about them from a Deaf right? Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, if I do like, a quick like checklist, like in the affirming assessment tools, centering the students voice as a part of the evaluation process, strengths based documentation, oh, assessing environmental supports and barriers. Like I always whether it's an assessment tool I use or it's questions I use with the students, I always assess, how is their general education classroom, or how is the school environment, how is it inhibiting, and how is it also supporting their ability to be the student that they want to be? Those would probably the primary ways, primary, like components of inclusive evaluations.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I really appreciate that. And, and when it comes to, you know, injecting the student's voice into the report, into the evaluation, is that, as simple as you know, while you're working with the student to see how their fine motor skills are doing, just to kind of have a conversation with them, you know, while they're doing that, need to plug that in. Or do you have some sort of structured interview that you like to use? Do you have three questions that you like to ask? How do you like to get that information?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
You know, it all depends on what the team thinks my focus will be during the eval. So, like, what? It's a mixture of things. So if I'm a part of the eval primarily because of fine motor handwriting, surprise, surprise, right? Especially if they're like in second grade or above, when I'm like, assessing their ability to do different fine motor tasks that the student finds meaningful, not just fine motor tests that, like, we believe are meaningful, but like, really focusing on like, hey, like, do you want to get better at cutting? Do you want to get better at handwriting? But even the handwriting conversation, I always prioritize asking them, like, you know, how is you know? How is handwriting going for you? Do you even care about getting better at handwriting and really, kind of exploring the avenue of, like, assistive technology, if the student has expressed an interest in using at all, even during the eval, have that be a part of the assessment? Like, hey, how well can you use Google, read and write? How well can you speech a text and few good friends? And Alexis or so? Strengths based collective Kelsey Reed, she's an autistic psychologist. She's remarkable. They just released this, the self efficacy plan. It's also a strengths based interview protocol, and I've been using that as my primary method of maybe, while we're coloring together, while we're playing a game where, basically, I'll ask the student, like, hey, like, what parts of school are hard for you? Not just purchase school that we believe are hard for you, or that we've been told that are hard for you, but like, from your perspective, what parts of school hard for you, even just, and please don't let it just be math or reading. It could be like, yeah, friendships tricky is like, the lunchroom too loud, and really offering them a vulnerable like, a safe space for them to like, really share what that might be. And even like, by the time we finish our my portion of the eval with them, like the. Interview and stuff. I'll even ask them, like, hey, like, I've written down these few things that are really hard for you. Out of these things, what are some things that you really would love to try to work on or get support with while you're at school so the students can help kind of identify, kind of like a mini CEO PM, in a way, like the goals that they want to prioritize in the school environment. Those are some, like, really, really quick ways. Like, don't be afraid to have the interview with students. I think I've been learning it's actually quite uncommon for OTs to do that in the schools, is to actually, like, not just do fine motor testing, but like just talking with them, and like believing everything they're saying and asking some of these questions.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there are students who have difficulty with expressing themselves for many various reasons. There are kids who have difficulty expressing themselves, and there are alternatives to that, and I'll ask you that in a moment, but yeah, when we have the ability to speak with a student that is, gosh, that can lead to so many amazing things like you mentioned, right? Like just knowing what the students thoughts are on handwriting, on assistive technology. Do they already know how to use speech, to text, all those different things can can really support you moving forward. And we also kind of just, we also have to remember that an evaluation is not like just something we go through the motions for, like we do the evaluation to get all this information so that it can inform our therapy. Moving forward, going back to the question that I just kind of alluded to, for students who have difficulty with verbal expression, or maybe even those who AAC is not quite an option, at least not right now during your evaluation, have you gotten creative in other ways to kind of get some information from the student? Or, if not, what other means do you use?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah, if, ideally, you know, if, whenever possible, you know, AAC should be prioritized, like, even for me, like above ot because, like, communication is the foundation for everything. And for me, it's always thinking about, like, before even consider trying to do, you know, an interview with that student. You know how I always think in the back of my head, how can I help support the student to lead a self determined life? And for me, it's less about having that life look like many other people's lives, or what I think play should look like, what fine motor skill participation should look like, what participation or phi Ed should look like, really like, just by even observing the student. And you know, if you can a couple different parts of the day, depending on feedback from teachers and stuff or from the team, you know, what excites the student? What are they most interested? And then how can you, as the OT advocate in a sustainable way? Because you can't always advocate loud, because you'll burn yourself out, or maybe people will mistrust you, like you have to, you know, play it how you need to play within the system. Can you help have these conversations with team members about, if you see a goal that's written about, oh, yeah, the student is to write with, you know, paper, pencil, you know, four sentences, you know, and it's like, well, how functional is that for that student? Is that meaningful participation to that student? What if we showed them a computer and we had, like, Google, read and write up, or, you know, another form of at or even, like a game, like, are they just even visually more excited by that? You know what I mean? Like, even just by observing, by seeing what students choose, we can probably get a good idea of what we think the student might prioritize, even if they can't use, like verbal speech to communicate that, but they are communicating in a way. By, you know, been choosing between those two kind of activities. But what I will say, I really love to use. It just came out of the summertime. It's called the my sensory experiences tool by Autism Queensland. It just came out in Australia over the summertime. It is my new favorite sensory tool. It's across the lifespan. And what's really beautiful about it is that not only did autism, Queensland invite autistic individuals to help create the tool, it really endorses and promotes stemming. So this tool uses visuals. So you basically there's like three parts to this, this tool, the first part is, and it doesn't even get into the whole like, sensory discriminate, discrimination, sensory modulation. Like, because for many of us under diversion, like, I don't care what my sensory modulation or sensory discrimination is, it's more about what sensory experiences do I love, what sensory experiences do I hate what sensory experiences influence my ability to participate throughout my day? And then, how can I accommodate myself or advocate for what I need? Or how can I help cope with that as I as needed, depending on the activity? And so, like the mindset basically has pictures of all these different sensory experiences in the student that an individual. Can they sort these pictures into, like, a love, hate, neutral, and you can adapt it however you want. And so you can get an idea of from their person, like, literally from their perspective, what are sensory experiences that they love and they hate? And you can, like, adapt it to make it more complex, depending on the individuals, like, level, like, okay, out of these experiences, which ones most impact, impact your not your day. The second step is stemming. So it goes through different pictures of common forms of stemming, and the individual can, like, literally, pick these pictures and say and these larger cards, like, I do do this a lot, or I don't do this a lot. And there's opportunities for individuals to share other forms of stimming that they don't see, like by writing in a post a note, or, you know, other forms like that, but there's a category called stemming, which I think is so baller. And then the third category is interoception, but it all has pictures. There's no communication. There's no verbal communication necessary to complete the assessment tool.
Jayson Davies
That's great. I have not picked that one up yet. I will have to look into that one. Brand New Zealand. All right, very cool. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I'll get on top of that one.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Oh, it's okay.
Jayson Davies
All right, I can't move on from this section. This section from asking you a few examples of other assessments, you mentioned this one, yes, but are there other tools that you just want to list off? A few don't even feel like you have to go into all the details, but.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
So for me, especially for middle school and above that, it's and I think out of the few that I thought about, only one of was created by an OT was by OTs. The my set was, I think, was the only one that was actually created by OTs. The my sensor experiences tool. The next one is the camouflaging autistic traits questionnaire, the cat Q, no pictures, but it's an assessment tool, very simple checklist to help the student identify to what intensity are they experiencing. Masking at school. If you want to try for younger kids, my go to, if I have the time and the energy is all kind of use portions of autism level ups, the masking regulator. It's not it wasn't created as like an assessment tool, but it was created in a way that you can use it to kind of help maybe gage what level of masking maybe like an elementary school student is experiencing, like third grade and younger, the Dynamic Assessment of social emotional learning. It's a fantastic student interview. There's also a parent, caregiver and teacher. Questionnaire forms are with it, but assesses self advocacy skills, social participation and also a little bit of goal setting to prioritize with the student, the self advocacy plan or the strengths based interview protocol from strange basic collect, strength space collective are phenomenal. I That's like my primary goal setting tool. I use, try to use all of it when I can. But if I feel like I only have, like, a few minutes, I'll just use portions. I also love to use the student subjective well being questionnaire, another one that I've adapted for even like younger kids, to kind of for them to kind of share their overall well being at school. So those are primarily, like mental health, SEL social, emotional learning assessment tools. But like for fine motor, I don't use the bot. I don't use the Peabody. Primarily, what I do is, depending on what grade level they're in, I observe them complete a handwriting assessment, like a handwriting task that's in line with what they typically do in the classroom, try to observe them doing it in the classroom, because that's like their real world is their classroom. And then I'll kind of explore at with them, if they're even interested, what that would be like if they're really young. I do like to use portions of the of the shootles School fine motor assessment, yeah. But again, I don't use it as a way of like comparing them to norms. It's more of like, hey, which tasks did they observe engagement and joy in? And then how can we prioritize like, those tasks within, like, early childhood and all that?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. Now you said you haven't used a standardized assessment tool in a long time, and just a quick follow to that then is, have you ever had anyone push back against that when you're reporting your evaluation, whether it be a parent, school psychologist, case carrier?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
I have been, honestly, very lucky so my husband. So my husband and I, we work for the same small town, rural district in town, and even though it is very rural, I have been so lucky with the amount of support I've been getting. I think, if anything, people have been excited about this. Literally, just had a meeting with our special education director, our one of our psychologists and one of our evaluators, who does a lot of the academic evaluation stuff, because they, you know, had had questions about not the sped direct. Sped director was very supportive of all this. Like this is, like, the real data. Like this is the data that we really need. Like, our evaluations shouldn't 1% of them should be about determining eligibility. The rest of them should be about determining how can we best support the student on their. Terms, like, I'm so freaking blessed to be in this district. And if anything, like, the psychologist love him to death. He was, he was very much he loved this stuff. Like, I've never thought about ot helping gathering data on SEL portions or the well being portions of the of the eval. Like, this is mind blowing to me. And And if anything, I've, I've, I've only have gotten like, you know, from colleagues, like, wow. Like, this is such juicy, beautiful data to that helps me see a student differently, or helps affirm, like, caregivers and family members like, Wow. Thank you for, like, really seeing my child. Because even though they don't have scores, it still is incredibly useful. If not, I think it's more useful than a score, like what the student is saying environmental supports and barriers, like with their hopes and dreams, and you can still use this data to help determine eligibility, like I've had people use my information from the mindset or information from the dasl to help get, help a student get actually eligibility, because the sunrise scores did not help them get that eligibility, if that makes sense, because you can waive and you can, I forget what it's called, oh, I forget the official legal phrasing. But if they don't reach the criteria for, like, the autism, educational disability criteria, or whatever, like, you can forget what the term is, but you can wave it and use other subjective data to help reason why they should get that criteria.
Jayson Davies
I totally understand what you think, what you're saying, and I don't know the name of it either, the official term.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
I just read it to the other day.
Jayson Davies
That is a great idea for anyone listening who comes across that situation, though, we'll have to, we'll have to get that up, but yeah. All right, let's go ahead and take one more quick break and we come back. We'll dive into the last segment of our wonderful interview with Braden. So be right back. All right, I was going to dive into IEP goals here, but you've talked a little bit about IEP goals and how you don't always write an IEP goal, more collaborative style of IEP goal writing with your colleagues, and so I think, for time's sake, we're going to move to applying anti ableist practices in therapy, because you've used that term a few times on this podcast, but we haven't really gotten into it. And what I'm talking about is, of course, ableism. And so I just want to hear from you a little bit some of the practices that you've implemented as a way to kind of combat this, this ableist practices within OT and other fields. I mean, we all talk about ABA oftentimes, but you've even mentioned within OT and with, even within the PEO peop model, it can apply there. So what have been some of your thoughts around this and some actions that you've taken?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah, so in case people don't know what ableism is, ableism is essentially this system, this mindset, this, I mean, really a system, essentially where we place value over really molds well with capitalism and racism and all that. But basically that it's this mindset that disabled people are less than than non disabled individuals. We place value on what people on how much someone can produce and and even if we don't think it, because ableism is so normalized in our society, we viewed certain ways of even participating in certain ways of being more than others. That's why in this article I'm trying to publish, I talk about neurodivergent occupations, because the way that we even just exist in the world sometimes is rebellious, and it's trying to be reduced or changed to be more neuro normative. And so anti ableism is this idea of trying to dismantle ableism. It requires action. And so in the schools that can look like so many different ways, I do talk about, if anybody's even open, who even thinks that maybe they are really affirming to always take it's called the assessment of individual ableism. Assessment of individual ableism by bridges learning system. It's a Google it. It's free. It's a really great assessment toolkit to kind of gage where you're at when it comes to ableism. And before I dive into the approaches, I do want to share, like ally ship, like being an ally. It's, it's, it's not like you read one article and you maybe change one thing for a week and now you're affirming. It's a lifelong journey. And it's, it's going to be hard, and that's totally okay. It's, it's more than a shift in mindset. It's a it's a lifelong commitment to learning, to unlearning, to growth and being anti ableist. It's it's challenging because it it asks us to question and to undo much of what we've been taught and what we've always known. It's not a linear path, and it really requires patience and reflection, but above all, like Grace for yourself, like I really love that we're doing this for. Podcast Jayson, like, it's just really about being okay with, like, knowing you're not gonna always get it right, but like, you're continuing to to, like, do the journey anyway. Like, that's the beautiful part about being an ally. It's, it's grappling with the fact, with the discomfort of potentially, and you likely will making a mistake or saying the wrong thing, but understanding that we make mistakes along the journey, but you're continuing to engage in the process of being an ally, regardless of that fear of making a mistake. And that's the beauty of ally shift. So if you do make mistakes, which you likely will, even as a neurodivergent person, to other communities, being an ally that I'm not a part of, like, I make mistakes all the time, and that's okay, but when we really think about like neurodiversity affirming practices or anti ableist practices in the school. And so they're supporting, about, like, supporting neurodivergent ways of learning and being rather than trying to fix and so actually, like, one of my favorite ways to be anti ableist is to help, like, I've actually have had conversations IEP conversations about how, like, traditional forms of written expression, such as handwriting, are neurotypical occupations. They are not neurodivergent occupations. And I even, I've even, I literally have said those words in IEP meeting, and we've had 10 minute conversations about it, because families keep on asking, like, tell me more about that. Like, what do you mean? And it's been like, eye opening for them. Like, yeah. Like, your child does not need to know how to how to share their thoughts using pencil and paper. Like, that's not a functional skill anymore. You don't, they don't need to do that. Like, it's like this. It's amazing. There's all sorts of ways. I mean, if I am working on emotional regulation, like I am working on creating an energy meter, it's my favorite alternative to zones with the client, we are going through fidget resources or regulatory tool resources, where the student gets to kind of explore different tools, and they get to decide what which tools work best for them, versus myself thinking what works best for them, or a teacher saying, Oh yeah, they won't do they don't do well with that. Don't like, don't provide that. Like, it's no, I, I center the students voice. It's avoiding, like, really avoiding any traditional, any behavioral approaches, and really fostering instead, like, an interoception based approach, like, you're being really curious about behave like any behaviors or emotional expressions with open curiosity. It's sifting it from trying to change the child but more about or changing the student, to changing the environment. So it's like switching the language of like, low and high functioning individual to whether or not our environments are low or high functioning, from the wonderful words of Christy Patton, like, like really directing the work to the environments and really promoting authentic selves. And so my favorite resources, if anybody's interested in any trainings, are any, just any free resources, autism level up. It's fantastic for anything energy regulation related, learn, play thrive. Podcasts are on their trainings are not free, but fantastic for anything strengths based related OTs, for neurodiversity, by Greg and Jacob Heller, both neurodivergent OTs, they have teachers pay teacher resources on communication and regulation and just autonomy. And then, of course, Kelly Mahler, interoception curriculum is really fantastic, but a lot of it is just framing it so like, you're really supporting the individual to be the most authentic selves, and you're trying to change the environment like while also trying to help provide confidence and empower the student to be able to advocate for what they need and to help them realize that they don't need to change who they are. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. I love everything that you're talking about, man, the one or two of the things that I was thinking about oftentimes when it oftentimes when it comes to ableist practices within the school setting that I think we're just so accustomed to that we don't even question often is the idea of our special day or self contained classes, and how we have students sitting in these classes for all day long, away from their peers. Some of the other things that I've thought about, and probably others listening have had these same thoughts in an IEP meeting is when you hear about a student or a parent more so than a student potentially complaining about another child in the classroom, as though their child has more of a right to an education than a another student who might be in the general education classroom or even in another special education classroom, self contained classroom, whatever it might be. And I think it, just like you said, it's a lot of unlearning, a lot of unlearning and relearning. And even with IDA, Ida had this idea of, you know, getting kids back to the least restrictive environment. But things are not perfect yet. And those are, there's a lot of things that we. Still, still will need to change two last questions for you within your school based ot practice. You know it sounds like you are in a wonderful place to be in from your background within really trying to support neurodivergent people, all people, anti ableist, all that. What's still one thing within your school district that you really want to change? What's one thing that still, you know, pie in the sky I want to change? It's nothing perfect. So what's one thing you want to wear?
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yeah? Oh yeah, no. I mean, there's always learning opportunities everywhere. I'm just grateful with all those things that I mentioned that I don't have to fight super hard for. I mean, just at my school, but at all schools, I would eradicate and get rid of all FBAs positive behavior support plans and instead, and I'm trying to, like, slowly, do that with the Y toolkit. And have you heard of the Y toolkit before you were just, oh my gosh, that's incredible. It's created by an autistic speech therapist, and it's literally created to be a neurodiversity affirming and trauma informed alternative to the FBA Pro to FBA because it focuses on its internal experiences and student voice because of how we do our FBAs and positive behavior support plans. It relies on subjective views of what of intentionality behind behaviors, and we make assumptions about students, and we oftentimes even within these regulation plans, students, student voices are never, ever considered or even asked. It's all based off of ableist data we get from evals, or if it's a standalone FBA, I mean just ableist data from assessment tools and observation or ableist observations. And what I've been doing because trying to get rid of the FBA, because I think we are learning and real like, like I'm learning, and realizing that the y toolkit is a legal alternative, especially in Minnesota, to the FBA, it's a it's a whole system override, and that takes time. It takes resources. It takes money. And so what I've been doing as like a baby step, is before really engaging in these huge system levels conversations with admin, like, Yeah, we should. We should not be doing this. We should be doing this instead. Here's why. What I've been doing is I have been advocating to any time the team meets about what a student that I support and they're meeting to talk about the behavior plan or talk about creating a behavior plan, I always ask to be a part of those conversations, because then that way, I get to help minimize the harm of the FBA and the positive behavior support plan, while also, in a way, trying to, maybe in like, quick little conversations, or even at this meeting, trying to change minds about how to view behavior. And I incorporate aspects of the of the Y toolkit that way, by offering alternatives and stuff like that. So actually, what's been really great is that now this year if we know that we're going to be creating an FBA for a student, I've been a part of, been a part of, like, the eval, and I've been a part of helping to create the FBA. Obviously, not to create the FBA for it to be an FBA, but helping to reduce and minimize harm. And so, like, I use different assessment tools, trauma informed assessment tools. I interview the student, and so we get to these. Use that data help minimize the harm of the FBAs. But that's like the big, big, big kahuna hope of dream.
Jayson Davies
Hey, you got to have a dream in order to make progress. So for everyone listening, that's at supportable solutions.com. We'll be sure to add Thank you, a link to that as well the Y toolkit. Very cool. And then last question, kind of a similar in similar vein, what is one research study out there that does not exist, that you wish did research study would be like the results, like, if there was, yeah.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Well, if I had it my way. So actually, it's too are you, oh, are you asking, like, for me, like, what I would love the research to be on, or, ideally, what, like?
Jayson Davies
I'll rephrase it, yeah, no, no, no, not what it'll look like. No. So one last question, kind of like a pie in the sky, something that you could change at your school. What is one research that you wish existed that you could just pull up at any time to explain to a parent to something or explain to a teacher to something. What is one research that you just wish already existed? You didn't have to think about it. You could pull it up anytime.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Honestly, it's also just actually a dream of mine that I would love to be able to do once life slows down a tiny bit, is doing a study where we invite, maybe not just neurodivergent adults, but neurodivergent students, like in public education, and we invite them to share what neurodivergent occupational participation means to them. So like, what does learning look like for you? What. Does participating in gym class look like for you? What does What does eating lunch look like for you? Getting homework done? What does that look like for you? And kind of getting a really good, beautiful idea of really, how diverse we really, truly engage in the world. Like, how we engage in the world is so beautifully diverse and, like, it's humongous, and yet we only focus on this tiny, tiny sliver way of being as the only, like, primary way of like, learning and being a student, so that actually research today, that I actually would love to try to do in the next like, begin to conceptualize the next couple in the next year or so. Like, really, like, what does learning look like for you and not like what we think learning should look like for you? If that makes sense.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely, absolutely. I think there's no matter how many studies are out there that try to explain the occupations of individuals, I always find myself wanting more and looking for more especially as the world changes. And I mean, all the research out there about child development seems so old now, like life has changed so much, and some of it just seems so old and outdated. And so any new information that we can get about about just kind of the perceptions of individuals. And I think for a long time, as you kind of already alluded to earlier, a lot of the old research was more about like looking at very, to a degree, very hard skills and skills that were perceived as important, not necessarily what even typical developing kids really felt as important, let alone neurodivergent students feeling what is important. So, yeah, I love that. I'm sure you'll make that happen in the I'll give it five years, it'll be done.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Oh, goodness, well, maybe I'll enter academia by then. I have no idea. I don't even know if I want to be done anymore. We'll see. But.
Jayson Davies
Okay, I don't blame you, man. Hey, school based OT is a great place to be, and honestly, I'm sure your district loves having you be a part of the team, and hope you never, never leave unless I don't know something amazing happens for you. But anyways, Brian, as we wrap up here, I do want to give you one opportunity just to kind of share where people can go to learn more about you and more about everything you're doing.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Yes, oh my gosh, yeah. So kind of what wonderful Jayson has shared. I do have a website called neurodivergent Nexus. You can reach it at WWW dot neurodivergent nexus.com, and it's everything I have on there is free, the model resources that I've created. It's all meant to be open access. I don't want there to be any financial barriers, so there's resources on there. I do also. I have an Instagram at Brighton Carlson under storm giving. But next March, holy buckets. I'm the editor of a neurodiverse, affirming ot book that'll be coming out in the spring with over like 50 collaborate, collaborators and co authors from around the world, even non speaking individuals, super pumped about it. But it's called neurodiversity, affirming, occupational therapy, empowering, empowering approaches to foster neurodivergent participation. And so they'll be through Jennifer Kingsley publishers, but that'll be in March of 2026 but that is me.
Jayson Davies
March of 2026 it'll be here before you know it, man, and we're all gonna be holding up her book, and that's gracious. I'm excited for it. I'm excited that's gonna be a lot of a lot of good stuff there. Like you said, a lot of people come in together to collaborate to make that possible. And so glad that you were the one that they reached out to to kind of put this together. It's gonna be awesome. And I can't wait. Can't Wait, man, all righty, well, we are done for today. Thank you, Brian. Thank you everyone for tuning in and yes, be sure to go check out neurodivergent nexus.com be sure to find Brian on Instagram. Follow him everywhere, because, trust me, you will, you will enjoy yourself. So Brian, thanks again, and we'll definitely keep in touch.
Bryden Carlson-Giving
Thank you, Jason. This was, this was a joy. Thank you. Thank you.
Jayson Davies
All right. And that wraps up episode 178 of the OT school house podcast. And of course, I want to give Brighton a huge thank you for joining us and sharing all things powerful insights with his Empower model, from unpacking ableism and traditional evaluation tools to reframing how we can write IEP goals and define student success. Brydon is challenging us in the best possible way to be more Critically Reflective and more deeply affirming in how we support neurodivergent students, be sure to check out his website over at neurodivergent nexus.com for free resources and a full breakdown of the Empower model. We'll be sure to link to that if you can't figure out how to spell it, but we'll have that in the show notes for you. And there are tons of visuals over there that, trust me, you will appreciate it. I think he said this in the podcast. He actually. Does the artwork for all of his like models, which is just amazing. So be sure to check that out. You can also find some of his artwork and more over on Instagram at Brian Carlson underscore giving, where he posts a bunch of tips and different advocacy updates and just everything amazing. Don't forget his book neurodiversity affirming ot will be out in March of 2026 excited for that. I will be picking it up, and I hope you will as well. If this episode inspired you or got you thinking differently about your own practice, please consider sharing it with your favorite bestie and leave a quick review on the platform of your choice, whether that's Spotify Apple podcast or anywhere else, it really helps us to grow the show. Spread the word about amazing occupational therapy practice within the school setting. Thanks for being here. Really appreciate it, and we'll see you next time on the OT school house podcast.
Amazing Narrator
Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed.
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