OTS 127: Changing the Culture: Effective Approaches to Inclusion
- Jayson Davies
- Jun 26, 2023
- 2 min read
Updated: Jul 17, 2024
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 127 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
Have you ever wondered how to make your school more inclusive?
On this episode, Jenna Rufo, Ed.D., is here to discuss post-pandemic special education. She shares her philosophy on education and inclusion, offering strategies to get administrators on board with an inclusive approach. She discusses some positive outcomes of virtual learning during the pandemic, including increased collaboration among teachers and parents and a greater understanding of individual student needs.
Tune in to this episode for information on creating more inclusive schools and supporting all students!
Listen now to learn the following objectives:
Learners will identify the definition of inclusion and the importance of recognizing disability as a form of diversity
Learners will identify how OTPs can support and provide services to all students through collaboration between special and general educators
Learners will identify how the pandemic allowed for a shift in perspective with flexibility and understanding of students’ needs
Guest(s) Bio
Dr. Jenna Mancini Rufo is an educational consultant and the founder and CEO of Empower ED School Solutions, a consulting firm specializing in special education and inclusion.
Dr. Rufo currently provides professional development on inclusive practices and related topics to school districts, organizations, and families in 15 states and Australia.
She is the co-author of Reimagining Special Education: Using Inclusion As a Framework To Build Equity and Support All Students, and The Way to Inclusion: Creating Schools Where Every Student Belongs.
Prior to her work as a consultant, Dr. Rufo served as a special education teacher, inclusion facilitator, policy specialist for the Massachusetts Department of Education, Special Education Director, and Assistant Superintendent.
She was inspired to enter the field of education by her sister Nina, who has multiple disabilities and complex support needs. Dr. Rufo views education as her calling and is passionate about creating an equitable school system for ALL learners.
Quotes
“Inclusion is a philosophy, and it's a practice…looking at students for their strengths, rather than their deficits”.
-Jenna Rufo, Ed.D.
“That system of sorting and labeling really pigeonholes students from a very young age”.
-Jenna Rufo, Ed.D.
“We really have to look at how do we reshape our instruction, utilizing principles of universal design, so that we're accounting for variability in student learning profiles and giving them opportunities to demonstrate their knowledge”
-Jenna Rufo, Ed.D.
“We can support teachers without necessarily having an IEP in place. One of the ways to do that is through in services, or even an observation of the classroom”
-Jayson Davies, MA, OTR/L
Resources
Episode Transcript
Expand to view the full episode transcript.
Amazing Narrator
Hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here's your host Jayson Davies. Class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Hello and welcome back for episode 127 of the OTs schoolhouse podcast. Thank you so much for listening in today. I really appreciate you being here. As always, I am your host Jayson Davies. And today I am thrilled to be joined by a very special guest, Jenna Ruffo. And this episode, Jenna and I dive into the important topic of collaboration between OT practitioners and teachers in creating inclusive classrooms for students with disabilities. Jenna brings a wealth of experience to the conversation as a teacher, school administrator, and an educational consultant who has worked closely with OTs throughout her career. She is also the co author of the book reimagining Special Education inclusivity as a framework, which we will link to in the show notes for you, Jen and I explore practical strategies for building stronger partnerships between these two professions and overcoming common challenges like time constraints, technology barriers, and staff who are resistant to change. We also discuss how the COVID 19 pandemic has impacted special education services and supports for students with disabilities, and how OTPs and teachers can adapt to these changes and maybe even build upon them. So whether you're inexperienced OTP or if you're just starting out in your school based OT career, this conversation is sure to provide valuable insights and inspiration for you and your practice. So sit back, relax, and let's dive in. Jenna, welcome to the OT, schoolhouse podcast. How are you doing today?
Jenna Rufo
I'm great. Thanks so much, Jayson. I'm happy to be here today with you.
Yeah, I'm excited. You know, on the OT school health podcast, we typically talk to other occupational therapy providers. And so I'm excited to have you on today because you are not an OT. So I'm gonna give you a moment. Yeah, I'm gonna give you a moment to just going to share a little bit about how you fit into the world of education.
Jenna Rufo
Sure. So I have been in the education field for over 20 years now. I started my career as an inclusion facilitator at a public middle school in Massachusetts. And looking back on that experience, I think that it really shaped my whole philosophy and approach throughout my career. I say it was kind of like the Candyland of inclusion. And I didn't realize it at the time, because it was my first job out of school. So I started there, I also worked as a Special Ed planning and policy specialist for the Massachusetts Department of Education. Before I moved back to the Philadelphia area, which is where I'm from. And when I moved back to Philadelphia, I was a little surprised that some of the practices for special education that I wasn't accustomed to having been teaching in Massachusetts, were more of a more exclusionary practices. So students were pulled out to separate settings. So I taught for a few more years here. And then I thought, You know what, I think I know a better way to do this. And I decided to pursue my administrative certification. I served as a special ed director and an assistant superintendent, up until a few years ago when I started my own business, empower ed school solutions. And now I am working with 15 different States and Australia on helping them to create more inclusive schools for students with disabilities.
Jayson Davies
Well, that is a lot and quite amazing that you decided to go that inclusion route.
Jenna Rufo
Yeah, it's definitely a passion of mine. And I also have an adult sibling who has disabilities. And so that I think really shaped my path in special education, you know, wanting to go into the field. And then that first work experience being an inclusive one just really set the tone for my work and my passion.
Jayson Davies
That is quite awesome. And, you know, something you resin or something that you said that resonated with me was that you were in a candy land of inclusion. And you didn't even know that because, you know, a lot of us, we only know what we've experienced. And it's not until you go through maybe 234 jobs before you realize that everything is not what it was at your previous placement. I know I've experienced that. I'm sure other OTs and and teachers have as well. So thank you for sharing a little bit about that.
Jenna Rufo
Yeah, definitely.
Jayson Davies
All right. So let's go ahead. We are diving a little bit into your book today that you and Julie caston wrote in it's called reimagining special education using inclusion as a framework to build equity and support all students. And so I guess this will kind of build on that background you just shared with us but I would love to know What drove you and Julie to actually start working on this book or to publish this book.
Jenna Rufo
So during the COVID 19 pandemic, so during those first six months or so, I guess, when people were at home, I was actually still an assistant superintendent at the time, I just thought, this is really an opportunity for us to pause and reevaluate what we're doing. Because the truth is that a lot of the practices that we've engaged in for special education and for education as a whole haven't worked for a lot of students for a long time. And I think what we saw with the pandemic, when things went online, was things that traditional model really wasn't working. And now that we are back in schools and coming out of the pandemic, it's still not working. So I think that we had this opportunity, I feel like for in a lot of places, it was a missed opportunity to really rethink and reshape the way that we're doing things to better meet the needs of all students. So rather than clinging on to these old ways of doing things, we need to really think about, is there a better way? And how do we meet the needs of more students?
Yeah, and I totally agree, there was so much change during COVID-19, no matter what district you're in, and no matter when you came back to more in person services, and education, you know, things were very different for a lot of us. Now, you talk about that opportunity to make things better. But let's kind of take that step back then before COVID-19, what do you feel like were some of those things that that weren't helping our students that you kind of wanted to dive into with this book.
Jenna Rufo
So I think that we've had this history of education in our country where we sort and label students, we say you have a disability. So you get special ed services, and you go here, or you are an English language learner, you need to learn English, you're going to work with this teacher, or you're really smart. So you get to do these fun and exciting things with the gifted teacher. And that system of sorting and labeling really pigeonhole students from a very young age. And historically, we have had this model of education, it's been referred to as a factory model, which was great in the industrial age, when people were preparing to go to factories and line up at the sound of a whistle, just like our kids line up at the sound of a bell, and where uniformity and sameness was prized. And now that's just not the world we live in. But our educational practices haven't caught up. So I think that there is the opportunity to really look at things for how can we better prepare our students for a world that is more diverse for working with other individuals who have different strengths and needs. And we're really looking at how we can create new knowledge and understanding rather than just a model where we're, you know, teacher standing, and delivering students are receivers of information. Because that's, you know, we have information at our fingertips now. So it's not something that that we need to continue doing engaging in that practice.
Absolutely. I mean, we have Google for one, and now we have aI coming out where you can just ask a question, and it'll give you an answer right or wrong, it thinks it's right, but it'll just give you an answer. Right? So the world is definitely no longer just a factory. And, you know, America, especially America has really become a lot of services. And you know, our expertise is valued. But so is our ability to find the knowledge that we don't have. And I think that is just an important skill that we need to ingrain into our students. So yeah. All right. So we before COVID, and probably still today, there was a lot of grouping students by their skills, as you mentioned, like gifted students with gifted students, students in special education and special education. As we dove into COVID. You know, everyone went online. What were some of the things that you saw that maybe gave you some, some glimmers of hope? What were things that happened during during that pandemic time?
Jenna Rufo
I think some things that it might actually seem counterintuitive, but I heard from some teachers who said, believe it or not, at the beginning of the pandemic, we were able to communicate and collaborate more than we had in person, because there was this real need to share resources to make sure that everyone was kind of on the same page in terms of how they were delivering online or virtual instruction. And I think that there were some really exciting things that came out of that in terms of teachers being able to have some of that time where it was built in. So certainly some districts may not have had that experience. But I did hear that from a number of teachers that they appreciated that opportunity to collaborate and the time that they were that was dedicated. I think another thing that was really promising that I heard from parents was that they felt more a part of the process. And I had one parent who told me that she actually prefers the virtual IEP meetings, and still wants to engage virtually first, because it's better for her with scheduling. But also, she said it felt less intimidating. So she wasn't going into this room filled with 10 professionals that are already seated at the table, feeling like the meetings already started without her. So I think that that was really big, and then developing those relationships between families and teachers, because teachers had to be a little more involved in terms of knowing what's going on at home, what level of support students have or don't have, because of the types of jobs their families hold, and trying to manage all of that. And I think finally, another thing that was really promising was this idea of flexibility that we offered students, the reality is that we have always had students who needed that flexibility because of home situations, or personal things or ability. And we haven't always been as apt to provide that. And I think during the pandemic, people realize that there was a way that we could give flexibility to students that, you know, was acceptable, and that it wasn't the be all and end all if homework didn't get in the next day. So really looking at things from a slightly different ones.
Yeah, and if I can just add a little bit from my own perspective, when I was going through it as an occupational therapist, you know, you talked about two points that parent interaction and flexibility, those were both huge for me. I mean, I would interact with parents maybe once a year, right at the IEP as an OT, I'm sure special education teachers, you know, maybe get a little bit more than once a year, you know, when the kids are getting picked up or whatnot. But as an OT, or even a special education teacher, we were having weekly contact with that parent via zoom. Now, I want to kind of preface that with that wasn't the case for every student, right, we had students who their parents were working 24/7, during the pandemic, and maybe we were talking to an older sibling, or whoever it might have been, we also had, we also had teachers, or sorry, we also had students, let's be honest, that didn't get a whole lot of education during the pandemic, because they couldn't sit in front of a computer, they didn't have a computer, they didn't have internet access, whatever it might be. They, they definitely struggled, not every student did grade. But from my perspective, it was nice, because yeah, we were able to talk with parents for most of our students. And then the flexibility. I agree, again, because I can either do a one on one session with a student, a collaborative session with a student and the teacher, or the parent too. But I was also able to create videos that I could send to the parents, and they can kind of do stuff on their own with the with the students. And I know that that was appreciated as well. Any any good stories that you have, from some of your teachers, just kind of going out on a limb and doing something extra special.
Jenna Rufo
I think just again, the flexibility piece, and the more personal touches, which sounds silly, right? So it sounds like how could you be more personal over a computer. And I think for some teachers, I'm thinking of one in particular, a high school English teacher, who said that it was really an opportunity for him to provide some more specific feedback and check in with kids. And they used the Google Google comments to kind of write back and forth on grading essays. So there were some things It wasn't all bad. I know, it was extremely challenging for many, many people, especially our kids who have disabilities, who, as you had mentioned, might not have been able to sit still, for whom those services didn't translate well online. But there were some some areas where we could look to as Okay, these were some promising practices, that maybe we can take that back and make things better.
Now, let's kind of kind of go back into the I guess, go back, but also move forward. Talking about that inclusion model. You talked a little bit earlier again, about kind of the segregation of students by ability, if we can call it that. For the sake of this podcast, how do we want to find inclusivity and an inclusive model? I know some people talk about just a student being in a classroom, that alone is inclusive versus you know, some other people want to say no, that's not inclusive, because, you know, unless you're putting the student in context within that classroom, it's not really inclusive. You can't just up and move a kid into a classroom and call it inclusivity. So for you when you're talking about inclusion, what what does that mean?
Jenna Rufo
That's a great question, and I think that a lot have people come to this with different ideas about what it means. So it's helpful to put it in context. To me, I think inclusion is a philosophy, and it's a practice. So the philosophy piece is the idea that all students belong, that everyone benefits that all students can rise to high expectations and are part of that community. So that's our big picture idea. In practice, as I mentioned, and with my co author, Julie in our book, in practice, there's several different things that kind of coalesce to create inclusion. So the first one that we talk about is this idea of restoring students. So looking at students for their strengths, rather than their deficits. And rather than blaming or saying, a student isn't successful, because of the behavior because of the disability, we first look to what is the barrier in the environment, rather than quote unquote, the problem in the child? So really shifting that perspective? By actively looking at how do we reduce barriers? How do we tell a new story about students? It involves redesigning instruction and assessment. So if we continue to operate in that factory model that I talked about, where Stand and Deliver teachers at the front teacher is imparting their knowledge on students, that is really just not going to work. And I think that that's why sometimes people have a hard time with the idea of inclusion, because they're imagining a student being included in the system as it might currently exist, rather than what it could be. So we really have to look at how do we reshape our instruction, utilizing principles of universal design, so that we're accounting for variability in student learning profiles, and giving them opportunities to demonstrate their knowledge, other things to think about our restructuring our intervention and enrichment, so that instead of making the receipt of service contingent on being pulled out of the classroom, we provide services to all students through really strategic scheduling, and structures that support that collaboration between special educators, general educators, and then related service providers. And then I think it's also about looking at disability as a form of diversity. And just recognizing that a student's disability is part of who they are, it's nothing that they need to be ashamed of, it's nothing that we need to fix. It's something that just makes them unique and special, and their own individual.
Yeah, and I love it, you kind of just outlined a little bit about where we're gonna go today. And this is all more in your book. So everyone, if you like, just love the outline that Jenna just gave, be sure to grab the book. Before we dive into each of those topics just a little bit further. Let's talk about some of the positive impacts that you did see, coming out of the COVID 19 pandemic, as people did come back on campus, you mentioned a few of the positives earlier about distance learning. But have you seen some of that actually maintain as we have now come back to more on person or in person learning.
Jenna Rufo
I think that where it's been successful, is where schools have realized that that collaborative approach of blending resources, breaking down those silos between Special Ed and general ed, keeping the related service providers over here doing something separate, where that collaboration has continued, is where I think it has been most successful. Because what I have heard, unfortunately, in a lot of the districts and schools that I work in is, oh my gosh, these kids coming out of the pandemic, and virtual learning, their behavior is out of control. And, you know, they don't know how to manage their work, or sit still or do all of these things. So really, the solution then is, we have to figure out how to provide more of those supports in general education, because those challenges are not limited to our students with disabilities. And if we have special education as our only prescription for support to address those problems, and we're not gonna have anybody left in general, Ed, we're just going to take everybody out, because everybody has these challenges now.
Yeah. And a moment ago, you mentioned a lot about rethinking what the classroom looks like, what the environment what the tasks look like. And I really liked that you're putting an emphasis on that collaboration, because personally, I've been trying to think whether or not you're in a state that has common core or not, I've been trying to think about how OT can be more embedded within that general education, common core curriculum. And one thing that is very common right now is differentiation of instruction. And when teachers have students with a disability in their classroom, they may not know how to differentiate, they mean, they may need help from potentially like the occupational therapist, and understanding how to graded tasks up or down or to even just better understand the disability of their students so that they can do that. So, you know, I meant to ask you earlier, have you had experiences with occupational therapist?
Jenna Rufo
Yes, in inclusive settings, or just in general?
Yeah, I mean, yeah. So, yeah, I would love to hear, I would love to hear more just about your interactions with occupational therapy providers, and how that I mean, if you have a story to share, that'd be great. But just your interaction with inclusion, if you haven't.
Jenna Rufo
Yeah, so I've worked with some amazing occupational therapists over the years, one of whom I actually reached out to prior to our interview today, because I said, you know, I'm having this podcast interview, I want to make sure that I don't miss anything really important for OT, and Kristin Posner's her name, I'm gonna give her a shout out. She's amazing. And really, I think, what I learned a lot from her in my role, so when I was a special ed director working with her, she always had a very inclusive approach. And recognize, too, that OT isn't just all about fine motor. So I think sometimes there's this misconception, probably mostly among non OTs, I think OTs generally recognize that this is, you know, something beyond just those those fine motor skills. But I think that their ability, as an OT to push into the class, to support with things like executive functioning, or self regulation, even in those early grades, some of those fine motor skills that are just part of the natural curriculum, I remember being in a kindergarten class once doing an observation. And the teacher was working on cutting with them. And I thought, Ah, this is such a missed opportunity, we could have had an OT here, you know, she could have helped all of these kids. And you know, since we're talking a lot about services post pandemic, I think another thing, that was definitely something that was of concern for me, I had a daughter who was in first grade, or in 2020, was that everything for her was touchscreen. So she didn't have a lot of those same skills with the cutting the coloring, the writing, the drawing, it was all moving her finger back and forth. And with my special ed background, that was a big concern for me. And I have really started thinking about, you know, all of those kids that lost out on some of that. So as we turn our transition back into school, I think those kids and second, third, fourth, fifth grade right now, they've missed a lot of that. And so our occupational therapists can be really valuable resources to support the development of those skills, and then also to support, you know, in those other areas that I had mentioned.
Yeah, and the two things that I've heard most from OTs, as well as teachers, in the areas that OTs typically addressed, is the handwriting, as you kind of mentioned, are the fine motor skills, because everything was online. And then the other side of it was the behavior. They write, students are coming back, they don't know how to be in a classroom of 2030 other kids, they were online, one to one with the computer, per se. And so that was the other side. And as occupational therapy providers, you mentioned, like executive functioning, that's an area that we can support, but also that collaboration with the teacher to understand behavior. And you know, the difference between maybe a student who is acting up out of, you know, compliance there or needing attention versus a student that might be acting up because the work is too hard, or they're just overstimulated by sensory stimuli in the classroom. So, yeah, it's pet collaboration for us. I think that's going to be the main takeaway from today's podcast is just that importance within collaboration. Yeah,
Jenna Rufo
and you had mentioned just that the behavioral issues coming back. And one of the things that I have seen a proliferation of recently is use of programs like zones of regulation, which zones is great. But I think that we have to take a step back and think, why do we have so many kids that are this dysregulated and instead of jumping right to the intervention of we need a separate program to support these students in managing, you know, their behaviors, their sensory dysregulation? Really looking at? Why is that behavior happening? Are there strategies that we could put in the classroom to prevent that behavior from occurring, to prevent them from getting to a place where Are they need zones. And an OT is someone that, again, really could help support that? Yeah,
yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's nice to have a nice clear cookie cutter program to implement into a classroom. But sometimes schools don't necessarily have that type of program and an occupational therapist or a speech therapist could also collaborate with is other providers can come in and support that teacher and developing a kind of a curriculum that's specific to that classroom that, you know, as for all the kids, it's not just for a subgroup of kids or, or one specific kids. So yeah. All right. Earlier, you mentioned restoring students. And when I was reading this through your book, it, it really caught my attention. Because, you know, there's so many criteria that a student can fit into for an IEP, and it kind of puts them into this little bubble. And then the other bubble is just general education. And so those are just like two very distinct, you know, opposite bubbles. But I want to ask you just to dive in a little bit more into restoring students and elaborate on that.
Jenna Rufo
Yeah, first, just to address what you said about there's so many ways a student could qualify, I say, in my trainings with school psychologists or administrators or teachers, once you start that referral process, it's kind of like you're going fishing, and you sit at the lake long enough with your fishing rod, you're gonna get a bite, right? So you're gonna find something in that student's profile, particularly if we are looking at some of those softer disability categories, like learning disability, like other health impairment for ADHD, emotional disability, there's a lot of criteria that really can be appear to be a disability, and it's not. So I think it really is important to, again, rethink what we're doing and how we're looking at students. And this idea of restoring students, we offer a framework for we call, I kind of call it flipping the script. So instead of saying, you know, Jenna is a student that calls out all the time she's running around the room? How could that be a positive, right? So how could calling out the positive, it's a student that's eager to share their thoughts, a student that's running around the room is someone who is active and wants to engage in more physical activities. And then rather than looking at that student, and saying, Well, we're gonna give you reminders to raise your hand or to stay in your seat, or we're going to give you a behavior chart where, you know, if you stay in your seat for so long, you're gonna get a smiley face, and then you get the iPad at the end of the day. We maybe we have to go there eventually. Right? But that's not our first step. So the first step is, let's look at the student for their strengths. And then let's see what are the barriers in the classroom that failed to capitalize on those strengths. So for a student who wants to share their thoughts, the barrier is having to sit still lots of teacher directed instruction, call and response activities, where the teacher poses a question she calls on one student at a time. So instead of doing that, instead of continuing to engage in the those practices, placing the problem on the child, we look at how can we shift the environment so that it is more conducive to what a student's strengths are? So for that student who calls out, we give them more opportunities to interact with their peers and with their teacher to share their thoughts verbally? And then I think, sometimes a misconception when people hear this is, oh, well, you know, does this just mean the kids do whatever they want, and we just have to change everything in our classroom? No. But I think there's also an element of direct and explicit teaching of the skills that you want to see. So rather than assuming that a child is going to come to your classroom, having already known the unwritten Social Code of school, we teach them those routines and procedures and practices that we want to see.
Yeah, and I guess that's kind of, you know, creating a story for the students not just restarting, but you're really helping them to create their story through that social education and, of course, the academics as well. Now, you kind of talked about as you're restoring a restoring our students, that's going to require a restoring of what education looks like. And, you know, education has both assessments as well as the education or intervention as you want to call it. And so how might if we restore our students, how might the assessments also be restored per se?
Jenna Rufo
Oh, assessments a good question. I think there's a lot of things that we could do. for assessment that are different approaches, of course, we have parameters that we have to live within with state tests. And, you know, we could talk about why things should be different. Well, it is what it is right now. Right? So, but within our classrooms, we can look at how we're using formative assessment. So the ongoing assessment, as well as summative assessment differently. So looking at things like rubrics for performance based tasks, or student conferences, and interviews and project based assessments, you know, there's a whole host of things that allow students to show their knowledge in different ways. And we tend to rely very heavily on paper and pencil, writing, sometimes on the verbal output as well. And certainly, if I am teaching a student how to write an essay, I'm going to focus on writing. But for other classrooms, where writing is not the end goal, where knowledge of a science concept or social studies concept is the end goal, there doesn't have to be just one narrow way to measure that student's learning because the writing can present as a barrier for that student. And if that's the only way we're assessing them, then we're not getting the full picture of what they truly know and understand.
Yeah, I love that I. And again, a lot of these, I don't want to say this. These are all things that are within schools. And when I hear what you're saying, you know, a lot of people might say, oh, yeah, the OT can do that. The OT can do that, though T can do, but it's not just the OT that can do these things. Now, obviously, we have an occupational therapy. listenership basis here. And so I'm speaking to them. And, you know, I want them to know that they can provide support to the teachers in these steps. And we don't necessarily have to have a student on an IEP in order to support a student like, or to support the teacher in this way, we can support teachers, without necessarily having an IEP in plays. One of the ways to do that is through like in services, or even, you know, an observation of the classroom with the teacher is up for it to then share potential strategies that the OT might see. If there's an OT out there that might want to be more helpful to, you know, an entire school or to a special education department and your experience as a director, what would you hope that an OT might come to you? And do you think that it would be helpful if an OT came to you and said, Hey, I want to do an in service on sensory or hey, I want to do an in service on handwriting, what would be helpful for you, for the OT to do, I guess, I
Jenna Rufo
would love that. And I think that I would love the initiative of someone coming to me and saying, I want to get this message out there. So I would welcome it and embrace it. And I think in terms of what will be helpful first, just offering that and coming to me and saying, I would like to provide the support for my colleagues, I think is huge. And then I think really just collaborating together on what does that vision for inclusive related services look like? Because sometimes, I think that there might be a misconception on the part of general educators, or maybe even administrators, that if an occupational therapist is providing inclusive in class supports that, you know, they're at the back table, working with someone on handwriting while the class is doing something entirely different. And that's not really what we're talking about. So that's that physical inclusion that you were discussing earlier. But that's not authentic, meaningful inclusion. So I would really want to work with the occupational therapists to talk about, what does this actually look like? And then how do we get that message out? How do we shift our instruction so that we can better support those services? And then with our administrative team, how do we schedule it so that when you're going into a general education classroom, your talents are being used to the maximum extent. So what I would hate to see happen, and what I know happens sometimes is that related service providers might be pushing into a classroom, they're scheduled for a certain time. And then last minute, something happens, teacher changes the lesson. And you know, they're reading something out loud, and then the related service providers just kind of standing there watching. So have to talk about those structural things to have. What does that look like when you're pushing in? And how do we make sure that what's supposed to happen is what's actually happening?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and I know there's a lot of RSP teachers or sai teachers, as they're sometimes called, that are doing that right. Like they don't pull out kids at all. They just you know, hop around from class to class all day, but that is super structured. It's very intentional, right? They're not just going into miscues class at 7am on a Monday and Miss T's class at 8am. Like it's very structured. They know when they're going in at 7am miscue is working specifically on the skills that the RSP teacher can support. And I think that that can happen with OT as well. And maybe it's not, you know, all the time, there are students who still need, you know, that small group or individual service. But there should be some time I think, for OTs and other related service providers to kind of do that, as you were talking about going into the classroom in a structured manner, when everyone's expecting it, right. You don't just knock on the door. Hey, I'm here for Johnny here to see him in the class. Right. But yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. Now, you brought back into the we've been staying within inclusion actually, inclusion, most people think of it as being beneficial for the students with disability. But how is it beneficial for all students?
Jenna Rufo
There's, so first I want to debunk the idea that it hurts the other kids, right, those mysterious other kids, meaning the high performing kids, there has been quite a bit of research that shows either positive or neutral effects on academic outcomes for general education students, or typically developing peers. So that's just simply not true. And I think what we do see and what the research also supports, is that when students are educated with their peers who have disabilities, there is greater understanding, acceptance, empathy. And I want to just point out, though, that our students without disabilities, they're not, our students with disabilities are not the only ones who benefit. So our students without disabilities, you know, if we don't have those children included, they're missing out on meeting some really amazing people. And I shared recently about my sister and her experience with schooling, so she was in a completely separate school, and people were really robbed of the gift that is her. So I think that if we really believe that all children can learn, All means all all is everyone, and everyone has something to contribute.
Yeah, and, you know, when we are pushing into a classroom, whether does an RSP teacher or SLP, whatever it might be, you know, yeah, we might be there for a select few students, but you don't have to, like turn your head away, when another student asks you for help, right? Like, all students can benefit from having an extra adult in the classroom, whether or not as an OT, a speech therapist, or whatever, you know, we can still provide support to all the students, not just the three or four students that have OT, quote, unquote, on their IEP or whatever it might be. So yeah, I think that that's another added bonus, potentially, to OT your speech getting into the classroom, not just for those three kids, but for all 30 Kids 100%. All right. So as we wrap up, I just want to kind of provide some or get your help to provide potentially some more tips for OTs, who maybe want to be OT practitioners who want to be more inclusive in their practice. And so if an OT practitioner is listening today, and they're like, hey, you know, what I want to get into the classroom, or I want to be more inclusive with my services, and maybe they're at a school district that you know, it's kind of the OT needs to stay in their corner. What might you recommend that this OT practitioner, say? Or do to the with the administrators to kind of get their attention a little bit? Is there any, you know, maybe even key buzzwords that might help?
Jenna Rufo
I think that I would suggest certainly going to your administrator as the first step, and expressing your desire to move in this direction, sharing why so why do you think it's important? And one of the things that I've found over the years in doing the work of inclusion is, the why that's meaningful for some people isn't the why that is meaningful for all people. So I think that you need to know what the culture of your school is and what the value system is. And then what rationale for inclusion is going to make the most sense for your building. So for some schools that are really data driven, I think the research and the outcomes on why the services are effective and the positive outcomes for students with disabilities, that's powerful for students that are really focusing our schools that are focusing on social emotional learning, that social peace and that authentic sense of belonging, that's really an avenue in so you have to consider your audience have to consider the culture of the school. I would try to probably go at it from multiple angles, so bringing different pieces in and then I think that for administrators, and as a former administrator myself, your head automatically goes to, okay, how do I make this work? How do I schedule this? How am I going to make sure that all these students are going to get their services? So I think that coming with the how, so here's how I would group students, and this is where I think it could be a good place to start. That's going to be your key to getting traction. Because I think that most people, most administrators would probably think, yeah, this sounds great. But the sticking point is there, if they don't have a background in special education, or maybe they do, but their background in special education is not an inclusive one. That idea of how it will actually happen, can be a barrier. So I think coming with that, how is important?
Jayson Davies
Yes, absolutely. Yes, that's exactly what I tell people I Yeah, you know, we can't just go and complain, right, we have to go with an idea in mind and a plan for what that could look like. If we just go and ask for more help as an OT, so we can do something, all they hear is I need to hire more, which, you know, that sounds great and all, but even if you're going to your principal, they don't have the power to hire typically, you know, it's way above them at the district level. And so we can't just ask for more people so that we can do more things, we need to come with a creative, you know, solution, you know, how am I going to add time to my day? I know we can't do that. But how are you really going to basically add time to your day so that you can fit something else in knew. And you know, once that starts going, you're going to get the time back. Because once you start going into the classroom, maybe you'll have less individual therapy. But there is that transition time. And the easier you can make it for your teachers or administrators to see how it can work, the more likely it is that you'll get the go ahead with trying and so yes. All right, big picture question to finish this all up 10 years from now, what is your hope for education and inclusivity,
Jenna Rufo
I would love to see a completely different system than what we are in now. A system where all students are included and valued. And where we're really embracing those principles of universal design for learning, and providing different opportunities for kids. So allowing them to excel at, you know, whatever their area of interest, or whatever things that they're good at really capitalizing on that because I think that so much of what we do in education, particularly for our students with disabilities, is deficit based. So we look at all the things a child can't do. And we come up with all these strategies and classes and programs that's going to fit them into this mold of school and what it means to be a good student. Whereas I think, if we're talking big picture, you know, what would general love to see, it would be a complete reshaping of the system and giving students different opportunities to share their strengths. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
And you know, as you say that that's something I've thought a lot about. And I like to say with an IEP, that goals tend to be deficit based. And accommodations tend to be strength space, right, we put accommodations in place that a student can use their strengths, to almost overcome the deficits of the goal. And we haven't talked about goals at all, which I think kind of alludes to that idea, right? We're not talking about putting very specific goals in place, a student will make this jump in ability level, we're talking about giving them the support, so that maybe they can use their strengths to overcome that difficulty. You even mentioned earlier, when it comes to assessments, right taking writing out of the picture for some of those students who they struggle with writing, but they can get that information out another way, whether it's just, you know, speech to text or typing or whatever it might be using those accommodations to kind of overcome some of those deficits. And I think using those accommodations, because facilitate a lot of inclusivity. Definitely. All right. Well, Jenna, thank you so much for being here before I let you go work in anyone interested in inclusivity, and special education or just education in whole, learn more.
Jenna Rufo
So a lot of the things that we talked about today are from the book that I have co authored reimagining special education. And if you just search reimagining special education on Google or Amazon, that book will come up in terms of any of the other practices or services that I personally am able to deliver. You can visit my website which is www dot empowered school.org and that will share the professional development students specific supports that we offer and other systemic supports as well.
Jayson Davies
Fantastic And we will be sure to link to all that in the show notes so you can catch all, you can catch the book as well as her website in the show notes. Jenna, thank you so much for joining us today, we really appreciate it. It is just a wonderful experience to be able to kind of get outside of the OT realm once in a while to hear from a teacher slash school administrators slash entrepreneur. It is awesome. Thank you so much for being here.
Jenna Rufo
Thank you, Jason. And thanks to all the OTs out there, I really value and celebrate all the work that you do and how you can be change agents in this movement towards inclusion.
Jayson Davies
All right, well, that is going to wrap up episode number 127. Once again, thank you so much for tuning in today. I hope you learned a lot through this collaboration between myself and occupational therapist, and Jenna, who is kind of, well, very well rounded in the world of education as a teacher, administrator, and now an educational consultant. I hope that you were able to grab some actionable takeaways from this episode. And I hope you're able to take this in and use this as maybe your school year get started in 2023. Or if you're listening to this later, maybe tomorrow in the middle of the school year, you can start communicating better with the teachers and creating actionable collaboration activities with them. And if you'd like to learn more about how I collaborate with other professionals in the school based OT world, head on over to OTSchoolHouse.com slash A to Z. That's where you can find our A to Z school based OT course where we talk a lot about getting into the classrooms and collaborating with teachers. So until next time, take care, have a great day, a great gym session, whatever it might be, and we'll see you next time on the OT school house podcast. Bye.
Amazing Narrator
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