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Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 175 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In this episode, Jayson discusses the often misunderstood role of school-based occupational therapy practitioners. He emphasizes the need for OT practitioners to advocate for their diverse skills beyond handwriting instruction, highlighting the importance of collaboration with teachers and administrators.
The conversation explores teacher and administrator perspectives on OT services, the value of collaboration, and the challenges faced by OT practitioners in schools. Jayson encourages listeners to find ways to support teachers and improve the perception of OT in educational settings. Takeaways School-based OT practitioners are often seen only as handwriting instructors.
Teachers value collaboration with OT practitioners to support students.
Many teachers want to see more OT involvement in classrooms.
Administrators may not fully understand the workload model of OT services.
OT practitioners need to advocate for their diverse roles in schools.
Collaboration can lead to better outcomes for students.
Teachers appreciate OT support in their classrooms.
OT practitioners should provide practical strategies to teachers.
Understanding teacher perspectives can improve OT services.
Advocacy is essential for changing perceptions of OT in education. Quotes “Seventy three percent of teachers said that they really want to see collaboration happen and that they actually think that collaboration with OT practitioners help their students.” -Jayson Davies,M.A, OTR/L "I know it sometimes gets tiring feeling like we have to advocate all the time, but everyone has to advocate all the time until people understand what they do.” -Jayson Davies,M.A, OTR/L "OT practitioners, you know, we we aren't always understood. However, we can change that. We can do a lot to change the way that OT is perceived, and the teachers actually want that.” -Jayson Davies,M.A, OTR/L Resources 👉 OT in school-based practice: Educator satisfaction with understanding of services before and after targeted training 👉 Teachers’ perceptions of the role of occupational therapists in schools. 👉 Elementary teachers’ perceptions of the value of collaboration with school-based occupational therapists 👉 Workload model in school-based occupational therapy practice: Administrators’ perspectives. 👉 Perspectives of school-based occupational therapists 👉 The perspectives of educators on school-based occupational therapy Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Jayson Davies     What's happening at school based ot practitioners, welcome back to another episode of the OT school house podcast. If my numbers are correct, I believe this is episode 175 so thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. Whether you've listened to one episode, or this is your first episode, or you have already listened to 174 episodes, anywhere in between. Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. Today is just gonna be me, and I'm talking about a subject that I think a lot of us have dwelled over in the past, and that is the idea that nobody understands what we do as school based ot practitioners, that everyone believes that we are handwriting instructors and that our role is to find one student in a class or maybe a few students in a classroom, take them to another room, support them in that classroom, bring them back and have them magically improved their handwriting overnight. You know, as a school based ot practitioner yourself, you know that that is not the case, and today I'm going to flip the script a little bit. I've done some digging into the research, and I have some things that I think will help you out a little bit, especially if you're in a little bit of a funk. I think these articles will really help you kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel, per se, or see how others, such as teachers and administrators actually perceive us as school based ot practitioners, rather than the way that we often ruminate about how practitioners or sorry about how administrators and teachers think about us as just the handwriting instructors. So I've got about five different topics here today that I want to go through. We're going to go through each one a little bit. I've got some research that I'm going to tag in at times throughout this episode. But first, let's go ahead and jump in to the intro music, and when we come back, we'll dive into the real ideas that teachers and administrators have about school based ot practitioners.    Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast. Your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     All right, we are back. We're going to start off with a quick debunking of the myth that teachers just want us to grab kids and take them off to the OT room and bring them back, magically able to, you know, improve their handwriting. And the truth of the matter is, is that there's research that shows that that is not true at a more broader base. First of all, teachers do value occupational therapy. They do, and I think most of us do know that, maybe some more than others, right. Some teachers are more outward with their emotions about how they appreciate school based ot practitioners, where others are more reserved, and maybe we don't have as good a communication with them, and so they don't share that appreciation. But there is research out there, especially within the last 10 years or so, of OT practitioners being appreciated by teachers. Now the more important part of this research is not just that they want or that they appreciate us as ot practitioners, but even more so, the important part is that they want more collaboration from us, which I don't think a lot of us think about. We think that teachers just want us to make their lives a little bit easier by taking a student who is sometimes a distraction in the classroom, and help them one on one and bring them back, right? But that's not the case. We are hearing from teachers that they want us to collaborate. They want us to come into the classroom model what works, and to show them what works, so that them, as well as their paraprofessionals counterparts, can also support students in the classroom, for example, Benson, majestic, majestic. There's a few names here that I'm butchering, but this article from 2016 found that teachers clearly see ot practitioners as valuable team members, but challenges like time and scheduling often prevent the collaboration that they actually want. And so they also are realizing that as much as they want us to collaborate with them and as much as we want to collaborate with them, there are some barriers in the way that prevent that, like scheduling and caseload demands. EdX 2021 study found that 73% of teachers said that they really want to see collaboration happen, and that they actually think that collaboration with ot practitioners help their students. However, only about a third of them said that they actually are able to collaborate often, again, showing that teachers appreciate collaboration but understand that it's not always the most simple thing to do. So then, what are we to do with all this knowledge? Well, first of all, let's stop getting down on ourselves about teachers not understanding what we do, or just thinking that we are handwriting instructors. They do value us, and they do want more work with us, but they also understand the time constraints and the caseload constraints that we all have are preventing that collaboration. So from here on out, maybe we start to kind of assume that as a truth, as opposed to teachers not appreciating us or just seen as the handwriting coach or teacher, we'll get more into the whole scope of occupational therapy in a minute. But I think that we need to start almost instead of defaulting to a pull out model, maybe we need to start defaulting to more of a collaborative model. Now that we understand that there is research out there a few different research articles that share, that teachers actually appreciate their collaboration, let's confidently go into those collaborations and work with teachers. Let's kind of default to collaboration. And you know what? It might surprise a few of your teachers. It might even surprise yourself a few times when you do this at first. But let's aim from a strength. I guess you could say from a position of strength, and say, You know what, I'm going to collaborate. I know this might be a little tricky, but I'm confident in my ability to support the teachers that I serve, and I'm going to do that. And you know, it may not be easy at first, but once you put in those reps, that rep with one teacher, collaborating with them, week in and week out for a month, you will start to see progress in your ability to effectively collaborate with teachers to make progress for the students. All right now diving into the second myth, or the second problem, if you want to call it that, is that we sometimes believe that either a teachers only see us as handwriting specialists, that is it, and that's all they'll ever see us as, or B. We sometimes assume that they know everything there is to know about our role in OT or the school based model, and they think that, or we think that they should know that we are executive functioning specialists, and that we are ADL specialists, and that we can support sensory processing difficulties and all of that. But in actuality, that's simply not the case, because occupational therapy practitioners, everyone from me to you, I mean, I'm generalizing here, but even all the way up to your state organizations, all the way up to our national organizations with a OTA and everyone in between, we have not done the best job at getting the word out there. And I know it sometimes gets tiring feeling like we have to advocate all the time, but everyone has to advocate all the time until people understand what they do. So I think it is a little bit on us, but it's also on the programs that teachers learn from and administrators learn from to be a part of the solution. Here just a few different points from the research, just at all from 2023 show that targeted education sessions significantly improved. Teachers are standing of the OT role. What that means right there is that we can provide little me in services, if you will, for the first grade team or for the K through four team, or for our entire school, or maybe even if you're lucky, for an entire school district, and share with them what you can do beyond handwriting and sensory processing. Share with them what you did in one class at a school that maybe they aren't even at, but how you improved that classroom and how you supported that teacher and the kids. Share with them what you are doing, and they will better understand how you can support them. Another article from 2020 This is from Aria and her colleagues. Sorry, there are some names here that I'm sure I'm butchering, but I want to get this knowledge to you, and I'll be sure to link to all these articles in the show notes. But what this team found is that even special education teachers often received little or no training about school based occupational therapy when they were in their program to learn how to be a teacher. And you know, it makes sense, right? The people that are teaching those people, the teachers and the administrators, are other teachers and administrators, the same way that the people teaching us in our OT programs are OTs and OTs and other people related to occupational therapy, we don't fully understand what it means to be a teacher or an administrator, and the teachers and the administrators don't fully understand what it means to be an OT practitioner. So how do we go about changing that piece of it? This is a complicated one, and one that is going to take time, but it is one that I know some people are already taking on. One of my good friends, Danielle de Lorenzo, over at mindfulness in motion. She was actually being a guest lecturer, I think even multiple sessions, not just like a one time thing, but she was providing instruction at a local teaching university, or teacher University, places where teachers went to learn how to be teachers. So that is one thing that we can do. I think another thing that we can also do is start presenting at teacher conferences and administrator conferences. That is something that. I made one of my goals for the next few years is to continue to go to OT conferences, but also get outside of OT conferences and go present to teachers, administrators, maybe even parents. I think that's going to be one of the best ways that I can support all of you, is by helping teachers and administrators better understand our role. So take every opportunity you can get to teach through short tips at staff meetings, through handouts or even casual conversations at the PTA meeting for your own kids, if you go to PTA meetings for your own kids, or whatever it might be, frame ot services in a way that you want ot services and entire MTSS classroom type of services to look like. We need to start talking about ot in a way that we want ot to look like. Otherwise it's going to continue to look like the way that it is right now, at whatever school you support, all right. Now, I want to stop talking mostly about the teacher perspectives of school based occupational therapy and start moving over to the administrator side of school based occupational therapy, and how our administrators, from assistant principals and principals to maybe even the special education director or other people at the district level might think about school based occupational therapy, and I think that we as a school based ot practitioners, often perceive administrators as trying to cut costs, save money, trying to provide the least valuable service as a play on the least restrictive environment, but I think that we have to Flip this a little bit. Yes, administrators are focused on the cost of education. That to a degree is their role. It is their job to balance the cost with the impact of services, right? So we often may think that, oh, they only care about students who have IEPs and making sure those service minutes are met. Well, if we feel that way, it might be, because if you talk to administrators, it's kind of true that is their role. Their role is to make sure that IEPs get done the way that they are supposed to be done, and they have to do that within a certain budget. However, from our perspective as occupational therapy practitioners, we need to show them how the type of services that we provide can be cost effective at different levels of service, whether that's a one on one service, a group service, or maybe a larger MTSS class wide or grade level wide service through collaboration, administrators have a tough job, just like every other person within public education, like it is no different from if you're talking about people all the way at the top, the superintendent, down to the district administrators, to your school site administrators, and then going down from there, teachers and paraprofessionals and every single person that works on that campus to Make It Happen, from the custodians and the lunch people, everyone, right? It all takes a village to support these kids, but there are budgetary constraints. That doesn't mean that that is the only piece that administrators are looking at. So what this means for us is that we need to help administrators better understand the value that we can provide as ot practitioners, and the way that we do that a few different ways, showing that our IEP services are actually effective, and maybe showing how our services are even impacting other measurable items, such as scores on other tests. How are we having an impact on standardized testing, not just on ot tests, but on the reading or mask, course, if you can show that mind blown, administrators will be happy to support you. The other way that we can potentially show data that is good for occupational therapy is that if we go through an MTSS route, if we can somehow provide data that shows that MTSS ot type of services or collaboration, can reduce the resource requirement for evaluations and individual services and IEPs and all the time management that goes with serving IEPs. There's a lot of things that people don't like about IEPs. Like the meetings. You probably don't like the meetings either administrators don't like the meetings, because that's five professionals getting paid to sit at a table when, in theory, those people should be getting paid to provide services to the students. So if we can show them that our OT MTSS services, or, you know, with your speech friends and PT friends, can show them that all the MTSS services can reduce the number of minutes that we spend in meetings. Well, there's that data that you just might need to show administrators. Hey, MTSS is a good idea. A recent survey from bully a Barry and pot Finn This is 2025, so very, very recent just came out, found that while. Administrators value ot services. Many aren't familiar with workload models that account for the ways that we contribute. And you know, as you all know here at the OT school house, I am a big, big advocate for the workload model, and unfortunately, it's just like occupational therapy services as a whole. Administrators don't know about it because we haven't brought it up to them. I mean, a lot of OT practitioners don't fully understand the workload model, and until we fully understand it and can share it with our administrators, they won't fully understand it. So it's not like they're going to OT school learning about this workload model. We have to share it with them so that they understand it and so that they can help us. Help them help us. I mean, it's like a win win win circle going on. If we help them, they can help us. So yeah, to wrap this all up, if you get one thing from this podcast episode, and I hope I have kept it pretty short or short enough for you, I should say I want you to understand that teachers and administrators aren't against us. They may not fully understand what we do. They may be in a budgetary or time crunch, just like we are, but that doesn't mean that they don't want to work alongside us. There is research out there, especially more recently, that shows that teachers want to collaborate with us. They get value from working with us. They appreciate us coming into their classroom and working in their classrooms and showing them and the paraprofessionals and the kids how to work with one another. And I think that's valuable, and I think that is something that we haven't had for a long time in school based occupational therapy, and we just felt like teachers wanted us to take that one behavioral child out of the classroom so that they could have a break. But that's not what the data is showing us. The data is showing us that they want us in the classroom, and whether that's working with a single kid in the classroom, a group of kids, or even their entire classroom running a 10 week handwriting instruction program or supporting an interoception program where we teach kids how to better understand their body, the teachers want us in those classrooms. Similarly, administrators, they don't always know what we do when they don't always understand how our role can impact the entire school, or, more importantly, sometimes their budget. But if we can begin to show them, then they'll be able to fight for us and fight for potentially more ot practitioners on campus, or a better use of our time than sitting in meetings for way too many minutes every single year. So at the end of the day, teachers want our collaboration. They are open to learning more, as are the administrators, and they are looking for support for the students who need it most, and if we can provide that, they will appreciate it. All right. So the final thing that I am going to leave you with today is a little bit of a challenge, and I just want you to find one small way to step forward, maybe offer one quick sensory strategy, or share a visual schedule idea that the teacher can do in the classroom. And I've been saying this for a long time, but teachers don't need more work. Teachers need more support. And so let's get away from just telling a teacher how to do something and actually going in showing them in the moment how they can do it, because if we solve that teacher's one problem in that one moment, they are more likely to carry out that same action or similar action that we showed them at a later time when they need that support going forward. So with that, I'm going to go ahead and let you enjoy the rest of your day without me in your ears, but I really appreciate you coming in and listening to this episode again, solo episode, just you and I today, but I hope you appreciated that I will post a link to all the research that I talked about today, and then a few extra articles that I found on this subject of teachers and administrators perceptions on school based occupational therapy. You can grab all that over at 175, or by clicking on the show notes link wherever you're listening to this episode. And yeah, I I just really hope that, especially if you're a little down on school based ot right now in your professional career, I hope that this episode just helps to lift you up a little bit and make you feel like, you know what? Yes, ot practitioners, you know, we we aren't always understood. However, we can change that. We can do a lot to change the way that OT is perceived. And the teachers actually want that. The teachers want to see how we can support them. And you know, there will be teachers who just kind of want us to stay in our handwriting Lane from time to time, but more so teachers want to see all the different ways that we can support them, not just one handwriting or sensory processing strategy that we have for them. All right. With that, I will see you next time on the otschool podcast. Take care and have a great rest of your day.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening.      To the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

About once a month, I receive the following question: "Do you have any data sheets I can use to track IEP goals?" For years, my answer to every email about this was a quick link to Teachers Pay Teachers.  In fact, I even shared this tip in my A-Z School-Based OT Course. For a long time, TPT proved to be a fast, convenient, and free way to find plug and play IEP data sheets. However, with Chat GPT and Gemini providing quality AI content for free, I had to give AI a try and see how it would do to help create data sheets. In this article, I’ll walk you through why I used to recommend TPT, why that changed, and how you can now use ChatGPT to quickly generate tailored, HIPPA/FERPA-friendly data sheets for your students. Why I Rarely Created My Own Goal Data Sheets (Until Now) To be honest, I used TPT for data sheets because it felt like too much work to create a new data sheet for every student. Between writing evaluations, attending IEPs, and delivering services, there simply wasn’t time to reinvent a new custom data sheet for each kid. The effort didn’t seem worth the outcome . As such, I’d usually end up reusing a generic sheet, scribbling changes in the margins, and hoping it would suffice. In the years I did take time to create my own data sheets for kids, I found that I would use them until their IEP came up, but would then forget to update them afterwards. As such, I would often download and print many copies of a few TPT data sheets to stash in my desk. That way, after each IEP I could grab one, write the student’s name on it, and place it in their file. At the end of the day, the time saved using TPT data sheets simply outweighed my need for data tracking sheets to be specific to each student’s IEP goal. Then Came ChatGPT When ChatGPT first came on the scene a few years ago, drafting IEP goals and creating data sheets was one of the first tasks I gave to the AI. At that time, the new and exciting Open AI tool was nearly useless for data sheets. The chatbot could draft an IEP goal, but it would become very confused if you asked it to create a chart or table. Today, though, that is a different story. Even with the 100% free, no-email-required version of ChatGPT. Now, with a single, well-crafted prompt, you can generate a student-specific goal tracking sheet in five minutes or less. I pulled a goal from the OT Schoolhouse Goal Bank  and paired it with this prompt to generate a data sheet that I could copy and paste into a Google Doc. Please create a print-ready data sheet that I can copy into a Google Doc and give to a teacher to track an IEP goal. Include the student's Present Level of Performance, the annual goal, and all benchmarks or objectives. Also include a separate summary table for tracking progress over time. I then gave ChatGPT that prompt and the goal information. Within a few minutes (Starbuck’s WiFi was very slow), Chat GPT created the data sheet you see below. From there, all I had to do was copy and paste the AI output over to a Google Doc. Tips for Pasting the AI Output into a Google Doc Copying the AI-generated content into a Google Doc took just seconds. There is even a little “note” looking button that you click to quickly copy the entire output (See the video below). From there, I made a few tweaks to make it visually clean and easy for educators to use. Here’s a step-by-step walkthrough: Switch to landscape mode : Tables tend to display better in this format. Clean up unnecessary formatting : ChatGPT often includes horizontal divider lines you can delete. Make your tables visible : In Google Docs, click on the table, choose the three-dot menu, and bump the border thickness up to 0.5 pt to make lines visible. Resize and customize : You can easily adjust column width or add/remove rows based on the goal complexity. Organize it your way : You might want the goal objectives grouped separately from progress notes, or you might combine both into one table depending on your preference. Click here to view the formatted Google Doc This quick customization process helps ensure the document looks professional and fits your data collection style.
Why This Is Now My Go-To Recommendation Let’s be honest, documentation can feel overwhelming. That’s why I wanted to share this with everyone. There are many things we cannot or should not use AI for, but for the creation of data sheets, using AI is quick, customizable, compliant, and easily accessible. Plus, the flexibility means you can create as many variations as needed: goal-specific sheets, daily or weekly tracking versions, or simplified classroom check-ins. Watch It In Action Want to see the process for turning a goal into a data sheet from start to finish? Watch the video below to see how I use ChatGPT to create a goal-tracking sheet in under 7 minutes. Final Thoughts If you’re spending more than 7 minutes creating data sheets for each student and are open to using AI, give this method a try. ChatGPT has made it easier than ever to build personalized, printable tools that save time and improve documentation. After you give it a try, shoot me an email at Jayson@otschoolhouse.com  and let me know how it works for you. Until next time,

👋 Jayson

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 174 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In today’s episode, we’re talking all about MTSS—Multi-Tiered Systems of Support—and how occupational therapy fits into the bigger picture of supporting students in schools. Every school has its own challenges and strengths, and the way OT integrates into MTSS can look different depending on the setting. Joining us is Dr. Moira Bushell, a school-based OT whose systems-level work is both innovative and impactful. Moira was recently named a Fellow of the American Occupational Therapy Association and received the Recognition of Achievement Award at the 2025 Inspire conference. She brings deep insight into what it takes to implement collaborative, effective practices in schools—and how OTs can be a key part of that process. Whether you’ve ever wondered how to provide support within MTSS without a formal evaluation or you’re trying to better understand the differences between Tiers 1, 2, and 3, this episode is full of thoughtful conversation and practical ideas. Listen to learn more about how to enhance your understanding of MTSS and how OTs can drive student success. Listen now to learn the following objectives: -Learners will describe the core components of a Multi-Tiered System of Support (MTSS) and the unique contributions of occupational therapy within this framework. -Learners will differentiate between Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 supports and explain how OT strategies can be applied at each level. -Learners will identify collaborative practices that enhance OT integration into MTSS and promote systems-level change in school settings. Guest(s) Bio Dr. Moira P. Bushell, OTD, MEd, OTR/L has been a school-based occupational therapist for over 12 years. Her extensive experience in program facilitation and passion for education make her a strong advocate for children. Dr. Bushell has profoundly influenced school-based OT practice and volunteer leadership.  She excels in systems change, advocacy, and leadership development, transforming AOTA’s volunteer nomination processes to align with strategic goals and foster inclusive governance. Her expertise includes creating inclusive learning environments and supporting students of all abilities. She currently serves in multiple volunteer roles with the Illinois and American Occupational Therapy Associations. Her dedication to meaningful change continues to shape the profession and the communities she serves. Quotes “When you're doing MTSS correctly, you're looking at the whole child and a holistic perspective on everything that's impacting the student during their time in school and sometimes outside of school, and what factors are impacting them and their participation in the school environment.”  -Dr. Moira P. Bushell, OTD, MEd, OTR/L “Behavior should be a neutral word, not a negative word. And it's taken this negative connotation that behavior is bad, but behavior is communication.” -Dr. Moira P. Bushell, OTD, MEd, OTR/L “But we need to know that curriculum. That's the easiest way to start understanding how to support the kids, is to understand the curriculum.”  -Jayson Davies, M.A., OTR/L Resources 👉 Moira’s Email
👉 Moira’s Linkedin
👉 UDL
👉 Learning without Tears 
👉 Zones of Regulation Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Jayson Davies     Hello friend. Welcome to Episode 173 of the OT school house podcast. Thanks for being here. As you may know, I'm a huge advocate for ot practitioners having a route to leadership roles in the school setting is something that I once wanted to do even, and our ability to be leaders in a school department I believe is long overdue. Myself and many others have spent a ton of time and energy attempting to make this possible. Unfortunately, though, we have a lot of advocating still to do, and this often has to happen on a state by state basis, so there is still a lot of work that we have to do and make this possible. That's why, on the podcast today, I've invited three therapists who when challenged on the matter of OTs in leadership within their state, they stepped up and completed a research survey to help all of us demonstrate why we would make great leaders in our districts. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast Jamie Spencer Kim Wiggins and Serena Zeidler together. Kim Jamie and Serena conducted some much needed research into the perceptions of occupational therapy practitioners as leaders within the New York State Education System. Their findings and insights challenged the status quo and spark powerful conversations that we're going to have today about the roles that we can play and the impacts that we can have at an administrative level. Now I know you might be thinking to yourself, Jayson, I don't want to be an admin and sit in meetings all day. That is not why I got in to OT, and I get that, but I also know that there are some ot practitioners who would love to be administrators and have an impact on not just the OT department, but also maybe even your entire district as a whole. I mean, wouldn't it be awesome if we just could have an occupational therapy practitioner as the director of special education or pupil services, or maybe in some other amazing role that they could have a huge impact in. Well, to have this conversation and to better understand the research, let's go ahead and dive in with Jamie Serena and Kim to hear what they uncovered within their research and what the next steps are now that we have it.    Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jason Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Jamie Kim and Serena, welcome to the OT school house podcast. How are you all doing today?     Jamie Spencer     Great.    Kim Wiggins     Great.    Serena Zeidler     Great. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for your interest in our research.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, I am excited. Your research actually just dropped about a year ago. We're right at the one year anniversary, I believe, from the published state. And the name of that article is perceptions of occupational therapy practitioners as leaders within the New York State education system. And yes, while it does have New York State education system in the title of the article, as well as I know you all know, and everyone else should know that this is about much more than just the state of New York. So let's go ahead and dive right into that discussion and to get things started right at the top here, let's just dive into the problem. Jamie, what do you see as the main reason, or the collection of reason that we are here, where we are today, where so many ot practitioners are not allowed to be leaders within a school system?    Jamie Spencer     Okay, well, there are a lot of answers, but first, we are not allowed to be leaders, because in most states, we're not considered educational or instructional. And the reason we're not considered educational or instructional is because when the education laws came about that required schools to provide occupational therapy for students who need it, for students with special needs. All of the OTs at that point were medical, and the schools were kind of tasked with hurry. We need to hire OTs to service these students right away, because the law says we do. And so where did they get those occupational therapists from the medical setting? So the OTs came over and they were using their medical know how, and they were widely considered to be medical professionals, and that's how they practice for a very long time. But since then, the education laws have updated dramatically, and our role has changed significantly. So we really are educational, but most states have not updated their legislation to categorize us as So.     Jayson Davies     Absolutely. and I think all of us here, and we talked about on the podcast before with ESSA, especially in 2015 that really kind of ingrained us into. To the educational world, as opposed to an outsider medical professional coming in and and I think we're going to talk more about that a little bit, but Kim Serena, or even Jamie again. Would you like to add on your thoughts as to, you know, why ot practitioners, you know, in today's day and age, aren't really looked as being, I guess, qualified for a leadership position?    Serena Zeidler     Yes. So when we did our research, John sauvignate Kirsch from Connecticut, her research indicated which states have educational credentialing for OTs. And then we our research was a few years later, and there were a few changes, and what we found was that the states of Colorado, New Jersey, Ohio, Washington and Massachusetts, which sort of has a back door way of educational credentialing, are now the five states that, To the best of our knowledge, OTs have the opportunity, if they choose, to take the coursework to obtain an educational administrative certificate. So in New York State, in order to take the coursework to become an administrator, you have to have be educationally credentialed, which we are not in New York. So I think there's and different states call this different things, like in New York, it's educational credentialing. I mean, in other states, they call it different things, but it all really comes down to not having that recognition    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. And that's similar to here in California. We've had this discussion before with Jamie and others on this podcast, that in California, we're having the same problem, and we're trying to overcome that hurdle, and we're having to be persistent about it. We're having to be creative about it, and I'm sure we'll dive more into that in a bit. One of the things that you really pointed out in your answer, though, Serena, was that there are states that do only a handful, but that also means that there are states that don't. This is not necessarily a country wide issue. It sounds like it's more of a state by state issue. Does that seem correct in what I'm saying based upon your findings, or do we feel like this is a larger or maybe it's not, but it should be a larger federal issue that needs to be kind of handled at a more broader issue? Does that make sense?     Jaime Spencer     Well, it's definitely a national issue, and there are a few states that allow occupational therapists to become leaders and really infuse their flavor and their holistic mindset into the school community. But it is also a state by state issue, because each state's legislation, and Serena said it perfectly, is a little bit different. So if I wanted to tell everybody, the big problem is that, for the most part, we're not considered educators. We're not considered instructional, but in each state, that might be worded differently, and the solution to the problem might be a different pathway, depending on the way the state has it set up.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha, okay, so, yeah, I mean, we're all gonna have to tackle this. It sounds like state by state. It's not like one mass legislation is gonna go through in Washington, DC, and make this problem all go away. It sounds like we're going to have to work at this state by state. Correct?     Jaime Spencer     Yes, but we're hoping that we can start an avalanche where one state will pass the law and the other one will also pass the law, and then little by little by little, and that we can all help each other to do that with, you know, educating each other on what we've tried and what key stakeholders we worked with, and what wording we used, and all of that.    Kim Wiggins     I think the other important piece too is that once that happens, then all of the OT schools need to start adding the coursework to their to their curriculum, and move towards that. Because I think that's something that we found in our research too, is that some of the states actually have that coursework included, so then they get kind of like a credential, like a certificate, just like the school counselors do and the psychologists. So it's, it's something that there's lots of steps to that we have to really consider,    Serena Zeidler     yes, that's, I think that's really a really important point to make in our research, we did interview an OT from the state of Washington who basically explained the process to us, and then she referred us to another ot who kindly let us interview her, who went through the process of becoming an administrator, she was eligible to take the coursework and so basically to just piggyback off what Kim said, there are two, she talked about, two schools in the state of Washington. One has that coursework. That Kim talked about, and the other one doesn't. So students graduate from the program that has that coursework, they're, I'm sorry, they're automatically considered educational staff associate, along with other related service providers, like school psychologists, school social workers. So any related service provider in the state of Washington needs to have that educational staff associate credential. Now let's say Jayson, you decide to move to the state of Washington and want to work in the schools, you would then have to take a coursework. And this administrator, it kind of indicated short course. She thought that you can do it online, but anybody that is a related service provider that wants to work in the schools needs to be in the state of Washington and educational staff associate, I hope I have this right, yeah, yes, so and this OT, who took the administrative coursework became a school director, director of special education and secondary program, so it worked out very well for her. But I think it is different in every state. In New York, we have, we're licensed through the office of the professions, but there is also the New York State Education Department, Office of the Teach of teaching initiatives, Office of Teaching initiatives. Ot i and they issue certificates in three categories, to administrators, to teachers and to pupil personnel services or service providers, school psychologists, school social workers, even I believe, master's level nurses, guidance counselors, but we're not in there. Neither is PT, and that's considered an educational credential. And you have to have an educational credential in order to be able to take the coursework to become a school administrator. So that's what we're looking to do. We kind of feel like we would like to follow the path of school social workers, you know, that are educationally credentialed and hold that certificate through the Office of Teaching initiatives. Does that make sense? Yeah,    Jayson Davies     absolutely. I mean, New York and California, sometimes we tend to be similar. And it sounds like it. In this case, it's relatively similar. You know, we're licensed by the state of California as an OT practitioner, but the whole educational side of things is kind of disconnected from the regular licensure, because they have certifications, right or credentials, sorry, not licenses. And same type of thing here. Speech Therapists, you know, they get their C's, and they can be administrators. School psychologists can be administrators, but PTs and OTs can't, because we are licensed on the other side of the government. If you want to kind of segment it that way, I sometimes tell people that if I was able to get a school administrative credential, the OT school house may not exist, because that was my initial long term strategy was to try to figure out how to become an administrator. And I found out that I would have had to go back to school for like five years, get a credential, work for five years, then, because you have to have an experience in order to apply to the admin credential. So it would have taken me like eight years or something like that, to go back and start from scratch, which is just insane, but yeah, here we are. So from what I've heard you all say exact same experience. Jayson, right? It's, it's very unfortunate. So it's great to hear that in five states, you know, they've got this figured out, but it sounds like, from what we've started with here today, there's a few primary problems, Jamie kind of started us off with. We weren't at the table at the right time, when all this was being discussed. We weren't at the table. Kim and Serena, you both brought up the education aspects that you know, we're not necessarily educated as educators. We're educated as medical professionals, and so there's a little bit of that. Then we also talked about the government side of things, where it's just education. Is often its own part of each state's education, right? Each state has a Department of Education, and OTs are not in that department really, like we're not ingrained into that department yet. I think I kind of summarize what we talked about so far in those three but are there any other key areas that we want to talk about as a problem before we move    Jamie Spencer     on. I think you can't not think of the effect. So that's a pro. Those are the main problems, but the trickle down effects of occupational therapists not being allowed to be leaders is just tremendous in terms of everything, in terms of who it affects, how it affects the school community, how it affects the profession, how it affects the stakeholders, the community. I mean you, you name it, and it's just limitless,    Jayson Davies     perfect. And that's exactly where I wanted to go to go next. Because obviously, when we think about this, ot practitioners, we are so unselfish. But at the same time here like it almost feels a little. Little selfish to be advocating for ourselves to be administrators, right? Like we want to be an administrator, that's like we need to be administrators. But it's not just about us. It is about the other stakeholders. So Jamie Kim, maybe one of you want to go a little bit deep into the stakeholders, who are the stakeholders that we might not always think about.    Kim Wiggins     Well, I think that so for I just wanted to also point out, like I actually don't have an interest in being an administrator, but I want, I want to have the opportunity for my colleagues to be administrators, right? And I think that that's super important. So the other stakeholders that are really impacted by all of this is the teachers, right, the NYSED or the education departments. We have all of our advocacy organizations for all of our states, you know, like so in New York, like nysoda, Nyssa, and then obviously the parents and the school community, like everybody involved really is impacted by the OTs not being having the leadership roles in the education system,    Jayson Davies     okay? And so to kind of go a little bit further deeper into that, in what way, like what way would as us being into the administration community, whether it's a assistant principal, a principal or a director or superintendent. What are some of those barriers that we're hoping to overcome so that we can have have an impact on all of those stakeholders?    Jaime Spencer     Well, I think you know when you work, when you work for a school and you're a member of the school community for a little while, you wish to establish a rapport with your colleagues, and you learn from each other, and you learn what a teacher does and how a teacher runs her room, and they learn what you bring to the table. The same would happen if OTs were at the administrative table. We have a unique skill set and a different holistic viewpoint, and we have a very, very creative mindset, and we think outside the box, and we come up with unique alternatives that I think a lot of school administrators would not think of because they don't have the background that we have, and because we're not at that table, we're not at the pro we're not A part of the problem solving teams. We can't show how great our profession is, and that, you know, because of that, administrators don't know exactly what we do, and it just goes on and on. So they don't include the OT and the flexible seating committee, or they don't include the OT in the social emotional learning curriculum development, because they don't think that they don't really know what we do.    Jayson Davies     And serene, if I come back to you, it sounds like you had the opportunity to kind of at least learn about someone who has been in this role and in that case, and this could be a for all of you as well. But from the people that have been in that role, what have they been able to accomplish as an administrator that maybe others weren't able to do like Jamie was talking about, because they aren't in that administrative position?    Serena Zeidler     Well, the administrator that we had interviewed had indicated that she wasn't so much interested in being a school principal, because she wasn't had that hadn't had the experience being a classroom teacher, but she was interested in being a director of special ed, which is, which is what she did. And I think if you know, for even us OTs like you know Kim, that maybe are not interested in securing a leadership position, you know, in the schools, we still may really value having a highly qualified ot in an administrative role, you know, because we want to be recognized and valued and utilized for our full scope of practice, including areas that we saw in our survey. You know, in the results that OTs are not fully, you know, utilizing like MTSS and mental health and health promotion, but if an OT was is there as an administrator, they would, they would be more likely, in our opinion, to recognize our value and utilize us for our full scope of practice.    Jamie Spencer     In Ohio, I actually presented last summer with Kim at the school based conference, and my presentation was about how in Ohio you have these opportunities, so you should take them, because in so many other you know, states, they don't have those opportunities. And I highlighted the success stories of a couple of wonderful occupational therapy leaders that did make a big difference as leaders. So one of them was Kareem Robbins, and she pitched the idea to her district that she should be the coordinator of all the related services. Services, and she wrote it out like a business plan, that we need this position, like, let's create this position. And she got it, and she moved up, and she said that one of the key benefits of her being a leader was that she was able to link the state licensure board to the educational law, and that this was a crucial point, because a teacher who became the special ed director could not do that as well as a related service provider. So it was very cool to hear the success stories of occupational therapy practitioners who did achieve wonderful things as a leader.    Jayson Davies     I think that's a really good point that I've never really thought about Jamie, because we often see school based ot practitioners that get a little conflicted by what the licensure of their state ot license says and what they're being asked upon within the schools. You know, schools might be asking them to document one way or not document because they're trying to save time and the licensing board says you need to document every service you need to do this and that for documentation. Same thing when it comes to evaluations, right? The schools might be trying to cut corners by decrease the expectation of an evaluation when the licensure board says a full evaluation looks like this and you need to do all those pieces. And I could go on and on, but I never really thought about it from that perspective. So that's a really    Jamie Spencer     good point. Yeah, I also interviewed Cheryl van hoose, and she's actually a PT, so shout out to the PTS who also don't have leadership opportunities. But in Ohio, she ended up advancing and advancing and became the liaison between the Ohio Physical Therapy Association and the Ohio Department of Education. So that's huge.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, a lot of.    Jamie Spencer     one of the key quotes that she said was that OTs and PTs have the foundational knowledge that can help kids learn. And I just loved that quote from her.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and it opens up a lot of opportunities. And like I know, a lot of OTs would really appreciate ot practitioners. OTs included, of course, would love if their boss was just an OT and understood their job. And we don't have that fortunate aspect in most of our jobs. Whether or not we are a direct hire in the school district or if we're a contracted therapist. We might have someone, we might have someone who guides us from the contracting position agency, but they're not a direct employee of the school, and therefore they don't know our exact needs, our expectations, you know, our ambitions, and how we can support all the kids. So definitely having someone above us that actually knows what we do right would be really nice.     Kim Wiggins     I was just going to say that actually, I think in 25 years as an OT in various different positions and and schools, I've never had an administrator that was a related service provider. And you can and either have my colleagues and so when we have our our related service staff meetings that are being run and organized by whatever their backgrounds are, if they're teachers, typically, most of them have been teachers that have moved up to it being administrators. It's really hard. It's almost like we're educating them about what OT is first in order for them to be able to help us make decisions that we already have, you know, we think that we have really good answers to or solutions to, but we have to do all this educating and all this extra work before we can get any impact, you know. And so I think that that is a huge it would be a huge benefit to have related service providers as administrators, and I have been in situations where I know my speech pathologist friends have moved up to be administrators, and we're always like, cheering them on, and that's awesome, but it's really a matter of like, you're the people. Are people, and everybody has different qualities and strengths that they can use to be an administrator. So being an OT or a PT or a speech therapist or a teacher, becoming an administrator, I think it, I think it really just depends on the person you know, and why don't we have that chance? It just gives it. We need to have that chance and that option.    Jayson Davies     I'm gonna bring up one more thing that we've seen, at least here in California, in terms of why people are concerned about us looking toward an administrator credential. And I don't know if you can speak to this or not, but I'm going to throw it out there, because we've had people being very and I completely understand why, but we've had people very interested in what is going to happen to either a their status in or not inside of a union as part of an administrative credentialing being changed. That process being changed, and also their retirement. They're worried that they might be reclassified from non credential to credential or in other way, and that could impact the retirement. Right? Obviously, at least in California, I'll say it's not obviously, obvious everywhere, but in California, if you are in the school system, it's your pretty good retirement. Like, they're known for having good retirements in the public school system here, I don't know if that's everywhere, but people are worried about that, right? Like, don't mess with people's retirement, right? From your experience, have you heard anything about that? Is that come up with others or from yourself? Like, is that a perspective that you've looked at?     Kim Wiggins     I think that it's been I've noticed that it's pretty inconsistent. Like, I only can speak for New York, and even within New York, there are OTs that are in the teachers union, and have, they're obviously not in the Teacher's Retirement, but they're in the state retirement, which is very similar. And then there's OTs in New York that are not in the Union, and they, they're just, it just seems to be very, very inconsistent. And that just seems wrong, you know, like it just doesn't make sense to me. Like Jamie, you can speak to your personal experience too    Jamie Spencer     Well, to answer your question. Jayson, I do think that there are occupational therapists who are very concerned about that, and rightly so. But it wouldn't just be like a chop, chop. This is what we're doing. You know, there would have to be a whole transition plan and a process, and it's certainly, you know, we're looking to have equity. We're not looking to harm the profession or the professionals. We want to create opportunities for them so that they have equal opportunities to the rest of the educational staff. So the state or the United you know, the teachers associations, who have all the key stakeholders, would really need to put a smooth transition plan in place so that it wouldn't be harmful, but it's, you know, of course, everyone's going to have concerns. But what I always say, and like Kim said, in New York, things are very varied, from upstate to downstate to the city. We all have a different story, but we all have. A lot of us have similar problems, but different stories, but it doesn't really matter, because if this law changes, I can't tell you what's going to happen to Susie Jones in district two in Building C, with her principal, Mr. Smith, like I don't know, and I just hope that it works out, and there's going to be glitches and there's going to be bumps in the road, but for the profession as a whole, it's just not best practice the way things are right now, and we need to not be scared of change, because change can be a wonderful thing.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And, and I've heard as well that a lot of those decisions on what union you're in and what retirement you're classified are really more done at the even local or area than just the state. And like Kim was saying, right, it's very different. Some people are in the teachers union. Some are not. That's the same thing here in California, and it sounds like that's more related to how the district, the individual district, has decided to classify OTs, as opposed to the state classified OTs in a way that would be impacted by an administrative credential or educational credential. So yeah, kind of kind of similar. I know we're talking about two states here, but I hope this resonates with with more than just the two states, and it sounds like it does.    Jamie Spencer     I think what we're talking about with the advocacy at the local level, it really charges occupational therapy practitioners that they need to be knowledgeable about what's happening, and they need to get involved. Because if you're not going to join the negotiating committee, or if you're not going to say anything to anyone, then you're not having a voice at the table. You need to take your seat, you know, like they say, if you don't have a seat at the table, bring your folding chair. But if you don't educate the decision makers about your role and the fact that you should be equal, that's going to limit the change even more. So we really need people to advocate for themselves and their profession.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, all right, I want to dive into your actual research a little bit here and ask you. A, who did you reach out to? What was the goal for reaching out to people, and what did that end up looking like? And B, what kind of questions did you ask them? What were you trying to trying to get out of these people?    Serena Zeidler     I can tell you a little bit about the the respondents. So we were looking to hear from school based OTs and OT occupational therapists and occupational therapy assistants in New York that have practiced, currently practicing or formally practicing in the schools, working in the in the New York State schools, and we were very fortunate that we had the support from nysoda, New York State Occupational Therapy Association. They posted our survey on their website. Jamie and Kim have a big social media presence, and we really able to get. The survey out there, and we're really fortunate. We had good numbers. We were used able to use the data from 714 occupational therapy practitioners. So of those, 714 600 were currently working in the New York State schools, and 114 were formally working. And we had 92% were occupational therapists, and 8% were occupational therapy assistants. And we had representation from throughout the state, although I think there was greater concentration in New York City and maybe Long Island, but there were respondents from from all the different districts. And, you know, Jamie and I had gone to Albany. Jamie, I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that. You know, it was on the agenda of the nysoda of the OT board to discuss school based practice. And we were able to go to Albany and speak to the board about our concerns. This is, I think, in 2019 and they said, Well, you know, that's interesting, but with your data, does do occupational therapy practitioners? Are they aware what's there? Are they even aware that they're not eligible, and if they were eligible, would they even consider taking the coursework? Would they, you know, do they think they should advocate for these changes? So that's what you know prompted us to move forward with this research so that we would have the data to present to the OT board.    Jayson Davies     Okay, and so you were trying to figure out, a, do people know that they are not able to become administrators? B, do they want to become administrators if they had that opportunity? And then some other relevant information to kind of better understand the perceptions of the NY, New York ot practitioners.     Jamie Spencer     I think we can add a C and say, how does it impact the profession and the children that we aren't leaders like, what's, what are the current trends? And Can we somehow link it back to the fact that we're not allowed to be leaders. All right. I also want to add that we did go to that board meeting in 2019 and they they did say, well, we need the data, and that was what prompted us, like, okay, I guess we're going to have to be researchers, and we'd better become adjunct faculty at a college and learn how to do like it was, however, Serena and I had been advocated. I personally went to nysoda and drove to Albany in 2006 to complain about this and to ask for help and to advocate, but it never occurred to me that we needed to like, what were the steps to get change? And this was something solid that was given to us. Well, give us numbers. Okay.    Jayson Davies     We'll get numbers right.     Serena Zeidler     And I think also, just to clarify that we were, we were interested in finding out about about pursuing educational, administrative coursework required for administrative positions, not necessarily becoming an administrator, but having the option to pursue the coursework. So we wanted to know the respondents level of agreement that they that we should be able to pursue the coursework. You know, do they strongly agree, somewhat agree? You know, do they feel neutral about it? You know, disagree this, you know, strongly disagree. And, oh, the overwhelming majority. I mean, the numbers were pretty high. Almost 95% agreed that we should be able to pursue educational, administrative coursework required for administrative positions. And also, the same thing with being a, should we, should the profession advocate for for policies, you know, so that, so that we would have the opportunity to pursue administrative coursework. And then we, you know, we, you also asked, Should, well, they would you consider, you know, how many would consider pursuing the coursework required for an administrative, educational, administrative position, if the opportunity was available to us, and we had pretty high numbers in that as well. And we we broke the data down for currently working and formally working. And you know of the respondents, of course, the choices were, would consider, would not consider and not sure the you know. So a good amount, almost 40% would consider of the currently working, and almost 46% of the formally working, you know, which led us to we also had questions about barriers to work satisfaction. And have you ever considered leaving? And for those that did consider leaving? The main reasons we presented like 20 different possible choices and the rack of opportunity for a leadership leadership position were within the top three reasons why respondents considered leaving. Yeah,    Jayson Davies     it's a lot. I totally believe it. I mean, that that's one of my top three reasons for for eventually leaving. I mean, it's hard again. This varies from district to district, obviously, state to state, but, you know, over here, you kind of max out. And it's not just maxing out on the pay scale, but you kind of see the end of a pay scale as also being kind of like the maxing out in your career. Like, where do you go from here? And for me, I think at one district there was five steps to maxing out. At another district there were seven steps to maxing out. I know some districts follow a teacher scale, which tends to be a little bit larger 2025 steps. So in that case, you're constantly moving up in air quotes. But yeah, yeah, and I don't know for me, I've had three jobs, three school based ot jobs that I primarily worked at. One was a contract position. I was there for very short term, but as soon as I got into a district like when you only see that there's five steps and no opportunity to really move outside of being an OT practitioner. And again, for nine I don't know for it sounds like 60% of people that's what they want. They want to go in. They want to be a practitioner. They're not really interested about the academic work, but for the 40% of school based ot practitioners, it sounds like you found like that's a barrier to them, and they might potentially go somewhere else, where they can.    Jamie Spencer     Which impact the children, because we're limiting carryover. We're limiting their relationship and rapport with the staff.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and we, I don't know. I don't have the data on hand. I don't know if any of you do, but turnover in public schools is really high, not just for ot practitioners, but for especially in special education, but also general education.     Jamie Spencer     Yeah, was one of the questions that we asked. Like, you know, how long have you been at your current job? And the answers were scattered. But one of the key points that we found in this research was that 96% of the people we interviewed, or I should say, surveyed, they felt strongly that we should advocate for change in legislative policy. So that was an amazing number that we could then bring to our state association, as well as other key stakeholders in our state, like the New York State Education Department and, you know, legislators and people who we can speak to and say, everyone wants this. It was a strong percentage.     Kim Wiggins     I thought, actually, one of the things that I was actually surprised about, and I think is, is key, is a key factor is just the awareness of what people know about what they can and can't do. So, for example, we asked a question like they were asked their level of awareness that people that are considered under the people personnel services like school counselors and psychologists and social workers, are they eligible to pursue the coursework required for administrative positions, and only 34% of the people were completely aware that they were able to pursue it, where 34% were somewhat aware and 31% were not at all aware. So if you're not even aware of what you know you have to do to get to that spot, you know, it's going to be really difficult to move forward with that. So I think just bringing awareness to all OTs across the nation about what they have to do to advocate, or even knowing what they you know, what their particular state allows them to do or not allows them to do, I think is a key factor, too.    Jamie Spencer     And we also thought then, if the practitioners who are working in the field aren't aware we know that the students aren't being educated about it either.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. I was just looking at your your article, and something that really stood out to me was that people don't even fully understand how hiring practices, pay equity and healthcare benefits can all be impacted by the inability to earn a credential and become an administrator. So, yeah, the power of unknown is very powerful.    Kim Wiggins     What I really liked, I think one of I like a lot of things about our research. But one of the things that I little biased there, but one of the things that I really liked is that just completing or filling out our questionnaire, I think, actually brought awareness to people, because we were asking questions that actually, like, triggered thought, like, oh, I actually don't know about that. Or, of course, I want to advocate for this, or, you know, things, you know, they're just different questions that actually just brought more awareness in general. So I think, you know, doing the research, and I have, you know, in all 25 years, only in the last probably 15 years that I've been a presenter have I really had the time, or not even at the time, but looked into research and appreciated research because it is, it's a lot, but the more of us that are doing things like this really make a difference and bring advocacy to our to our profession.    Jaime Spencer      Absolutely, absolutely go ahead. Serena.     Serena Zeidler     I was just thinking about our statistician, and we were really fortunate that we had some funding for this research through the Torah University's Dean's Research Award, and we use some of that funding to consult with a research expert. But we also had access to a statistician because we we had students, the BSMS students, who are involved in our research, and we were really careful to reduce bias as much as we could by asking questions. You know, we wanted to know that, you know, the level of agreement that we should be able to pursue educational, administrative coursework, but we had to be careful how we sequenced the questions, so that it wasn't presented in a way that, you know, that somebody would want something once they learned they didn't have didn't have it, you know, so, but I think we did a pretty good job with that.     Kim Wiggins     Yeah, yes. We were very, very careful of that, because it's it is hard, you know, like not to infuse your opinions in there, right?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, research is not easy, that is for sure. So kudos to you, to the three of you, for taking this on and getting published within a pretty prominent journal within the school based ot realm, for sure, the Journal of Occupational therapy schools and early intervention. I want to talk about what has happened in the year since you published, and maybe in the two years or so since you probably completed this study and before it was published. But the last question I want to ask before we do that is you made sure to include a, OT, a and Essa within this published article, you mentioned, I believe it was the vision 2025 from a OTA. And you talk a little bit about making sure that you kind of connect ot with ESSA. And I just want to give you the the opportunity to share the importance of that and why you did that.    Jamie Spencer     Well, one of the questions was regarding, did they feel that ot has in New York has met the centennial vision, and the centennial vision spoke about leadership. I don't know it off the top of my head, but we asked, you know, do you think that ot in New York has met this and there was mixed responses, but I feel that we have not met it. And so I wanted to put it out there that, you know, Vision 25 vision 2025 says that we are going to be leaders and that we are going to eliminate barriers in the community and like all these wonderful things. But how can we do that if we're not technically allowed to be real leaders. And I listen, I know maybe I could get promoted to like lead OT or something like that, but that doesn't require a certificate. That's not a formal leadership position within the education department. So it's different, and we need the same opportunities as everyone else. We also wanted to highlight the the disconnect between the federal law ESSA, which says that we are important members of the school community and that we are equal with other s, i, s, p, s, which are social workers, psychologists, speech language pathologists, librarians, and then the state law, which has us classified as non instructional, and when we look at who is classified non instructional, it's people who do not work directly with students on their education. It's people in the transportation department and the clerical department and the sanitation department. It's completely different, and we are instructional. The state just hasn't recognized it yet. So we really wanted to point that out, in addition to going to the key stakeholders and aligning the disconnect with their mission statements. So nice and mission statement is about equity, and, you know, advancing people to leadership opportunities and equal opportunities for women, you. At our profession, which is, you know, the majority women were all limited from these opportunities, so we wanted to highlight that as well.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and I can't remember who it was, but one of you mentioned earlier that, in order to really have schools understand our ability to participate in school wide, district wide initiatives under MTSS, we really have to have OTs in place that understand our potential there and be in the administrative role to, you know, point out to an assistant supervisor that, hey, the OT might be the perfect person to help with this social curriculum or or whatnot like that. So, yeah, definitely. Well, let's go ahead, I want to talk a little bit about what's happened since you got this research out into the world published, and also the future implications from here on out. So what has happened in the last year plus, since this was published, and kind of you collected all this data?    Jamie Spencer     a lot. I'm so excited to say that, because if you would ask me a couple of months ago, I would be like, not much has happened, but just recently, a lot of things have actually come to fruition, which is so amazing and wonderful. We presented the information to our state association, and we also presented it to the New York State United Teachers, and they're huge stakeholders in New York State. They have a lot of power. We sent the information over social media. We've really spread the word as to what we found and why this is important. And just recently, nysoda put forth their priorities for the year for school based occupational therapy and getting us categorized under pupil personnel was on there, and they've always been supportive, but they just recently actually put forth legislation to categorize occupational therapy as pupil personnel, also to ask the commissioner of the education department To put forth a guidance document recognizing what occupational therapists in the schools can do, including early intervening, MTSS mental health, all those things, they kind of all tackle the problem. So we're very, very excited about that. And there was another bill that was introduced by Assemblyman Ari Brown, which actually asked for equal pay and career ladder opportunities for occupational physical therapists. So there's been some chatter on social media like, Is this because we're worried about Trump, you know, blowing up the Federal Department of Education, and then the states are going to be scrambling, and who knows why it's happening. We're just so grateful that it is happening. And then some things on the local level as well. There are districts around here in Long Island that have been hiring occupational therapists directly rather than contracting, and they're putting forth ra like putting forth proposals to their representative assemblies, asking for us to be included in the tenure laws and not even realizing, well, we can't be in the tenure law because we're not considered educators. So, you know, there's all this kind of the ripple effect of knowledge.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that's why do you think that you're seeing districts start to hire directly, as opposed to contract positions?     Jamie Spencer     I think they're recognizing the value of occupational therapy more, and also recognizing the cons of contract therapists, how they don't have the time to collaborate as much with the staff, and, you know, really be a part of the school community, and there is high turnover, because a lot of contract therapists aren't they don't love that, or they are just put in a different building the following year, and they're just not included in everything, including professional development opportunities and districts who understand what we do are making changes.     Kim Wiggins     I actually think one of the biggest issues is MTSS, I think that when we have contracted therapists in the schools, they really can participate in MTSS as well, because it's not a billable service, and that's often how they're getting paid. And also, you know, you can't just, you know, a therapist like as a district, I was gonna say, district owned. That's not the right word. A district employee, you can just walk into a first grade classroom and provide tier one interventions or suggestions or ideas, and the same with tier two interventions, but as a contract therapist, you just can't. And so I think that, you know, administrators and school districts are noticing that, wow, maybe we could nip more things in the bud as far as, like, helping as many kids as possible. If these OTs or PTS are participating in MTSS tier one and tier two. But when they're a contract, they just can't do that. They're just not able to do it as much there. I'm sure there's cases where they They do, yeah, you know, whatever? Contract they've come up with, but it's, it's rare it's not, and I don't think that's just New York. I think that's across, I think that's across the United States. Yeah,    Jayson Davies     I mean, I think it's, I've seen in some districts where the contract at OT is almost, basically an in house OT, and that's just the way that the contract with the agency works. But I think in more cases than not, than not, it's more like what you talked about Kim, where you know they're they're getting paid by the half hour session, and that's got to be a billable session, otherwise no one's getting paid. And in that case, right? You want to, you're going to optimize your time toward billable sessions, right?    Kim Wiggins     And more, and there's more instances of pull out and less inclusion and and, you know, you don't have the chance to, like, talk to the teacher and figure out when is the best time for me to push into the classroom. I can come to, like, contract therapist. I can come to this school on Mondays and Wednesdays from 10 to 12, you know. And so you can't always push into the most, the best, particular spot in the school you can't push into art, you know, because art is, it might be changing every single day, or what's the time. So, yeah, I think, I think that's a huge piece of it, too. And I, I am and happy with the states and the districts that are starting to hire therapists, because it really does help with our professionals. Definitely.    Jayson Davies     So now that you did this research, what else would you like to know? Like, I don't know. Maybe you're already working on some further research. I don't know that yet, but what would you like to know? What did you not learn in this research that you're like, Darn, we should have asked this question. Or, I guess, what's that next step for you in terms of information that you wish you had, or maybe you're looking for already.     Jamie Spencer     So we actually did another we did this identical study. We had to change some of the questions a little bit regarding physical therapy. We didn't have as many respondents, but we had, I think, I think it was over 100 maybe 109 is sticking out my head. And we had similar results. We didn't write it up, and I did present the information at the A ot children and youth conference last year. But we're not finding that. We're not finding physical therapists like us who are passionately fighting about it. So I would love for PT to get on board with this fight. We also had thought about possibly surveying school administrators about their knowledge about occupational therapists and what we can do, but we actually did put that survey out there, and we had hardly any respondents. So it wasn't, it just wasn't Yeah, can I just anything you could grab on to?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I that's one that I've been very interested in and in on. And I did find one article a while ago, but it was a little dated, and they also had trouble, you know, getting a hold of School Administrators. I think one that I saw, they actually did a focus group with school administrators, which was very eye opening, yes,    Jamie Spencer     and they interviewed them, right? Yeah, yes, I read that article,    Jayson Davies     but yeah, no, I think it's going to be key if we want to convince administrators and education, you know, experts, that we belong in the similar world as them in the educational world, we're going to need to have their input on it, because, you know, I could see you, all three of you, driving down to Albany and them saying, great, cool, you have ot data now. Where's the data that says teachers want you to be part of the team? Where's the data the school administrators want you to be part of the team. And I think that's going to be important for for us to have. And I know there's some are, there are some articles out there about it, and everyone that I've read it's been very positive in relationship to teachers wanting support from OTs and admin wanting support from OTs. It's just a matter of making it happen. Yes, agreed. So any other next steps that you're hoping for? Are you? Are you heading to helping you to share these results with them? Or have you shared it with the New York Education Board, or anything like that yet? Or is that the plan? Or, well,    Jamie Spencer     I'm on the New York State Education Department occupational therapy board, and I did share the information with them and bring it up as a as an issue in the profession. It's a difficult situation, because when you're on the board, you're not necessarily supposed to be promoting changes to legislation and all the things like that. You're supposed to be there to advise the board. But my my take on that was, well, I want to advise the board that there's a major issue in the profession, and it's, you know, we keep trying to talk to the Education Department, and nysoda has reached out and even had a meeting with ot a to meet with the education department about the state of the profession, and this was years ago, and they wouldn't even really entertain it. They wouldn't even take meetings with us or anything like that. So I. I do feel right now, New York State has a new executive director of the occupational therapy board of the Education Department of New York, and it's such a long term but yeah, it's not, it's not the professional association, it's the OT board of the State Education Department. We have a new executive director, and she's very knowledgeable about occupational therapy, she's been very open to listening, and I feel that we're being heard, and it's the whole board. We're all in agreement that this is a topic that's coming up again and again, and that it's impacting the children, and it's impacting the profession and our ability to influence our unique skill set to help the children.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And I think my, my final wrap up question here is really going to be like related to everyone listening here, and they've got this research potentially in front of them. I know, I know not everyone has access to the Journal of Occupational therapy schools and early intervention, but if you have access to a school that does have access to it, be sure to get this, download it, save it to your computer, keep it or at least go get the abstract. But yeah, what? What is your hope that someone an occupational therapy practitioner you know, or maybe even an administrator or a teacher that's reading this article? What is your hope that they'll do with this information?    Serena Zeidler     Well, I think reading the article is going to open their eyes. They not may not even be aware that this is an issue, that this is a problem. And I think that's helpful in and of itself, you know, to understand that we're not eligible to pursue educational administrative coursework. We're not educationally credentialed. Of course, our research focused on New York, but to me, the first step is to become part of the Office of Teaching initiatives and the category pupil personnel, similar to school social workers and school psychologists. And you know, if somebody's reading this article, maybe would kind of open up their eyes to this issue. And in the article, we talk about how it impacts the students, it impacts the whole school community. And maybe if somebody's reading it, they'll realize, you know, what this is impacting my school as well. And, you know, talk to your state association. I think that's always a good start. I mean, we had, we had done this years ago, back in 2009 we had written Jamie and I and two other OTs wrote to the State Education Department, the Commissioner, we wanted to find out about, how do we become pupil personnel. And, you know, we basically were told we're not instructional, we're not pedagogical. And then we went to nysoda. Nysoda folks at that point in time were totally, you know, different professional, different OTs than they are now. And you know it, it's just been a really long process, but I think, you know, going to your state association, talking to OT other OTs, maybe getting involved with a university, and, you know, doing this, getting involved in doing a study, like we did. I mean, this, our study focused on New York State, but it could be generalized to any of the other states as as well.     Jamie Spencer     And I know I think people who are who are completely unaware, or who are not involved in the advocacy, like I've had a lot of OTs say to me like, oh, good for you, that you advocate. I'm not. I'm so out of the loop. And they're not. Those are not going to be the people that are then going to go contact their state association because they don't feel like they know it well enough to speak to it. But even just telling your ot bestie, did you read this article? Did you see what it says and the things that we're talking about, we've we've cited the research behind that. We've cited that OT is historically misunderstood. We've cited that the mission statement of the education department is A, B and C. So at least to give them talking points, you can't advocate without being knowledgeable. So at least this can provide a foundation of the problem and possible solutions.     Jayson Davies     Yeah. And you also never know when you'll be at a holiday party with the principal or superintendent or, yeah, or,    Jamie Spencer     you know, somebody even more important.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. I would love, by the way, you all shared a few stories about administrators that you know. I would love for those administrators to put out their stories OTs practitioners that have become an administrator. I would love for them to share their stories in the OT practice or in the Asia, somehow or anywhere that they can publish anything. I think that would be really powerful for others to see what that has looked like, what they've been able to do as a result of becoming an administrator. Sure,    Jamie Spencer     good point.     Kim Wiggins     That's a great that's a great idea.    Jamie Spencer     There. Actually, there is an article in OT practice a few years back, Jan Hollenback wrote it with a couple of other occupational therapy practitioners, and it did describe their pathway to become leaders. But each one was unique, and it was just a few people, but still, yeah,    Jayson Davies     yeah. I would love to see like one published every year. I don't know that's that may not be realistic, but it would be awesome. All right, Kim, we'll end off with you. What's one thing that you're hoping you know that an OT practitioner reads this article and takes away and maybe they take an action, maybe they don't, but what do you hope that they get from this?    Kim Wiggins     I think my biggest thing, and I've mentioned it a couple times today already, is just awareness. Like Serena said, like, I really believe that the more aware we are as therapists and in the school setting, the better it's going to be, the easier it's going to be for us to advocate. So if, like, I think that number that I shared earlier that people just weren't even aware that it wasn't that it was an issue. Is is a lot, because I think that if we are aware, we'll be able to advocate to our administrators, to our teacher friends, and, you know, OTs are typically very well loved people in the school like we, we really try to help as many people as possible in so many areas. And I really think that all of our colleagues would appreciate that, you know, for us, you know, and cheer us on and and want us to succeed and be able to move forward. I know that in all the schools that I've worked with, it's, you know, the OTs are often the glue, you know, to a lot of the other professions. And so I think that other people see it too. And so just having that awareness, I think, is a really important piece. And so I'm hoping, I'm hoping that that increases after they read it,    Jayson Davies     Kim, you just brought back some great memories of my profession, like just being at the IEP and kind of being that person that kind of hurt. The parent, heard the teacher, heard the administrator, and was kind of able to synthesize it a little bit and get everyone on that same page. Like I don't know that that is something that OTs practitioners, we do pretty well. I think we're good at listening. We're good at observing behavior and kind of keying into important things in each person's life and what they want for the child, and kind of bringing that together. I think that's a great point, and it's also why we might make, yeah, exactly, and it's why we might make great IEP team leaders as an assistant principal, special education provider, something like that. So, yep, superintendent, I have not sat in on an IEP with the superintendent at JP, Jamie and I hope I never will, but that said there's a lot of meetings that they do sit in on that are obviously very important, that an OT practitioner would be a welcome site. So absolutely, thank you all so much for being here. Serena, really appreciate you being here. Kim, appreciate you being here. And Jamie, as always, you're always welcome on the podcast, all three of you, but Jamie, been here before. Thank you all so much. We appreciate it, and we'll definitely keep in touch on your research. Thanks again.    Serena Zeidler     Thank you. Thank you for having us.     Kim Wiggins     Thank you.     Jaime Spencer     Thank you for helping us share the information.    Jayson Davies     All right, that is going to wrap up episode number 173 of the OT school house podcast, I want to extend a very heartfelt thank you to our incredible guest, Jamie Spencer, Kim Wiggins and Serena Zeiler. If you have any questions, well, first and foremost, go check out the research. I will link to it in the show notes. But if you do have questions beyond that, reach out to Jamie Kim and Serena on LinkedIn. Or if you know how to get in touch with them, they're pretty easy people to get in touch with, so give them an email if you have a question, or maybe you want to help out with research, I'm sure they would love to collaborate to make maybe a similar survey happen in your state, or maybe to use their research within your state to get things going. They would love to help you advocate for administrators or for OTs to become administrators in your state. All right. So with that, thank you so much for tuning in. Really appreciate it, and we'll see you next time on the OT squad podcast, take care.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com . Until next time class is dismissed Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 173 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In this episode, Jayson has a compelling conversation with guests Jaime, Kim, and Serena. They discuss their research on the barriers and opportunities for OTP’s aspiring to leadership positions within the educational system.  Discover the historical and legislative challenges OTPs face, the vast impact on school communities, and the innovative ways states are beginning to address these issues. With engaging insights and passionate advocacy, this episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in transforming the role of OTs in schools and ensuring their potential is fully realized for the benefit of students and educators. Listen now to learn the following objectives: Learners will be able to explain how historical perceptions of OTs influence their current exclusion from leadership roles in education.
Learners will identify legislative and credentialing differences that affect OT administrative eligibility across the U.S.
Learners will identify the barriers that prevent OTs from being recognized as instructional staff in various states. Guests Bio Kim Wiggins, OTR/L is an experienced occupational therapist specializing in pediatrics who has worked extensively in public school settings, outpatient, and home-based services to children of all ages with a variety of diagnoses and special needs.   Kim is currently a full-time therapist at the Binghamton City School District and the owner of OTKimWiggins LLC, which primarily focuses on providing educational opportunities for parents and professionals. She is an experienced National program developer who has produced and presented training workshops and seminars on a variety of topics related to handwriting, vision, primitive reflexes, sensory techniques, and technology to therapists, teachers, administrators, and parents,  She has presented to audiences nationwide since 2010. She is also the co-author of Just Right! A Sensory Modulation Curriculum for K-5. Jaime Spencer, MEd, OTR/L is a school-based occupational therapist and passionate educational advocate. With a Master’s in Special Education and specialty certifications in Assistive Technology, Handwriting, and PuzzleArt, she works to elevate the role of OTs in school systems. Jaime is the founder of MissJaimeOT.com and author of several books, including The Handwriting Book  and FUNctional Visual Perception . She also leads multiple grassroots advocacy groups across the U.S. focused on improving school-based OT services and expanding leadership pathways for practitioners. Serena S. Zeidle, OTD, OTR/L has over 40 years of experience that includes clinical and school-based practice, and higher education. At the time of this research, Serena was a full-time assistant professor at Tauro University. NY. Serena is a passionate advocate for school-based occupational therapy practitioners and has presented locally and nationally on this topic Quotes "We are not allowed to be leaders because in most states, we're not considered educational or instructional." Jaime spencer, MEd, OTR/L "We have a unique skill set and a different holistic viewpoint, and we have a very creative mindset, and we think outside the box, and we come up with unique alternatives that I think a lot of school administrators would not think of, because they don't have the background that we have." -Jaime spencer, MEd, OTR/L "Awareness of what people know of what they can and can’t do…only 34% of the people were completely aware that they were able to pursue it, so if you're not even aware of what you have to do to get to that spot, it's gonna be really difficult to move forward with that…bringing awareness to all OTs across the nation about what they have to do to advocate is a key factor." - Kim Wiggins, OTR/L “People don't even fully understand how hiring practices, pay equity, and health care benefits can all be impacted by the inability to earn a credential and become an administrator. The power of the unknown is very powerful.” -Jayson Davies, M.A., OTR/L “Going to your state association, talking to other OTs, maybe getting involved with a university in doing a study like we did. Our study focused on New York state, but it could be generalized to any of the other states.” -Serena S Zeidler, OTD, OTR/L Resources 👉Article Title:  Perceptions of occupational therapy practitioners as leaders within the New York state education system 👉Article Title: Examining Occupational Therapists as Potential Special Education Leaders NYSOTA (New York State Occupational Therapy Association) 👉 ESSA (Every Student Succeeds Act) 👉 Centennial Vision   👉 Vision 2025 👉 Kim Wiggins Website 👉 Miss Jaime Website 👉 Serena's Information Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Jayson Davies     Hello friend. Welcome to Episode 173 of the OT school house podcast. Thanks for being here. As you may know, I'm a huge advocate for ot practitioners having a route to leadership roles in the school setting is something that I once wanted to do even, and our ability to be leaders in a school department I believe is long overdue. Myself and many others have spent a ton of time and energy attempting to make this possible. Unfortunately, though, we have a lot of advocating still to do, and this often has to happen on a state by state basis, so there is still a lot of work that we have to do and make this possible. That's why, on the podcast today, I've invited three therapists who when challenged on the matter of OTs in leadership within their state, they stepped up and completed a research survey to help all of us demonstrate why we would make great leaders in our districts. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast Jamie Spencer Kim Wiggins and Serena Zeidler together. Kim Jamie and Serena conducted some much needed research into the perceptions of occupational therapy practitioners as leaders within the New York State Education System. Their findings and insights challenged the status quo and spark powerful conversations that we're going to have today about the roles that we can play and the impacts that we can have at an administrative level. Now I know you might be thinking to yourself, Jayson, I don't want to be an admin and sit in meetings all day. That is not why I got in to OT, and I get that, but I also know that there are some ot practitioners who would love to be administrators and have an impact on not just the OT department, but also maybe even your entire district as a whole. I mean, wouldn't it be awesome if we just could have an occupational therapy practitioner as the director of special education or pupil services, or maybe in some other amazing role that they could have a huge impact in. Well, to have this conversation and to better understand the research, let's go ahead and dive in with Jamie Serena and Kim to hear what they uncovered within their research and what the next steps are now that we have it.    Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jason Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Jamie Kim and Serena, welcome to the OT school house podcast. How are you all doing today?     Jamie Spencer     Great.    Kim Wiggins     Great.    Serena Zeidler     Great. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for your interest in our research.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, I am excited. Your research actually just dropped about a year ago. We're right at the one year anniversary, I believe, from the published state. And the name of that article is perceptions of occupational therapy practitioners as leaders within the New York State education system. And yes, while it does have New York State education system in the title of the article, as well as I know you all know, and everyone else should know that this is about much more than just the state of New York. So let's go ahead and dive right into that discussion and to get things started right at the top here, let's just dive into the problem. Jamie, what do you see as the main reason, or the collection of reason that we are here, where we are today, where so many ot practitioners are not allowed to be leaders within a school system?    Jamie Spencer     Okay, well, there are a lot of answers, but first, we are not allowed to be leaders, because in most states, we're not considered educational or instructional. And the reason we're not considered educational or instructional is because when the education laws came about that required schools to provide occupational therapy for students who need it, for students with special needs. All of the OTs at that point were medical, and the schools were kind of tasked with hurry. We need to hire OTs to service these students right away, because the law says we do. And so where did they get those occupational therapists from the medical setting? So the OTs came over and they were using their medical know how, and they were widely considered to be medical professionals, and that's how they practice for a very long time. But since then, the education laws have updated dramatically, and our role has changed significantly. So we really are educational, but most states have not updated their legislation to categorize us as So.     Jayson Davies     Absolutely. and I think all of us here, and we talked about on the podcast before with ESSA, especially in 2015 that really kind of ingrained us into. To the educational world, as opposed to an outsider medical professional coming in and and I think we're going to talk more about that a little bit, but Kim Serena, or even Jamie again. Would you like to add on your thoughts as to, you know, why ot practitioners, you know, in today's day and age, aren't really looked as being, I guess, qualified for a leadership position?    Serena Zeidler     Yes. So when we did our research, John sauvignate Kirsch from Connecticut, her research indicated which states have educational credentialing for OTs. And then we our research was a few years later, and there were a few changes, and what we found was that the states of Colorado, New Jersey, Ohio, Washington and Massachusetts, which sort of has a back door way of educational credentialing, are now the five states that, To the best of our knowledge, OTs have the opportunity, if they choose, to take the coursework to obtain an educational administrative certificate. So in New York State, in order to take the coursework to become an administrator, you have to have be educationally credentialed, which we are not in New York. So I think there's and different states call this different things, like in New York, it's educational credentialing. I mean, in other states, they call it different things, but it all really comes down to not having that recognition    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. And that's similar to here in California. We've had this discussion before with Jamie and others on this podcast, that in California, we're having the same problem, and we're trying to overcome that hurdle, and we're having to be persistent about it. We're having to be creative about it, and I'm sure we'll dive more into that in a bit. One of the things that you really pointed out in your answer, though, Serena, was that there are states that do only a handful, but that also means that there are states that don't. This is not necessarily a country wide issue. It sounds like it's more of a state by state issue. Does that seem correct in what I'm saying based upon your findings, or do we feel like this is a larger or maybe it's not, but it should be a larger federal issue that needs to be kind of handled at a more broader issue? Does that make sense?     Jaime Spencer     Well, it's definitely a national issue, and there are a few states that allow occupational therapists to become leaders and really infuse their flavor and their holistic mindset into the school community. But it is also a state by state issue, because each state's legislation, and Serena said it perfectly, is a little bit different. So if I wanted to tell everybody, the big problem is that, for the most part, we're not considered educators. We're not considered instructional, but in each state, that might be worded differently, and the solution to the problem might be a different pathway, depending on the way the state has it set up.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha, okay, so, yeah, I mean, we're all gonna have to tackle this. It sounds like state by state. It's not like one mass legislation is gonna go through in Washington, DC, and make this problem all go away. It sounds like we're going to have to work at this state by state. Correct?     Jaime Spencer     Yes, but we're hoping that we can start an avalanche where one state will pass the law and the other one will also pass the law, and then little by little by little, and that we can all help each other to do that with, you know, educating each other on what we've tried and what key stakeholders we worked with, and what wording we used, and all of that.    Kim Wiggins     I think the other important piece too is that once that happens, then all of the OT schools need to start adding the coursework to their to their curriculum, and move towards that. Because I think that's something that we found in our research too, is that some of the states actually have that coursework included, so then they get kind of like a credential, like a certificate, just like the school counselors do and the psychologists. So it's, it's something that there's lots of steps to that we have to really consider,    Serena Zeidler     yes, that's, I think that's really a really important point to make in our research, we did interview an OT from the state of Washington who basically explained the process to us, and then she referred us to another ot who kindly let us interview her, who went through the process of becoming an administrator, she was eligible to take the coursework and so basically to just piggyback off what Kim said, there are two, she talked about, two schools in the state of Washington. One has that coursework. That Kim talked about, and the other one doesn't. So students graduate from the program that has that coursework, they're, I'm sorry, they're automatically considered educational staff associate, along with other related service providers, like school psychologists, school social workers. So any related service provider in the state of Washington needs to have that educational staff associate credential. Now let's say Jayson, you decide to move to the state of Washington and want to work in the schools, you would then have to take a coursework. And this administrator, it kind of indicated short course. She thought that you can do it online, but anybody that is a related service provider that wants to work in the schools needs to be in the state of Washington and educational staff associate, I hope I have this right, yeah, yes, so and this OT, who took the administrative coursework became a school director, director of special education and secondary program, so it worked out very well for her. But I think it is different in every state. In New York, we have, we're licensed through the office of the professions, but there is also the New York State Education Department, Office of the Teach of teaching initiatives, Office of Teaching initiatives. Ot i and they issue certificates in three categories, to administrators, to teachers and to pupil personnel services or service providers, school psychologists, school social workers, even I believe, master's level nurses, guidance counselors, but we're not in there. Neither is PT, and that's considered an educational credential. And you have to have an educational credential in order to be able to take the coursework to become a school administrator. So that's what we're looking to do. We kind of feel like we would like to follow the path of school social workers, you know, that are educationally credentialed and hold that certificate through the Office of Teaching initiatives. Does that make sense? Yeah,    Jayson Davies     absolutely. I mean, New York and California, sometimes we tend to be similar. And it sounds like it. In this case, it's relatively similar. You know, we're licensed by the state of California as an OT practitioner, but the whole educational side of things is kind of disconnected from the regular licensure, because they have certifications, right or credentials, sorry, not licenses. And same type of thing here. Speech Therapists, you know, they get their C's, and they can be administrators. School psychologists can be administrators, but PTs and OTs can't, because we are licensed on the other side of the government. If you want to kind of segment it that way, I sometimes tell people that if I was able to get a school administrative credential, the OT school house may not exist, because that was my initial long term strategy was to try to figure out how to become an administrator. And I found out that I would have had to go back to school for like five years, get a credential, work for five years, then, because you have to have an experience in order to apply to the admin credential. So it would have taken me like eight years or something like that, to go back and start from scratch, which is just insane, but yeah, here we are. So from what I've heard you all say exact same experience. Jayson, right? It's, it's very unfortunate. So it's great to hear that in five states, you know, they've got this figured out, but it sounds like, from what we've started with here today, there's a few primary problems, Jamie kind of started us off with. We weren't at the table at the right time, when all this was being discussed. We weren't at the table. Kim and Serena, you both brought up the education aspects that you know, we're not necessarily educated as educators. We're educated as medical professionals, and so there's a little bit of that. Then we also talked about the government side of things, where it's just education. Is often its own part of each state's education, right? Each state has a Department of Education, and OTs are not in that department really, like we're not ingrained into that department yet. I think I kind of summarize what we talked about so far in those three but are there any other key areas that we want to talk about as a problem before we move    Jamie Spencer     on. I think you can't not think of the effect. So that's a pro. Those are the main problems, but the trickle down effects of occupational therapists not being allowed to be leaders is just tremendous in terms of everything, in terms of who it affects, how it affects the school community, how it affects the profession, how it affects the stakeholders, the community. I mean you, you name it, and it's just limitless,    Jayson Davies     perfect. And that's exactly where I wanted to go to go next. Because obviously, when we think about this, ot practitioners, we are so unselfish. But at the same time here like it almost feels a little. Little selfish to be advocating for ourselves to be administrators, right? Like we want to be an administrator, that's like we need to be administrators. But it's not just about us. It is about the other stakeholders. So Jamie Kim, maybe one of you want to go a little bit deep into the stakeholders, who are the stakeholders that we might not always think about.    Kim Wiggins     Well, I think that so for I just wanted to also point out, like I actually don't have an interest in being an administrator, but I want, I want to have the opportunity for my colleagues to be administrators, right? And I think that that's super important. So the other stakeholders that are really impacted by all of this is the teachers, right, the NYSED or the education departments. We have all of our advocacy organizations for all of our states, you know, like so in New York, like nysoda, Nyssa, and then obviously the parents and the school community, like everybody involved really is impacted by the OTs not being having the leadership roles in the education system,    Jayson Davies     okay? And so to kind of go a little bit further deeper into that, in what way, like what way would as us being into the administration community, whether it's a assistant principal, a principal or a director or superintendent. What are some of those barriers that we're hoping to overcome so that we can have have an impact on all of those stakeholders?    Jaime Spencer     Well, I think you know when you work, when you work for a school and you're a member of the school community for a little while, you wish to establish a rapport with your colleagues, and you learn from each other, and you learn what a teacher does and how a teacher runs her room, and they learn what you bring to the table. The same would happen if OTs were at the administrative table. We have a unique skill set and a different holistic viewpoint, and we have a very, very creative mindset, and we think outside the box, and we come up with unique alternatives that I think a lot of school administrators would not think of because they don't have the background that we have, and because we're not at that table, we're not at the pro we're not A part of the problem solving teams. We can't show how great our profession is, and that, you know, because of that, administrators don't know exactly what we do, and it just goes on and on. So they don't include the OT and the flexible seating committee, or they don't include the OT in the social emotional learning curriculum development, because they don't think that they don't really know what we do.    Jayson Davies     And serene, if I come back to you, it sounds like you had the opportunity to kind of at least learn about someone who has been in this role and in that case, and this could be a for all of you as well. But from the people that have been in that role, what have they been able to accomplish as an administrator that maybe others weren't able to do like Jamie was talking about, because they aren't in that administrative position?    Serena Zeidler     Well, the administrator that we had interviewed had indicated that she wasn't so much interested in being a school principal, because she wasn't had that hadn't had the experience being a classroom teacher, but she was interested in being a director of special ed, which is, which is what she did. And I think if you know, for even us OTs like you know Kim, that maybe are not interested in securing a leadership position, you know, in the schools, we still may really value having a highly qualified ot in an administrative role, you know, because we want to be recognized and valued and utilized for our full scope of practice, including areas that we saw in our survey. You know, in the results that OTs are not fully, you know, utilizing like MTSS and mental health and health promotion, but if an OT was is there as an administrator, they would, they would be more likely, in our opinion, to recognize our value and utilize us for our full scope of practice.    Jamie Spencer     In Ohio, I actually presented last summer with Kim at the school based conference, and my presentation was about how in Ohio you have these opportunities, so you should take them, because in so many other you know, states, they don't have those opportunities. And I highlighted the success stories of a couple of wonderful occupational therapy leaders that did make a big difference as leaders. So one of them was Kareem Robbins, and she pitched the idea to her district that she should be the coordinator of all the related services. Services, and she wrote it out like a business plan, that we need this position, like, let's create this position. And she got it, and she moved up, and she said that one of the key benefits of her being a leader was that she was able to link the state licensure board to the educational law, and that this was a crucial point, because a teacher who became the special ed director could not do that as well as a related service provider. So it was very cool to hear the success stories of occupational therapy practitioners who did achieve wonderful things as a leader.    Jayson Davies     I think that's a really good point that I've never really thought about Jamie, because we often see school based ot practitioners that get a little conflicted by what the licensure of their state ot license says and what they're being asked upon within the schools. You know, schools might be asking them to document one way or not document because they're trying to save time and the licensing board says you need to document every service you need to do this and that for documentation. Same thing when it comes to evaluations, right? The schools might be trying to cut corners by decrease the expectation of an evaluation when the licensure board says a full evaluation looks like this and you need to do all those pieces. And I could go on and on, but I never really thought about it from that perspective. So that's a really    Jamie Spencer     good point. Yeah, I also interviewed Cheryl van hoose, and she's actually a PT, so shout out to the PTS who also don't have leadership opportunities. But in Ohio, she ended up advancing and advancing and became the liaison between the Ohio Physical Therapy Association and the Ohio Department of Education. So that's huge.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, a lot of.    Jamie Spencer     one of the key quotes that she said was that OTs and PTs have the foundational knowledge that can help kids learn. And I just loved that quote from her.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and it opens up a lot of opportunities. And like I know, a lot of OTs would really appreciate ot practitioners. OTs included, of course, would love if their boss was just an OT and understood their job. And we don't have that fortunate aspect in most of our jobs. Whether or not we are a direct hire in the school district or if we're a contracted therapist. We might have someone, we might have someone who guides us from the contracting position agency, but they're not a direct employee of the school, and therefore they don't know our exact needs, our expectations, you know, our ambitions, and how we can support all the kids. So definitely having someone above us that actually knows what we do right would be really nice.     Kim Wiggins     I was just going to say that actually, I think in 25 years as an OT in various different positions and and schools, I've never had an administrator that was a related service provider. And you can and either have my colleagues and so when we have our our related service staff meetings that are being run and organized by whatever their backgrounds are, if they're teachers, typically, most of them have been teachers that have moved up to it being administrators. It's really hard. It's almost like we're educating them about what OT is first in order for them to be able to help us make decisions that we already have, you know, we think that we have really good answers to or solutions to, but we have to do all this educating and all this extra work before we can get any impact, you know. And so I think that that is a huge it would be a huge benefit to have related service providers as administrators, and I have been in situations where I know my speech pathologist friends have moved up to be administrators, and we're always like, cheering them on, and that's awesome, but it's really a matter of like, you're the people. Are people, and everybody has different qualities and strengths that they can use to be an administrator. So being an OT or a PT or a speech therapist or a teacher, becoming an administrator, I think it, I think it really just depends on the person you know, and why don't we have that chance? It just gives it. We need to have that chance and that option.    Jayson Davies     I'm gonna bring up one more thing that we've seen, at least here in California, in terms of why people are concerned about us looking toward an administrator credential. And I don't know if you can speak to this or not, but I'm going to throw it out there, because we've had people being very and I completely understand why, but we've had people very interested in what is going to happen to either a their status in or not inside of a union as part of an administrative credentialing being changed. That process being changed, and also their retirement. They're worried that they might be reclassified from non credential to credential or in other way, and that could impact the retirement. Right? Obviously, at least in California, I'll say it's not obviously, obvious everywhere, but in California, if you are in the school system, it's your pretty good retirement. Like, they're known for having good retirements in the public school system here, I don't know if that's everywhere, but people are worried about that, right? Like, don't mess with people's retirement, right? From your experience, have you heard anything about that? Is that come up with others or from yourself? Like, is that a perspective that you've looked at?     Kim Wiggins     I think that it's been I've noticed that it's pretty inconsistent. Like, I only can speak for New York, and even within New York, there are OTs that are in the teachers union, and have, they're obviously not in the Teacher's Retirement, but they're in the state retirement, which is very similar. And then there's OTs in New York that are not in the Union, and they, they're just, it just seems to be very, very inconsistent. And that just seems wrong, you know, like it just doesn't make sense to me. Like Jamie, you can speak to your personal experience too    Jamie Spencer     Well, to answer your question. Jayson, I do think that there are occupational therapists who are very concerned about that, and rightly so. But it wouldn't just be like a chop, chop. This is what we're doing. You know, there would have to be a whole transition plan and a process, and it's certainly, you know, we're looking to have equity. We're not looking to harm the profession or the professionals. We want to create opportunities for them so that they have equal opportunities to the rest of the educational staff. So the state or the United you know, the teachers associations, who have all the key stakeholders, would really need to put a smooth transition plan in place so that it wouldn't be harmful, but it's, you know, of course, everyone's going to have concerns. But what I always say, and like Kim said, in New York, things are very varied, from upstate to downstate to the city. We all have a different story, but we all have. A lot of us have similar problems, but different stories, but it doesn't really matter, because if this law changes, I can't tell you what's going to happen to Susie Jones in district two in Building C, with her principal, Mr. Smith, like I don't know, and I just hope that it works out, and there's going to be glitches and there's going to be bumps in the road, but for the profession as a whole, it's just not best practice the way things are right now, and we need to not be scared of change, because change can be a wonderful thing.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And, and I've heard as well that a lot of those decisions on what union you're in and what retirement you're classified are really more done at the even local or area than just the state. And like Kim was saying, right, it's very different. Some people are in the teachers union. Some are not. That's the same thing here in California, and it sounds like that's more related to how the district, the individual district, has decided to classify OTs, as opposed to the state classified OTs in a way that would be impacted by an administrative credential or educational credential. So yeah, kind of kind of similar. I know we're talking about two states here, but I hope this resonates with with more than just the two states, and it sounds like it does.    Jamie Spencer     I think what we're talking about with the advocacy at the local level, it really charges occupational therapy practitioners that they need to be knowledgeable about what's happening, and they need to get involved. Because if you're not going to join the negotiating committee, or if you're not going to say anything to anyone, then you're not having a voice at the table. You need to take your seat, you know, like they say, if you don't have a seat at the table, bring your folding chair. But if you don't educate the decision makers about your role and the fact that you should be equal, that's going to limit the change even more. So we really need people to advocate for themselves and their profession.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, all right, I want to dive into your actual research a little bit here and ask you. A, who did you reach out to? What was the goal for reaching out to people, and what did that end up looking like? And B, what kind of questions did you ask them? What were you trying to trying to get out of these people?    Serena Zeidler     I can tell you a little bit about the the respondents. So we were looking to hear from school based OTs and OT occupational therapists and occupational therapy assistants in New York that have practiced, currently practicing or formally practicing in the schools, working in the in the New York State schools, and we were very fortunate that we had the support from nysoda, New York State Occupational Therapy Association. They posted our survey on their website. Jamie and Kim have a big social media presence, and we really able to get. The survey out there, and we're really fortunate. We had good numbers. We were used able to use the data from 714 occupational therapy practitioners. So of those, 714 600 were currently working in the New York State schools, and 114 were formally working. And we had 92% were occupational therapists, and 8% were occupational therapy assistants. And we had representation from throughout the state, although I think there was greater concentration in New York City and maybe Long Island, but there were respondents from from all the different districts. And, you know, Jamie and I had gone to Albany. Jamie, I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that. You know, it was on the agenda of the nysoda of the OT board to discuss school based practice. And we were able to go to Albany and speak to the board about our concerns. This is, I think, in 2019 and they said, Well, you know, that's interesting, but with your data, does do occupational therapy practitioners? Are they aware what's there? Are they even aware that they're not eligible, and if they were eligible, would they even consider taking the coursework? Would they, you know, do they think they should advocate for these changes? So that's what you know prompted us to move forward with this research so that we would have the data to present to the OT board.    Jayson Davies     Okay, and so you were trying to figure out, a, do people know that they are not able to become administrators? B, do they want to become administrators if they had that opportunity? And then some other relevant information to kind of better understand the perceptions of the NY, New York ot practitioners.     Jamie Spencer     I think we can add a C and say, how does it impact the profession and the children that we aren't leaders like, what's, what are the current trends? And Can we somehow link it back to the fact that we're not allowed to be leaders. All right. I also want to add that we did go to that board meeting in 2019 and they they did say, well, we need the data, and that was what prompted us, like, okay, I guess we're going to have to be researchers, and we'd better become adjunct faculty at a college and learn how to do like it was, however, Serena and I had been advocated. I personally went to nysoda and drove to Albany in 2006 to complain about this and to ask for help and to advocate, but it never occurred to me that we needed to like, what were the steps to get change? And this was something solid that was given to us. Well, give us numbers. Okay.    Jayson Davies     We'll get numbers right.     Serena Zeidler     And I think also, just to clarify that we were, we were interested in finding out about about pursuing educational, administrative coursework required for administrative positions, not necessarily becoming an administrator, but having the option to pursue the coursework. So we wanted to know the respondents level of agreement that they that we should be able to pursue the coursework. You know, do they strongly agree, somewhat agree? You know, do they feel neutral about it? You know, disagree this, you know, strongly disagree. And, oh, the overwhelming majority. I mean, the numbers were pretty high. Almost 95% agreed that we should be able to pursue educational, administrative coursework required for administrative positions. And also, the same thing with being a, should we, should the profession advocate for for policies, you know, so that, so that we would have the opportunity to pursue administrative coursework. And then we, you know, we, you also asked, Should, well, they would you consider, you know, how many would consider pursuing the coursework required for an administrative, educational, administrative position, if the opportunity was available to us, and we had pretty high numbers in that as well. And we we broke the data down for currently working and formally working. And you know of the respondents, of course, the choices were, would consider, would not consider and not sure the you know. So a good amount, almost 40% would consider of the currently working, and almost 46% of the formally working, you know, which led us to we also had questions about barriers to work satisfaction. And have you ever considered leaving? And for those that did consider leaving? The main reasons we presented like 20 different possible choices and the rack of opportunity for a leadership leadership position were within the top three reasons why respondents considered leaving. Yeah,    Jayson Davies     it's a lot. I totally believe it. I mean, that that's one of my top three reasons for for eventually leaving. I mean, it's hard again. This varies from district to district, obviously, state to state, but, you know, over here, you kind of max out. And it's not just maxing out on the pay scale, but you kind of see the end of a pay scale as also being kind of like the maxing out in your career. Like, where do you go from here? And for me, I think at one district there was five steps to maxing out. At another district there were seven steps to maxing out. I know some districts follow a teacher scale, which tends to be a little bit larger 2025 steps. So in that case, you're constantly moving up in air quotes. But yeah, yeah, and I don't know for me, I've had three jobs, three school based ot jobs that I primarily worked at. One was a contract position. I was there for very short term, but as soon as I got into a district like when you only see that there's five steps and no opportunity to really move outside of being an OT practitioner. And again, for nine I don't know for it sounds like 60% of people that's what they want. They want to go in. They want to be a practitioner. They're not really interested about the academic work, but for the 40% of school based ot practitioners, it sounds like you found like that's a barrier to them, and they might potentially go somewhere else, where they can.    Jamie Spencer     Which impact the children, because we're limiting carryover. We're limiting their relationship and rapport with the staff.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and we, I don't know. I don't have the data on hand. I don't know if any of you do, but turnover in public schools is really high, not just for ot practitioners, but for especially in special education, but also general education.     Jamie Spencer     Yeah, was one of the questions that we asked. Like, you know, how long have you been at your current job? And the answers were scattered. But one of the key points that we found in this research was that 96% of the people we interviewed, or I should say, surveyed, they felt strongly that we should advocate for change in legislative policy. So that was an amazing number that we could then bring to our state association, as well as other key stakeholders in our state, like the New York State Education Department and, you know, legislators and people who we can speak to and say, everyone wants this. It was a strong percentage.     Kim Wiggins     I thought, actually, one of the things that I was actually surprised about, and I think is, is key, is a key factor is just the awareness of what people know about what they can and can't do. So, for example, we asked a question like they were asked their level of awareness that people that are considered under the people personnel services like school counselors and psychologists and social workers, are they eligible to pursue the coursework required for administrative positions, and only 34% of the people were completely aware that they were able to pursue it, where 34% were somewhat aware and 31% were not at all aware. So if you're not even aware of what you know you have to do to get to that spot, you know, it's going to be really difficult to move forward with that. So I think just bringing awareness to all OTs across the nation about what they have to do to advocate, or even knowing what they you know, what their particular state allows them to do or not allows them to do, I think is a key factor, too.    Jamie Spencer     And we also thought then, if the practitioners who are working in the field aren't aware we know that the students aren't being educated about it either.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. I was just looking at your your article, and something that really stood out to me was that people don't even fully understand how hiring practices, pay equity and healthcare benefits can all be impacted by the inability to earn a credential and become an administrator. So, yeah, the power of unknown is very powerful.    Kim Wiggins     What I really liked, I think one of I like a lot of things about our research. But one of the things that I little biased there, but one of the things that I really liked is that just completing or filling out our questionnaire, I think, actually brought awareness to people, because we were asking questions that actually, like, triggered thought, like, oh, I actually don't know about that. Or, of course, I want to advocate for this, or, you know, things, you know, they're just different questions that actually just brought more awareness in general. So I think, you know, doing the research, and I have, you know, in all 25 years, only in the last probably 15 years that I've been a presenter have I really had the time, or not even at the time, but looked into research and appreciated research because it is, it's a lot, but the more of us that are doing things like this really make a difference and bring advocacy to our to our profession.    Jaime Spencer      Absolutely, absolutely go ahead. Serena.     Serena Zeidler     I was just thinking about our statistician, and we were really fortunate that we had some funding for this research through the Torah University's Dean's Research Award, and we use some of that funding to consult with a research expert. But we also had access to a statistician because we we had students, the BSMS students, who are involved in our research, and we were really careful to reduce bias as much as we could by asking questions. You know, we wanted to know that, you know, the level of agreement that we should be able to pursue educational, administrative coursework, but we had to be careful how we sequenced the questions, so that it wasn't presented in a way that, you know, that somebody would want something once they learned they didn't have didn't have it, you know, so, but I think we did a pretty good job with that.     Kim Wiggins     Yeah, yes. We were very, very careful of that, because it's it is hard, you know, like not to infuse your opinions in there, right?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, research is not easy, that is for sure. So kudos to you, to the three of you, for taking this on and getting published within a pretty prominent journal within the school based ot realm, for sure, the Journal of Occupational therapy schools and early intervention. I want to talk about what has happened in the year since you published, and maybe in the two years or so since you probably completed this study and before it was published. But the last question I want to ask before we do that is you made sure to include a, OT, a and Essa within this published article, you mentioned, I believe it was the vision 2025 from a OTA. And you talk a little bit about making sure that you kind of connect ot with ESSA. And I just want to give you the the opportunity to share the importance of that and why you did that.    Jamie Spencer     Well, one of the questions was regarding, did they feel that ot has in New York has met the centennial vision, and the centennial vision spoke about leadership. I don't know it off the top of my head, but we asked, you know, do you think that ot in New York has met this and there was mixed responses, but I feel that we have not met it. And so I wanted to put it out there that, you know, Vision 25 vision 2025 says that we are going to be leaders and that we are going to eliminate barriers in the community and like all these wonderful things. But how can we do that if we're not technically allowed to be real leaders. And I listen, I know maybe I could get promoted to like lead OT or something like that, but that doesn't require a certificate. That's not a formal leadership position within the education department. So it's different, and we need the same opportunities as everyone else. We also wanted to highlight the the disconnect between the federal law ESSA, which says that we are important members of the school community and that we are equal with other s, i, s, p, s, which are social workers, psychologists, speech language pathologists, librarians, and then the state law, which has us classified as non instructional, and when we look at who is classified non instructional, it's people who do not work directly with students on their education. It's people in the transportation department and the clerical department and the sanitation department. It's completely different, and we are instructional. The state just hasn't recognized it yet. So we really wanted to point that out, in addition to going to the key stakeholders and aligning the disconnect with their mission statements. So nice and mission statement is about equity, and, you know, advancing people to leadership opportunities and equal opportunities for women, you. At our profession, which is, you know, the majority women were all limited from these opportunities, so we wanted to highlight that as well.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and I can't remember who it was, but one of you mentioned earlier that, in order to really have schools understand our ability to participate in school wide, district wide initiatives under MTSS, we really have to have OTs in place that understand our potential there and be in the administrative role to, you know, point out to an assistant supervisor that, hey, the OT might be the perfect person to help with this social curriculum or or whatnot like that. So, yeah, definitely. Well, let's go ahead, I want to talk a little bit about what's happened since you got this research out into the world published, and also the future implications from here on out. So what has happened in the last year plus, since this was published, and kind of you collected all this data?    Jamie Spencer     a lot. I'm so excited to say that, because if you would ask me a couple of months ago, I would be like, not much has happened, but just recently, a lot of things have actually come to fruition, which is so amazing and wonderful. We presented the information to our state association, and we also presented it to the New York State United Teachers, and they're huge stakeholders in New York State. They have a lot of power. We sent the information over social media. We've really spread the word as to what we found and why this is important. And just recently, nysoda put forth their priorities for the year for school based occupational therapy and getting us categorized under pupil personnel was on there, and they've always been supportive, but they just recently actually put forth legislation to categorize occupational therapy as pupil personnel, also to ask the commissioner of the education department To put forth a guidance document recognizing what occupational therapists in the schools can do, including early intervening, MTSS mental health, all those things, they kind of all tackle the problem. So we're very, very excited about that. And there was another bill that was introduced by Assemblyman Ari Brown, which actually asked for equal pay and career ladder opportunities for occupational physical therapists. So there's been some chatter on social media like, Is this because we're worried about Trump, you know, blowing up the Federal Department of Education, and then the states are going to be scrambling, and who knows why it's happening. We're just so grateful that it is happening. And then some things on the local level as well. There are districts around here in Long Island that have been hiring occupational therapists directly rather than contracting, and they're putting forth ra like putting forth proposals to their representative assemblies, asking for us to be included in the tenure laws and not even realizing, well, we can't be in the tenure law because we're not considered educators. So, you know, there's all this kind of the ripple effect of knowledge.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that's why do you think that you're seeing districts start to hire directly, as opposed to contract positions?     Jamie Spencer     I think they're recognizing the value of occupational therapy more, and also recognizing the cons of contract therapists, how they don't have the time to collaborate as much with the staff, and, you know, really be a part of the school community, and there is high turnover, because a lot of contract therapists aren't they don't love that, or they are just put in a different building the following year, and they're just not included in everything, including professional development opportunities and districts who understand what we do are making changes.     Kim Wiggins     I actually think one of the biggest issues is MTSS, I think that when we have contracted therapists in the schools, they really can participate in MTSS as well, because it's not a billable service, and that's often how they're getting paid. And also, you know, you can't just, you know, a therapist like as a district, I was gonna say, district owned. That's not the right word. A district employee, you can just walk into a first grade classroom and provide tier one interventions or suggestions or ideas, and the same with tier two interventions, but as a contract therapist, you just can't. And so I think that, you know, administrators and school districts are noticing that, wow, maybe we could nip more things in the bud as far as, like, helping as many kids as possible. If these OTs or PTS are participating in MTSS tier one and tier two. But when they're a contract, they just can't do that. They're just not able to do it as much there. I'm sure there's cases where they They do, yeah, you know, whatever? Contract they've come up with, but it's, it's rare it's not, and I don't think that's just New York. I think that's across, I think that's across the United States. Yeah,    Jayson Davies     I mean, I think it's, I've seen in some districts where the contract at OT is almost, basically an in house OT, and that's just the way that the contract with the agency works. But I think in more cases than not, than not, it's more like what you talked about Kim, where you know they're they're getting paid by the half hour session, and that's got to be a billable session, otherwise no one's getting paid. And in that case, right? You want to, you're going to optimize your time toward billable sessions, right?    Kim Wiggins     And more, and there's more instances of pull out and less inclusion and and, you know, you don't have the chance to, like, talk to the teacher and figure out when is the best time for me to push into the classroom. I can come to, like, contract therapist. I can come to this school on Mondays and Wednesdays from 10 to 12, you know. And so you can't always push into the most, the best, particular spot in the school you can't push into art, you know, because art is, it might be changing every single day, or what's the time. So, yeah, I think, I think that's a huge piece of it, too. And I, I am and happy with the states and the districts that are starting to hire therapists, because it really does help with our professionals. Definitely.    Jayson Davies     So now that you did this research, what else would you like to know? Like, I don't know. Maybe you're already working on some further research. I don't know that yet, but what would you like to know? What did you not learn in this research that you're like, Darn, we should have asked this question. Or, I guess, what's that next step for you in terms of information that you wish you had, or maybe you're looking for already.     Jamie Spencer     So we actually did another we did this identical study. We had to change some of the questions a little bit regarding physical therapy. We didn't have as many respondents, but we had, I think, I think it was over 100 maybe 109 is sticking out my head. And we had similar results. We didn't write it up, and I did present the information at the A ot children and youth conference last year. But we're not finding that. We're not finding physical therapists like us who are passionately fighting about it. So I would love for PT to get on board with this fight. We also had thought about possibly surveying school administrators about their knowledge about occupational therapists and what we can do, but we actually did put that survey out there, and we had hardly any respondents. So it wasn't, it just wasn't Yeah, can I just anything you could grab on to?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I that's one that I've been very interested in and in on. And I did find one article a while ago, but it was a little dated, and they also had trouble, you know, getting a hold of School Administrators. I think one that I saw, they actually did a focus group with school administrators, which was very eye opening, yes,    Jamie Spencer     and they interviewed them, right? Yeah, yes, I read that article,    Jayson Davies     but yeah, no, I think it's going to be key if we want to convince administrators and education, you know, experts, that we belong in the similar world as them in the educational world, we're going to need to have their input on it, because, you know, I could see you, all three of you, driving down to Albany and them saying, great, cool, you have ot data now. Where's the data that says teachers want you to be part of the team? Where's the data the school administrators want you to be part of the team. And I think that's going to be important for for us to have. And I know there's some are, there are some articles out there about it, and everyone that I've read it's been very positive in relationship to teachers wanting support from OTs and admin wanting support from OTs. It's just a matter of making it happen. Yes, agreed. So any other next steps that you're hoping for? Are you? Are you heading to helping you to share these results with them? Or have you shared it with the New York Education Board, or anything like that yet? Or is that the plan? Or, well,    Jamie Spencer     I'm on the New York State Education Department occupational therapy board, and I did share the information with them and bring it up as a as an issue in the profession. It's a difficult situation, because when you're on the board, you're not necessarily supposed to be promoting changes to legislation and all the things like that. You're supposed to be there to advise the board. But my my take on that was, well, I want to advise the board that there's a major issue in the profession, and it's, you know, we keep trying to talk to the Education Department, and nysoda has reached out and even had a meeting with ot a to meet with the education department about the state of the profession, and this was years ago, and they wouldn't even really entertain it. They wouldn't even take meetings with us or anything like that. So I. I do feel right now, New York State has a new executive director of the occupational therapy board of the Education Department of New York, and it's such a long term but yeah, it's not, it's not the professional association, it's the OT board of the State Education Department. We have a new executive director, and she's very knowledgeable about occupational therapy, she's been very open to listening, and I feel that we're being heard, and it's the whole board. We're all in agreement that this is a topic that's coming up again and again, and that it's impacting the children, and it's impacting the profession and our ability to influence our unique skill set to help the children.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And I think my, my final wrap up question here is really going to be like related to everyone listening here, and they've got this research potentially in front of them. I know, I know not everyone has access to the Journal of Occupational therapy schools and early intervention, but if you have access to a school that does have access to it, be sure to get this, download it, save it to your computer, keep it or at least go get the abstract. But yeah, what? What is your hope that someone an occupational therapy practitioner you know, or maybe even an administrator or a teacher that's reading this article? What is your hope that they'll do with this information?    Serena Zeidler     Well, I think reading the article is going to open their eyes. They not may not even be aware that this is an issue, that this is a problem. And I think that's helpful in and of itself, you know, to understand that we're not eligible to pursue educational administrative coursework. We're not educationally credentialed. Of course, our research focused on New York, but to me, the first step is to become part of the Office of Teaching initiatives and the category pupil personnel, similar to school social workers and school psychologists. And you know, if somebody's reading this article, maybe would kind of open up their eyes to this issue. And in the article, we talk about how it impacts the students, it impacts the whole school community. And maybe if somebody's reading it, they'll realize, you know, what this is impacting my school as well. And, you know, talk to your state association. I think that's always a good start. I mean, we had, we had done this years ago, back in 2009 we had written Jamie and I and two other OTs wrote to the State Education Department, the Commissioner, we wanted to find out about, how do we become pupil personnel. And, you know, we basically were told we're not instructional, we're not pedagogical. And then we went to nysoda. Nysoda folks at that point in time were totally, you know, different professional, different OTs than they are now. And you know it, it's just been a really long process, but I think, you know, going to your state association, talking to OT other OTs, maybe getting involved with a university, and, you know, doing this, getting involved in doing a study, like we did. I mean, this, our study focused on New York State, but it could be generalized to any of the other states as as well.     Jamie Spencer     And I know I think people who are who are completely unaware, or who are not involved in the advocacy, like I've had a lot of OTs say to me like, oh, good for you, that you advocate. I'm not. I'm so out of the loop. And they're not. Those are not going to be the people that are then going to go contact their state association because they don't feel like they know it well enough to speak to it. But even just telling your ot bestie, did you read this article? Did you see what it says and the things that we're talking about, we've we've cited the research behind that. We've cited that OT is historically misunderstood. We've cited that the mission statement of the education department is A, B and C. So at least to give them talking points, you can't advocate without being knowledgeable. So at least this can provide a foundation of the problem and possible solutions.     Jayson Davies     Yeah. And you also never know when you'll be at a holiday party with the principal or superintendent or, yeah, or,    Jamie Spencer     you know, somebody even more important.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. I would love, by the way, you all shared a few stories about administrators that you know. I would love for those administrators to put out their stories OTs practitioners that have become an administrator. I would love for them to share their stories in the OT practice or in the Asia, somehow or anywhere that they can publish anything. I think that would be really powerful for others to see what that has looked like, what they've been able to do as a result of becoming an administrator. Sure,    Jamie Spencer     good point.     Kim Wiggins     That's a great that's a great idea.    Jamie Spencer     There. Actually, there is an article in OT practice a few years back, Jan Hollenback wrote it with a couple of other occupational therapy practitioners, and it did describe their pathway to become leaders. But each one was unique, and it was just a few people, but still, yeah,    Jayson Davies     yeah. I would love to see like one published every year. I don't know that's that may not be realistic, but it would be awesome. All right, Kim, we'll end off with you. What's one thing that you're hoping you know that an OT practitioner reads this article and takes away and maybe they take an action, maybe they don't, but what do you hope that they get from this?    Kim Wiggins     I think my biggest thing, and I've mentioned it a couple times today already, is just awareness. Like Serena said, like, I really believe that the more aware we are as therapists and in the school setting, the better it's going to be, the easier it's going to be for us to advocate. So if, like, I think that number that I shared earlier that people just weren't even aware that it wasn't that it was an issue. Is is a lot, because I think that if we are aware, we'll be able to advocate to our administrators, to our teacher friends, and, you know, OTs are typically very well loved people in the school like we, we really try to help as many people as possible in so many areas. And I really think that all of our colleagues would appreciate that, you know, for us, you know, and cheer us on and and want us to succeed and be able to move forward. I know that in all the schools that I've worked with, it's, you know, the OTs are often the glue, you know, to a lot of the other professions. And so I think that other people see it too. And so just having that awareness, I think, is a really important piece. And so I'm hoping, I'm hoping that that increases after they read it,    Jayson Davies     Kim, you just brought back some great memories of my profession, like just being at the IEP and kind of being that person that kind of hurt. The parent, heard the teacher, heard the administrator, and was kind of able to synthesize it a little bit and get everyone on that same page. Like I don't know that that is something that OTs practitioners, we do pretty well. I think we're good at listening. We're good at observing behavior and kind of keying into important things in each person's life and what they want for the child, and kind of bringing that together. I think that's a great point, and it's also why we might make, yeah, exactly, and it's why we might make great IEP team leaders as an assistant principal, special education provider, something like that. So, yep, superintendent, I have not sat in on an IEP with the superintendent at JP, Jamie and I hope I never will, but that said there's a lot of meetings that they do sit in on that are obviously very important, that an OT practitioner would be a welcome site. So absolutely, thank you all so much for being here. Serena, really appreciate you being here. Kim, appreciate you being here. And Jamie, as always, you're always welcome on the podcast, all three of you, but Jamie, been here before. Thank you all so much. We appreciate it, and we'll definitely keep in touch on your research. Thanks again.    Serena Zeidler     Thank you. Thank you for having us.     Kim Wiggins     Thank you.     Jaime Spencer     Thank you for helping us share the information.    Jayson Davies     All right, that is going to wrap up episode number 173 of the OT school house podcast, I want to extend a very heartfelt thank you to our incredible guest, Jamie Spencer, Kim Wiggins and Serena Zeiler. If you have any questions, well, first and foremost, go check out the research. I will link to it in the show notes. But if you do have questions beyond that, reach out to Jamie Kim and Serena on LinkedIn. Or if you know how to get in touch with them, they're pretty easy people to get in touch with, so give them an email if you have a question, or maybe you want to help out with research, I'm sure they would love to collaborate to make maybe a similar survey happen in your state, or maybe to use their research within your state to get things going. They would love to help you advocate for administrators or for OTs to become administrators in your state. All right. So with that, thank you so much for tuning in. Really appreciate it, and we'll see you next time on the OT squad podcast, take care.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com . Until next time class is dismissed Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

As school-based OT practitioners, we know how fast our days fill up. Between therapy sessions, IEP meetings, documentation, teacher consultations, and the unexpected challenges that pop up, finding enough time to do everything well can feel impossible. But, small shifts in how we plan, document, and communicate can make a big difference in how efficiently we work without sacrificing the quality of the services we provide. Let’s explore some time-saving hacks for school-based OT practitioners to reclaim our time and focus on what truly matters: supporting our students. Time-Saving Hacks for School-Based OT Planning Smarter with Multi-Session Programs Planning therapy sessions every week from scratch can be exhausting, and eventually, you will likely give up. Instead of reinventing the wheel every week, we can save time by developing programs or even simple treatment plans that last multiple sessions . Whether it’s a four-week fine motor program, a self-regulation series, or an executive functioning intervention plan, using multi-session programs allows us to plan weeks in advance while ensuring consistency for our students. For example, I once helped a student to write a short book over 6 weeks . Of course, she had no idea this was really a six-week executive functioning program. Here’s what it looked like: Week 1: Brainstorming and planning out the structure of the book. Week 2: Outlining the content, breaking it down into manageable sections. Week 3: Writing an initial draft, focusing on organizing thoughts. Week 4: Editing and refining ideas with executive functioning strategies. Week 5: Adding images, finalizing content, and ensuring completion. Week 6: Reviewing the entire process, self-assessing progress, and celebrating the finished project. Sure, this took some planning on the front end, but then I didn't have to worry about planning for this session for over a month. Maximizing Our Therapy Time Scheduling Back-to-Back Students in the Same Class When possible, scheduling students from the same classroom back-to-back allows us to maximize our time in one location. Fewer transitions mean less time spent walking across campus and more time spent working with students. This also gives us flexibility. If one student is absent, we can see another from the same class instead of losing that time altogether. And when an entire class is unavailable due to a field trip or special event, we suddenly have a larger block of time to use for make-up sessions, documentation, or starting an evaluation. Using Warm-Up and Wind-Down Routines Predictable routines at the start and end of sessions can help us make the most of our therapy time. They may also give you a much-needed three minutes to plan your first session of the day.  A structured warm-up, like a quick fine motor, sensory-motor, or executive functioning task, helps students transition into therapy mode, reducing wasted time. Similarly, a consistent wind-down routine, such as deep breathing or a quick reflection, helps students prepare to return to class. So long as you are using these warm-ups and cool-downs in a way that supports goal achievement, then it is perfectly fine. A warning, though: don’t use a fine motor warm-up for a student who has an executive functioning goal (unless you can justify it, of course). As a bonus, wind-down time gives us a moment to jot down notes while students complete a quiet activity. When this isn’t possible, batching documentation (more on that next) can help us stay on top of paperwork. Looking for school-based OT mentorship? Join the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative & attend our live Q+A sessions! Inside the Collaborative, we host live Q&A Zoom sessions to support one another every month. These calls allow you to receive immediate feedback from me (Jayson) and other school-based OT practitioners who want to help you. Join the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative today to attend our next Collaboration Hour!
Get your questions answered inside the Collaborative! Streamlining Documentation Using AI to Turn Voice Memos into Notes Instead of trying to recall every detail from our sessions at the end of the day, we can use AI tools to transcribe quick voice memos into structured notes. A short recording after a session (covering what we worked on, how the student responded, and any key observations) can be turned into a formatted SOAP note, progress update, or IEP present level with just a little refinement. Quick reminder:  When in doubt, avoid any personally identifiable information. Use initials or some other identifier that will help you remember who the note is about later.  Batching Documentation When Needed If you don’t have time to take notes during sessions, setting aside dedicated time to batch your documentation can be an effective alternative. Blocking off 30 minutes at the end of the day (or another consistent time) allows us to focus on paperwork without constant interruptions. By grouping similar tasks together, we reduce the mental load of switching between therapy, meetings, and documentation, making the process more efficient. Here are a few other time blocks to add to your calendar each week: MTSS intervention time Time for Evals Tx planning time Time for consults Lunch Speeding Up Goal Writing with a Goal Bank Writing individualized goals from scratch for every student is time-consuming, but we don’t have to start from zero each time. A well-organized goal bank allows us to pull from pre-written, customizable goals that align with our students' needs. If the idea of creating a goal bank is overwhelming, the  OT Schoolhouse Goal Bank is a great resource for fine motor, sensory, social-emotional, executive functioning, and other functional goals. Having access to structured goals helps us ensure we are writing high-quality, meaningful objectives while also saving time during IEP season. Using SMART goal templates can also help us maintain consistency across our documentation while ensuring that goals are functional and measurable. To help get you started, here is one of the templates I often use when writing a new goal: By [date], [student name] will [specific skill] with [measurable criteria] in [number] out of [number] consecutive trials, using [accommodations/supports] as needed.
Simplifying Teacher & Parent Communication Using Email Templates & Google Forms We often find ourselves sending similar emails, whether it’s requesting teacher feedback, updating parents, or scheduling meetings. Instead of typing out new messages each time, using pre-written email templates allows us to quickly adjust and send what we need. This can be done in both G-Mail and Outlook.  Google/Microsoft Forms can also be a game-changer when it comes to collecting teacher and parent input. Instead of sending multiple emails back and forth, we can create a simple form where teachers can provide quick updates on student progress. Not only does this save time, but it also keeps all responses organized in one place. Bonus tip:  At the start of the school year, pre-schedule a data form to go out to a teacher once every 2-3 months. That way, you don't forget to send it later in the year.  Providing Quick-Reference Guides for Teachers How many times have you answered the same pencil grasp question from the same three teachers?  Instead of explaining the same strategies over and over, consider creating a few quick-reference guides that offer practical, easy-to-implement strategies. A great place to start is with these  free OT Month handouts  I created a few years ago. These resources help you share with your school colleagues about OT and how you can directly support them and the students.  Final Thoughts Time is one of our most valuable resources as school-based OT practitioners, and small changes in how we plan, document, and communicate can make a huge difference in how we manage our workload.  Whether it’s developing multi-session programs, batching documentation, using AI for notes, or scheduling smarter, these strategies help us focus more on student support and less on administrative tasks. What time-saving strategies have worked for you? Share this article on Facebook, LinkedIn, or your IG story, along with your top time-saving tip for school-based OT practitioners.  Thanks for having a read and I hope this can help to save you at least 1-2 hours every week! 👋 Jayson Ps. Thank you to everyone who responded to my weekly newsletter asking about this topic. There were many of you, so I hope this helps.

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 171 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In this episode Jayson teams up with guests Karen and Heather to get into the transformative world of Psymark—a digital tool designed to revolutionize school-based occupational therapy assessments. Karen’s journey from school psychologist to a tech innovator, alongside Heather’s experience as an occupational therapist, offers listeners a deep dive into how technology is reshaping the way we monitor and support students' visual motor integration.  Discover the magic behind self-scoring iPad assessments that promise to simplify processes, provide teachers and therapists with precise insights, and potentially reduce referrals, all while laying the groundwork for essential interventions. Join us for an exploration of cutting-edge strategies making waves in the field of occupational therapy. Listen now to learn the following objectives: Learners will recall the components and purpose of the Psymark tool Learners will identify the specific visual motor assessment areas that the Psymark tool evaluates  Learners will be able to indicate some of the initial research and data analysis of the psymark tool Guests Bio Dr. Karen Silberman leads the team at Psymark after an extensive career in education serving as a teacher, school psychologist and special education director. Karen has presented at numerous conferences including AOTA, NASP, and CASP. As the mother of a child who struggled with visual-motor issues, she has an enhanced understanding of how visual-motor problems can impact families of children with learning differences. Heather Donovan earned her Master’s in Occupational Therapy from USC in 2012 and spent the first seven years of her career at a private pediatric clinic, gaining valuable experience in early intervention, insurance-based, and school-based practice. In late 2019, she transitioned to her current role as a school district occupational therapist at Mountain View School District in El Monte, CA. Through this position, she collaborated closely with Dr. Karen Silberman, and after Dr. Silberman’s retirement, Heather began beta testing and consulting with Dr. Silberman and the Psymark team. Quotes “Our first study was looking at differences between paper, pencil, finger, and stylus. And so, with that, we were kind of surprised at the results, but the results showed that there was no significant difference between paper, pencil, finger, and stylus.” - Karen Silberman, Ed.D., LEP “There is an overall accuracy score, and that is made up of scale, rotation, line consistency, and noise. So scale and rotation, everyone understands. Line consistency is how close the line that the person drew is aligned with the given line. Noise are those extraneous lines that are outside. “ - Karen Silberman, Ed.D., LEP “If they're newer, then maybe  I'll do all three. But if it's a student that I know that I'm really focusing more on the letter formation, then I'm gonna use the letters. In motor cases, I tend to use the letters more than the shapes and numbers, mostly because I see the shapes tools are great just looking at underlying visual motor skills.” -Heather Donovan, MA, OTR/L “We saw a 48% increase in kids in the proficient range for their visual motor skills.” - Karen Silberman, Ed.D., LEP /L Resources 👉 Karen Email 👉 Heather email 👉 Youtube training 👉 Psymark Website 👉 Instagram 👉 Linkedin 👉 Facebook 👉 Threads Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript.   Jayson Davies     Hey, OTP, Have you ever wished that your assessment tool, like the BOD or the VMI or any other tool that you use would just score itself? Well, that's exactly what we are discussing in this episode today. I'm excited to introduce you to a new tool that just might redefine how we assess visual motor skills. Seriously, this is one that I hope you actually look back on and get to say I am so glad that Jayson shared this with me, because honestly, I really do think that this is going to change the way that you do things. I also think that this is a tool that's going to change the way that all assessments do things. I was first introduced to the simmark app way back in 2019 at the OT Association of California conference, but now it is officially ready to help save ot practitioners and school psychologists and probably a few others, including teachers, time, energy and headaches. Even better, it can help us work with teachers to assist students before an IEP is even needed. Think. MTSS, right. Well, to help share all of this, I am joined by Karen Silverman, a former elementary teacher turned school psychologist, and Heather Donovan, an occupational therapist who's been in the trenches of school based practice and also who actually went to school with me back at USC together, Karen and Heather will help to share exactly how and why this iPad based tool is changing the VMI game. Specifically, we will discuss what the simmark tool evaluates, how you can use it as part of your evaluation, and how you can use it in an MTSS program to screen entire classrooms and provide supports to the teachers. So stay tuned as Karen and Heather share their research backing the SCI Mark innovation and how you can implement these tools to support your students and teachers. Let's dive in.    Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now, to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Karen and Heather, welcome to the OT school house podcast. I hope you're both doing fantastic, Karen. Let's start with you. How are you today?    Karen Silberman     Hey, I'm great. Thank you, Jayson, so much for inviting us to the OT school house. It's really an honor for us to be here with you today, and we really appreciate it    Jayson Davies     absolutely. It's great to have you as well. Always great to have someone who's not an occupational therapist on this show. It's always fun. I'm sure we will learn so much from you today, but we also have an occupational therapist joining us today. Heather, Heather, how you doing today?    Heather Donovan     I'm doing great, and I'm so excited to be here as well.    Jayson Davies     Awesome.Well, thank you so much for joining us. I'm excited this is going to be about 45 minutes or so that we're just going to have a good time talking about visual motor integration, talking about copying and drawing and all the fun stuff that we know goes hand in hand with school based occupational therapy. So to get us started, I want to give you both a moment to introduce yourselves just a bit. And going back to Karen for a second, I already kind of gave away the spoiler that you're a psychologist, but why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself,    Karen Silberman     right? So thanks, Jayson, I started my professional journey as an elementary school teacher. So I taught all grades from first through sixth, and then I transitioned to become a school psychologist. And over that period of time, I also had kids of my own, and I had one of my sons who had visual motor problems, and that I saw a lot of impacts with his learning. And it was a, really a shock to me as a teacher, that I had trouble teaching my own son how to how to write, and that's really when I first became familiar with OTs and I can honestly say that an OT was one of the first people who really understood how to work with him and how to to help him with his needs, because he didn't fit into traditional categories. So anyway, after becoming a school psychologist, I kept going to school and moving forward in my career. So I got a doctorate and then moved ahead and became a program specialist and a director. Then I got to retire, because at the same time, we've been working on creating the tests, and I got to retire and devote myself full time to sim. So we're our goal is really in bringing accurate, self scoring, visual motor tests to practitioners in the field.    Jayson Davies     I love that. And yeah, I know I was introduced to Cy Marc several years ago when I first ran into and it was just kind of getting started before it was commercially available. And I just knew that the idea was fan. Fantastic, and that was before AI was even like kind of a thing. And now that that aspect of self scoring that you say that's huge right now. So we'll get more into that in a moment. But, yeah, I'm excited to talk about that. So Heather, welcome. It's great to have you and share a little bit about a your experience as an OT and also kind of how you fit into the Cy Marx story. Well,    Heather Donovan     I was actually in, you know, Jayson class at USC, and we graduated together back in, I think what 2012 seems like forever.     Jayson Davies     Think so too long ago now.    Heather Donovan     And, you know, I immediately started working at a private pediatric clinic, and I stayed there, I think, for about eight years, and it really was a great place to start my career. Lots of training and mentorship. I gained valuable experience in multiple settings that really shaped the therapist I am today. And then a position opened a school district job that I started at the end of 2019 and that's where I met and started to work closely with Dr Silverman. And then after she retired from the district job, she approached me about being a beta tester for simmark. And since then, I've basically been involved, like on a volunteer basis for the past two years, and my role has largely just been in formal consultation when I have time, of course. But similar to you, I recognize that the cymarg tools had so much potential, and I was really happy to be a part of it, even in a small way. And then more recently, I was also to I was fortunate enough to be involved in the pilot screener program for TK students in my school district.    Jayson Davies     Fantastic, awesome. Well, thank you both for introducing yourself for a minute. I want to jump back to Karen and we're going to dive deep into cymarg, but I do want to give you just like, what is that elevator pitch? Right? Like, the first time you meet an OT the first time you meet a school psychologist. You kind of gave us a one liner a moment ago. But if you had a whole, you know, 45 seconds, how do you pitch sidemark? What is it? What's the purpose? And, yeah, just go for it.     Karen Silberman     Okay, so what we have created the first ever Digital Visual motor tests on iPads that are self scoring convenient and give results in nine different areas within minutes, and the larger sort of pitch to this is right? We have three tools right now. They are shapes, letters and numbers, and these tools are for the purpose of them is to to do progress monitoring. So these are really progress monitoring tests. The exciting piece is that this year, we are coming out with two new tools. One is a screener, which occupational therapists are that we've talked to are very interested in because what the tool does is help to give scores within broad groups. So finding out where the child is, are they proficient? What range are they falling in, or are they in the intervention range? And with that, then they will also get interventions that that are can be used, and it's really a tool thinking of kind of MTSS or RTI to help prevent those referrals to OTs who are already overwhelmed, right? So, so that's our goal with the screener. Then later in the year, we will be coming out with standardized, standardized shapes test that can be used. So again, it's self scoring, and we're looking at standardization for ages four through seven. So we're super excited about this. And 2025, is we're looking forward. It's going to be a great year for Cy Marc, awesome.    Jayson Davies     I am definitely going to like tune my inner Mark Cuban right now and feel like I'm on Shark Tank and ask you some follow ups here, because you mentioned self scoring. How is it self scoring? Right? Like, we're very used to using the VMI, the berry, VMI, the bot, but those obviously are not self scoring. So how is this tool self scoring, right?    Karen Silberman     Well, so this kind of gets into how we developed in the first place. Because just to kind of back it up a little bit, this actually started when I finished my doctorate, and one of my professors approached me and one of my fellow students and said, we want to do research. But then so we said, Great, yeah, let's do research together. And when we started looking into it, we said, you know, why are we still using rulers and protractors to score when there's this incredible. Technology that does everything else. This was years ago. Jayson, this was years ago, and so so with that. Then we both have kids that are techies who are now adults and working in technology. And we went to them and said, Is this even possible? Is this a possibility? And they were like, Yeah, easy peasy. Nothing has been easy peasy, right? Nothing has been. But so your question of, oh, how is it self scoring? It's highly complex, actually. And we got a patent in 2021, for this. So I wish I could tell you, in a quick, easy sense, oh, this is all it is. No, it's actually super complex to talk through the scoring. What I can tell you, though is that it's taken a lot of iterations and years of work to put this together, to make sure that the scoring is accurate, and the scoring in all of these nine different areas. So it's complex and it's but what we want for you to see on your end is to make it look like it's easy. Because when you see it, it looks like, Oh, that's easy, right? Oh, I'll just copy these shapes, and then, oh, there are the scores. There's a lot happening on the back end that are is measuring each, each piece of what, what the examinee is doing, so that it's measuring the speed, it's measuring how far away your line is from the line that's given it's measuring the rotation and the scale, like all of these pieces are being done simultaneously.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, it is quite a feat. I've played around with it a little bit, and I think we'll go to Heather with this next question to kind of give us an idea of what it actually looks like to use. I don't even know if we've mentioned yet that this is an iPad app, or a series of iPad apps. So everything is done 100% on the iPad. And so Heather, if you want to kind of, really briefly, kind of, I guess, almost in a way, share the experience of an occupational therapy practitioner using this tool. Like, what does it actually look like for the OT to use it?    Heather Donovan     Well, basically it's like an app, you click on, you open, you enter in the student's demographic information, and then, and the first page has a lot of other information, like on how to use it, and updates and all that kind of stuff. But basically, when you start the assessment, it's very plain and very easy. It's like the top part of the iPad has a shape, and then you just prompt the student to copy it below, and then you hit Next, and you do that until the assessment you get through all of the test items. And it's incredibly short and brief and easy to use. That's basically how I would summarize it? Yeah,    Jayson Davies     I mean, the copying a shape that is on the top of the page to the bottom of the page sounds very familiar to us who have used many tools, but obviously it's very different in the sense that we're not using pencil and paper. One thing that you said you copy it right, but I didn't hear you say was, is this using a stylus? Is this using a finger? Does it matter? Does it have to be an Apple pencil because it's on an iPad? What about that?     Heather Donovan     Well, it's funny, you should ask, because that's been a big discussion point in some of our meetings and talks, because, interestingly enough, they did kind of a study looking at using a stylus and using their finger, and what they showed the results were the same. So which I thought, well, then you're really you're eliminating the tool use part of measuring the visual motor skill. So in a sense, like when you're using your finger, you're really looking at the ability to copy the shapes, versus managing the tool and the grasp and all those other things that also goes into writing. So then it's kind of like, I just thought that in itself, I told I told Karen. I was like, That is actually a really interesting finding in itself, that the there was no difference of using the stylus versus the finger. So when it comes to use for me, I'll be honest, like, I really it's a case by case basis. Like, sometimes I'll have them use their finger, and sometimes I'll have them use the stylus, depending on what I'm trying to look at when I'm using it as a progress monitoring tool.    Jayson Davies     Interesting, interesting. Like, I'm currently, I know if you're listening on the podcast, you can't see this, but I currently have a right, right stylist in my hands, which hands, which I don't know, it's just sitting on my desk. And I was like, Oh, hey, I'm gonna play fidget with this. But anyways, Karen, do you want to add anything to that, whether it be your original intentions or kind of what you're seeing now, actually.    Karen Silberman     You know that was our first study, because we thought we Why move forward? With this, if we're seeing these drastic differences. So our first study was looking at differences between paper pencil, finger and stylus and so so with that, we were kind of surprised at the results, but the results showed that there was no significant difference between paper pencil, finger and stylus, and so that's why we're saying, Yeah, you can use either your finger or or the stylus. What? When I get into this a little more later, but Heather and I were, we actually worked with some TK teachers in the Mountain View School District. Mountain View wanted to use our tests as a screener. And said, you know, we love these tests. Can we just give them to all of our TK students? And we said, Yeah, great, absolutely. And so, so Heather and I collaborated on that, and so we had the teachers do the testing and then talk to them about, you know, what, what did you find with this? And the teachers decided, together as a group, we want all the kids to use just their finger. Wow. Okay. And so we said, okay, that's fine. And so then with the results, when we asked them how, how did the results match what you're seeing in the classroom? They said, Oh yeah, this is, this is exactly what we're seeing in the class, where those kids who felt in the intervention range, yeah, those kids definitely need support. Those kids who are proficient are good. We have some kids though that their handwriting is not very good, but we're How come they did well on these tests, right? And so then we could talk to them about grip like, this isn't really a visual motor problem so much as how are they holding, right? So it really prompted this whole other conversation, yeah, with them. So that's kind of a longer answer, but that's what we're finding, is that it's really because our tools are looking at that visual motor piece, and so is it really a visual motor problem, or are there problems with grip?    Jayson Davies     Right? That's exactly where my head was going as you were talking right. Like you think about the other tools. You have to use a pencil, unless you're going to put, like, finger paint on someone's finger or something. I'm like, let them paint right like, you have to use a pencil, and therefore you are no longer segmenting or focusing in on the visual motor aspect. There's so many other aspects going on, and so that could be a limitation. We all you know, think about tests for other purposes, but you think about the motor free visual perception test, but here it's still motor right? You've got to use your finger and you've got to do that, but you're reducing one factor in getting a true visual motor score, as opposed to a fine motor, visual motor score, or whatever you want to call it. So interesting. Very, very interesting. Heather, have you ever tried this like, Have you ever used had a student use it with their finger and then a few minutes later try it with the stylist to determine if there's a difference?    Heather Donovan     Not like, a few minutes later, usually my sessions are I'm limited on time, so it's kind of like, you know, let's move on to something else. The other thing that I've talked to Karen about, too, is the importance of generalizing the skill. So it's kind of like, I want to see like they're showing me this on the iPad, but then can they generalize that to the paper? So I'm always making sure I'm using kind of a combination of both to look at that. But to the point of your question, it would be fascinating to kind of play around and see that more, but I haven't done it myself.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, obviously the research that you both shared a little bit about earlier shares that in general, the vision visual motor skills are are similar, but for an individual child, right? If we do that visual motor test, and they do come out average, and then we kind of have that inkling, hey, maybe it is the pencil grip, or maybe it is their fine motor skills that are impacting them. We could almost do the same test now with a stylist, and that would be very interesting results to take to an IEP meeting and say, hey, look, we did this with just their finger. They did great. As soon as we involved a pencil. Not so much. And so now we kind of know which way to lean when it comes to IEP goals and interventions and all that fun stuff. So fantastic. Karen, is there anything else you want to share before we kind of move on about the development and kind of where, where it started? I'm sorry, the started from the bottom. Now we hear kind of lyrics came into my head just now. But anything else you just kind of want to share about the development or kind of the background behind this?    Karen Silberman     Yes. Well, what I can say, let me, let me think about it, but, but with this, what I can say is that research has really always been at our core, that that's how we started, and so that's that's always been where we are with the development of it too. We started. We started as school psychs thinking, Okay, we're gonna create a test that's, you know, on the iPads, self scoring, thinking about school psychologists honestly, like, okay, great. And then we took it to conferences as research and school psychs and other parts of the country said, we don't do this kind of testing. You know, our OT does the all the visual motor testing. So that's when we started talking to OTs and going to OT conferences. And the OT said, Yeah, we love this. This is great. And what we really do is work with kids, with letters and numbers like, that's what we do, generally. So can you create tests for letters and numbers? And so we said, Yes, we can, right? So then, so we created those tests, and with those, then we also involved another occupational therapist, Heather has been really fabulous to work with, and has done a lot of consultation with us. Kimberly Coates is another one who has worked closely with us, and she actually designed the font for our letters and numbers so and we got recommendations from them on what letters we should use. So it's a it's a mix of letters that involves all of the important lines that you're looking at, vertical, horizontal, you know, diagonal circles. So we work closely with them. So that's how we then created letters and numbers. We brought that out, but then the next thing we heard was like, you heard from Mountain View. Then we started hearing from a number of districts and different agencies. Like this is great. We just want to use it on all of our kids. So can we do that? So we said yes, but what we found out was the teachers really couldn't understand the results, because OTs and psychs are used to looking at a list of numbers and being able to interpret that, but teachers look at it and say, That's interesting. Now what right? So with that, then that's where we went to the screener. So that led us into the screener so that teachers would have this ability to use it on their whole class, and they could develop it or create, you know, use it with their whole class. So that's an in Mountain View. That's where we started working with them that way. There are now a couple of other districts that we've done the same thing with, and so with that, then, right now, it's been all by hand. We're going through the numbers and then creating groups for the for the teachers, and then giving them interventions, because that's what they were asking for. So I can tell you, from the cymark end, we're always listening to our customers. We really want to know what people think of it, what they're asking for, and then coming out with it. So then later this year, we will have enough data so that we will be able to standardize because people have been asking that really, since the inception, fantastic. Is it standardized? You know, that's always the second question. And so we will be coming out with that later on this year. We're looking at probably late summer, when the standardization part, yeah, so that will be ages four through seven. So it's been a journey, I can say. And it hasn't been a journey. It's something. When you create something and you put it out in the world, you may think you're doing one thing with it, but then how people actually use it and what they want like it, you know, we we really have listened, because it hasn't been the path, honestly, that we necessarily thought at the beginning.    Jayson Davies     Wow, yeah, I'm excited for the standardization. I honestly, you told me about this, what, maybe about four months ago or so, that you're kind of going down this venture. I didn't think it would be relatively soon. I thought I'd take a lot longer. So congratulations on that. Let's talk about that, though, in a I don't know, in my interactions with especially school based occupational therapy practitioners, I know your your people are definitely more than just school based ot practitioners. But to some degree, there is this idea that we don't. Need standardization tools, then, you know, let's not get into that discussion. But that is still great that you're doing it. Because, I mean, even if it is standardized, you can, you know, you'll still get data from it. But you talked about there being nine different aspects that this test looks at. Can you share a little bit more about that, and maybe briefly, at first point out, are you looking to standardize or get standardized scores for all nine or just a few?    Karen Silberman     Yeah, we are looking at all nine different areas. So with that, then the different areas that we have so there is an overall accuracy score, and that is made up of scale rotation, line consistency and noise. So scale and rotation, everyone understands line consistency is how close the line that that the person Drew is aligned with the line that was given noise are those extraneous lines that are outside. So I like to say that, you know, when you ask a child to draw a circle and then they make a happy face, so it's those which everyone any OT, I'm sure, as a psych, I saw that, so you see that. So those are the pieces that make up the accuracy score and and so you can see all four of those. The other parts of it are those we give right now as raw scores, because that we find as being more helpful to people. So it's that contact time, how much time was your finger or stylus in contact with the iPad. It also measures speed, so in centimeters per second, and it's measuring the line speed consistency. So was it back and forth line? Or, you know, were they going back and forth a lot, or was it a really highly consistent line? So these are some of the, you know, the overall scoring that we're we're looking at. So definitely the accuracy score and those pieces that make up the accuracy score will all all be standardized. What I can say is that we will still have available the progress monitoring, which is not standardized. Because, yeah, I've heard from ot some of them, you know, they say, Oh, we can only use standardized measures in our district, whereas others say, I don't care about standardized. So, yeah, exactly so, so they can use either or, and everyone understands the numbers with standardization. When it's not standardized, it takes a little more time to work through that. That's what that's what we're finding.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, wow, I just again. It kind of blows my mind, because we're so used to scoring tools by hand, by eye, maybe with a little clear layover that tells us if something is a centimeter you know, away from the line. And it's just amazing, because not only are you able to get quote, unquote like the accuracy scores, but you're able to get so much more information than just whether or not the shape looks like the shape is supposed to look like you're getting so much more than that. And again, that's something that you know you'd only get with with technology really quickly. Karen, yeah, sorry, when you first thought about this app, what were you hoping that it would be able to do?    Karen Silberman     Well, we had the idea that it would be self scoring and give people really precise information that you can't get, because here's the reality, and I can't speak for OTs, but in general, school psychologists, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but me right when you're out There assessing so many kids and you've got the the VMI, and it's just like, okay, you know the one zero, yeah, it looks right. It looks right. Hey, I'm, I'm guilty of that. And so, so there's the eyeballing approach. And so we thought, is this and and honestly, for school psychs, it's kind of like, okay, I did that. I had to get that done. So is there a way where we can provide people something that's really precise, very accurate, and is helpful? I mean, that's all. That's our bottom line. Is this helpful to the practitioners, which will then be helpful for kids, because visual motor has real life consequences for people, as I saw with my own son, and so any tools we can have to really better understand that to be able to support our students and our clients that way. Okay, that's, that's honestly our aim, so, so that that's where we came from, we didn't come from, and we want to have nine different you know, that was all through, honestly, it was through testing. We've done years of testing and looking at data and like running through it and running through it so so many times, that's where all of that came from.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, wow, wow, yeah. It just baffles me what we can do with technology. But it takes someone willing to go out there and spend 567, years making that happen, because it does take time. We appreciate it. Thanks. Going to Heather. Now, how does the use of digital tools like sidemark or or others, if you want to speak to anything else that you that you've used, how does that enhance your assessment process? Or has it changed the way that you've assessed? Is it still pretty similar? You just swap out one tool for this using sidemark? Or how has it basically improved or changed the way that you do evaluations?    Heather Donovan     Well, you know, I think having any assessment that is more efficient and quick to administer is great, but then the scoring piece kind of, what Karen was hinting at, is really the big one, right? Because I did a time study recently, and I think I spent 60 to 90 minutes a week scoring assessments, you know? And it was just, well, that was, that was during that time, it was very evaluation heavy time of year. But it just made me think, I'm like, Yeah, imagine if these things just score themselves much easier. And I do know that a lot of assessments are moving in that direction, right? Like, I think, like the Q global, like, you just enter it in and it scores, that kind of thing. So as far as this tool, you know, enhancing the assessment process, I would just say, like, having something that is more efficient and more accurate, of course, enhances it right so, and I describe it as, we all have our toolbox of assessments that we use, depending on what the you know presenting concerns are, and that's this is just one to have On your toolbox right as part of that assessment process. And if it's quicker and easier than some of the others, then I'm all for it.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And really quickly, remind me again, like when it's self scoring itself, does it take, like, you know, 30 minutes to process everything, or is it pretty darn instant?     Heather Donovan     It is pretty darn instant. I mean, I think it depends on your internet connection, because there's got to be that communication back and forth. But yeah, it's, it's pretty, pretty instantaneous. Yeah, wow.    Jayson Davies     So are you able to save those results or email them to yourself so you have them for later? Or how do you kind of, obviously, we don't write up our evaluation like in the moment that we see the kids. So do you just email it to yourself or?    Heather Donovan     Well, it's in the app. So I just Yeah, and I don't know Karen could probably speak to because that's the other thing. She's already mentioned this but she is, she's definitely, she's right that they take the feedback from what people say. And I say that because she's constantly they're making changes, but it's for the better. So she's like, how can we make this easier for people? So So, yeah,    Karen Silberman     yeah. So you can upload all of that, so just to let your listeners know too, the results that you get, it takes, typically three to five minutes. And so you can, as you're waiting there, it's scoring as long as you have Wi Fi. So you have to have Wi Fi to enter the demographic data and save that, and you have to have Wi Fi to score. So if you're in a location, because I know some districts I worked in, maybe there was Wi Fi at the district, but then it was really hard at schools. So as long as you you can administer the test without Wi Fi, and it will save that data. So then when you get to Wi Fi, you can score it, and once, once you score, it, it takes three to five minutes for scoring. So part of what comes up with the scoring is you get a graphic display. So we have two graphs, one one for the individual test results. So that's a bar graph, so you can clearly see differences in the scoring. And then the other one is a line graph, because it's progress monitoring, so you can see over time, how that student has done in all the all the different areas. And they're color coded, so we chose colors that people, even with visual problems, will be able to see. So. So that you can you can see, oh, what the accuracy score is. That's blue up here on my line graph. And you can highlight which areas you want to look at. So that if you're in an IEP, or if you're meeting with a teacher or parent, you can quickly and easily show them on the iPad what the results look like, but you can also download that so that all that information can be downloaded into your report from the iPad.    Jayson Davies     I love that. I just think that it's so nice that you can, like, go to an IEP and just copy and paste that, that bar chart into the IEP, and then a year later, if you are you know someone who does little like one, two page annual reports, like just an update on their goals, you can show you know the progress over time with a little chart from there. So that just makes our lives a little bit easier, and it also helps the parents right? Like we talk about data all the time, but I just find that at the end of the day, ot practitioners, we're getting better, but we're still not the best at showing data. A lot of other people are better at showing data than us, and so anytime that we can easily show data that that is just fantastic. All right, we're going to get into the interventions. But Heather, when you're using this tool to kind of look at the progress that a student is making. Are you typically using all three? Do you feel that you need to use all three, the shapes, letters and numbers? Or are you just kind of picking one or one or two? Or how does that work for you?    Heather Donovan     Yeah, no. So I it depends on the kid and their age, or, kind of like my experience with them, if they're newer, then maybe I'll do all three. But if it's a student that I know that I'm like, really focusing more on the letter formation, then I'm going to use the letters. In most cases, I tend to use the letters more than the shapes and numbers, mostly because I see the shapes tools are great just looking at underlying visual motor skills, right? Whereas for the letters, I'm really tracking the progress of that student's ability to form letters, if that makes sense.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha. And remind me again, how many earlier you talked about, like trying to figure out what letters to use and whatnot. And so how many letters does it go through? Does it go through the entire alphabet? Or Yeah. So    Karen Silberman     we have 16 different letters, and it's a mix of upper and lower case. And so with that, we did go to Heather and Kim and ask for their advice on what they what they advised for us. And so we we picked the letters that that they were advising, so it's a mix of these, but we didn't want to have, we didn't really want to have this wrote a, a, b, b, really. So we we wanted this nice mix, so it could really look at different letters, but give you the information that that you need so that the test itself is giving you this, this look at the child and what their abilities are, without having it a really tedious, long test for the child to sit through. So we have 16 different letters, and then we have the numbers zero through nine.     Jayson Davies     Okay, and kind of a follow up on that. Then we talked about the assessment piece, like the nine different areas that it's looking at. Are we finding in general, or do we not know yet if a score, if a child scores, you know, a certain score on the numbers, they're likely to score similar with the letters. Do we have any data on that yet?     Karen Silberman     Well, you know, so we do have other schools and districts that are using this as screener tools, and so we are getting a lot more data now that that is coming in, which is fantastic for us. I would say overall numbers for kids tends to be kind of an easier test. And kids tend to be, you know, you're seeing slightly higher abilities, and in the on the numbers test letters would run a close second to that shapes like Heather talked about is really tapping in. There's more cognition involved in shapes. And so with that, then you're really tapping more into those underlying visual motor skills. And so when you give all three, then you are I think it's a really nice look at kind of overall how the child is doing. And so that's, that's what we have been using with as screeners, like they, they give all three now when Heather and I work. Together in Mountain View the district, they wanted just letters and numbers to start with. And so the teacher started with letters and numbers to look at that. And then the interesting thing about that experience was in meeting with the teachers, and this is really, I think this is very unusual. Jayson, the teachers were so excited about it that they asked to give the shapes test. So this is not typically what teachers want to do is do more testing. But they they were really excited about what they were seeing with the kids, and so they said, Can we give the shapes test too, so that we can see that part two. So what, what we saw, though, with with that, with that group of teachers, was overall, broad success. So all of the kids did better that after, after eight weeks, we were seeing this, this wonderful success with the kids. The teachers wanted to continue it another four weeks to finish out the year. So we did that. So after 12 weeks, what we saw was kind of like all boats rose. Everybody did better. The exciting part about it, though, was we saw 48% increase in kids in the Proficient range for their visual motor skills. And so it was really a great success with that.    Jayson Davies     So first of all, two comments, and I think we'll, we'll head into the screeners versus the interventions next, just because that's where we're already going. First of all, I did not think that the shapes would potentially be more challenging to a degree, it almost sounds like more cognitive load than the letters and numbers. You almost think about that being opposite given the developmental stages of writing. So that's very interesting. But I guess by time you get into kinder, first second grade, kids are doing a lot of, a lot of writing, of letters and numbers and maybe less shapes at that point.     Heather Donovan     Well, and yeah, and I'm sorry, I just want to point out, though, when we're talking about the shapes assessment, you know, like, some of those shapes on the VMI, they're not, we're not talking Like, triangle, square, circle, you know, we're talking they get to some pretty complex shapes that some of these students have never seen before, but that's kind of the point, right? You're trying to see if these students can look at something they've never seen before and then copy it, you know? So I think that's why that particular assessment is probably more challenging.     Jayson Davies     Makes sense.    Karen Silberman     Well, yeah, she's exactly right. And it was done intentionally. Jayson, so the shapes test was intentionally created so that we do have a higher ceiling than, like the VMI, where the VMI, I mean, I was a psych at the high school for a period where I, I did not use the VMI on those kids, because it just it couldn't give me any more information, so I used other measures with them. But what we did was create this higher ceiling so that this can be used on on an adult population, so that if you're looking at someone with Alzheimer's, or, you know, other kinds of issues that could be coming up, we want to be able to target those, those higher ages and kind of more ability, so that as people Age, then it's still a strong tool to use, yeah,    Jayson Davies     the, I think it was the very last tool of the ravma still haunts me, like the 3d l looking shape, whatever it is, yeah, so that that's great that you were able to raise that ceiling. I think that's important. You want to be able to show true ability and not max out at a 3d square or something like that, which kids actually do work on sometimes in school. So awesome. All right. Well, let's lean into the screen, air tools. I feel like you've already teased this a lot, and we talked about a little bit, but I'm really excited, especially Karen, by what you were saying, where you've already seen teachers using this they want more, and that everyone is showing growth. So I think let's start with you mentioned that it includes letters, shapes and numbers. Does it include the whole gamut, or is it like a subsection of those,    Karen Silberman     right? And just to be clear, so the screener we had hoped it would be available. Now it's because I said it's really complex to create this stuff. We've actually had to push it out. We're looking at a March 15 date. Now I'm not sure you know when this airs, but that's, that's when we're looking at the launch date for it. Um. Um, the screener tool does involve letters, shapes and numbers. It's all three in the test. And with that, then the teachers will get or OTs. Actually. OTs are really interested in this too, and we have had OTs who have gotten so frustrated with their referrals that they've gotten. They said, we're just going to take the simmark test before we created the screener. We're going to take this and give it to all kindergarten students, because I'm so tired so but then it's, it's a lot for them to, you know, take in all this data and and then really look at the whole class, so we've helped them on that end. But what the screener tool will do is to do it automatically in the app. So what you'll get is, for each child, those individual results. So what range is the child falling in? And then it will explain that range. It will explain this child's strengths and weaknesses, and then it will give interventions. Now that the interventions, and this came directly from being asked by teachers. Okay, this is really interesting, but now, what do I do? Right? And that's why having Heather there was so incredibly important, because what, what we did in Mountain View was Heather. Could say, these are the interventions I recommend for all, all kids, you know. But some teachers said, Okay, I'm going to use these just with my intervention group. Some teachers said, I'm going to use it across the board. The exciting news we saw, you know, like growth with everybody, but the interventions are not super complicated. They're things that teachers can put in place, but it is targeting for that child, those individual results. So if they're having problems with rotation, it's going to give an intervention that directly works on rotation or scale, whatever it is, and then they can see their whole class list and say, Okay, this is how everybody did, and look at it that way. Or they can go in and look at individual results,    Jayson Davies     wow. Okay, I was going to ask you that then, okay, does it give you, like a whole class picture or individual, but it's both. It's both. It's both. Wow, yeah, sorry. I'm processing all of this right now because occupational therapy practitioner, I'm going to focus on on that, obviously, because that's who I know when I talk to you. Have two very different trains of thoughts when it comes to screening processes. And I'm sure both of you have kind of learned this over time, right? You have some people who think of a screening as almost a precursor to an evaluation for an individual student, and then you have the other, the other train of thought where a screening process is like the entire classroom, it's for a larger population, not an individual. And I lean toward that second aspect, where a screening is designed to be for an entire population. And so when I talk about screenings, I often talk about an occupational therapy practitioner going into the classroom and kind of getting a general sense of the entire classroom, not an individual student. So I like this because as an OT consulting with the teacher, if they've done this tool, they can a send me the results for the entire classroom, and I can provide general strategies. But if they they being the teacher, screen the entire classroom, they now have some data to share with me about an individual child as well if an evaluation is warranted, therefore, I am not needed for the screening process, per se, only to help them with the interventions which we're going to talk about in the moment. It sounds like Heather's already done some of that, but it takes out that need for me to go in and observe Johnny right like before he's on an IEP and kind of determine if he needs an OT evaluation. It's kind of this tool, to a degree, does some of that. So yeah, I know there's no real question there, but I'm just kind of giving my thoughts as to what I'm thinking about as thinking about as as an OT practitioner. I don't know if anything I said led to something you want to say. Well,    Heather Donovan     I wanted to I, you know, school districts, they use these kind of tools for other areas, right? Like, I ready Dora Adam to monitor things like reading, literacy, math. It highlights all these different areas on what they can do. And all these tools kind of come up with interventions, right? The intervention groups and who needs to work on decoding versus comprehension, and so it's, I just kind of see this toll similar, but looking at the visual motor skills side of it, right? So that's kind of how I would how. Yeah, I guess that's kind of how I visualize it being used. Yeah,    Karen Silberman     yeah. I mean that that is what we're looking at. And when we talk to school districts about it, we talk about research. Like I said, we are always going back to research. So the research, there's a high correlation between visual, motor skills and reading. So if a child is having visual motor problems, then there may be other kinds of problems with reading. This is also we're looking at this correlation in that in the state of California, starting this fall, all districts will have to give dyslexia screeners. So this we're looking at Cy Marc as being a tool that can go hand in hand. So we're looking at the teachers can look at dyslexia along with we're not calling it dysgraphia, but it's really like we we know that these two pieces go hand in hand, and so, so it's really giving that information about the individual child, but also, like as a group, how are people doing? And also, I think what's important to know too, is that our what we're looking at for our norms too, when we come out with the standardized version is that this will be post COVID, you know? So these are all post COVID norms. The norms from the VMI are the most recent ones are from 2010 and so when you look at like, Okay, what, because we, what we've seen, too, is a change in kids, visual motor skills, even since COVID And so our our norms are going to be very, very accurate in terms of what's happening now.    Jayson Davies     Wow. And Mrs. Smith or Mr. Johnson will like, immediately know whether or not the students one standard deviation, two standard deviations, or however you want to, in the 25th percentile, 17th percentile, whatever it might be. And the occupational therapy practitioner can work with the teacher and say, hey, if they're in the 25th to 40th percentile, use the interventions. If they're in the 10th percentile, let me know. Contact me. I want to be more impacted. Yeah,    Karen Silberman     and that can be, that can be up to the OT or the district however they want to manage it, but it will show those kids who, yeah, the intervention ranges that lower 10th percentile. And what Heather and I saw was that lower 10th percentile, Heather already knew most of those students, right. Wow. So, so, yes, so that's, that's what we're we're aiming for    Jayson Davies     quick side note, how often do you hope or think that you might be able to update norm?    Karen Silberman     Well, because we're the data is being collected constantly, then the norms, what we're looking at is really probably every year or two years that the norms can be updated, because as that data pool grows, then it will, you know, they will shift slightly, right, slightly, so we're not going to make changes for really tiny differences. But that that's another benefit of of the technology, is that we have this constant look at the changes, and so we can look at while the data is there's we're really highly aware of privacy, and so it's all disaggregated. We're not looking at any individual child or person, but we can look at the data as a whole, and then be able to see how how different ages are doing, and we will be able to compare that over time.    Jayson Davies     That's just mind blowing when you when you consider that or compare that to traditional pencil, paper assessment tools and whatnot, and a lot of tools end up, I don't want to say they die, but they end up no longer being used because they don't have updated norms, or the fan base is very frustrated that they haven't updated norms, and so that kind of is going to, for the time being, completely eliminate that difficulty with you, because you can, with sign market can, you can update it as necessary. So. So fantastic. Wow. I want to get into the interventions, but before I do anything else related to the screening process that we haven't covered.    Heather Donovan     So one of the things that I had brought up was, you know, the administering the test super fast, administering the scoring super fast, entering the demographic data. That's what was kind of the challenge for the teachers, right? They don't have like to like as an OT or assessing one student at a time. It's easy, you know, to enter that stuff in, but for a teacher to have to enter it for all of her students, that's a lot. And so I don't know if, Karen, you want to speak to some of the ways you're addressing this.    Karen Silberman     Yeah. So again, we're always listening and, and we're looking for stops, right? Like, what is the stop? What? What is the challenge here? And, and so it became apparent to us where, whereas OTs and psychs, we're used to entering demographic data for individual kids, but an entire class for a teacher is really time consuming, and especially if we want a whole all TK or all all tk to second grade teachers. So what we've done is that we would, we've developed a secure tool for districts to upload their data, so that will be part of the screener as well. We're going to have a toolbox that comes out with the screener, and part of it is that they will be able to upload their data all at once into a secure portal that then is sent to our team to download that data so that they when the teacher opens her iPad, her students are already there. They're already there, ready to go. So the easiest way to do that is to work with the tech department in any district so that we can upload that information. First, get the teachers ready to go, and then they will they will be able to access their their students. The other thing that we've added in to the screener is that teachers will be able to then after their school year is over, they can delete that class so they can bring a new class on board, but along. So that's one of the pieces that will come with the screener. And as I mentioned, we'll have a little toolbox. Because the other piece that we're finding is it's great. I love going out and training and being there in person and working with people in person. But the reality is now we have people in Rhode Island and in Massachusetts. And, you know, like, I would love to fly to all these places, but it's just really not feasible. So, so what we will put out with the toolbox, is what we're working on is, so when you first open the screener, it will have kind of an intro into this is how it works, but it will also come with a little training video, and then the ability to, you know, all their data will be uploaded. So we have all of these pieces, and they'll get a manual. I forgot the manual piece, so there will be a manual, like all of these pieces set up for teachers to be successful or OTs. Because, honestly, what I mostly have on my list of people who are, I've got a waiting list for the screener, are OTs. So we've got a lot of OTs just waiting to get this going in their districts. Yeah,    Jayson Davies     I think you're going to have a lot of OTs that that test it out, love it, and then fight hard for for the teachers to start using it and the districts to start using it. I'm assuming this can work both ways, but you can either pass one iPad around or log into several iPads and have all the kids take it up once. Or does it need to be one iPad kind of be passed around.    Karen Silberman     It's really it. So what? It isn't? So I should clarify this. It's not on the kids iPad. So if you have a class where, oh, all of my kids have iPads, it's not, it's not, it's really not for the kids to have. It's on the teacher's iPad. So the teacher's iPad. So maybe the teacher, and if she has an assistant, then they have it on their iPads, and they do what we've done with the testing, because I have a school that said we really need help with the testing. So we went in, helped with the testing. And again, at this point, we can do this, because we're, you know, yeah, but with that, what we found is you need to have a small group, so a group of kids, maybe three, maybe four, depending. I found, you know, kindergarteners can be well, like we saw with your son, right? They're very, very busy. And then you you have them go through the testing that way. Yeah. Yeah, so it's very fast for the kids. The kids have no problem with it. And I can say too that with our tests, we have OTs that have said, this is the only test where I've gotten any kind of result where if the kids who maybe are in the specialized autism program where they're not using any kind of pencil or paper, they refuse and have all kinds of behaviors. They can give them the iPad and get some kind of results to see, you know, how, how the child is doing. I love    Jayson Davies     that, because I kind of envision right like a paraprofessional or even the occupational therapy practitioner coming in, potentially sitting at the back table and just kind of one kid at a time, really quickly comes over five, seven minutes, whatever it takes, next, next, next, maybe it has to happen in three different sittings, but relatively quickly still. And to be honest, as an occupational therapy practitioner, I would probably be happy to help a teacher get this done, because I know the impact that it will have on potentially reducing my referrals. It might allow me to better support the teacher, so that I can again reduce the referrals that I get and help more kids at the same time. So with that, you did talk about some of the treatment piece side of things. And so when you get a screening results back, it sounds like you get a individual screening for individual student, but you also get the full class screening results per se. So when it comes to the interventions, is it more based upon the full class? Is it more based upon the individual or both? No,    Karen Silberman     it's individually based. So the the interventions were developed and actually ran them by Heather and our other OTs, who are, who are advising us. And the interventions are, are specific to the individual child. And I can say the interventions, though, are things that you could do with the whole class that they're nothing, they're not what an OT is going to pull out and do, like, really specific, but it's specific enough for that child where this is where they're having trouble. So this is an intervention that you could do with the trial,    Jayson Davies     gotcha very cool. And, Heather, I don't know if you have anything to add, kind of just what it's looked like for you. As OT,    Heather Donovan     yeah. So one of the things I noticed with the tool is, I don't know that a lot of the other assessments look at speed, right, the importance of and how that impacts. And what I noticed is that a lot of my kids, I'm like, they are just too fast, you know, and there's a lot of nuance reasons for that, like it being non preferred, or they have a hard time with mid range control or grading force, and, you know, they're just wanting to get it over with. But still, it made me realize, well, yeah, these kids are all just kind of rushing through. They're not going to get that distal control. So I say this because then it made me design more interventions that work on getting kids to slow down right. It's just and really working on that precision, the start stop. And then I also I did it on a larger scale. So I, once a month, I go into all the SDC classes and do like a full class lesson. And so this last month, I did it and targeted going fast and slow, and teaching them we really want to go slow, you know, when we're starting with this letter formation. So that's just one thing this tool pointed out to me that I hadn't really looked at, was the importance of speed. And so now I'm starting to get kids to try to slow down a little bit when they're working on those early, pre writing and writing skills.    Jayson Davies     Again, I just think this is going to be amazing. I think the data that you all are already getting and the data that you're going to get going forward is going to be amazing. And Karen and Heather and the others that are on the team, I hope that you will like, go to OT and go to a OTA and like present some of these findings, because I think it would be amazing to see Heather talking about, well, see this student scored really low on this and this and this, but they were high on the speed and kind of see some of the correlations that exist. And I think it's going to be a data that we've all wanted for a long time, but but have never been able to actually see because we didn't have a tool, a tool to do it, and now we have that tool, so I can't wait to see what comes of cymarq, and the future of cymarq, and how it evolves over time. And so Karen and Heather, I want to thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. And Karen really quickly, we will definitely post a link to the YouTube video that kind of gives a short, you know, intro or an overview. It really just kind of shows you what it looks like when you're in when you're in the app. But where can everyone go to learn more about cymar? Right?    Karen Silberman     So I am going to jump in here because we do have, like I've said before, we have, we're based in research. So I want to give some hot off the press findings that we have, too in research. So with that, we are conducting a concurrent validity study, and with that study, we are finding a moderately high correlation between the simmark tests and the VMI and so with that, it's really showing that like it's this growing body of evidence where, yes, this is a tool that is commensurate, or better than than what's available now. So very excited about about that. And then we would love to hear from your listeners. They can email me directly at karen@simmark.io , we're happy to give them a free 90 day trial of progress monitoring. If they're interested in bringing the screener to their districts, we'll also provide them a free trial. So with that and research, I keep coming back to that if they're interested in doing research, we'd love to join with them. In fact, we have an OT who went to one of our trainings, and she is now, she's in New Mexico, and she's she's doing research with us, so we'd love to do that too. So just go to our website@simmark.io we're also on LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook. We post every week. So we'd love to have you follow us and connect with us. So yeah, we'd love to, we'd love to have more OTs join us and also listen to their feedback.    Jayson Davies     Fantastic. Well, thank you both. We really appreciate it, and we'll definitely stay in touch and learn more.    Heather Donovan     Okay, great. Thanks, Jayson, thanks. Jayson,    Jayson Davies     thank you. All right, and that wraps us up for today. Please help me to thank Karen and Heather one more time for introducing us all to cymar if you want to learn more about the simmark tools and screeners, you can check them out@cymarq.io I've also linked in the show notes to a video on YouTube that provides a two minute demo for the testing and scoring using the cymarq apps. After recording, Karen also reached out and wanted to give a big thank you to therapro for helping them to roll out cymarq. Therapro has additional webinars that show exactly how the simmark apps work. I highly recommend giving them a watch. I believe there's two of them from back in 2024 and yeah, it'll just really give you a chance to look and see what the app looks like. As always. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you feel as inspired as I do by the potential of these digital tools to make what we do more efficient while also providing us with more usable data. There were some things here with cymarq that it can do that we would never be able to do with the VMI. And if you're excited to use the simmark apps for your evaluations, for your screenings, to help your teachers, be sure to forward this episode to an OT colleague so they can learn about it too. Thank you once again for tuning in, and we'll see you in the next episode.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 172 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In this episode, Doug Vestal, author, and financial guru, uncovers the path to financial freedom for occupational therapists. He will dive into the heart of money management and share how he and his wife tackled $150,000 of student loan debt in three years and offer invaluable strategies to help you do the same.  From budgeting tips to investing insights, Doug equips OTs with the tools to boost their financial health and leverage financial stability to become more effective practitioners. Whether you’re an OT seeking to start your own practice or simply aiming to get out of debt and plan for the future, this episode is your roadmap to financial empowerment.

At the end of this episode, we had a giveaway for Doug's new book. Unfortunately, the giveaway is now over. However, you can get your copy of Doug's book here . (Amazon Affiliate Link) Listen now to learn the following objectives: Learners will identify the importance of financial literacy Learners will identify strategies to help pay down debt Learners will identify budgeting strategies and how to allocate funds effectively Guests Bio Doug Vestal, Ph.D.  helps OTs achieve occupational choice and freedom through private pay practice. He co-founded The Functional Pelvis with his OT wife, Lindsey, and has over a decade of experience managing an OT private practice. Before working with OTs, he spent 15 years in senior management on Wall Street, including as Global Head of Counterparty Credit Risk at a major investment bank. Drawing on his business acumen and passion for entrepreneurship, he has helped hundreds of OTs build successful private pay practices. Doug holds a Master’s in Financial Mathematics and a Ph.D. in Applied Probability. He is dedicated to helping OTs gain treatment, time, and financial freedom on their terms.  He is the author of the only personal finance book for occupational therapy practitioners called "Financial Freedom for OTs: A Guide to Building Wealth Without Burnout" Quotes “Number one limiting belief, I think, is people are thinking that money is the root of all evil. And in fact, money is just a tool. Right? In and of itself, it's just paper. Right?.” - Doug Vestal, Ph.D. “So I know money in and of itself is not an activity…managing your money, budgeting your money, saving your money, investing your money… Money is an essential ADL .” - Doug Vestal, Ph.D. “If I'm able to accumulate more money in my life, it allows me to give back to the causes and to the people that are important to my life, and I have a lot more agency and choice. And that's a really beautiful shift to see a lot of my students go through.” - Doug Vestal, Ph.D. “A lot of our thoughts around money are very subconsciously driven by our experiences as when we were children. And so I always ask people to sit in a quiet place and recall, like, keystone memories from your childhood.”  - Doug Vestal, Ph.D. “Focusing and knowing that it's up to you to decide how you direct and use the money that you have is really empowering.”  - Doug Vestal, Ph.D. “The only way to beat inflation is to start investing”  - Doug Vestal, Ph.D. Resources 👉   Financial Freedom for OT's Book (Amazon affiliate link) 👉 Doug’s Email 👉 Income-Driven Repayment Plans 👉 Vanguard 👉 Fidelity 👉 Target Date Fund 👉 Freedom of Practice Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Jayson Davies     $120,000 that's the debt I incurred to earn my masters in occupational therapy degree back in 2012 compare that now to an estimated $213,000 needed to complete a top ranked ot program today, and my debt just looks like chump change. And yet this is happening every single year. The unfortunate reality is that every year, ot practitioners are entering the workforce with over $100,000 in debt, if not more, and this leads to way too many practitioners having to work multiple jobs, leave their hometowns for higher paying travel opportunities, or potentially even leaving the field altogether in order to pay off their loans. And while this problem isn't exclusive to school based ot practitioners or OT practitioners in general, this is one that I have heard about from many school based ot practitioners in my community, on social media and in replies to my email newsletter. That's why today I've invited Doug Vestel, author of financial freedom for OTs, a guide to building wealth without burnout, onto the show to share how ot practitioners can move from overwhelming debt to financial freedom. While Doug isn't an OT himself, his partner is, and together, they've navigated the journey from major debt to financial stability and in New York City of all places. So if you're in the process of paying off your student loans while trying to build an emergency fund, or if you are in the post loan stage and are working toward building your wealth, this episode is for you. We'll explore why money is often neglected as an ADL Practical Strategies for Managing debt and growing wealth for retirement, all from an occupational therapy practitioner standpoint. Oh, last thing, be sure to stay tuned until the very end of the episode, because I have a very special surprise for a few of you that do now. Let's dive in with Doug Vestal.    Amazing Narrator     hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Doug, welcome to the OT school house podcast, and congratulations on getting your first copy of your new book. That's awesome.    Doug Vestal     Yeah. Thank you so much. Jayson, I'm really excited to be here and talking with you absolutely    Jayson Davies     How does it feel to actually have this book in your hand?    Doug Vestal     I actually have it right here. I mean, it feels absolutely amazing. We were talking before you hit record. This is like the first time that I physically held a copy of it. And, you know, I've only seen the PDF before, and it just is an enormous sense of relief that I've actually gotten it to print and that it's going to be out in the world.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, financial freedom for OTs, it's a great I haven't gotten my hands on it yet, but I will, and I'm excited to share this with everyone, both here today in podcast form and then the book on its own. I know it's gonna be a great help to everybody. One of the most common topics within school based occupational therapy. In fact, all of occupational therapy, you know, we almost like, I don't want to say we judge one another on it, but we often will have the conversation like, hey, how much did your degree cost, right? Like, how much in debt are you right now? And so this is absolutely needed, and I can't wait to learn more about it with you today. So yeah, thanks for being here.    Doug Vestal     Absolutely I'm so excited to be talking with you.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, as we jump on, let's start with the monkey in the room, if you want to call it, you're not an occupational therapist, you are. You are not an OT No, I'm not, yeah. So let's dive into that. How are you connected to the world of occupational therapy?    Doug Vestal     Yeah. So my wife is an occupational therapist, and we've been together 23 years, married 20 years, and her and I together founded the first private pay ot practice in New York City focused on pelvic floor therapy for pre and post naval people. And the sort of deal that we struck was my wife, Lindsay, really loves the client aspect of private practice, and she was not that interested in all of the business stuff behind the scenes. And so we made this deal where I would work on all of the business activities, so things like the marketing and the sales and the strategy, so that she could really focus on all the client facing stuff, and through that, and through working with her. And then now I support a lot of OTs that are going into private pay practice. I get to have a lot of insight into the mindset of a lot of OTs, while still being able to look at it from a bit of distance, which I think has some some value to it. And so that's that's my story with, with working with my wife, and then the hundreds of OTs that I've supported. And through this, I found that. That financial challenges and financial mindset and limiting beliefs, without and within ot hold a lot of people back who really we should be supporting, because the work OTs do is absolutely incredible.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. And I, like you said, I know you're working with people who are trying to start their own business, and from my experience, right? Like one of the things that accelerated my ability to focus on my business the OT school house was paying off my student loans. Like we made it a mission to pay off our student loans. We did it in about eight years. Got a little creative with it, but I didn't feel like I could really focus on my business or focus on buying a house, or focus on, you know, any life big things, until those student loans were paid off, because it was like $1,200 a month or something like that. So I'm assuming that's kind of something that led to the creation of this book, to student loans. Yeah,    Doug Vestal     so for us, we paid off. My wife graduated from NYU, so she had about 150,000 of student loan debt, and a big turning point for us was really getting serious about paying that off. And so, and I talk about in the book, we actually paid it off in three years through a lot of creative living situations that we did in New York City. And looking back, she graduated in 2011 so 14 years ago, a lot of her classmates still have over six figures of student loan debt, and they don't have a lot of occupational choice in their life, because the decisions they have to make are based upon what they can afford each individual month, not necessarily based upon their values, and so what I'm hoping with the book is that OTs learn strategies to pay off their student loans much faster than they thought was was possible, find ways to increase their income, start saving for retirement, because at the end of the day, we're all hopefully live long enough that we're going to retire and we have to replace that regular, steady paycheck if we want to have a fulfilling retirement.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. So obviously, student loans is one of the big ones, but, and you mentioned kind of the paycheck to paycheck, but as you were talking to OT practitioners looking to start their business, or even ot practitioners that weren't looking to start a business. What were some of those key things that just kind of stood out to you that were like, oh my goodness, like, if only you knew this, I could help you, or if only you knew this, you'd be be able to get along. So what were some of those things? Well,    Doug Vestal     I think one of is really just not even acknowledging the role that money plays in our life, you know. And I really think I talk about it that money is an essential ADL. So I know money in itself, is not an activity, but I use it as an umbrella term, because managing your money, budgeting your money, saving your money, investing your money. So I use the just catch all phrase, like money is an essential ADL, and it's important to recognize the role that it plays, because those things that you talked about, Jayson, of wanting to start your business, really focus on that. That requires, of course, being resourceful, but it also requires resources, you know, and money gets a really bad rap in the popular media, because everyone focuses on the greedy, you know, CEOs and everybody else, but the end of the day, money is a tool, and you can use it to advance your calls and do good things, or you could use it for, you know, nefarious purposes. And every ot that I've met wants to make an impact, where they want to contribute to the community. And at the end of the day that takes resources to be able to do it, because it either takes your time, so you're foregoing other opportunities, or you are, or it requires your financial resources. And so a lot of the OTs that I mentor, that go into private pay practice, really have this mindset shift, especially around charging, that we could do a whole podcast around, you know, charging cash pay fees. But they really have the shift of going, if I'm able to accumulate more money in my life, it allows me to give back to the causes and to the people that are important to my life, and I have a lot more agency and choice. And that's a really beautiful shift to see a lot of my students go throug.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And I really like that. You mentioned ADL or money as an ADL. You kind of teased a few different areas of that. Let's dive into that a little bit. What are a few of those? If you want to call them sub ADLs or IADLs, maybe a money, yeah.    Doug Vestal     So I think it comes down to a few basic ones. So it's budgeting your money, right? So even, and we can talk about this, because a lot of people, I find they have a lot of stress when it comes to their financial situation, there's a lot of guilt and a lot of shame, and so what I see a lot is a lot of avoidance behavior. People have, you know, it's they won't even look at their bank accounts because they're scared of what they're going to find. And so the first step is really thinking about budgeting as an ADL. You know, where are your dollars going? And are you aligned from a values perspective, if you look at your spending on a monthly basis or over a six month basis, are are you really contributing to the things that light you up in life, that you find value in? And a lot of times, we find that we're spending money in places that aren't actually contributing to our overall satisfaction. And so it's a great exercise to start to shift and go, Well, maybe I can cancel this subscription, or maybe the type of house I live in is not as important to me as it is for other people. So I can downsize, so I can save some extra money to throw off, throw to my student loans. Maybe it's not important to me to drive the nicest car, and I'm fine with driving a 10 year old beater car, because that enables me to have a little bit of extra money to put towards my student loans and go on adventures with my kids, right? It's really getting on a conscious and intentional spending plan to direct that money, and then the next is really starting to invest. A lot of people are really scared to invest their money. They think it's really super complicated. They think that it's something that only rich people can do. But in fact, in this day and age, you know, it takes five minutes to set up a brokerage account with Vanguard or fidelity, and you can start investing $10 a month, let's say. And so those, those are the two big ones that I see the most, the budgeting aspect and then the investing aspect.    Jayson Davies     Okay? And you mentioned, you know, some people think of investing for those who already have a lot of money, and when it comes to budgeting, there's obviously some barriers there as well. What are some of those financial maybe tidbits that we picked up over the years that maybe aren't the best ones, and maybe they're even setting us back as opposed to pushing us forward.    Doug Vestal     Yeah. So I call those like limiting beliefs around money, and it really happens, I think, coming from childhood. So if we think about and I have this exercise in the book, but I think a lot of our thoughts around money are very subconsciously driven by our experiences, as when we were children. And so I always ask people to sit in a quiet place and recall like Keystone memories from your childhood, right? We all have these Keystone memories that we replay over and over again. We likely don't even share it with our spouse or our closest friends, right? But they made a big impact on us, and oftentimes there is a through line of money in those Keystone memories. And so I always ask people to sit down in a quiet, quiet room and really sort of meditate on those memories and see what role money played, because those scripts that we were fed from a very young age influence how we are as as adults. And that's where I think a lot of the money trauma comes from. That we experience is that we had parents who told us that money was the root of of all evil, or thinking about money makes you greedy, or, you know, rich people are bad, all of these sorts of things that get in our way of having a healthy relationship with with money. So number one limiting belief, I think, is people thinking that money is the root of all evil. And in fact, money is just a tool, right? It's in of itself. It's just paper, right? It's not or zeros and ones on a computer screen. It, in of itself, does not have a bias or an agenda. It's the people that have money who have a bias or agenda. So it's really like, what you do with it, right? It's up to you. It's, it's like having a knife. You know, like you could do that. You could perform surgery with that knife and cook a great meal for your family, or you could go out and choose something more nefarious. And I think just focusing and knowing that it's up to you to decide how you direct and use the money that you have is really empowering. It doesn't make you a bad person. In fact, it enables you to do a lot more good in the world. And that's the second limiting belief, I think, is that a lot of OTs will avoid thinking about money, because they feel like if they do good in the world, they don't need to focus on money. But the fact is, is that financial freedom allows you to do more good. It allows you to contribute to causes that you really want to support. It allows you to have occupational choice and get out of toxic work situations so that you can become the therapist that you always dreamed of. It allows you to drop down to four days a week so you can spend an extra day volunteering at your your kids. School, right? It allows you to put more emphasis on the values that you you actually have.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely, I, I agree, and it's hard from the OT perspective. I mean, even early on in my career, I had to make some choices right around money, around picking a job and fun story, actually, I haven't told this one in a long time. After about a year of being an OT in a school based realm as a contracted school based OT, I think my I was being paid hourly, but my salary would have been probably around 55 to 60,000 if I had added it all up, that was my first job out of out of school. A year later, I took an interview at a school district that was about an hour away from home when I was only working like maybe 15 minutes from home before, but the pay was starting around $105,000 a year. Yeah, an extra 50,000 Right? Like easily. Not to mention the benefits were improved, because it was a district job versus a contract job, and there are so many benefits. But the downside is it was an hour away from work. My wife actually thought that if I took that job, my now wife thought that if I took that job, we were basically over like, she's like, Oh, you're never gonna see me. You're never going to have time for me. You're always going to be driving. And that was a very tough decision, right? Like trying to figure that out, and me reassuring her, like, look, I can still have time to come to your house and you'll be over here, and all that fun stuff, right? That we that we have in relationships, but money was definitely a key aspect in that, because, like you said, I had a plan. A lot of that extra $50,000 that I was making every year went straight to my student loans to pay off those student loans so that I could get to a point where I didn't have to worry about paying an extra $1,500 or $1,200 or whatever it was, every single month for the degree that I held. And so this really does impact us really early on in our careers, obviously, money, and yeah, it's definitely something that I'm glad we're having a conversation with. And kind of also leads to the idea that OTs don't talk about money and not just because of the reasons that you talked about like there's that taboo of not talking about money at work with your colleagues. There's taboo about not we're talking about money with your significant others. Me and my wife, we're very open about money. Our accounts are connected, but I know friends of mine that like they've been married for longer than my wife and I, and they're still very separate. With their money, everything is completely separated. And I'm not saying that to say one way is right, one way is wrong. I'm just saying that it's different, and a lot of us aren't talking about it. And so I think that's why it's so important to have this conversation. So I don't know if anything I said prompted anything for you to think of.    Doug Vestal     Well, yeah, and just to add on to that. So, you know, money, arguments around money are the leading cause of divorce in the United States, so more so than arguments on any other other topic. And so it's really something that we can try to avoid it for a long time. But, you know, it's kind of like your mental health and physical health, like with your financial health, if you avoid it, it's eventually going to catch up with you. And so having the ability to talk to your spouse about it, your significant other, you know, even when you start a relationship, making sure that you're on the same page financially, because literally, like most of the big Keystone decisions you make in your life, are going to have some element of money. Always say, like, look at Maslow Hierarchy of Needs. You know, every single line of that pyramid has money as a requirement. As you go up that Maslow hierarchies of needs, like, it's there from from day one, and we've just been sort of conditioned over time to downplay its importance. But we're all walking around incredibly stressed about money, so why don't we just start talking about it and have strategies to deal with the stress and get out of that state?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, let's take a step back earlier. You mentioned the two main areas that that people should probably be focusing on is budgeting and investing. So let's kind of break down those two really quickly here. When it comes to budgeting, I have over the period of my money making life have gone back and forth with over budgeting versus under budgeting. And when I say over versus under budgeting, I'm not talking about like the amount in dollars. I'm talking about like how detailed I get, you know, like, I've got 23 categories one year, and then the next year I've got like, five, and I just go back and forth. I'm like, How much do I really need to kind of break this down? How much time do I really want to invest in this? Right? What are some tips that you kind of have for those who either a don't have a budget or, like. Me kind of struggle with figuring out which way to just kind of how to actually make it consistently in my life. What are some tips?     Doug Vestal     Yeah, yeah. So the what I recommend is 5030, 20 budget, just round numbers. So 50, no more than 50% of your income should be an in fixed expenses, so things like your car payment, your mortgage payment, or your rent payment, student loan, things like that. Then 30% for variable stuff like gyms, you know, the food that you're buying, any subscriptions that you have, and then 20% for investing. And if you just can invest 20% over a decade, you will become financially free. The math is on your side. It's just pretty much guaranteed that's going to happen. It's not going to happen within two years, but it will happen within like 20 to 25 years. And so for me, personally, I don't even really look at it at a super granular level, I look at, are we with the 5030, 20, and so we will just put all of our fixed expenses in that category. Are we at 50% we at 60% 70% and then the thing that's really important, because it's so hard to the reason why budgeting gets such a bad name. And I actually hate budgeting, like I wrote a book on personal finance, but I hate budgeting, which may come as a surprise to some people, but it's because I don't want to, like, sit there and count receipts and look at how much I spent on gum and mints and everything, like, there's just more pressing things to tackle. But my biggest tip is look at the big expense categories of your life. That's where you're really going to move the needle the most. And for most people, that is going to be their housing expenses, their their student loans and their their cars. If you can tackle those three categories, that is going to be the most impactful, versus switching out to the brand name cereal, and so that's where I always recommend everyone start and see if you can make big shifts in those big categories. Does that make sense?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think about my life, and we have definitely kind of done that. And the other thing that I'll add is that it changes over time. Your values change over time. You know, for three, four or 510, years of your life, maybe you really value travel, and then for the next 10 years, you really value having a house or whatever it might be, right? Your values change. It could be cars. You talked about that earlier, all right, so that's the budgeting side, and I want to talk about the investing side in a moment. But first, something that always comes up, and I dealt with it for many years myself, especially when you have loans, is trying to figure out paying off loans versus investing, doing both at the same time. You talked about 5030, 20. Well, can I still put 20% away if I've got 30% of my entire budget as loans, right? What's your thought on that?    Doug Vestal     Yeah, it's a great question. So I think a lot of OTs feel financially trapped because of a really bad combination of two things. So you have really high student loan debt and relatively low salaries, and low salary increases relative to that student loan debt. And so we really have to approach it in two ways. And one is finding ways to pay off your student loan debt even faster, to free up extra money each month. And then the second is any ways that we can increase your money because you want to decrease your expenses at the same time you increase your income, so you have a lot of extra stuff to throw at your debt. What I would say is, especially with interest rates being where they are, you are much better off financially paying off your student loans as fast as possible. You know, like there's a lot of repayment periods that are 10 years, 15 years, 20 plus years, and it's kind of conditioned into us that, well, that's just the term. So it must be okay to take 20 years to pay off our debt, or 15 years to pay off our debt. But I would ask the more radical question, which is, how can you become debt free in the next five years? Like, how can you do it really, really fast? Because every dollar that you send to paying off your student loan debt is a guaranteed rate of return given the interest rate on your student loan. So if you have a 7% interest rate on your loan, every extra dollar you're sending to that you're basically saving 7% alternative if you you went and invested in the stock market, the long term average returns are around 10% so it's not that huge of a of a difference. And so sending as much extra money to your student loans and paying those off in a few years and living like a student. It right after you get out of OT school, you'll never I've never met anyone who regrets paying off their ot student loan that faster. I know you did it fast. We did it fast. I've interviewed OTs on my on my YouTube channel that paid it off in a couple of years. They've never regretted it. And so to circle back to your question, I would prioritize paying off your student loans before investing with one caveat, and that is, if you have some sort of employer match for your retirement account, I know for a lot of school based OTs there, they're not going to have that. So it might not be super, super relevant, but for others that are listening that either have a 401 K or 403 B in the 403 B comes with a match that is just free money that your employer has given you. It's baked into the cost of your employment contract and the cost of hiring you. And so if they match 5% of you know your salary, if you also contribute 5% I would set your investments up so that you are contributing that 5% and then all extra money gets sent to your student loans. And then once you are out of student loan debt, then take all that extra money that you've been saving and start investing that each and every month.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and that's basically what I did, aside from, you know, a few months here and there, where I convinced myself that I really needed to invest and so I would, you know, dump a little bit of savings into an investment. But, yeah, I kind of am on the same board with you with that one. That's kind of the approach I took for the most part in I feel better about it because I knew that, yes, I could average in the stock market about 7% potentially, I kind of try to go the conservative route. I'm conservative when it comes to me making money. I'm very loose when it comes to saying how much I'm losing, right? So I would average up my loans and say they were 10% in reality, they were six or 7% but yeah, and I really wanted to knock out those loans. For me, I tackled the highest percentage loan first, even though it was the highest amount. I know there's different names like snowballing and whatnot. Do you recommend one versus the other? Or is it just kind of whatever works for you? What do you think?    Doug Vestal     Yeah, I talk about both strategies than the book. So the snowball method and at the Avalanche method. And so just to recap, so you can have you could go and attack the highest balance first, or you could attack the highest interest rate. So sorry, the lowest balance for us, what we did was we wrote down in Excel all of our loans. They were with no net at the time, and sort of just like, listed it down, and we didn't attack the highest interest rate, even though, long term, it would have saved money, we attacked the lowest balance. So for us, we wanted to be able to just eliminate that loan as a category. We had, like an $800 loan, and it felt so good to eventually just pay that off and not have to pay that anymore. Then we went to like the $1,200 loan, then we went to the $6,000 loan, then we went to like the $15,000 loan. And for us, that was really motivating, because we could see the progress happen very early in the beginning. And so we just felt like we were making so much momentum that that gave us the motivation to keep going forward, because it is tough to do right? You have to have a lot of discipline, and if you're not seeing that progress, it can kind of be demotivating. So I'm so glad to hear that that the alternative worked for for you.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and I'll be again Frank, you know, it's when you're sitting down at the time I focused on mint. I'm so sad that mint doesn't exist anymore, but that's what I use to track everything. And while I focus on the highest percentage, there was definitely a few times where it's, like, this lower loan, it cost you $1,000 I've got $1,000 in the bank. I'm just getting rid of that one. Like, once it got to a certain point. I didn't want to have to deal with that one, because I knew that the following month, that's an extra 100, $200 for that payment that I can now snowball. That's where it comes from, right? Um, Snowball. That money now to one of the larger loans. So it was kind of a combination of the two, but I definitely prioritized those higher interest rate rate loans. So kind of going back to the numbers that you shared earlier, 5030, 20, 50% being your your fixed numbers, or your fixed expenses, 30% being some variable, and then 20% for for savings, if you have loans, it sounds like more that 20% is going toward the loans, right?    Doug Vestal     Yeah, exactly. I would be putting that 20% towards the loan and seeing if you can even increase it. So for us, the way that we were able to pay off 150,003 years was we downsized our living environment. We had we had just started our private pay practice and. Our kids are two years apart. I think they were four and two at the time, and we moved into a one bedroom apartment in New York City with two young kids, you know, and we put up a temporary wall in the living room so they could have space. And we just threw every extra dollar that we had so much more than the 20% like, probably 50% of our income we were just sending to the student loans to get rid of it as quick as possible. And what was amazing Jayson was it did a number of things for us, like immediately downsizing. We just felt so much more like expansiveness, you know, because we finally had a little bit of wiggle room, because we had been living paycheck to paycheck, essentially. And so we did start prioritizing, like going on date nights, which was fantastic, like with a four year old and a two year old. It was tough to find a babysitter that we trusted leaving them with. But once that happened like that, was amazing for our marriage and living in a smaller space. I mean, apartments in New York City are already small, but living in a smaller space with our young kids brought us really, really close as as a family, and we ended up staying there for close to four years, in fact, and even now, like, we live in a much smaller house than we could afford, because for us, it that's just our values, you know, like, we don't want to buy a lot of furniture And we don't want to spend time cleaning it and dealing with all the things that go wrong. We would rather spend that time and energy putting the kids in activities and doing hobbies with them and traveling with them. And so I would say, if you're looking at like that six figure loan or multiple six figure loan, you know, back into like, what do you need to be paying on a monthly basis to be able to pay it off in the three to five years. And where, in that 50% fixed expense category, can you make some of those big moves so that you now have more than 20% to throw at your student loans?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, one other thing that's really helped me, or at least with my mindset, is just hopping on Google and finding one of those calculators that will tell you how much you'll save just by paying an extra 10, 2050, bucks a month. Like, it's amazing how much you can actually save just by paying a little bit extra every month.     Doug Vestal     Oh yeah, yeah, the cost of the long term cost of debt is, is astronomical, you know. Like, you can especially true on credit cards, because the the interest rate is so incredibly high there. But with student loans like it's not uncommon to have 100,000 of student loan debt. And if you took the entire repayment period, that $100,000 would actually end up costing you about 280,000 just from interest payments, you know. And so it's like doing that calculation is very, very eye opening.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. It really helped me. Whenever I'm like, Oh, I don't need to make an extra payment this month, I use that calculator. I'm like, All right, just an extra 50 bucks a month can save me like four grand over the course of the loan. Absolutely. Let's do it exactly. Yeah, okay, for someone who hasn't looked at their student loan documents in a little while. Is there anything that they should really be able to know? Like, I don't know. I think of student loans, you mentioned, different ways to pay it off, different time lanes and percentages, obviously. Like, if there's something on that loan that someone needs to know, or do they just need to pay it off extra every month.     Doug Vestal     They I think they just need to pay it off extra each each month. Because, look, there is a difference between secured and unsecured loans and all of that stuff that people will talk about. But once you graduate, all of those loans terms are pretty much the same, right? The length of repayment might be different as well as the interest rate might be different, but the behavior of the loan itself is really the same. The purpose of the secured versus unsecured is really what's happening to the accumulated interest payments while you're still in school. So once you graduate, they're really kind of all the same. And I would just tack it in either that snowball or that that Avalanche Method, okay?    Jayson Davies     And one last question I'll ask you about about the loans. And then we'll move on to the investing side of things. Is as school based ot practitioners, there's an option for some of us, not even everyone, that we might be able to have our loans forgivens, whatever term we want to use, and you might have the right terms. But is that something we should rely on? Is this something that we should plan for? Is it something that we should not worry about and still try to pay off early? Do you have any guidance on that?    Doug Vestal     I think so there are like the repayee program. Is you so to think about the income driven repayments. Are you asking about income driven repayments? Or I    Jayson Davies     know there's income driven repayments, and then I also know that there's also, like, it's not specific to teachers, but people that work in public sector, after 10 years, sometimes they can be forgiven. I don't know how it works, totally, and I. Um, yeah, any thoughts you have on that? Yeah, so    Doug Vestal     that's the that's the repay program, and that's actually a decent program, because when the loan gets forgiven, you don't pay taxes on it. So other income driven repayment plans actually come with a big tax bill when the loan gets forgiven, so it's treated like that amount that you're forgiven at the end is treated like income to you, and so you can end up with a hefty IRS bill at the at the end of it, versus the public service loan repayment plans that sort of gets forgiven, and you don't have to pay taxes on that. So that's a good that's a good way. However, what I would say is it really depends on the individual in their work environment, because I don't think it's great for people's health and mental health to stay in a toxic work environment just to have some loans forgiven. So I would rather them switch to a higher paying place, somewhere where the benefits are greater, somewhere where they are enjoying the clients, their co workers, their their boss, because this is your this is your life at the end of the day, right? And so making sure that you are that the work environment is really great, I think, is the number one thing, and then making sure that you're not underpaid, because sometimes these positions come with underpayment from a salary perspective and long term, financially similar to what you said, you're better off finding the job that makes you $105,000 a year versus the $50,000 A year throwing that extra at the student loans, and now you have a salary of 105 and your salary increases based upon that, so now you have extra money to start giving to your retirement. Does that make sense? Yeah,    Jayson Davies     yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I again, I think every person's cases is different, right? For me, I definitely, I knew that that was an option the 10 year repayment plan. And so I think for me, I focused on the ones that weren't part of that first. But as soon as you know, it made sense to start focusing on that. I absolutely did. And yeah, it really worked out. So, yeah, I think that's it for the student debt. Anything else you want to add? I know we've focused on student debt, any other debt that you want to discuss really briefly?    Doug Vestal     No, I would just say for the others that are in the income driven repayment plans, that's not part of the public service work is, if you're eligible for that, I would enroll in it, but I would make extra payments. So it's great to decrease your monthly payments, because it gives you a little bit of financial flexibility. I just wouldn't treat that as like a 15 or 20 year endeavor. I would start looking at ways to throw extra money to the student loans, because even though you're in that program, you can send extra and you can repay it faster than the terms of the loan.    Jayson Davies     Awesome, perfect. All right, let's move on to the savings side of things. Instead of the spending all the money we have in our account types of things, let's talk about that investing side of things, and I don't know, let's just kind of assume that someone you know finally paid off their student loans, or maybe they've got their student loans low enough to the point where they're feeling confident and saying, Hey, I'm ready to start saving. You mentioned Vanguard and fidelity. Where should someone start?    Doug Vestal     Yeah, so I think someone should start with understanding, like, kind of how investing works and why you want to invest. And so for that, I always talk about compound interest. So I know Jayson, you're very familiar with compound interest, and you probably know this example, but I like to use it, which is, would you rather have $1 million today or a penny that doubles every day after 30 days. So you can have a million dollars a day, or a penny that doubles every day after 30 days. So that Penny tomorrow is going to be worth two cents, the next day is going to be worth four cents, then eight cents, and so on. What I    Jayson Davies     will say this the side of me that has a lot of things that need to be done around the house. Really want that million dollars right now, but I again, let's go with it. The penny. What does that lead to?    Doug Vestal     So after 30 days, that Penny, doubling every day, will be worth 5.4 million. And after 30 days, after 30 days is worth 5.4 million. And so the purpose of that is that, and I have the chart and the graph in the book is it really doesn't start to accumulate until, like day 26 and then you start doubling a big number, right? So it starts off really, really small. It doesn't look like anything's happening. But. But it's like building a snowball, right? Like the way to build a snowball is you start with a little rock, and you find a big hill, and you roll it down the hill, and slowly it's accumulating, accumulating, accumulating, and then now suddenly you have this humongous thing. And that's what compound interest is. Obviously, the time, like nobody's going to find this magical Penny. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't exist, but it illustrates like the power of compound interest, and that's really what you want from investing, is to take advantage of compound interest, and the main way to do that is investing in the stock market, right? So you basically go out and you buy shares of a company. So you are now part owner of Apple, or you are part owner of, you know, your favorite company that you go to, and when that company does well, if they make more and more products that other people want to buy, they earn more money, and their share price goes up. And over time your investments go up. Of course they can go down, right? But speaking broadly over the long run, and investing is something that investing is not gambling, right? Gambling is you're hoping to double your money you know immediately, or you might lose it. Investing is something that you takes decades, right? And so you're really putting a lot of your confidence in the strength of all of the companies in the US, all the companies in the world, to keep generating this economic activity. And so that's the that's the number one thing is, is knowing that it's not like gambling. Yes, it is risky. You could lose money, which is why I say don't invest any money that you need in the next five to 10 years. Is really a long term sort of thing. But that's the thing that's going to allow you to outpace inflation, right? We've seen in the last five years enormous inflation, right? Look at the cost of all your grocery bills, right? Costs are going up, and if you're not in a position where you have investments that track the cost of that and exceed it, then your purchasing power is diminishing substantially over time. And so the only way to beat inflation is to start investing. And the only way to really build financial freedom is to start investing. That's the only thing that's going to allow your money to compound and work harder than you working. And so the best place to start is really looking at any retirement plans that your employer offers. So you know, for schools, obviously there's, there's pension plans. Some will also offer 403 B's or 457 B's. If you're not in that, maybe you have a 401 K so looking at these retirement plans that your your company offers, making sure that you're maximizing your contributions to that because typically they're, they're pre tax, so it's better for it for you from a tax situation, and then making sure that you're actually going in and picking the investment choices. It's not enough just to have the account. You also have to direct where the money is going inside of the account. And the easiest thing by far to do, because I don't want people sitting there picking stocks or individual things. You want to purchase a broad, diversified, low cost index fund. It's something that is passively managed and just buys a basket of 5000 companies, and you sit back and you don't have to worry about it. But great way to do that is to do something called a target date fund. So this is a fund that will automatically purchase stocks and bonds in a certain combination, and they will readjust it according to how close you're getting to retirement. So if you're far away from retirement, it will be really super aggressive and more heavily invested in stocks. If you are really close to retirement, it's going to decrease your investment in stocks and increase your investment in bonds. And so if you had it's 2025 now if you desire to retire in 30 years, you would purchase a target date fund of 2055, let's say, and that will take care of it automatically. You don't have to do any rebalancing on your own. That is the easiest and fastest way to get started. Outside of that, you could just choose your own sort of broad, broadly diversified index funds,    Jayson Davies     yeah, it's, it's so interesting. The target date funds, those are relatively new, and I never heard about them until recently. And I was like, Oh, that's a very unique concept, and it makes sense. And the only other thing that I'll add to it is someone told me that if you want to, if you are more conservative, you could choose a target date fund that's a little bit earlier than your retirement date. And if you're you know, a little bit more of a go getter, and you're not worried as much about the stock market, you could pick a target date that's a little bit further out than your target retirement date, and it'll stay a little bit more stock heavy for a little bit longer time. So yeah, very I like how it auto adjusts everything for you, though you don't even have to worry about it. What you just. Put it in there, and it really is gonna make the changes you need to make for you.    Doug Vestal     Exactly. Yeah, it's great.    Jayson Davies     Very cool. All right, let's get to something that, yes, it's related to money, but it's actually more tied into our ability to feel good about work, hopefully and also be more successful at work. And I want to ask you, just in general, as you've worked with so many different clients, ot practitioners, how has financial stability impacted the OT practitioners that you've worked with, their ability to actually support their clients?    Doug Vestal     Yeah, it's a great question, so I would say it comes from having less stress, and when you are less stressed, you can be a better therapist, right? Like we know the impact that stress has on the body, right? We know the impact that it has on your sleep routines. We know the impact that it has on your relationships. We know the impact that it has on your digestion, right? Like stress is real and money, stress is real. It's the primary source of stress in most people's life. And so how can you be really fully present and giving in a session? If you are worried about your rent check clearing, right, or you are having to go to a second job to be able to make ends meet, it's going to be very tough. I'm not saying it's not possible, but what I've seen is that you can become a better occupational therapist by having less financial stress in in your life, because it's going to allow you to show up more fully as the OT that you want to be in your sessions, because you're not going to have this through line of financial stress, coloring everything and all of the interactions that you're having.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and I think that that is true whether or not you want to start your own private practice or you're a school based occupational therapy practitioner and simply want to best support the students that you serve. I mean the financial stress, even if you're not under financial stress because of your living paycheck to paycheck, even just the financial stress of opening a credit card or having to move from one rental to a new rental because prices are increasing a little bit like, yeah, it kind of comes back to the money, right? Like, if, if we had the money in the right situation, maybe we wouldn't have to move homes, which then causes the stress of moving, which then causes the stress of getting new internet and utility bills set up and all that other stuff that goes along with it. So totally agree with that. I think that it is something that's essential, and I think you've framed it in the great way by saying it's an ADL, and it's an ADL that we often don't think about as an ADL. In fact, I don't think it's an official ADL. Is it? Is it an ADL?    Doug Vestal     I don't think it, I don't think it is, yeah, but it's, I know everyone knows that managing money and budgeting and everything is an ADL, but what I'm hoping to accomplish is, okay, well, we need to go deeper than that and go like, what do we actually do now? Right? It's not enough to say it. I think a lot of people will know it, but they don't have, necessarily, the tools and the techniques in their own life, and if they're not applying it in their own life, then how can you help your clients with it?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And I did look it up. It is under according to OT it is an iadl, which I thought so, but I agree with you. I think it's more of an actual ADL, not just an instrumental activity of daily living, but a full on, like in your face, activity of daily living, it really does make a big difference in everything you do. We all have to deal with money every single day of our lives. It really is an essential. ADL, so kudos to you for bringing that up. I really appreciate it. All right, given the fact that I had to look up the money management was an iadl, obviously this is not something that is well taught in occupational therapy school. I think it's no surprise that money business, it's starting to be taught more in educational programs, but it definitely is not at the forefront of it. So from your perspective, if you were consulting with the NYU Boston universities and USC is, what would you want them to implement into ot education? About money for OTs.     Doug Vestal     Yeah, it's a great question. I would break it down to two different aspects. So one would be like basic financial literacy, and the other would be career path planning. So I think within the financial literacy, spending a lot of time talking about the budgeting, the investing, the student loan management that we've been been talking about so that new grads coming out can start attacking their student loan debt and their financial life with a plan, you know, like we're not really giving new OTs a plan to. Help them in this arena of their life. And I'm pleased so far, like a couple of OT programs have reached out, and they're actually going to require this book to be required reading in their leadership management class, which I think is, is great, you know. And I hope other universities will do the same as as well, because this is something that every single ot OTA needs to become very fluent in, and then the other is career path planning. So I would love to see there are more discussions around private pay entrepreneurship, salary negotiation, as well as how the insurance business model works, because I think a lot of OTs come out of school. They don't understand reimbursement and how it works, you know. And so then that ham that hinders their ability to negotiate salary raises, because there's been so focused on the delivery of the care, but not necessarily the financial implications of the delivery of the care. And then they get into a situations where they're working for a business, and the business is making financial decisions that maybe they don't exactly understand or appreciate or even agree with, right? And so just setting it up for like, actually, this is how the business of healthcare works in America, and you can have a very different life if you work in a school versus sniff versus home, health versus a private pay practice and understanding those different environments at a more granular level, I think would allow more OTs to go into that with a little bit more choice and agency.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. I still, to this day, am baffled by Medicare, Medicaid, all the insurance pain. I think it would also be really important for us to understand, because not knowing all that, in a profession that is very heavy on advocacy limits our ability to advocate for ourselves, both in our job, but also outside within the profession. And you know, talking to senators like it's hard to talk to senators about asking them why they're cutting Medicaid, when we don't know where the money is going and all that fun stuff. So, yeah, I think that's really important, and something I wish I knew more about, because to this day, I still get confused all the time about it, and I definitely could not lead a webinar on Medicaid, medi, Cal, all the fun stuff. So great. Well, Doug, I want to say thank you, but before I let you go, your question about your book financial freedoms for OTs, what is the most surprising or impactful lesson that you hope readers will take away from reading your book?     Doug Vestal     Yeah, it's a good question. So I, in advance of publishing the book, I got about 25 different advanced readers who were all professors at different ot programs, or OT a programs, and most of their quotes are in the in the beginning of of the book, and the feedback that I got from them is exactly what I wanted to be, which is, wow. I didn't realize that I had been avoiding this topic for so long and just how important it was. So one of the persons who is the head of an OT program, she sent me a personal email, and she was like, you'll be glad to know that we just paid off our 11% credit card. And in the last two weeks of reading this book, I shared all of the strategies with my husband, and I came to realize that, like I was the person you were talking about in the book, who's been avoiding this, and avoiding coming up with a plan, because I thought it was too insurmountable. But now I'm using the tools and techniques, and I feel a lot more confident about the future, and so that really encapsulates what I want OTs and OTs to get out of this book, which is the feel empowered, to feel that this is an important topic, but equally, have the right tips and techniques that they can start to implement immediately in their life to find financial freedom over time.    Jayson Davies     That's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah, we got to stop avoiding stuff, and money is definitely something we cannot avoid, because we got to pay our bills. We got to get gas in the cars. We got to pay for those tolls and and before I let you go Doug, for everyone who has really appreciated everything that you shared today, and want to have everything kind of put for them in the book, and they really want to learn more about this. Where can they go to grab the book and learn more about you?    Doug Vestal     Yeah, so they can buy the book on Amazon. Just search for financial freedom, for OTs, a guide for a building and wealth without burnout. It's available there in paperwork version as well as Kindle version, depending on what your preference is. And then my website is freedom of practice.com where I have a lot of free resources on starting a private pay practice. And then I post regularly on Instagram at vestibular Doug, and then on YouTube, at. Doug vestiblo.    Jayson Davies     Awesome. Got the YouTube channel excited for that. Oh, right. One more time, Doug, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate you sharing everything from budgeting to wiping down those student loans and then investing for the future. I think that everyone who reads your book is going to have kind of that, that moment where they realize, yeah, you know what, I can't I can't keep avoiding money, and that is a great way to see this out, like it's not about making you a millionaire. It's not about making you a billionaire, although a lot of teachers are millionaires, as you pointed out to me once upon a time. But yeah, it's about being in control of your own personal financial situation. And we really appreciate having you here.    Doug Vestal     Yeah. Thank you so much, Jayson, and thanks for helping me spread the word.     Jayson Davies     All right. And that is going to wrap up this episode of the OT school house podcast. But before you go, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, I have a special surprise for you, and that is that I have purchased 10 copies of Doug's financial freedom for OTs book, and I want to send it your way along with a little ot school house swag. Why? Well, because I want to help you reach financial freedom. More importantly, I don't want you to have to take your next job that you potentially loathe due to a financial hardship reason. I want you to be able to have the freedom to say no to a bad job and good to a great job, even if it pays a little less. So if you want to take me up on this offer, shoot me an email at podcast@otschoolhouse.com and let me know one takeaway from this episode that struck a chord with you. That's it pretty simple, right? I will then send a copy of financial freedom for OTs to the first 10 ot practitioners who do, and if you're not one of the first 10, don't worry, I will still reply to your email and give you some quick encouragement. So I hope you will take me up on this. I know many of you won't, but the ones who do will be in for a great read again. The email is podcast@otschoolhouse.com and before we sign off, I want to give one last big thank you to Doug for coming on the show. You can learn more about his book on Amazon and learn about him and how he supports ot practitioners over at Freedom of practice.com thanks again for tuning in, and I'll catch you next time.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed. Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. 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Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 170 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Discover the transformative power of nature in the classroom with this episode of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Join host Jayson Davies as he chats with Alex Thompson, an experienced occupational therapist and former teacher, who has devoted her career to blending nature with school-based OT practices. Learn how Alex empowers teachers and students by redesigning classrooms, creating sensory-friendly environments, and fostering self-regulation through the innovative use of outdoor and nature-inspired strategies. Don’t miss the chance to reimagine classroom design with nature as your guide! Listen now to learn the following objectives: Learners will recognize…the significance of collaborating with teachers and students to create learning environments (via classroom makeovers or modifications) that address the diverse sensory, emotional, and learning needs of all students. Learners will identify the role of occupational therapy in classroom design and understand how incorporating nature and holistic approaches can improve self-regulation and learning outcomes in students. Learners will associate that supporting teachers' self-regulation and wellness directly impacts the classroom atmosphere and student outcomes. Guests Bio Alex Thompson is an occupational therapist in British Columbia Canada. She is the founder of a charity that offers nature-based occupational therapy services to schools, local Parks and Recreation boards, community organizations, and private families amongst some of her clients. She has a background as an outdoor recreation educator and as an OT. 15 years ago she put together her love for nature and passion to make the outdoors accessible to all abilities.  In her work as a consultant for a variety of school districts in Canada, she has been able to bring the love and passion for nature and the outdoors to her occupational therapy practice to address referrals related to self-regulation, motor and executive function skills, mental health and trauma and even social skills. She provides school services through the RTI, response to intervention model of services.  Quotes “The OT research shows that OT is effective, but we don't have to limit ourselves to just understanding the OT research. There's so much else out there that we can bring into our practice.” -Jayson Davies, MA, OTR/L “I love that occupational therapy is one of the few professions that the ethos of who we are has to do with seeing the human being as a holistic person.”  -Alex Thomson, OTR/L “The users of the room are your space directors. They are the ones who tell you what they want. And we as OTs, with our knowledge of the neurobiology of how the body works and what's best for learning and the senses, we give ideas and choices, and then they choose what they want.”  -Alex Thomson, OTR/L "If we can see the Earth and the planet more as a person or a being rather than an object, we have more empathy and more care towards it." -Alex Thomson, OTR/L Resources 👉 Research 👉 Research Digest 👉 Membership 👉 Webinar 👉 Connectedness to Nature Research  Other Resources: 👉 University of Derby Research 👉 Our Wild Calling Book 👉 Power For All Website 👉 Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics (NMT) 👉 Nature-based  Therapy Book 👉 The Association for Experiential Education  👉 powerforallats@gmail.com   👉 Linkedin 👉 IG 👉 Facebook Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Jayson Davies     Hey  there OT friend, welcome to episode 170 of the OT school house podcast. A few weeks ago, we spoke to Angela Hanscom about the impact nature has as children's sensory systems develop. This week, we are following up on that episode with Alex Thompson, an occupational therapist from Canada who has used the evidence on using nature to guide the way she supports students and teachers using a collaborative model in the schools based in British Columbia, Alex weaves nature into classroom design in a way that's practical and makes a real difference in both students and teacher outcomes. With her background as a former teacher, Alex knows firsthand the balance and creativity needed to make classrooms functional, vibrant and engaging. After all, students spend a lot of time in their classrooms, and those classrooms can have a profound influence on students ability to learn and stay focused. So that is why Alex is here today to share how nature inspired elements can transform learning spaces, breathe life into classrooms and empower you to advocate for these changes with confidence. So get comfy and join us for what promises to be an eye opening conversation. Let's unlock the potential of the classrooms on your campus with a touch of nature's magic. Please help me in welcoming Alex Thompson to the OT schoolhouse podcast.    Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast. Your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host. Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hey, Alex, welcome to the OT school health podcast. How you doing today?    Alex Thompson     I'm doing great. Jayson, thanks for having me.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. It's a pleasure. We've had the had a chance to talk a few times. Now I'm just super excited to talk to you, because it sounds like you are doing amazing things where you're at and I'm excited to let everyone else hear what you're doing and how they can kind of use that in their school based ot practice. So yeah, excited to have you here. Why don't you start by just sharing us, sharing with us a little bit about where you fit into the role of occupational therapy right now.    Alex Thompson     Okay, yeah, so I'm gonna register and license occupational therapist in British Columbia, Canada, for those of you have been here, Vancouver is kind of close to where I am, and I guess upon graduation, I just started on this pathway of trying to bring nature into my practice. And yeah, for the last 10 years or so, I have been working in the schools as a consultant, and also a bit on the side, running our nature based occupational therapy practice in the community. And I established a charity that's how we deliver the services in the clinic and community setting. And I love going back to the schools, because I was a teacher before I was an OT, I taught kindergarten, grade one and two. And of course, after choosing OT and going back to the schools, like it just felt so at home, I felt more at home in the schools than in the hospitals and stuff like that. So yeah,    Jayson Davies     totally relate to that. Yeah, yeah. So, very cool, very cool. So now you're in you're in Canada, and so my first question has to be to talk about the difference between Canada and America when it comes occupational therapy in the schools. You know, in America, everything is very idea centric. We all revolve around IEP services, and basically, we have goals for a specific student, we have services for a specific student typically. However, I hear things that are are a little bit different in the way that ot services with within the schools work in Canada. So I'd love for you to share just a little bit about how that is a little different. You mentioned consulting. Is that kind of the primary route, or what does that look like? Yeah.    Alex Thompson     So the services are dictated, not just in like by the school district, but by the province that you're in. So I was working in the province of Alberta, for example, and that is a little bit more similar to the states, because I only had three schools that I belong to, and so I would take two days at each school, and because the week only has five days, of course, like I had, kind of had to rotate, but then those were the kids in my caseload I will get to go in The classroom and and do my treatment sessions at that time. Being a teacher, like in my background, there wasn't the push in and push out vocabulary, but like, I found it super helpful to be in the classroom, co teaching with the teacher, so without having the right to have. Terminology, I guess. Like if I had seven kids, you know, in a classroom, in a kindergarten classroom, like I would just run a center, and I would do fine motor and stuff like that, instead of pulling out seven kids, you know, for half an hour or 45 minutes. So that's like in Alberta, in BC, we don't do the direct service delivery. It is more consultative approach. But regardless of the province, the kids need to have a diagnosis, and according to the diagnosis, they fit into a category, and that category dictates how complex or simple the IEP would be. And then, of course, as OTs, you know, we're only seeing the kids that have an IEP, so very similar to the states, in that regard, the only direct service that we would do is, of course, you can't make recommendations if you haven't trialed them, and if you don't know how the kid is going to be right. So I do get that time with the kiddos to trial what I'm saying or suggesting, and if it works, then it goes as a recommendation. But in the last after COVID, I got a lot of evidence, actually, from your podcast and from the back to school conference as to how teachers were preferring that camaraderie and that co teaching and mentoring, if we could do that Response to Intervention model. And so I proposed that in one of the districts, and I was able to do that. So I did a pilot project, and it was more regarding cell regulation needs. And I will be in the schools, you know, for three months and run a program, and I could see kids through tier one approaches, so like, do Pro D for the teachers, but also going a couple or four classrooms. And then also see my outliers. I call them kiddos who you know 50% or more of the time their self regulation is get in the way of participating at school. So that project, I would say I've noticed the success in being able to have that freedom in your caseload, to look at the different tiers and to get the most bang for your buck. And that is what I've been doing. And then other districts heard about it, so, like, I kind of had to split myself now, you know, like amongst districts to help out so we can run that sort of pilot project. Yeah, wow,    Jayson Davies     that's awesome. So you're kind of doing a level one, two and three RTI program at a few different districts now, congratulations.    Alex Thompson     Thank you. Yeah, it's, I mean, you know, it's funny, right? Like we have to present that evidence and advocate for it, but I feel like it speaks for itself. Once you get it going, people can see how much more efficient we are as OTs with the little time that we have. But also, like I found that teachers feel empowered, because it's one thing to go into their class and give them a list of things to do and leave and they really never look at it again, but it's another to actually be like, No, I'm gonna be with you. Let's, let's roll this out. Let, let's connect. What did you think, how it went? And like, I have felt that is a bit more of a sustainable way to encourage change and for teachers to feel inspired, I guess, by OT, yeah, yeah, absolutely,    Jayson Davies     now really quickly, because you were a teacher beforehand. Did you have much interactions with occupational therapy practitioners as a teacher or no?    Alex Thompson     Nothing, no. And I was in an inner, inner city school in Toronto, and you know, as a newbie on the block, like you have to earn your credits right as a teacher, so you usually would get the roughest, like classroom, and yeah, I, I remember, like my kindergarten class. I mean, now I could say, you know, some of them had anger management, like OCD, DCD, you know. But at that time, as a teacher, I didn't know, and in a class of 20 like I could tell you, 14 of them had something going on. And even at that time, because of my background in Outdoor and Experiential, you know, education, and even me like I was a tough kid in school, so I could identify, you know, and so I feel like that's why I only lasted, like, a couple of years as a teacher, because I really love working with the kids who were challenging and I wanted to do more for them. And I didn't find that as a teacher, I was able to follow that. Yeah,    Jayson Davies     that's unfortunate. Yeah, you talked about the back to school conference, and I'm pretty sure you're referring to my session, where I did show some research from educators that showed that educators wanted support from OTs and they appreciated the hand on hands on support from occupational therapy practitioners coming into the classroom and then showing them how to do stuff, not just giving them a list of stuff to do. So yeah, that's awesome that you were able to kind of make that transition. And I think that that's got to really help you having that background as a teacher, because now you're supporting teachers and kind of understanding and having some empathy for what they're going through and what they do, and being able to support them, I'm sure that has come in quite a bit of handiness. So, very cool,    Alex Thompson     yeah, absolutely. Like, I really, I feel like that. Back to School conference, like the research that you presented, I literally like that was in August, you know, and one week before school started, I'm looking at all the references that you provided. I'm looking into it further. And I'm like, I'm gonna present this. Like, this is great, you know, awesome. But even to having worked in Alberta and knowing what it was like to have only three schools and to just work with teachers on a regular basis, like that was much more rewarding position for me, you know, like, two years later, getting an email from a teacher who says that she still remembers what you know we had done in the class, about how the kids held the scissors, and still remembering, you know, How to Do the developmental like readiness assessment for handwriting like that, to me, makes my job worthwhile, right? Like, if you because it kind of multiplies that ripple effect, rather than me pulling out kids one by one, and I'm the only one who knows what I'm doing, or, yeah, giving the list of stuff to do, and it just gathers dust and never gets done, right?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, so when you first started kind of in the schools, were you already incorporating nature, or did that come a little bit later?    Alex Thompson     No, I was already doing it, because, I guess I should say this, so I had a rough time in high school, like personally as a student, and I think grade 11 and 12 was when it was really tough, and I basically was labeled as a defiant student and rude, because I was very good at argumenting with adults and like putting them in their spot, and teachers didn't like that, and I found these Outward Bound program for high schoolers. So my mom basically dropped me off a summer, and I stay there, and I came back a few weeks before school started again, and in that Outward Bound program, you know, we did everything, like kayaking, horseback ride like you. You just name it. We did it. But the first week, right off the bat, one of the leaders, I remember, we were going on a hike, and he said to me, you have the courage to question why we do things. And he's like, that is called Leadership. Here is a map. You're gonna lead us on the hike we're gonna follow. And I remember as a teenager being like, what, oh, I'm a leader. Like, it was such a different perspective on what I had been called defiant, you know, and so I feel like that was the beginning of a positive kind of root, like I saw myself in a different light. And then I also learned that I was a very experiential learner, and so I started to look for those opportunities and advocating for myself in high school to have that. So that's why it became so natural when I saw kids like that. You know that maybe eating in a classroom, listening was not the thing for them. I could easily relate to them, so I was just trying to look for ways to make it very experiential. And that's where nature is such a great, you know, environment, you don't have to do much. So, yeah, yeah,    Jayson Davies     very cool. So then you started up in the schools, and you wanted to start to integrate some nature. What were some of the first things that you started to kind of, what were the easy things, I guess, what was the low hanging fruit that was just so easy to incorporate that you couldn't not incorporate, I guess,    Alex Thompson     I guess the first few things, you know, when I was working with the teachers, was like, oh, you know, can we do this lesson outside? You know? So, like doing numeracy, literacy outside, some schools had a. Backyard? Well, not a backyard, sorry, a courtyard, I should say, and we could go there others. I remember being in some kindergarten and grade one and two classes, and after lunch, like, you know, there was a lot of meltdowns and kids who wanted to go home and and I remember just telling the teachers, like, hey, you know, what if we go for a walk after, you know, we do free play, just to transition them back in. And so we will go for a walk. Some teachers that seem like dead teaching time, like they just didn't see the value. I'm just going for a walk. So, you know, I will have like, a scavenger hunt, and it was related to whatever we were learning in numeracy or literacy, you know. And I feel like those were easy wins, because even the teachers like you could tell they're breathing in the fresh air. It's a bit of a mental break, and everybody will come back in. So that was, that was, like an easy start, yeah, yeah.    Jayson Davies     And, you know, we, we often have to, I don't want to necessarily say, convince teachers, but we have to collaborate with them to help them see the value. And it sounds like for some things, you know, that's easier, and for other things, that's a little bit more difficult. Teachers, obviously, I don't want to say they want to do this, but they need to maximize the amount of time that they have. Right? Kids are only in school for a finite amount of time, and they have so many standards that they have to cover. And so when you're recommending a walk or go noodle or exercise, right, they're kind of like, well, I need to fit in my math standards, or I need to fit in my literacy standards. And so I guess the question here, and you kind of started down this route, but I'd love just to let you you talk even more. What were some of those things that you were able to do, or how did you overcome some of the the feedback or comments or questions from teachers about doing some of these things?    Alex Thompson     Yeah, so, so, like I said, so, like at first, especially with the teachers who were worried about dead time, you know, like trying to incorporate activities into that as the kids were moving so we could still complete or meet some learning outcomes. But I found and the reason why I went down researching learning more about self regulation and nature, it was because the teachers would be like, oh, you know, we've been dealing with so and so and his meltdowns, and we couldn't complete what we were supposed to in the morning, and now you want us to go for a 20 minute walk, you know? Like, how is that gonna help? Like, the overall class, like, he's still gonna have a meltdown. So this is where I started to join that self regulation piece to nature and explaining that, like, what's going on in the nervous system. And, you know, why is it that nature was helpful, but even more powerful it was to be able to hear the teachers and say to them like, you know, I was looking I was observing this morning, and it looked like after recess, it was a very stressful time for you. I could see that there was a lot in your play, you know, there was all these kids doing this and that, that it seems like that's a tough time during the day, and then they'll be like, Oh, yes, you know. And they'll open up, right? Or I had a few teachers do that, I would say, oh, you know, like, I came to observe a few of the kids, but I noticed, you know, that you're moving differently, like, Are you in pain? And they'll be like, yes. How did you know, you know. And so started to more talk to the teachers and try to, I guess, empathize and highlight their own self regulation needs. And how, by doing the going outside, or maybe by, you know, doing this bit of bringing plants in my classroom and all that, how overall, it will help the kids. But I was caring about them, because if they could be regulated, there would be so much more hope and positive outcomes for the classroom. So when I started to switch that more to them that I care about you, and what can I do to make this better? I feel like that's where I got a lot of more. Oh my gosh, please come to my classroom like, yeah, I love it, yep, yeah,    Jayson Davies     I love it, yeah. You know, we're always so focused on the kids and also our own. Personal needs, but we forget that sometimes you can help kids by helping the adults in the classroom, whether that's the teachers, the paraprofessionals, or anyone else on campus, right? Like, that's great. I I was expecting you to, like, say, after recess, you asked the teacher, how can I help the kids? But that's not where you went. You asked, How can I help you, the teacher? How can I support you? And I think that's awesome, because a lot of times when you support the teacher, you end up supporting end up supporting the kids too. So fantastic. I love that, yeah,    Alex Thompson     like, I had a very rough school, you know, it's an inner city school. A lot of itinerant workers had gone in, and they didn't really get far because, like, the school, we called it that it was on fire, you know, like, there's all these crises happening. And there was this one resource teacher, and it was really tough for me to get in there, but the counselor kind of got me in. And I noticed that she was limping. I noticed, you know, her movement was changing from the morning to after lunch. So after the thing you could tell she's like, Okay, well, what are you going to give me to do get it over with, right? And I just said to her, I'm like, you know, I want to say I really admire and appreciate how you went through the day. I could see that you were in a lot of pain, and the pain was increasing, and she stopped, and her eyes got watery, and she's like, you saw that? And I'm like, yeah. I said, like, I wonder, like, are you having, like, back pain or hip pain? And then she's like, Yes. And she started describing it, you know. And so then I said to her, I'm like, Okay, well, before we get any plants, you know, before we declutter the classroom and open up the windows. I am going to ask for some things for your station, because here in BC, like the Union for the teachers, they have a wellness program, and so you can actually have someone come and do an ergonomic assessment and and do things. So I put in there that I was wondering, you know, if we could get an ergonomic assessment for her, and that I was recommending, like, anti fatigue mats that sit to stand stool and, you know, like ergonomics for her. And I even said to her, I'm like, you know, there's a physio in town. I would recommend for you to see him. They're going to do a gait assessment. You're probably going to use some orthotics, which will be helpful for standing. So I saw her, and we were putting a proposal to change her room. Four weeks later, Jayson, I came, and the first thing I'm just coming in the classroom in the hallway, she's with a huge smile, comes to hug me, and she's like, this has changed everything for me. And she's like, please come to my classroom. What else can we do? You know? And because of her and what we did in her room, there was three other teachers that then invited me to their classroom to do like the classroom makeover, we called it in. I love that,    Jayson Davies     yeah, I love that. That's like exactly what I talk about, right? Like, help one teacher, and by helping one teacher, you're gonna end up helping so many more teachers than you ever thought you would have able to help. So awesome, yeah? So that total classroom makeover, it should have a reality show, by the way, is that part of your your RTI pilot program, yeah.    Alex Thompson     So there's different tiers to it, right? But when you get the whole combo, we call it the deluxe package, you know? And so, so what it is is I just actually, on Friday, I had a meeting with one of the schools in the district that I'm starting, so I'm going to be in the school for three months. And so how it goes is that we call it the sense of regulation, and the word sense, each letter stands for something, and that's actually an acronym that I did not come up with. There's an OT here in Vancouver, Island. Her name is Michelle riddle, and she's also very focused on nature and the holistics of how our body works with, you know, food, with the air and all of that. And so she has done research where we can link a lot of the aspects of nature and how they contribute to self regulation. So the S is for stress management, the E is for environment and emotions. The N is for nourishment and nature. S is for sleep and E is for exercise. And so we train the teachers, the kids and sometimes the parents. We provide education in all those different areas and how all of those play a role in self regulation, and clearly, like how you show up in the world. So. Basically what happens then I'm in the School for those three months, for the tier one, a lot of the staff professional development opportunities, if they want them to have like a lunch and learn or something after school or during the staff meeting. We will talk about, for example, stress management for teachers, and we give them some tips, and we do the exercises together. We also draft a goal related to cell regulation for the whole staff team, something that they're going to tackle this year, right? So doing that this three months, I am doing the different pretty opportunities for the teachers, and then at the same time, we invite two or three teachers who wanna do the classroom work. And so those three teachers, they will be the ones that can have the classroom make over. And the outliers for the tier three interventions come from those three classrooms. So what I usually recommend to the staff team when they're deciding who's going to do what I say, okay, so when you look at your school population, who are the the frequent flyers in the outlier club, right? So, and most of the time they're gonna have, like, you know, 20 of them. And I say, okay, which classroom do this 20 come from? Which three classrooms? And so they will say, Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah, Mrs. So and So, Mrs. So and so. And then I'm like, Okay, so from those four classrooms, which are the two teachers that you can see could be the most open and the most comfortable with having the OT come and collaborate with them, co teach, change the environment, all of that. So that's how we get our two classrooms. And then I usually take on the six outliers of the whole school who are the ones that are going to get the tier three services now for the classroom as part of the environment makeover, I also offer that sense of regulation, which is an education program. So the kids visit me once or twice a week for a 45 minute class on self regulation. And the kids come and I structure the environment like what we OTs, know, it should be like teachers get to see it. I have a lot of dynamic seating. I set up a lot of micro environments, you know? So there's like, a calm zone, there's a group learning zone, there's an individual learning zone, like, it's just lots of micro environments. Really quickly,    Jayson Davies     I want to pause because I want to touch on that, because, like, I know that ot practitioners are going to be listening right now and saying, like, where, where does this come from? Like, where did the budget for this come from? And so I obviously they're bringing you in for three months that is an individual, you know, contract, per se, whatever it might be. But for the extra stuff, bringing in the seating, bringing in some of the other things, are they setting aside an additional budget for that? Or how does that work    Alex Thompson     some schools do, and when they when we're talking about the referral and who wants to be a part of it, we talk about that, but some schools may not have like I'll give you an example. One middle school gave me $10,000 that was my budget, which is quite generous, actually. But at the same time, I had another Middle School that all I had was $1,500 Wow. So what I do? I literally go into addicts storage areas for the whole district. I go into the classrooms and we have swaps, you know, because I've had classrooms that the teacher order rocking chairs for the whole classrooms, or exercise ball chairs for the whole classroom. So we do trades. I'm like, Okay, well, you don't need 24 rocking chairs. So can we give you four regular chairs? And you give us, you know? So a lot of trades like that. But I also go in the attics and find a lot of stuff the school district storage areas, you'd be surprised at all the stuff I've been able to find. And we also go on Facebook. The schools have groups, and we will ask parents for things. So I don't do this anymore, because we don't have them, but in the past, like there's no way we could have bought, you know, like, 10 foot stools for a classroom. So I will ask parents to bring their phone directory books, and some of the kids we they'll help me to duct tape them, and we will use those as food stools, for example. So we just asked for the variety of things that we. Need. And I also go to the thrift stores. The thrift stores are my best friend. I'm actually always going and I have stuff in my garage. I have found new I don't know if you know the karma or stadium chairs. I don't know if you know they're used in yoga. They're usually like, $90 well, I have found two of those new ones, $5 each. So I always have those, and I keep the receipts. So when I do have a project, I just basically go to my garage and grab some of those and can give the receipt to the school. But that's where the budget comes from, and I have my own personal kit that I bring, and I literally move into the school for those three months. And that's why I asked for a space so I can demonstrate. So like in my kit, you know, I have these different kinds of timers. I have these sort of traffic light timer that when you have a lot of time left, there's green. When you only have a little bit of time, is yellow. When you only have five minutes, is red. I also have nature scenes, you know, that I can just roll out. They're printed on a piece of fabric, so I can just put them around in the room. I got Christmas lights like it's just it's a suitcase that I carry with me, you know. But the idea is that when the kids come, I structure it, you know, they come in, we they do a check in, like, how is your energy going? We can do we do it with thumbs, you know. And then we do movement and rhythmic activity to regulate them. Then we do an activity to connect with each other. Sometimes they go to centers, and all the activities that are happening are related to the topic. So like the first two weeks, we're talking about stress, and I set up these sensory motor labs, so each center has a sense, and I am asking the teacher, the SCA, so the student, education assistant that's in there to help me document the reactions. So as much as these activities look like fun, I am doing assessment too, especially of my outliers, you know, like when they're looking at the lava lamp, like, is there energy going up or is it going down? I've also created these passports for the stations so the kids themselves can tell me how, you know, how did this dice fidget help your energy? Did it go up? Did it go down? Did it stay the same? And so we're we're doing assessment, but we're also doing activities. We're regulating them. Then we have the little lesson that I do, which is quite experiential. We we may go outside for that, depending on the the classroom is, and then we come back. I always tell them to there's a pass to leave the group. You know. It could be like, tell me the high and low of today, or tell me something that stuck with you, or something that rock or, you know, like whatever it all comes from the research of the SEL signatures of practice, you know. So finish with optimism, or finished with gratitude. So that's how we end, and that's how I'm starting to document my outliers, and that's how I know, how you know, did the environment impact them? What are the things that work, even my interactions with them? What am I finding useful? My tone, my pace, like? What is it? And the teachers are seeing it, and what I have heard from them is that this is where is so important, because they're like, Oh, it was so great to see you deal with so and so when he's telling you that the game is stupid, and he throws a chair, you know, because I can see them, what I can do, Right? Like, and that is the learning that carries over. So that's what the classroom gets. So it's not only the makeover, the assessment of their outliers, but it's also this program. And this program takes place. The list amount of sessions that we could do it in is eight. The best number is 10 to 12, and that's going into the classroom. Well, they the school gives me a space, and it's my classroom, and they come for the cell regulation. Gotcha. Sometimes the school cannot give me 45 minutes, and I have to do it in 30 but the whole classroom comes in and I walk them through this. And so they learn about stress management, you know, they learn about the environment. What are the things that help you to, you know, go down, what are the things that help your energy go up, and what has been happening? Which was, to my surprise, in a couple of the schools, there was a mom that. She was driving, apparently, and like she was honking and screaming. And one of her kids said, Mom, it looks like you're stressed out. You should do the pause button with me. And he walked his mom to the breath, you know. So the mom came into the school as the principal, where did my kid learn about this pause button, breath, like, what is that? They called me to the office. I talked to the mom, and then she's like, well, I want to learn that I can get a group of parents to learn this. And so I basically partner with the counselor. So I started a book study on cell regulation, but the counselor kept it going because that's more within her wheelhouse, and I was gonna leave in three months, right? So, yeah, yeah,    Jayson Davies     that's awesome. First of all, going back a few minutes, where you where we started this, this wonderful answer was about the financial piece of it, and I just want to say kudos to you for getting a little creative. I think it's great that you have some stuff on hand, right, that you can show what works, and then the district principal might be a little more more open to getting it. Something else that you kind of alluded to, too, was there might not be funds for the OT, but the teachers might have funds. And so if you can convince the teacher what what they need, then they could be the ones to put that order in. And then from there, you can share some stuff around. Other ways that I know some OTs have done this, like really quickly, is Donors Choose. And I was just gonna say that it's like some people go on Donors Choose, and they get funded by random people. So, but yeah, go ahead.    Alex Thompson     Well. And the other thing that has happened too is every school district, and every school has this right at some point in the year, oh my gosh, the budget is closing. We got $10,000 we gotta spend it, you know? So I every time I've gone to a school, I said to him, like, you know what, when you have that time where you have to spend money, here's the list that we created as a team, and this is where you could spend your money. So they may not buy it while I'm there, but, you know, in April, when the budget closes, maybe they go on this shopping spree and they can get all of that stuff. And a lot of teachers had said, and the principals especially, like, that's really helpful, because they kind of feel bad when they just have to buy whatever, just so that they use the budget. So this is more intentional and more evidence based, like spending. Yeah, yeah.    Jayson Davies     And the key word you said, you didn't say, here's a list that I created. You said, here's a list of the team created. And so that was all created during your sessions with the teachers. And so it's a, you know, the principal gets this list, and they know it's not just coming from you, it's coming from you, but from you, but it's also coming from the teachers. They want this stuff too. So, yeah, that's really impactful. That's awesome.     Alex Thompson     Yeah, yeah. And, you know, for the the classroom, like the how the nature piece comes in, so for example, for the environment we talk about, you know, cause kind of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like, how can we get air into the classroom, fresh air? So we talk about, you know, opening the windows. You know, bringing plants like NASA has documented studies, you know, of which plants are better for filtering the air. So when COVID happened that was really popular. I had my little list of plants, you know. And then one question that the teachers will always ask is, oh, you know, who's going to take care of the plants? And I'm like, well, the kids will right, like, when we and this is something that I've learned from my indigenous colleagues, if we can see the Earth and the planet more as a person or a being rather than an object. We have more empathy and more care towards it. And if we can teach the kids to care and that there's a reciprocity between the Earth and us, they are least likely to want to dominate, to want to waste, you know, and to want to see, like the Earth, just like as this source of resources that we got to spend and use, you know, unlimitedly. So, so, yeah, so the kids, there's like, a little sign up, and there's kids who will take, you know, the snake plant for Christmas and like, and Johnny takes it for spring break, right? Like, just like they take pets. So that's how we do that with the plants. We talk about, when are the good times of the day to have the windows open and let the sun in? Of course, writing and reading should be done closer to the natural light. So that's kind of how we start to bring nature into those inside spaces. We talk about having nature scenes as part of the display in the classroom. Also, if you are the kids are coming in, you know, having. Nature scenes with nature sounds, the rhythms of those sounds regulate or heartbeat and our breathing rate and even our brain right, like the rhythm of our wave, waves in there. And so we talk about that. I show that research to the teachers so they can have that using less plastic, more natural, you know, products. So like, instead of buying, you know, a lot of plastic puzzles, like, can you buy wooden ones? We talk about snacks the schools helping them to instead of just giving, you know, what is it like those fruit gummies or granola bars, like, can you partner with farmers? And can we have fruits and vegetables for nourishment? Anyways, there's like, a list of things you know of what to use in the classroom so that you can bring the air having water available. One of my middle schools, there was a lot of Indigenous students. And, you know, they the moon and how it influences our body. It's a strong belief for them. And so after we have a full moon, our tidal waves, you know, the tide, the tides change. And so our body is 70% water. So there has to be some change in the water in our body. So our indigenous colleagues suggested, you know, maybe having, like, more nourishment for thirst. So the teacher set up like a tea, hot chocolate and water station, and the kids just help themselves as they're working. I have a grade two teacher that did that too. She felt comfortable with the kids being able to manage that and be safe, and they have been. So those are the pieces, you know, for nourishment and nature. We talk about the rhythms. I asked the teachers to notice their own rhythm. Like, when are you most alert? Some teachers is first thing in the morning. Some teachers is after lunch, right? And so can we set up the most demanding activities for the times where you're most alert, right? So, like, math shouldn't be after lunch if after lunch is the most chaotic time. So what are your natural rhythms that you can follow in your body? And this is where some teachers, you know, giving them the freedom, like, Okay, well, after lunch, you crash. You're tired. That's okay. You're human. The kids are crashing too. So why don't we book the courtyard, and that's where you can do your class. Then you know, your lesson for reading. And so the kids will go in the courtyard and they have their books and they read. So scheduling those natural rhythms, paying attention to those so those activities go accordingly. That has been something that's super helpful. And you know, having like window covers. So here we have to worry a lot about the winter, right? So sometimes the temperature in the classrooms is really cold or really warm. So using window coverings to mitigate and to control temperature a little bit better. That way, opening the windows like it said, we talk about natural sound sources in the rooms, and what is an ideal station to be there, you know, because it can be distracting. Like I had a teacher that he did a lot of his teaching from the middle of the classroom, and when I was walking around with him, I showed him that was the most echoey part of his classroom, so that was not the best space. So then, as we went around and he heard me and saw it, then we moved that, you know, he needed to be more close to one side of the room, right, and some teachers placed themselves their desk right beside the door. Well, that's very distracting, if that's where you're teaching from. So just talking about that, I had to collaborate with acoustic engineers, you know, to kind of teach me a little bit about the acoustic over room. And what can we do to address those so I could use that to explain to teachers. And funny enough, you know this teacher, the one that had the echoey part, he he called me, like, a year after, and he's like, You know what's funny is, like, I haven't had a lot of calls and, like, throat infections, right? Which is something that the research said it was an outcome. So I said, DM I can I use your name? Can I tell teachers about you? It's like, absolutely. But now, like, I even have a partnership with a speech clinic in town. She helps teachers to use their breathing, you know, to be able to speak, because they speak for a long period of time. So a lot of teachers end up having issues with their voice and their throat and a lot of infections. So yeah, like all these things have come out of it, because we're trying to tune into your your body and what it needs, and those natural rhythms, and how can you bring those into the school classroom routine?     Jayson Davies     And, yeah, yeah. I love how you have kind of paired the research in the OT world, along with the culture of the indigenous people, along with audiologists and what they're saying about echoes and room like you have gone way outside this. I don't want to say you've gone outside the scope of OT, because you haven't, but you've gone outside the research of OT, which is what I'm like, always asking people and begging people to sometimes do a little bit like there is ot research, and the OT research shows that OT is effective. But we don't have to limit ourselves to just understanding the OT research. There's so much else out there that we can bring into our practice, right? Like, especially when it comes to, like, self regulation and social emotional learning. Like you talked about a counselor earlier, and you talked about, like, the audiologist, right? Like, all of that stuff is so important, and we can learn that, and we can use it. So just kudos to you for kind of getting outside the box. I love that.    Alex Thompson     Thank you. Yeah, I find that with nature, like, personally, it was very limited, like, I mean, you and I were talking before recording, the only book that I found as an OT with ot research for nature was balance and barefoot, literally, right? And a lot of the other research, you know, it came from counseling psychology, outdoor education, like, I'm a member of the American Experiential Education Association, and that's where a lot of my research comes from, for what I do in nature, because OTs are not doing that a lot yet, you know, it's a nuisance still, yeah, but there is evidence and and the reason why I thought ot was such a good choice to be doing this work, I love that occupational therapy is one of the few professional professions that the ethos of who We are has to do with seeing the human being as a holistic person. Yep, most of their healthcare disciplines focus on one thing, right? And we divide the human being into these one layer. But I'm like, OTs, you know, we are like, Shrek. We like the whole onion. We have to look at all the layers, and I feel like that's why I love being an OT and I love using nature, because it's so fitting with the layers of what makes human beings.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. All right, as we get to the last section of our podcast today, we had a question from someone in the OT schoolhouse collaborative community, and I want to give a shout out to epiphany for this question. She asked, Has anyone helped a teacher modify or rearrange an ex a classroom for Exceptional Children related to middle school. She's leaving it. She just left an IEP, you know, a team meeting, and the parent is very critical of the room, stating that is just sterile, and she didn't know how anyone could learn in that environment. So the room is arranged based on the autism teams recommendations, and they can't put a whole lot on the walls due to quote, behaviors of students destroying things. I guess I'm looking for ways to structure the room to help make it better. So I want to give you the opportunity to answer that one, right? Like, just put yourself in the situation a middle school classroom, super sterile. You've mentioned some general ideas already on this podcast, but what are some of the first things that you would try and want to do?    Alex Thompson     Well, so this is another aspect of the project. So when I am invited to do the classroom makeover, of course, I talk to the teacher first, and I say to her, you know, what are you seeing? Are the needs? What is the room used for throughout the day? And I get a schedule, but I also have a survey that I go and I do with the students starting in the preschool class all the way to high school, and the this survey goes through the census. So I say to them, like, okay, when you look around the classroom, what is very helpful to learn, what's not helpful, you know? What do you like the best? What would you like to see here? You know? And I. Get ideas. And I go through, you know, seeing, hearing, touching, feeling like literally every sense. And we also talk about community, like, what are some things in this room that help you to make friends and to feel part of the classroom? What are some things that are not helpful? So I will do that survey with the kids who use the room that you know, is it epiphany, right? That's her name. Yeah, yep. I will do a survey. So do a survey of the staff who uses the room, and do a survey of the kids, and then you're gonna get lots of ideas. I had a middle school, the one that I mentioned before, where the principal was kind and he gave us $10,000 to use, we had a quarter, well, even a third, a little bit less than a third of the room was designed to be a space where they could be free, They said, the kids, and they didn't have to worry about damaging stuff. And so in that room, the kids asked me we had a basketball net, you know, those little ones that you can just put on. We had some bean bags. What else did they OT, we had a big exercise ball, like the kids asked me what they wanted in that room, and that was the area designed for that. Right outside of that, there was another group of kids, a lot of them were autistic. They don't like a room with the exercise ball and stuff like that, feels too much for them, and so I partner. Actually, he was my neighbor. He was a retired woodworker, but he made toys. And I just showed him this picture of a cube, like a gigantic tube. Like, it's like, maybe, I don't know, four by two the cube. And we it has like holes all around, but they're in the shape of a circle, and so the kids called it the cat house. And inside the cube, there's the one area that doesn't have a hole, where it's where we put the cushion and we had a see through, kind of like mosquito netting on and that's where the Autistics wanted freedom and nothing to worry about in the environment will go to so there was those two kind of, you know, micro environments there. Then we also had another corner that it was more for movement. So I had, you know, one of those exercise ladders. That's where there was a swing, oh, I had some dumbbells. Like, there was a few choices to use for a movement break. There was the visuals for it. And we had the visual too. Like, when you went into that side of the room, you know, first you do, like an alerting, then you do a calming and centering activity, so the kids could choose and structure their own break. And there were the materials there on the shelf. Sometimes, though, those materials were kept in a hockey bag, because if there was another teacher using that space, they could just pull that out and go and do it in the hallway. So a lot of things, you have to be flexible, right? And it sounds me with epiphanies question that that room has to have the ability to be a flexible environment, so you set up for it. But I guess in a nutshell, what I would say is the users of the room. Are your space directors. They are the ones who tell you what they want, and we, as OTs, with our knowledge of you know the neurobiology of how the body works and what's best for learning and the senses, we give ideas and choices, and then they choose what they want.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. I think we can end the podcast on that. Honestly, no, I'm just kidding. Like that is such that is such great advice. Like we are always searching for data, always right, not just us. The teachers are trying to use best practices via data. The the principals are looking at school culture and data, and we're looking at data when it comes to sensory processing and fine motor skills and all that fun stuff. And the speech therapists are doing the same, the school counselors are doing the same, but we do so much of looking for data outside that we forget to do data inside and collect the individual or collective data that's right in front of us. And so I love that. You just said, You know what? I've got the data that shows this stuff helps, but I don't know which data to necessarily look at until I understand what the students need. And that is just a great way to go about it. And you said, you do it from like the whole school, right? But you could do this. One classroom. You could do it for a sub classroom, a group in the classroom. Absolutely, that's fantastic.     Alex Thompson     And that's how the classroom makeover goes. Like, it's not me saying, Oh, and you need these curtains and you need like, no, no, it's the kids. And the funny thing, you know, in that middle school I brought I have a in the survey, there's these pictures of all these chairs. Now that I had a budget, I could give them the choices that we could afford, and the kids pick the ones. And we talked about what each of those chairs, what the function was for their body, through their senses. And I said to them, like, I build up the enthusiasm, like, okay, guys like the chairs are gonna arrive in two weeks. I'm gonna come in my truck and we're gonna open them. Can you guys help me? So I had the whole class come down. 14 kids came to help me unload the stuff from the truck. We had carts and everything. As we are opening and unwrapping, we're talking about how, you know, chairs are tools, and chairs help us to modify how our energy is going. And what does it look like? What does it sound like? What does it feel like when you're ready to learn and when you use the chair? And so I said, Okay, so we only have three Yogi bowls, the bean bag chairs that I suggest, because the yogi bowls have the air beads that can modify so they feel a little bit more like encompassing of the human being. They're very expensive, but we only had three of them, and there's 14 kids, and they all like it, so we came up with a system for them to sign up. And then I said, tools are very effective when they're used to help us learn. If they're being flung around, thrown around, they're not safe. And so I said, you know, Mrs. Mr. So and So gave us this money, and I spent all this money, and I'm gonna trust you with all these treasures. So show me that I can trust you if I see them thrown, pick, you know, destroy. That tells me that these are not you. These classes not ready for them. And I come and I'm going to pick them up. So the teacher and the SCA rolled out, and one of the Fridays, the chairs got flung around, thrown around. They were wrestling with them, and one of my autistic kids, he said, We need to call Mrs. T the chairs were not used as tools. And the teacher called me, and I came back, we had a classroom meeting, and I said, Hey guys, what happened? And they were explaining. And I said, So what do you think? And a few of the kids were like, Yeah, you said that we're not supposed to use the chairs like that. I'm like, That's right. So what? What should happen? And they're like, you're gonna take them like I will. And are you taking them forever? I'm like, No, we're gonna we're gonna have a pause and a reset. I'm gonna take them away, and you guys can call me and you can tell me when you're ready to try again, and we will. So everybody pick chairs, and they load them in my truck, and I took them away, and a month later, I came back and they try them again. To this day, the one kid that I was saying, yeah, he, you know, he's the one that called he would still, if I saw him in the hallway, he'll still tell me they're using the chairs, Mrs. T You know, like, yeah, which is great, because you're teaching them self management and self evaluation, right? Like, are we using things as we are supposed to, are they helping? Are they not? And that self awareness helps with interoception, right? Like, so those are the bonuses of that, too, that you're teaching so much. It's not just the chair and how to use it.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. I love everything that we talked about. Like, we going into this podcast, right? I really assumed that it was going to be a lot about sensory in nature, and we've touched on those we have, but we've also touched on so many other aspects of occupational therapy. We've touched on behavior, we've touched on social, emotional we've touched on social, social interactions, right? We've touched on so many pieces, and all of that has kind of been combined, and it's all happening in like, this democratic way, per se, like within the student. I love that it is not you really saying anything here in this program. It is the students that are providing the information, and you're helping to interpret that information to help the teachers. I mean, that's just just fantastic. I love it. We're going to have to move on today. But before we do, I want to give you the opportunity to kind of share a little bit a about your nonprofit, which we didn't have as much time as I would have liked. Maybe we'll have to do another day to talk more about that, but but share just a little bit about what that is, how it kind of aligns. Aligns with everything you're doing, and then, and then share where people can go to learn more about you and what you're doing.    Alex Thompson     Yeah, so the the charity that we establish here in Canada is called Power for All. And I actually started that charity before I became an OT because I wanted the outdoor adventures to be accessible to all abilities. I myself, you know, I'm a neuro divergent learner, and I also have my invisible disabilities, and so it was important for me to figure out a way that people could access the outdoors, even if you couldn't move or, you know, if you have pain and things like that. So that's how it started. And because of wanting to create devices, I had ideas of devices that could be used to help to compensate for certain abilities. I was like, what do you need to do to create these devices? And that's how I came across. OT and so basically, married with a mortgage, left my job, and went back to school, got another, you know, undergrad that could help me to get into OT, and that's why I became an OT. So Power for All we have, you know, biking, climbing, paddling, we do parkour like there's a ton of different outdoor adventure activities that we use, and that is how we deliver occupational therapy services in the community. I wanted it to be a charity, a not for profit, because a lot of our fundraising efforts are for people who can't afford the services they can still come in and enjoy, you know, ot if they need it. And the referrals come from partner community service organizations, the school districts, so that we can really target the families that need it. And yeah, like, it's funny enough, this is going to age me, but yeah, we're going into our 16th year as a charity, and now we do, at first it was just summers. That's why I work for the schools, right? So we have the summers off, but in the last three years, we have been doing it all year long. So that's why I kind of have to spread my time and, you know, we contract other OTs physios. We're looking for physios. We're looking for species counselors to contract so we can offer that holistic perspective. We already have partnerships, like with clinics, you know, like a naturopathic clinic, audiologist, different things, because the kids come to us for cell regulation, but sometimes, you know, I need help, because I see that maybe there's some undiagnosed pain or there's undiagnosed deficiencies. And I had one of my kids come for cell regulation, you know, for two years, and it ended up being that he had an undiagnosed ulcer at the mouth of his stomach, and he was nine years old, and that's why he was having meltdowns. Wow. So again, right? Like the self regulation piece, when it's holistic, it you can you go into all these different areas, and that's why we have partnerships with a lot of disciplines so that we can serve our families better. So, yeah, Power for All ATS, so adventures, therapy, society, that's what the  ats.com , that's where our website is. That's where you can connect. We're in Lincoln. Instagram, Facebook, absolutely.    Jayson Davies     Thank you, Alex, and we'll link to all that also really quickly. I just found out, right before we started this podcast episode, Alex shared with me this link, and we'll drop it in the show notes as well. But it is like a research library dedicated to basically nature based everything, therapy and all that good stuff, and that is at children and nature.org/research , library, research dash library, again, we'll put the link in the show notes. But Alex, thank you so much for sharing all the resources, all the great again. Everything that you said was about we, not me. I love that. Everything that you said was about doing the best for the children, even if it's difficult, like seeking out an audiologist or something like that. So you are obviously doing amazing things, helping everyone in your area. I love that, and now you're sharing that news with the entire world, which is fantastic. So thank you so much, Alex. We really appreciate it.    Alex Thompson     Thanks, Jayson, it's been a pleasure, until next time, I guess.     Jayson Davies     Next time, thank you. Bye. And with that, we wrap up this episode. Thank you so much for joining Alex and I on this enlightening episode of the OT school house podcast. Alex is doing such amazing things up in British Columbia, and I want to extend a big thank you to her as well for sharing her innovative approach to integrating nature into. Classroom design. We hope this episode has sparked new ideas and encourage you to consider how nature can play a role in enhancing learning spaces inside of the classrooms that you support and also the students that you serve, as you reflect on what you've heard today, I invite you to join our community of school based ot practitioners inside the OT schoolhouse collaborative by visiting ot  schoolhouse.com/collab , you can earn a certificate of completion for engaging in this very episode, as well as others. You'll also be able to dive deeper into topics just like this and others and gain additional support in your practice. In the collaborative, we provide mentorship, ongoing support, and, of course, professional development courses. Thank you for listening. And here's to incorporating the tranquility and resilience of nature in to your daily practices. Until next time, take care and keep making a difference.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succee Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! 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Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 169 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Do you ever feel like daily notes are just another task on your never-ending to-do list? In this episode, we’re diving into the world of note writing in school-based OT with Jason Gonzalez, OTR/L, co-founder of Double Time Docs. We’ll unpack the purpose of documentation, discuss strategies to make it more efficient and explore how technology can simplify your workflow. Whether you're a seasoned OT or new to school-based practice, this conversation will help you streamline your notes and spend more time doing what you love—helping students thrive! Listen now to learn the following objectives: Learners will identify the essential components of effective school-based OT documentation and its role in student progress.
Learners will understand common challenges in note writing and how to streamline documentation without sacrificing quality.
Learners will apply strategies for efficient documentation, including using digital tools like Double Time Docs to track progress and inform interventions. Guests Bio Jason Gonzalez, OTR/L graduated from The Ohio State University in 2001 and has worked in pediatrics ever since. He specializes in evaluations and documentation with experience across multiple school districts nationwide. In 2017, he co-founded Double Time Docs, a platform designed to streamline occupational therapy evaluations. Most recently, he launched a new note-taking software to help school-based OTs simplify daily documentation and track student progress more efficiently. Quotes “It's considered best stand, best practice if you keep daily notes on your sessions, and to keep track of data, see how the kids are progressing or regressing, see what you need to change for the next, upcoming IEPs or how to take that data and do your progress reports, which is are required. Pretty much every school district I've worked in requires at least a progress note. Most of them require daily notes.”    -Jason Gonzalez, OTR/L  “Graphs really speak well to parents and others on the IEP team. So if you've got a graph that shows goal number 1, writing out the student's name, or whether it's, attending to a specific task for five minutes… all of that can be put onto a graph, and it speaks a lot.” -Jayson Davies, M.A, OTR/L When you have high caseloads, it's hard to memorize everybody's goals. It's hard to carry around, like, 15 binders, especially if you go to different schools…So, it's a good way to keep track instead of trying to memorize everything.  -Jason Gonzalez, OTR/L Resources 👉Double Time Docs Website:   DoubleTimeDocs.com This is where listeners can go to learn more about Double Time Docs and their services for evaluations and daily session notes. Jason's Email for Double Time Docs: jason@doubletimedocs.com Jason Gonzalez provided his email for any questions related to Double Time Docs. Discount Code for Double Time Docs: OTSH20 This code grants users 20% off their first charge at Double Time Docs. Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript.   Jayson Davies     Hey, OTPs, welcome to episode 169, of the OT school house podcast today. We're talking about daily notes. You know, those short notes that you are always on top of and never behind on right? Yeah, Me, neither. It's always hard to keep on track with daily notes when a, you aren't sure exactly what to write in them. B, no one gives you a deadline to actually complete them or C, you have no idea who, if anyone actually is going to read them. We all know that we have to get them done eventually, but they always feel like unnecessary busy work, so we put them off until the end of the day, maybe till the end of the week, and then, of course, to Saturday night while watching Netflix. Shout out to night agent my recent watch. But that should not be the norm. Daily notes should not be this difficult. That's why today we're diving deep into the heart of this pressing issue with someone who despises daily notes so much that he decided to find a more efficient way to get them done before the end of the day. Jason Gonzalez is an independent ot contractor with schools and the co founder of double time docs. Way back in episode 14, Jason joined us to talk evaluation writing and how to make that more efficient. So it's only fitting that he is returning today to share the secrets behind efficient and effective note writing, ensuring that your documentation process is set up to keep your weekends free from daily notes. So buckle up and get ready, because we're about to turn the dread of documentation into a structured, manageable and even empowering part of your ot practice. Let's dive in.    Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jason Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Jason, welcome back to the OT school house podcast. It's been a minute since you were on, I believe it was episode 14 that you came on and talked about evaluations. But today we are here to talk about note writing. How you doing today?    Jason Gonzalez     Not bad. How about yourself? Thanks for having me again.     Jayson Davies     Of course. Always great to have you. For everyone listening, Jayson and I text, like, every three months, I'll just get a random text from him, like, Hey, what's up with the Lakers? Or hey, let's start a new podcast, or something like that. And yeah, so we talked, so this is gonna be a fun episode. Him and I are pretty familiar with one another, but I never give you a second, just in person. We have never met in person. Are you going to Philadelphia? Possibly, all right, we will all see Jason in Philadelphia.    Jason Gonzalez     Yeah I'll see you. So yes, I will be in Philadelphia.     Jayson Davies     All right, we we heard it from him on this podcast. We can hold him accountable now. Jason Gonzalez will be in Philadelphia for a OTA. I will be in Philadelphia for a OTA as well. But Jayson, share with everyone a little bit about yourself. How do you fit into the world of school based occupational therapy?    Jason Gonzalez     Well, I graduated in 2001 from The Ohio State University go Bucha, I guess, and then pretty much started from there, went straight into pediatrics at a after a short stint in Psych in Chicago, but I've been in schools in hundreds of school districts, from like New York to Hawaii to San Diego to San Francisco to Jersey to Massachusetts. So I've been all over the place and worked in lots of school districts. So.     Jayson Davies     I didn't realize it was that many. It is hundreds and exaggeration?    Jason Gonzalez     Exaggeration. It's only been three, no, I'm just joking. It's been like, probably 30 or 40. I also just evaluation. So I in in New Jersey. I do I I've been in like, almost, uh, no, 20 school districts just in New Jersey, just doing evaluations. So I'm independent contractor.     Jayson Davies     Okay, as an independent contractor, meaning that, do you contract yourself with a third party that contracts you into the schools, or are you contracting yourself directly with the schools?    Jason Gonzalez     third party. Sooner or later, I would like to do that. Skip the middle man. Hopefully my companies don't hear me say that, but it would, yeah, that would be my next step. Hopefully, then I can kind of wean myself out and hire somebody. But anyway, that's a whole different conversation, I guess.     Jayson Davies     Yeah,yeah. In fact, we have an entire podcast about that, actually, a few episodes ago, not too long ago, so I'll to follow that one to you. But anyways, today's episode is all about note writing, and you are one of the founders of double time docs, and you recently incorporated note writing into double time docs, I believe. So that's kind of why we got you on here to talk a little bit about the why, the how, the purpose of note writing, and we'll talk. A little bit about how you've ingrained that into double time docs, but let's talk about note writing. You ready? I'm ready. All right, let's do it. So I guess the first question is, what is the purpose of note writing in school based ot from your perspective, why do we write notes? And feel free to go any which way with that.     Jason Gonzalez     Well, I mean, I guess it's considered best practice is to keep daily notes on your sessions and to, you know, keep track of data, see how the kids are progressing or regressing, see what you need to change for the next upcoming IEPs, or how to take that data and do your progress reports, which is are required. Pretty much every school district I've worked in requires at least a progress note. Most of them require daily notes. Nobody really collected them, nor did I actually really read anybody else's daily notes. But it's good for your own self, especially if you're addressing daily notes, to address goals, because goals can be like, like, kind of like, kind of, some of the children can be like, left, fall through the cracks, and then when you go to a meeting, you're like, oh, shoot, I was supposed to be working on shoe tying for three months. So it's, you know, it's good to keep track. I mean, when you have high case loads, it's hard to memorize everybody's goals. It's hard to carry around like, 15 binders, especially if you go to different schools, and it's just like, flipping through pages and stuff like that, and being like, Oh, this kid has eight objectives and three goals or something. So it's just, you know, a good way to keep track, instead of trying to memorize everything.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, and as you mentioned, you've been to a lot of different states. You've practiced in a lot of different states, a lot of different districts. Have you seen any difference as you've gone from, I mean, all the way from New Jersey to Hawaii and anywhere in between. Has there been a difference? Has anyone given you instruction on to write a note, or has it always just kind of been the way you write a note, is the way you write a note?    Jason Gonzalez     I would say the latter. It's kind of like, you know, it I started back in 2001 so the mentorship actually really wasn't there. We didn't really have all the resources online. So it was like looking through paper files and seeing, like, what did other people do? We're getting, like, their files from from the previous therapist, and looking and seeing what they did. So it's almost kind of like the blinding the blind and and whatever I say, even with the evaluations, is like, I feel bad for the people who had me when I first started, because I was terrible at both daily notes writing evals, terrible therapists. But, you know, we all kind of start there at some point. You got to start somewhere, and then, as you you know, travel along, talk to other therapists, people. And you know, I'm glad that the mentorship I feel like has improved since 2001 you know, a lot more. Even the travel companies I've worked for, they do provide a lot more people available to answer questions, help you guide through. Because my first job, I had the physical therapist tell me what to do, yeah, and the principal, I actually had no idea what I who I was, or what an occupational therapist was, so, so hidden island at the same time, which is good.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. I mean, I still think that some OTs still feel that exact same way, right? 20 years later, 25 years later, we're still feeling pretty similar to that. Some of us, I think it has gotten a lot better in a lot of places, though, you mentioned, kind of like the blind, leading the blind, right, learning from the the past, person who probably learned from the person before then that learned kind of from the person before them. A lot has changed in the 13 years now that I've been in in OT and you've been in for almost double that, and wow, when you first started real bad, sorry, sorry, Jason had to do it. You still look young. You still look great, Jason, just so, you know. But lighting, yeah, you know, things have changed, right? A lot of stuff has gone digital now for me, when I first started, and tell me if this sounds similar, I think the first time that I was doing session notes. We had a calendar for each month that just had a 31 boxes on it, and we ticked off the day that we saw that student, or maybe we put the number of minutes in that little, tiny box, 30 minutes, or something like that. And then we had another paper that had like five boxes on it, one for each day of the week, or one for each session, for five sessions, and we would just write a little narrative in there. There might have been a few check boxes there as well, like worked on fine motor, or whatever it was. Is that kind of where you started? Or what would you say it looked like?    Jason Gonzalez     Pretty much, very similar. And it's kind of hard, because I think sometimes some school districts have that Medicaid billing and stuff like that. So a lot of people use that as their daily note, which is, I guess, fine, is they do have those comment boxes so you can kind of write, but a lot, from my experience of doing the Medicaid billing was that they didn't actually show what goals you were working on. It was just more like the. General descriptives of like, checking off a fine motor self care or whatever. And I think it got a little bit more, you know, more had more specifics on it, but and a comment box and stuff. So it was just more like, yeah, for the Medicaid billing, and a lot of people use it for attendance. So from my experience in talking to a bunch of therapists, and I did a survey a long time ago, where I surveyed like 60 therapists or something, and they talked about how a lot of people use the Medicaid billing then they also write in their binders of like, what the session did. And then, if you're working for a contract company, you kind of have to do your daily logs for that. So you're kind of doing like three different documentation that kind of a piecemeal everything together, like your company wants to know you're at work and which kids they can bill for. Then Medicaid billing is like doing the same thing, but it's a different type of billing. And then your daily none of the other two billings or documentation actually address goals, and so you have to keep track of your data on goals, so you have another form of documentation. So it's like three things that aren't necessarily super time consuming, but if you have 50 100 kids on your caseload, like some CODAs do, then that's a lot of time you're spending.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It all adds up and and I hadn't thought about that like I know for me, my process was I had basically put every student's goals for that day onto a paper that I could easily print out. And so like the paper just said, you know, 830 Jason Gonzalez, and then it had Jason Gonzalez's goals listed out, and then nine o'clock, had the nine o'clock goals ran out, and I would print that out each morning so that I could keep track of goals on that paper. But then sometimes that data would get turned into my my note. But oftentimes it was just kind of a separate thing, and I would save that paper in case I ever needed to reference back to it. So like every day, I was printing out two pages of paper with goals on it and and I literally just kind of, I don't even know where I saved it, but yeah, I would keep those on file. I couldn't really save it in any one student's file because it had multiple students goals on and so I would have to transition it over to an individual data sheet for that student, but I would kind of keep it as reference at least until I did complete my notes. So yeah, I know we all do it a little bit differently, which is nice, because it's like you said, no one really talked about this before, and I think people are talking about it now. And so maybe we can kind of come up with a standardized way to do these notes to help everyone involved. Let's talk about your goal writing, or not your goal writing. Let's talk about kind of what you have come to today. Obviously, we all learn about writing SOAP Notes back in school, right? Talking about subjective, objective assessment and plan. Do you write a full on soap note? Do you just write to the goals? Do you write more or less? What do your notes look like today if you're seeing a student for a session?    Jason Gonzalez     Well, the last time I wrote a soap note was probably in college, but, I mean, I did write them in clinic based like when I was in a private clinic, I did write so there, but for school based, I would just write for the most part, like, just like the things that stuck out, like, you know, and then what I tell some people, or when we talk about daily notes and stuff like that, is like, who's the daily note for? Is it for? I mean, most likely the parents aren't reading it. It's usually kind of like for you, if you're transitioning the student to another therapist or something, and they're reading it. So I don't like, right? You know, I write the what the kid actually did, and it doesn't matter if he wrote, drew a picture of Batman or did a holiday card or something like that. I mean, I guess you can say that, but it like, you know, it would be like he wrote two sentences and needed verbal prompts or highlighted lines to, you know, adjust spacing or line orientation, or write that he was able to write 46 of the 52 letters of the alphabet when copying from Farsight or something like that. So mostly just the facts, and if he has a behavior that sticks out, then I would write, you know, Jayson had a full on tantrum when I took the squish and mellow from him when he was transitioning. And so, or I can write that Jayson transitioned great when he held the squishy mellow for five minutes before transitioning back to the classroom. So it was just like the thing, the strategies that worked, the strategies that didn't, or, you know, he was able to attend if your goal, it depends on what the goal is, too. So if he was able to, if you have an attention, you know, five minutes on a tabletop activity or something, then you know, I can make note that, you know, Jayson was able to complete, you know, writing activity and attended for seven minutes, uh, independently, or something. So just like, pretty much the facts and like.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, it sounds, it sounds like, to me, that you're basically keeping in mind what the goal is in writing to the goal. If there's something else that stands out. Of importance, throw that in there, but primarily writing to the goal.     Jason Gonzalez     Yeah. Or if I, you know, if we give the teacher, like a move and stick cushion, or, you know, consulted with the teacher, if this consult, consultation is not part of his IEP, then I can just write, you know, when I dropped Jayson off, I told him that I discussed with the teacher that he transitions well, if he has a squish and mellow squeeze or something for three minutes prior to going into math or something. But just like those notes that I did talk to the teacher at some point or I gave him this materials also to help me remember that I gave out like 15 pencil grips and they were all to one teacher, and I don't know why she keeps losing him. So.    Jayson Davies     All right, all right, Jason, I feel like, I feel like I know you well enough that I can say I think you basically just pointed out three of the four. So No, asked you do some of some subjective, you like, you know, yeah, stand out. You'll do some subjective. You're doing objective as far as, like, how many letters, or, you know, time spent on an activity, the assessment piece, maybe you're getting in there. I think the only one that we didn't touch on right there was, was the planning aspect, like planning about how you move forward and, and that's something that I didn't start doing until a little bit later in my career. In my career, because I found that it actually helped me with next week's session planning. But yeah, so it sounds like you're doing a shortened, modified version of an SOA, we'll call it notes.     Jason Gonzalez     Okay, all right, I'm much better than I thought I was, apparently three quarters better than I thought I was.    Jayson Davies     Yes, yeah. So, yeah. So, so you're kind of speaking to the goals, but when things stand out, you're also kind of putting those in there. And that sounds similar to what I've done, like I was mentioning, I have started to, kind of, or I did start a while ago, starting to, like, put that plan in there, because I did find that it could help me with session planning for following sessions, right? Like, I could always look back at my note and say, oh yeah. Last week, when I was in the moment with a student, I thought about next week's session, what I could do based upon what I was seeing. It was so much easier for me to look at that note and say, oh yeah. Last week, I wanted to, like, I literally told myself, let's play operation next week so we can work on some dexterity skills. Otherwise, you know, it's so hard to treatment plan when you're sitting there trying to treatment plan for for 30 kids, but when you're trying to treatment plan for one kid and you're thinking about that kid in the moment, it's a lot easier. So that's kind of why, why I was doing that. The other topic that you hit on was about the audience. Who is the audience for your note? And so I kind of want to go a little bit deeper into that, like, Who do you consider to be the various audiences? And if you want to, kind of, you can even kind of rank them from most important to maybe not least important, but at least likely to read your note.    Jason Gonzalez     Oh, okay. I mean, I guess I would be the most important, or the therapist. And then I think, you know, if you're transitioning, if a kid's going from, like, elementary school to middle school, like the upcoming therapist, or if you're changing schools, or whatever, the next therapist that's providing services, and then maybe the parents, because sometimes, I mean, I've had lots of parents ask for daily notes, or, like, communication logs, because, and then, instead of doing a whole communication log, and that's just another type of documentation, so sometimes I would just send them to daily notes, and then um administration, if necessary, um, which, for me, really happens. And I think we mentioned about like being asked to provide notes. I have never, in my 20 some odd years of practice, had been asked to provide notes. But, I mean, I guess that, because it doesn't really go anywhere else. Yeah, nobody else has really asked for it.    Jayson Davies     The only other one that I could think of would be like Medicaid, but, oh yeah, so sometimes that's separate for Yeah, it depends, right? Like, it depends if you're if it's combined or not. But even that is so rare. I think in my career, I've had maybe three parents, and I live in Southern California, which is known for being litigious. And I haven't always worked in a litigious district, but two of the three that I have worked in were and it was pretty rare for the advocate or the parent or the lawyer to ask to see our notes. It just didn't happen. When they did happen, it scared the crap out of me, especially the first time, right? But nothing really came of it. Like they asked for my notes, I gave it to them, nothing came of it. I'm sure there's someone listening out there right now who has gone through this, and something may have come through it. Come of it, right? If that's you, please reach out to me. I would love to, you know, talk about it, but yeah, like a lot of times, we are writing for ourselves, like you said, or maybe the OT I would often tell people, um. People coming into school based OT, other ot practitioners, like, right, as though you're an OT who just got this student, like, what you're talking about, right? The kid who's transitioning into middle school, they don't know the student coming to them, but they're probably going to review a few notes to kind of better understand that kid. So right, as though you know you're going to have to read these notes later without any concept of this child. But yeah, I think that basically, kind of is the hierarchy first and foremost. I think there really are for us. And then you kind of go down from there as to who they might potentially be for and be read by.    Jason Gonzalez     Yeah, and nobody writes Medicaid billing, you know? I mean, like, if people are writing their notes and Medicaid billing. I don't even know how you can actually give that to somebody else, but when they transition to school, I mean, I'm sure there's a way, if you go into the program, but I mean, most of those things are, you know, they're pretty big also.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, I think it also depends, because I think some people are using their daily session, note, copy and pasting that into the Medicaid billing program. And I do know that one of the districts I worked at that was basically what we were asked to do, was to put them into Medicaid billing and then if a parent requested, the district could easily go onto the Medicaid billing platform and just hit print, and it would print out my notes that they could hand over to whoever they needed to hand over to. So.    Jason Gonzalez     but do all students get Medicaid billing? Do all students get Medicaid billing?    Jayson Davies     No, not all students do Medicaid billing, but things can be backdated, and so we would just bill for every single student the same way through Medicaid, whether or not they they receive Medicaid or not. And so we would basically just put 100% of our notes in there, even if only 50% of the kids had Medicaid, and we got reimbursed for Medicaid. So yeah, that's how it worked for us. All right, aside from notes, is there anything else that you're adding to this we talked about, like, obviously adding the date, but is there anything else that you're kind of adding, any other documentation, data that you're kind of adding to the note?     Jason Gonzalez     Well, I guess time, like 30 minutes, 20 minutes, 45 or whatever type of session, group, integrative individual, or if, like, student is absent, therapist is absent, it's just, yeah, keeping the track. Because I know, like, the current district I work in, you know, we've had a lot of overturned in therapists, so there's a lot of missed sessions. And so it's like, just keeping track of, you know, if there's any makeups to make up. And, yeah, you know, obviously, I mean, some school districts, you know, if students absent, you have to make it up. So it's just identifying all those things to get the right numbers, just in case it does become litigious or whatever. And then you need to keep track of all the minutes. And actually, I think on Facebook, I think you just tagged me on somebody about their administration is trying to keep track of minutes of and how they're doing that. So, yeah, so that would definitely be in my note is to you know, how much time he was there, or the student, what type of group it was, because, you know, if it's specified in the IEP that they're supposed to be seen in a group or an individual, sometimes they got a mixture of both, or a consultation. So just identifying what kind of service is done, name, obviously, but it's that's probably the most important things that I would include in The Daily Note.    Jayson Davies     Awesome, awesome. Now, since you have been, you know, a world traveler. OT, I guess, maybe not real, but us traveled. OT, every state's obviously different. Every district is different. So for an OT practitioner who's maybe starting at a brand new school, brand new district, or maybe they've been there for 10 years, and they just never searched this out, What should these ot practitioners kind of consider or where the where should they go to kind of learn what is required for their district, for note taking?    Jason Gonzalez     Oh, I would ask administration, but, I mean, half the time they don't even know, but so it's, you know, go with your state requirements for, I mean, if you Google, just like New Jersey, school based occupational therapy required to take daily notes. Pretty much every state says yes or whatever, but it's, you know, chat, G, P, T, I don't know if that's, uh, how accurate that is, but I mean, everything is like says best practice or standard practice is to take daily notes, whether or not you're in a clinic or school based. I mean, I guess I wouldn't see why you wouldn't. Other than that, it's time consuming, but you're making a record of what they're doing. You're making a record that you actually saw the person, because even you have teachers and other administrators, mean, like, Hey, you never came. So it's just like a paper trail of. You actually doing your job. And so you know you're kind of solidifying your position, and you know that you're actually doing your job and keeping track of, like, what people said, what you've given out, what strategies you tried. Because you know, if you get a new kid and you have no idea that they've been working on shoelace tying for 15 years, and you're like, oh, he doesn't tie shoes. I'm going to go work on this now. But nobody knows that he, he got exited from shoelace tying when he was in fifth grade, and now you can pick it up again in sixth grade. So it's, it's just, it kind of benefits everyone, including yourself, because, you know, it's more of a protection too.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And right now we're actually working on something at the OT school house. We used to have a map that kind of guided people to the and we still technically have it, but it needs to be updated, and we're working on updating it is this map that guides people to their state school based ot guidelines. And as you mentioned, I kind of like, not every state has these guidelines, but that is definitely one place that I would look to for looking for any documentation guidelines. The other place, if you don't want to use chat GPT because you don't trust it, which I for this, I win it either. But just go to your state licensure website, and it should be in your licensure, like what is required, things like, can you evaluate a student without a doctor's order that would be in your license, your practice act for your state. Things like, what you need to document should be in your practice act for the state as well. So yeah, that's one place you can go. What's also nice about that, what I found is that you can use that to whether it's regarding documentation or otherwise, but as an OT, you have to uphold those practices. And so that is something that you can also show your administrators. Like, look, my you can go to your administrator and say, Look, my license, my body of governing, whatever requires me to do this documentation. Therefore, I need to do this documentation despite what you want, or say that could potentially help you in, like, showing them like part of your workload. They might not see documentation as part of your workload, but you can show them look. My licensure says I need to do this. And so you need to factor some time in for that, so.    Jason Gonzalez     and workload is such. I mean, you talk about workload a lot, or I do post about, I think a post about, right, I am, but it is. I mean, it's a big, it's a big difference, like, if you have 50 kids, I mean, sometimes daily notes only takes a minute and a half, two minutes. I mean, if you're doing on a program, it might take a little three minutes, because you have to click so many buttons to get to your student. But it's, it's, you know, three minutes. If you see a kid once a week, that's 50 kids, that's 150 minutes. It's, uh, it's almost three hours, two and a half hours that, you know, if you have 50 kids, how do you squeeze in 50, another 150 minutes of the daily documentation? So a lot of people do it at home, and, you know, not paid time off. A lot of people just don't do it, or wait until the end of the week when it's super busy, or wait until the end of the month, and then you have 450, minutes of of daily notes to do, and then you're like, I don't remember what Tommy did on Tuesday the third so I mean it, yeah, it's, it's, it's just, it's extra work, but it's a kind of a necessity to do it.     Jayson Davies     Sorry, Jason, Tuesday was actually the fifth of the month, so you are totally up on it. No, I'm just kidding.    Jason Gonzalez     I'm all out of whack. It's the daily documentation, so I can probably.    Jayson Davies     That's how it feels, right? Like that is literally how it feels when you're trying to document from two weeks ago, even if you have some shorthand notes that you took during the session and but you're trying to put together a cohesive, maybe not even cohesive, but at least, like, understandable note, doing it two weeks later. It's hard.    Jason Gonzalez     Yeah. Well, it's the same thing with evals. Like, if you know, I test two, sometimes three kids a day, and then if I don't write the report on Monday, and then I test two kids again, that's five reports. If I don't write the reports because I'm busy eating lunch or something, then I gotta go do it just adds up, and then it Wait, it's, it's in the even if you take notes like you said, it's still in the back of your mind of like, okay, I did this with that kid. I know I sometimes your notes are, you know, chicken scratch, and you'll be like, does that say left or right or something? It's just like it, regardless if you think you took good enough notes, it's, it's still somewhere in the back of your mind, until you actually put it somewhere where you don't actually have to think about it anymore.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, well, I think we're coming kind of the close of this podcast episode, but there's two more things we want to do this. First one here is a rapid response. We haven't I don't think we've ever done this on the podcast, but I want your quickest take, like, 15 seconds on these. And I haven't shared these with you yet for everyone listening. So these are going to be the first time. Am. Most of them are ot related. Some of them aren't. But let's go into it rapid response, completing notes during a session or completing them after a session.    Jason Gonzalez     I say at the end of the the five minutes of a session. So while they're usually I reward a kid for doing like they can draw or pick like a little activity. Actually, from, I supervise a bunch of CODAs, and it appears like everybody does that, like, you know, you do your work, you can play this game. So while they're playing that game, I will do a note at that time, just because, until it doesn't build out in the long run.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that way you're not doing it while watching Netflix at 8pm um, how do you document, how do you document missed sessions?    Jason Gonzalez     Oh, I just, well, I have my own program, but it's, I just, you know, click soon and absent.    Jayson Davies     Okay, and then what do you do with that data? Do you do you show it to anyone? Does anyone ever ask for it?    Jason Gonzalez     Never. I mean, maybe I shouldn't say never, because then nobody will do it. But it's, I've never really been asked to show if it's students absent. I mean, that's easy to access from administer, like the attendance people, if they need proof that student was absent. I mean, sometimes I would write if students unavailable, like a student was at assembly or whatever. And then also, on those days, I don't know if this is what you're supposed to do, but I would go to the assembly with them. And then, you know, watch, you know, how they're tolerating the noise, if they're seeing still, like, just, you know, get different type of atmosphere, different type of note, because that might come up later in IEP meeting, be like, Hey, Johnny can't sit in assemblies. Like, oh, he never told me that, but if you go with him occasionally, you can see him in a different setting.    Jayson Davies     All right. Next one speech to text to write notes.    Jason Gonzalez     I never used it. It's my voice sounds funny. I don't pronounce things correctly, so it might just look funny to me. I type much faster. Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I've used speech to text with other kids, and maybe it's better nowadays, but when using, like, Dragon or whatever, it's a lot of proofreading. And, you know, on a side note, my mom, who was fresh off the boat, well, actually, she's not. She moved in 72 but she's from the Philippines, and she had to trans. She's a doctor, so she had to transition in the last couple of years of her practicing to a speech to text and her accent threw everything off. And I know they learn and stuff like that, but she had such a hard time with it. But anyway, that's a side note.    Jayson Davies     All right, using, using AI for note writing.    Jason Gonzalez     I haven't used it because it's so brand new, but I don't know AI, I feel like you still have to take the note to give AI, to do something with it and like, it's and that's the same thing with evaluations. And I know I'm going to actually mentioned this before about AI. It's just like, you still have to know what the kid is doing to give AI that information for that to break the note. Like AI, I think would be great for progress reports. It can compile all the data you provided in your daily notes, and then they can, you know, take it up and mix it around, and then, you know, write a progress report on that. But for daily notes, like, if you're gonna write the information to give the AI, that's just one extra step for it to just write whatever you're gonna be writing for something that most people aren't gonna read. So even if it's shorthand, I would like to keep the notes simple, like, nine complete sentences wrote 46 letters of the alphabet or whatever, or couldn't write Q and W or whatever. But I don't need, like, it's not a writing contest, and the same thing I can write with the evals. Like, I just need the information out and have it be informative and pretty much concise, like nobody cares, like your grammar, especially for daily notes, your emails, reports, probably should have good grammar.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, I use shorthand all the time for my daily notes, right? Like Ho, H, if for whatever reason, you're doing hand over hand, or you could do h, u, H, if you're doing hand under hand, or something like that. So yeah, watercolor painting.    Jason Gonzalez     Nice transition. Watercolor Painting. Just picked it up. And then I was my wife wanted to do a watercolor painting, pay somebody $300 to do water cooler painting of my dog. And I was like, You know what? I can do that. And so I watched some videos of her, and I did it, and it did not look as good as hers. So pay that $300 No, I'm just joking. It's just different style. I couldn't get the realistic hair. But. I can. I'll send you that picture. Oh, actually, I think I already did. I'll send you the progression, but.    Jayson Davies     I will say this, it looked like a dog. It did look like a dog. That's good. You have a dog, right? I do. It didn't look like my dog, but it looked like a dog.     Jason Gonzalez     All right. Well, I send me a picture. I'll do a watercolor painting of your dog, and you can see if it looks if it looks like it's better than writing daily notes, better than writing daily notes.    Jayson Davies     You're better at painting than daily notes. All right, hopefully not good. We had you here to talk about daily notes anyway. Last one using double time docs?    Jason Gonzalez     Ah, yes. So double time Docs is the company I started in Episode 14, we discussed the evaluation part of it, and so we just added daily notes to it, surprise, surprise. And not because I wanted to, most, you know, it's because everybody asked for it. So not everybody, that's exaggeration. We had lots of emails being like, when are you gonna do daily notes? And the hard part was, is like, how do you speed up daily notes? It only takes two, three minutes or whatever to do. So it took us a while to actually figure out what the best way to do it is. And, you know, I guess we can include that a video later of how to go through it. But I tried to make just like double dime docs. Tried to make it as simple as possible, like, just the basics that you actually need, and then, and, you know, I've looked at other daily notes, softwares, and it was like, it's just a lot of clutter, a lot of things that a lot of boxes, a lot of check things. We just wanted to keep it simple so it's just, you know, you have a the date, all the demographic stuff you need, you know, a little note section you can write down, like what we talked about in this episode, like just the details, like what they did, how the behaviors. And then the great thing about what we have is that the goals are right there. So you can actually see the goals without having to click to another page or another pop up. You can see it's all on the same page, and so you can see their goals, and you can, you know, change the progress right there. And there's a graph that you can it changes as you change its progress. So it's all updated at that time it's saved. And the best part is you can do it on your phone, because we know a lot of people bring their phone, and so it's, I mean, yeah, you can, so you can just do it right on your phone, and it's very visible, it's user friendly, and it's very self explanatory.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I really appreciate that you have the graph. That's really awesome, right? Because it's really nice come progress report time IEP time, you can literally just like, go to the student's goal, click whatever show graph, and you've got this nice little graph. The other feature that I that I remember about it, is that you have the ability to almost like, duplicate a previous note, right? Like you can kind of say this session, I know this session was similar to last week's session. Let me just like, pull over the note from last week, something like that, right?     Jason Gonzalez     Yeah, and we can, and I can show you that in the video. And as you mentioned before about how when you did your notes, you like to look at what they did previously, like, just even the week before, so you know how to pre plan for your next therapy session. So what you can actually do is, yeah, you click on when you're on the screen, you can just click on the date last week's date, January 8 or whatever, and then it automatically populates. Or if you push duplicate on that note, it will change the date, but it'll keep everything the same, so you can see what they did last week, and you can tweak it instead of just writing everything over again. Because, you know, from my experience of, you know, working with kids and doing daily notes, is that a lot of the activities are very similar. So if I'm addressing a writing goal, I would, you know, have them do an activity. And, you know, I'm just looking at the writing. If they're writing two to three sentences, it's pro I'm probably gonna do be writing two to three sentences next week, and then then week after that. So you can just change those little things that whether or not it changed or didn't, instead of writing a whole new he wrote two to three sentences or whatever. And you know, you know, most of our kids don't make big like, if it's shoe tying process or whatever, and I know that's not, you know, the slowest progress in the world for a lot of kids and some that can just stay the same. And that's you note that, you know, and that's the graphs are very beneficial in that aspect. When you're showing it to a parent or an administrator or teacher, you're just like, Look, he has plateaued on this goal for this many weeks. Or, you know, the graph can also show regression and stuff like that. It's like people calling for qualifying for ES, why? You can see that, you know, it took this long for him to get his skills back. And you know, an administration does need that data to qualify kids to whether or not they receive. OT. Eswa, yeah. I mean, whether or not they use it, who knows, but it's a that's usually how they determine whether or not they get eswa.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And I think historically, OTs, we are not great with showing our data, and so I love that, that graph shows the data I know for a long time, until I started incorporating some graphs and data into my reports. Like the ABA therapist would show up with graphs, the speech therapist would show up with like, data on graphs. And here I am, like, just with a really long narrative, and no people like, really show on a graph, but graphs, graphs really speak well to parents and others on the IEP team. So if you've got a graph that shows goal number one, writing out the student's name, or whether it's attending to a specific task for five minutes, or if it's transitioning from one class to another class, like all of that can be put onto a graph, and it speaks a lot. So really cool that you've incorporated that as well. Where can everyone go to learn more about double time docs?    Jason Gonzalez     Oh, I guess you can just go to double time docs.com and then, or you can email me if anybody has questions at Jason at double time docs.com j, A, S O N, not J, A, Y, S, O, N.    Jayson Davies     Just had to throw that one in there, huh? I am Jayson with a Y, Yes, that is me. Jason has no Y in his name.    Jason Gonzalez     Don't want to get people.    Jayson Davies     But yes, double time docs.com we'll be sure to share a link over to that in the show notes. We also Jayson and his team member Scott, over there, they have been very gracious to give everyone at the OT school house who wants to trial out or wants to try out double time. Docs, a discount code. It is OTs H 20, and that'll help you save 20% off your first charge over there at double time. Docs, full disclosure the OT school house myself, we are a affiliate for for double time docs, so we earned a small commission off that. If you don't want us to earn a small commission off that, let me know. We'll figure out a way to get you the 20% off without me getting affiliate for it. But yeah, be sure to check it out. Double timedocs.com doing both evaluations and continuing on with your daily session notes from here on out, Jason, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it, and we'll definitely be staying in touch.    Jason Gonzalez     All right, thanks, Jayson. I'll see you in April.    Jayson Davies     Philadelphia. Let's go. Yep, and that is a wrap on today's episode of the OT school house podcast. A massive thank you to Jason Gonzalez for sharing his valuable insights on note writing. Also, after recording this episode, Jayson showed me exactly how he uses double time docs to complete his notes in just minutes. If you'd like to see that video, check out the show notes at otschoolhouse.com/episode , 169, and if you want to give double time docs a try, you can use promo code OT, S, H, 20 to save 20% on your first charge. That way, you can give DTD a try for yourself and see how much time it can save you, both on notes and with evaluations. Full disclosure, I am an affiliate for double time docs, and I might earn a commission if you use that code, and again, that code is OTs H 20, and you can use it at double time docs.com to start your plan today with that. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you found this episode not only informative, but also motivating to find a way to get your notes done quicker than ever and before you leave the office, thanks again, and I'll catch you next time on the OT school house podcast.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com . Until nex Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 168 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. How can two school-based OTs have identical caseload numbers but vastly different workloads? This episode promises a fresh perspective on evaluating the true demands of our roles, focusing not just on the numbers but the actual time commitments involved. Join me as I introduce a new series of short, five-minute episodes designed to provide quick, actionable insights tailored for the OT Schoolhouse community. Together, we'll explore: • Misconception of measuring your caseload vs another • Understanding the significance of workload in daily practice • How different treatment frequency impact your workload • The implications of the 24-hour treatment threshold • A shift in OT conversations from caseload to workload So, let's break away from the norm and start asking the right questions to truly reflect the demands and responsibilities of our roles. Share your thoughts and let me know if this new format resonates with you! Do you know your workload? Resources 👉 Grab your caseload spreadsheet and identify your workload here. Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. How many OT treatment hours are possible in a week   Jayson Davies    The schoolhouse community. What's happening? It's just me today. This is going to be what I hope will be an ongoing series of just quick, five minute episodes that I hop on here and do very, very briefly. One of my favorite podcasts that I listen to, they do this from time to time, and I really appreciate these short, actionable, kind of just to the point episode. And so we're going to try them out here at the OT school house and let me know if you enjoy them. So reach out to me via email or comment wherever you're listening to the podcast, or the Spotify Apple podcast, wherever it might be. Just drop a review or comment, whatever you can do and let me know if you enjoy these. So yeah, I'm just going to kind of go into it, because I don't want to spend too much time here dabbling around. So today I want to talk a little bit about caseloads and workloads. If you recall a few episodes ago, I kind of made this my focus for 2025 I just kind of wanted to re emphasize the difference between measuring your caseload and measuring your workload, and why, as school based ot practitioners, we need to get away from like that first question, sir, what we need a new school based ot like asking what's your caseload and comparing our cases, because you might ask someone what their caseload is, and they might say their caseload is 50. Now for the sake of this this argument or this discussion, we're going to assume that your case is also 50, right? So when you ask this other school based ot practitioner whether it's an OT or a CODA, and they say their caseload is 50, you are automatically comparing yourself, your caseload of 50 to their caseload of 50. And you're probably thinking, Well, my caseload is probably pretty close to yours, right? But that that might be true, but it also could be completely untrue. And what I mean by that is your caseload, which might be 50 kids at 30 minutes per week, and their caseload, which could be 50 kids at 30 minutes per month, are vastly different, right? You still have 50 IEPs to go to both of you on a given year, give or take, right? You still got 50 progress reports potentially that you need to do. However, when you break this down, your 50 kids at one time a week for 30 minutes comes out to 25 hours of sessions per week. And that other ot practitioner who has 50 kids, but it's 50/30, minute per month sessions, has 25 hours of treatment sessions per month. That breaks down to about six and a half hours per week. That's a big difference, right? Six and a half hours per week versus 25 hours per week, that that's huge. And maybe another ot practitioner has a caseload of 50 kids, just like the two of you do, but they see most of their kids every other week for 30 minutes. Well, now you're looking at 12 hours per week. So this is just why the idea that we are calculating our caseload by the number of kids we see just doesn't work. We're not comparing apples to apples and and this could be the same thing within your district, right? Like maybe you have five ot practitioners within your school district or your county of Education Office, whatever it might be, and you all have 45 to 50 kids. However, one of you leans more heavily on using a consult model, and two of you lean heavily on using a weekly model of treatment services, and the other two kind of tried to go the bi weekly route with a lot of kids. Not to say that you probably have like a mixture, right? You don't have all kids that are one time a week, but on average, maybe you lean one way more so than another. Therapist does well, your cases on paper, and as the district might see, them looks very similar, right? You all got 45 to 50 kids that that's pretty equal. That's pretty even, but when you actually break down the work that those 45 to 50 kids take, it is very, very different. So I guess my point today is, I think we need to stop asking one another, hey, what's your caseload, and instead start asking one another, what's your workload. How many treatment hours are you providing any given week? Or maybe you want to calculate it by month, whatever it might be, but we need to start keeping track of that number, the amount of time that we are spending in treatment any given week. I don't want to go too far into this in this episode, but if you're looking for a number, my number tends to be around 24 treatment hours per week. I think that is kind of the tipping point for school based ot practitioners. Anything above 24 hours per week becomes very unmanageable. You don't have time for evaluations, for IEPs, for any sort of RTI or MTSS involvement, basically you are just doing treatment. I mean, kids are only in school for about 30 to 32 hours per week when you calculate it all together. So that's about six hours per week that kids aren't in school, that you're also not providing treatment. And then your other time is spent, obviously, and documentation, meetings and whatnot. So So yeah, again, just, let's stop asking one another what our caseload is, and move on to asking what in one another, what's our workload, and how much time are we actually spending on treatment any given week. And then we can also ask what we're spending outside of those 24 hours, or whatever it might be, what else are we doing? I think that's a very important conversation that we're not having. So with that, I'm going to sign off on this very first five or so minute episode. Very little editing here, but yeah, again, let me know if you enjoyed this short little tidbit episode. I think it's going to be fun for me. I appreciate it. Sometimes, just not having a guest and and just talking for a little bit, it's going to be fun for me, but I want it to also be beneficial for you. So let me know, email, text, comment, concern, whatever it might be. Let me know any way you can, and I'd be happy to continue the song for you. Take care. Bye. Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 167 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. What do you think makes handwriting fun and effective for kids? In this episode, we dig into strategies that don’t just teach handwriting but make it enjoyable for students.  Dr. Beverly Moskowitz, the Size Matters Handwriting Program creator, shares her 48 years of expertise to show you how to empower teachers, build student buy-in, and integrate handwriting practices across the curriculum. From understanding key concepts like "Super C" letters to using engaging tools like stars, dice, and even spaghetti and meatballs for spacing, this episode is packed with practical, research-based tips. So, grab a notebook and join us as we explore the art of handwriting in a way that's as impactful as it is entertaining! Listen now to learn the following objectives: Learners will identify at least two handwriting strategies that could be embedded in all content areas across the curriculum. Learners will identify at least two handwriting strategies you can use to increase student buy-in and teacher retention in the classroom. Learners will understand the benefits of structured and Adapted Material Guests Bio Beverly H. Moskowitz, DOT, MS OTR/L FAOTA, has over 48 years of experience as a pediatric Occupational Therapist, making significant contributions to the field. She holds a BS in OT from the University of Pennsylvania and both an MS and DOT from Temple University. Dr. Bev is the author of the Size Matters ® Handwriting Program, proven effective in promoting legibility and widely used across the U.S. and internationally.  In 2010, she founded Real OT Solutions ®, which provides effective, affordable solutions for therapists and educators. She was inducted as a Fellow into the American Occupational Therapy Association in 2015. Additionally, Dr. Bev is a national lecturer and offers professional development workshops to teach best practices and time-saving strategies for therapists. Her commitment to mentoring and research continues to influence the field of occupational therapy. Quotes “You have to have concepts and strategies that happen all day long in all content areas because writing does happen in social studies, science. In math, the kids are writing. So you wanna remind kids about the best practices in handwriting so their writing is legible there too” 
-Beverly H. Moskowitz, DOT MS OTR/L FAOTA “Our job is not to give teachers more to do. They have plenty. But we wanna give them strategies that they can embed handwriting across the curriculum, make it easier for them to do so, build that buy in with the kids so that there's follow through.”
-Beverly H. Moskowitz, DOT MS OTR/L FAOTA “Kids love feeling like teachers, and they love catching you when you mess up. When you intentionally mess up and let them critique you, it builds their confidence and ownership over their learning.”
-Beverly H. Moskowitz, DOT MS OTR/L FAOTA Resources 👉 Youtube Live Version 👉 OT Schoolhouse Collaborative 👉 SMHP Resources   Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hey there. And welcome to Episode 167 of the OT school house podcast, as school based ot practitioners, we know that telling or even politely asking kids to quote, unquote, write neatly is never enough to fix their messy handwriting. Instead, to support handwriting development, we need an established plan effective collaboration with teachers, and, of course, the means to help our students build habits over time. Luckily for us, today, we are joined by an OT who has put in a ton of hard work to help make this easier for us by developing a roadmap for achieving such a goal. In today's episode, I'm sharing a sneak peek from one of over 30 professional development courses inside the OT schoolhouse collaborative, our professional development and resource hub for school based ot practitioners. You're about to hear one of my favorite ot practitioners, Dr Beverly Moskowitz, as she shares what works and what doesn't work when it comes to supporting student handwriting skills in her course win over teachers and kids with proven and fun strategies to improve writing. What you're about to hear now is the audio version of Dr Moskowitz course, and you can watch the video version using the link in the description below. However, if you would like access to the full a OTA approved version of this course, complete with access to the slides, resources and yes, a certificate of completion for your continuing education needs, you can do that by becoming a member of the OT school house collaborative in addition to accessing professional development courses, ot schoolhouse collaborative members also have access to exclusive ot school house handouts, our school based ot research library, an interactive IEP goal bank, and my favorite part, our monthly live collaboration hour calls, where You can ask your most pressing school based ot questions without the fear of being judged by parents, teachers, administrators or even other practitioners if you're looking for mentorship and resources related to school based occupational therapy, the OT school house collaborative is your place to be if you haven't joined the OT school house collaborative yet, this is The perfect time to do so join me and hundreds of other new and experienced ot practitioners inside the collaborative at ot  schoolhouse.com/collab , also leave a link in the show notes to help you get there. Alright, enough about the collaborative for now. Let me introduce you to Dr Moskowitz, Dr Bev, as she is often referred to as is an experienced pediatric occupational therapist and the creator of the Size Matters handwriting program. Beverly brings over 48 years of experience and is the founder of Real ot solutions, a company dedicated to providing engaging, practical solutions for handwriting improvement. As a long time school based OT, Dr Moskowitz has leaned into our experience as a school based ot as well as the scientific research to develop and publish the handwriting program now used around the world. In this course, Dr Moskowitz will walk us through concrete steps, valuable tools and interactive games to win over both teachers and students, from Star worthy letters to the innovative Alpha triangle. We'll explore a variety of methods designed to make handwriting not just better but also enjoyable for the kids. So without further ado, let me hand the mic over to Dr Moskowitz as she helps you to win over teachers and kids with proven and fun strategies to improve writing.    Beverly Moskowitz     Well, hi everybody. I wish I could see I can I trust that you're there? Thank you so much Jayson for inviting me to be a part of the OT school house collaborative. As Jayson said, I am a seasoned ot doing this for 48 years, and I'm the author of The Size Matters handwriting program. So I'm delighted to share this with you. Aside from the fact that I have created this program, I truly believe it's the future. I'm a very grounded therapist. You have to teach handwriting, but it's not a bad form. Letter size is that variable that will make the biggest difference in the consistency and therefore the readability of the page, and we have the research to prove it Now this, this short one hour course is not going to go over the research. If you want to learn more about that, you can. I'm going to show you where you can find it, on the website, if you want to download it, if you want to learn about it from me personally, I'll share how you can do that too. But right now I'm going to share with you that yes, I am Beverly Moskowitz, and thank you again, Jayson, for inviting me to speak today. So here's our learning objectives for the next hour. At the end of the time, you're going to be able to identify two to three smhp, and that's our shorthand for size matters, handwriting, program concepts and strategies. That can be embedded in all content areas across the curriculum. The research shows it's not about 250 minutes of practice in a workbook a week. Anyway, you have to have concepts and strategies that happen all day long in all content areas, because writing does happen in social studies, science, in math, the kids are writing. So you want to remind kids about the best practices in handwriting so their writing is legible. There too. You're going to be able to identify two to three smhp concepts and strategies to build student buy in and teacher carry over and gosh, I can't emphasize that enough, it's, you know, people that say, I'm not a handwriting therapist, I'm not a handwriting teacher. I gotta say to you guys, first of all, get over it. We are. We are because we're about function in school practice. We're about function participation. And one of the skills that kids have to do in school is to write. And we, more than anybody else, can identify those concepts and strategies that are doable for teachers. Our job is not to give teachers more to do. They have plenty, but we want to give them strategies that they can embed handwriting across the curriculum make it easier for them to do so, build that buy in with the kids, so that there's follow through. So I'm going to give you a few suggestions for both of those. So we're going to start with the key concepts. There's eight of them. In fact, I should share with you. This is a concept driven approach. You can get started tomorrow with your knowledge alone. Now we have materials. They make it easier for you. They make it more consistent. If you're using smhp in a school setting, a classroom setting. But you can certainly get started with your knowledge alone. And you can even make some of this stuff, and I'll share with you how you can do that in your setting. These are the concepts, writing lines, letter lines, Super C, starting points, touch points, letter size, stars and dice, spaghetti and meatballs. After that, we're going to talk about how to build student, buy in, teacher, carry over. So the first concept is that of writing lines. I don't care if it is April, yeah, I don't care what month it is that you introduce, size matters to your school. We always make sure that we're on the same page, literally naming the writing lines. And I'll say to kids after I put these lines on the board, on your smart boards, Promethean boards, whatever you're using. So what do you guys call this line and you'll hear things like the grass line, the ground line, the foot line. There are programs that have a descender line below here. They call that the foot line. This became the knee line. Size matters. Is a very plain and simple program. We call this line the bottom line. So I asked the kids, and with it, be okay if we just call the bottom line the bottom line. I asked them, What do you call this line? And you'll hear things like the hat line, the headline, the skyline. I mean, there's a zillion names for it. And I say to the kids, if it's okay with you guys, could we just call the top line the top line, and I'm cool with this either being the dotted or the middle line. It's important to establish a uniform terminology for the writing lines, because touching the writing lines in all the right places determines whether or not you made your letters the right size. Now, along with that, concept is that of go lines and finish lines. Go lines are green lines down the left side of the page, the paper the desk. Finish lines are checkerboards down the right side of the page, the paper the desk. And we're talking about teaching the alphabet for not for submitted characters who go right to left, but for those of us who write left to right. I prefer a finish line to a red line because it implies dynamic movement. We're moving toward the finish line. So yes, movement toward the go line, it would be considered backward movement. Movement toward the finish line would be considered forward movement. And we talk about that in the directionality of making certain letter lines, the top of seven, the slant in R, the hump in H, those letter lines are made in the direction of the finish line. They're considered forward moving. Letter lines. By contrast, the bottom of G, that little hook, that first diagonal in K, the diagonal in Z, those letter lines are made in the direction of the go line. They're considered backward moving letter lines go. Lines and finish lines are terrific visual references. If you have kids with reversals, if you have kids with dyslexia, dysgraphia, they give, give the kids that directionality, queuing that they need to make their letters properly oriented. You can put go lines and finish lines on desks if you wanted to use highlighter tape for the green line, I caution against using floral tape. Learn that lesson the hard way. It will stain your sleeve. You can buy checkerboards from Amazon. You can make a checkerboard. Get some masking tape and a Sharpie, make a little checkerboard that will help your kids remember the directionality of movement now go lines and finish. Lines are cute for your younger kids, not so cute for your older kids. Know that they eventually morph into your left and right margin lines, but don't expect that anybody knows what they are. Ask the kids, you know, why that line is there, they're going to be like, no, okay, so you want to say to them, that's because all of your writing has to begin next to your go line or your left margin line. And if you have more than three letters to write and you see that right margin line coming up, you're going to go the next line. If you're making a list, you're going to make your numbers to the left or outside your left margin line. Okay, the next concept is that of letter lines, and this year is where we name them. We have standing tall, letter lines, lying down. Letter lines. We have slant ones, they go forward and backward. Clock lines that wrap around an analog clock from 12 to six or six to 12. Sure hope you have some analog clocks in your classrooms, frown lines that go forward and backward. And I would often do this exercise just to entertain myself, because invariably, here's what you see when you ask a child to find, can you find me a letter that has a standing tall line in it? The kids are going to look all over the place like it's going to jump out of thin air. Okay, that's how you know that they never noticed the alphabet strip above the board, the one that's on their desk. Basically, they think that's for filing their nails. Any of the posters that are in the room, it's it's white noise. So you might want to introduce your children to those awesome references your teachers have taken time to hang up during handwriting instruction. Time, you can ask kids to identify different types of letter lines if you have something like that in your school, and we'll talk about if you do or if you don't. Now, Super C is our superhero. He is a letter line, but he's so important, he's given his own status as a key concept. So there are five upper case letters that are super CS, C, G, o, s and Q. There are seven lower case letters that are super CS, A, C, D, G, O, Q, s and he comes packaged with a little extra drama. We always identify what letter size a letter is. And then we say, but not only, and that means that it starts with the C formation. So how are you going to remind kids about what a C formation is, so they don't make that backwards parking back to your go lines and finish lines, and think about, what does superheroes do? Well. They save us, they protect us. So like any superhero, Super C is going to go back to go first, to make sure there's no stragglers, nobody left behind. Gather up all those stragglers before he continues on his way. That's the supersea backstory, but that may be the story, the visual, the kinetic, motion that kids need to live, to remember to always go back, to go before they head forward when they're making Super C letters. The next concept is that of starting points and initial lines. So starting points are indicated by a green dot, a little directional arrow. Initial lines are the lines that emanate from the starting point. So in this little excerpt from the therapist manual, you can see that all the letters start on a line. The initial line for uppercase, A is a backwards slant for uppercase. B, it's a standing tall for Super C, for C, imagine that it's a Super C letter. It starts at the top line. In fact, all letters at the Size Matters hand running program start on a line. Remember I said that? So let's talk about initial lines. Where does what's the initial line for upper case? F? Give you a chance to think about it. Oh, you are correct. It is a standing tall for uppercase V, it's a forward slant. How about Z, it's a forward lying down. G, it's a Super C, okay, now it's going a little bit tricky. How about lowercase F? Where does it start? What's its initial line? It's an exception. It starts below the top line. Its initial line is a backward frown. How about lower case? A, Oh, I hit the button too fast. It starts between the dotted and the bottom line. Its initial line is a forward lying down. Listen, I don't even bring those letters up until I get to it. You got one of those letters in your name? You got to it, but I drill consistency of size. Size matters is not a font. This is a very simple letter creation. Everyone's going to stylize on their own. I don't know if you're writing the same way you learned when you were in kindergarten. I know that I'm not. I learned ball and stick kind of writing everyone's going to stylize. You don't need to teach a stylized font if they eventually decide that they want to put a little monkey tail at the bottom of their tea that's okay, as long as they're touching the bottom line. How about number eight? Where does eight start? And what's its initial line? Well, it starts at the top line and it's a Super C. Number Three starts at the top line and it's its initial line. Is a clock line, lower case r starts at the dotted line. Its initial line is a standing tall. Okay, you can figure this part out. The next concept is that of touch points. And when I say touching, I don't mean getting really close. There cannot be any air between your pencil point and the writing line, and you can't be poking through the line either. Has to be a nice, clean intersection. Now, before we had a pandemic, I used to go up to kids and say, so am I touching you? How about now? Bring my finger closer and closer to the nose. Now I touch my own nose. Am I touching? Am I touching? How about now? Because touching means touching. So we actually count how many times letter lines touch writing lines. C is easy. It touches at the top. It touches at the bottom, two touch points. Now note that their red arrows indicate when letter lines touch writing lines, blue arrows indicate when letter lines touch other letter lines. So bees a little bit trickier you could say. And I hope you can see my cursor, touching, touching, touching, touching, touching, and tell me it has five touches. I would be cool with that, unless your child made that be and their first clock line started down here, you're going to say to those kids, so your clock line has to touch the top line. Now you're going to count that touch point. Or if they start their B and there's a gap they started over here, your clock line has to touch the standing tall line. This is a bit of a gray area. It's most important that you're consistent with yourself that said, if your kids letters are unrecognizable, it may well be because the touch points aren't there. So that's when you want to get fussy about making sure that all of the touch points are accounted for. Okay, but the biggie is the rule for letter size. So you call these letters, over time, tall letters. There's some programs. They call them your giraffe letters. I'm pretty sure that a seventh grader is not going to find that as cute as a kindergartner. We call them size one, size two, size three. That's what we call our different sizes. So the rule for size one letters is this, I like to say it's package is a song and a dance. I'm going to sing and dance for you all right now size one letters, they have to touch the top line, they have to touch the bottom line. They can't go higher. They can't go lower. They can't float in the middle. My friends, I did not tell you that. It was a great song and dance. And dance as a sound bite. You're going to say a zillion times a day. And touching means touching. So make your writing lines on the board. Make a pink rectangle. That's our color for size one. Make it exactly. Touch the top and bottom line. Teach the kids the rule, and then I make a perfect letter. I point out all the touches, touching, touching, touching, touching, touching, touching. If you make a letter like that, I'm going to give you a store. I wonder if I can do that again. Do you think I can? I can't. I make every single one at a time. Errant looking a I've ever seen the kids make, and one at a time, I asked the kids to critique me. Is it star worthy? They go, No, you say, why not? I'll say, well, it's too tall. It's too long. This one is floating. This one's not touching over here. This is not touching on the on the dotted line. Finally, touching, touching, touching, touching, touching, touching. That's how you earn a star. All your uppercase letters are size one, and I don't care if you come to me in ninth grade and know that the research shows that you can still make improvements in handwriting through ninth grade. And that said I had a colleague share with me before and after results of a client who had a stroke, the change was remarkable after a few sessions, and that client was 92 so I don't know. I think you can make changes in handwriting way beyond ninth grade, but I don't care what grade you you start always go back to the upper case alphabet, because the rule is the same for every single one, they have to touch the top line. They have to touch the bottom line. They can't go higher. They can't go lower. They can't float in the middle. Now, after you do your upper case letters, your size one upper case letters write words that are commonly found in upper case letters, and a good source for that, or signs. Look for signs in and around your building. It may say, It probably says, exit in all capitals. Principals office may be in all capitals cafeteria. Look for signs in and around your neighborhood. Your school name may be above the front door on the lawn. Use words that the kids will recognize they practice writing them in all uppercase letters, making each of those letters star worthy. After you do that, you move on to your size one lower case letters. There are only seven of these. I do not teach B and D at the same time. I teach B as part of the BLT and as before, make the lines on the board, make your pink rectangle. Review the rule, make that perfect letter point at all the touches. Then you say, you think I can do that again. Okay, the kids are starting to get wise to you, because now you can't, yeah, listen, if there was more screen here, I can make 20 more errant looking ds. And now you ask the kids, so how do I do? And the kids go, terrible. You say, Why? It's too tall. This is too high. This is too low. This is floating. This is not touching. It's not touching here, finally, touching in all the right places, touching, touching, touching, touching. Way to earn a star. But not only, and this is where, in United chorus, the kids should, should yell out. It's also a Super C, meaning it starts with a C formation after your size. One lower case, you're moving on to your size too. And here's the rule, they have to touch the dotted line. They have to touch the bottom line. They can't go higher. They can't go lower. They can't float in the middle. Gosh, I hope you weren't expecting more. It's a sound bite. You're going to say a zillion times a day. Now there are 14 size two letters. I do not consider the.in lowercase. I part of the body. It's the standing tall part that has to touch the dotted line in the bottom line. Yellow is our color for size two. Make your lines on the board. Scan some adapted writing paper onto your smart boards. Yellow square indicates a size two letter, and then you're going to make a perfect one, pointing out how it touching in all the right places. And then the question, do you think I could do that again? And the kids go, No, you're terrible at this, and you are, and you're intentionally making every single a you there, they all look like A's, right? Every single one of them looks like an a and I would venture a guess that if you looked at your children's printing letter by letter, you could figure out what they were. It's in the context of the whole but it's a mess. That's how you know it's not about form. It has to be the consistency of size. So let the kids critique you. Finally, you're going to make one that's touching in all the right places. Way to earn a star. But not only, and I hope that you're all saying it's also a Super C. Okay, here's the rule for size three letters need to be sitting down. Size three letters have to touch the dotted line, have to go below the bottom line. Can't go higher, must go lower. And if it has a belly, it has to be sitting on the bottom line. Okay, I don't know if you were looking at the screen when I was doing this, but I was doing my little dance with my hands. Here, there are five size three letters. Oh, I don't know why they're not populating G, j, p, q and Y. It'll probably populate the end of the slide. Blue is our color for size three. Make your rectangle so it starts at the dotted line and goes below the bottom line. Make a perfect G, pointing out all the touches, touching, touching, touching, going below. And then, do you think I could make another one. Then go nope, and Oh, there they are. There's the five size three letters. The only one without a belly is is j. And now you're going to make everything you've ever seen the kids do. Okay. Again, they all look like G's. But are they star worthy? Let the kids critique you. You know, when you teach the kids the rules, it's as if you gave them the answers to the test. Now the kids can score you. They can score themselves. And best practice, research shows that when kids have the ability to self monitor, you build the buy in. You are giving the ability to self monitor to them by teaching them the rules they can score each other. Oh, now you can build pure mentors, finally touching in all the right places. Way to earn a star. But not only it's also a Super C, okay, the next concept, well, you've heard me talk about way to earn a star. The next concept is stars and dice. Stars and dice both a concept and a strategy, and that's going to lead to the kids feeling empowered teachers being able to carry over these concepts throughout the school day and being able to embed it across the curriculum. So I've used the word star worthy. Letter lines have to touch the writing lines in all the right places. At this point, we are scoring for size only. And in fact, this is a research study that I'm looking to launch anybody in a doctoral program, contemplating a doctoral program, looking for a research study, please reach out to me a whole bunch. We already have more research than any other program out there, and we're not done so there's several studies in development. We have six published studies already, but I am already in talks with several universities for more studies, and this is one of them. You know, all of the hand running assessments out there. The ths, the test of handwriting skills, is the only standardized one. The rest are normal criterion referenced, relatively easy test to administer. It's a horrible test to score. You can be sitting there for 50 minutes trying to score it. The other ones aren't, aren't much better. My contention is it really it's about size. Stop with your millimeter ruler. Who cares if once you score for size, you get enough information that you can then have that child redo that same baseline writing sample, their name, upper and lower case, alphabet, a grade level sentence. Score it for size. After a period of intervention, you will see a market difference, and it will take you seconds to score clinical utility. That's important. So at this point, we're only scoring for size. Let's prove that, let's, let's do a study and prove that we have a valid outcome measure using just size. So for instance, suppose a child wrote three letters, aaa, ABC, dog, and all of those letters were the right size. They got a score of three out of three. That's a perfect score. However, if their letters are not the right size, or maybe they made them the right size, but they made them the wrong way. So maybe instead of using two slant lines, and I'm hoping you're looking at me in the screen, if they instead of using two slant lines for an upper case A, they're using one standing tall, one slant line for an upper case A, you're gonna play the dice game see if you can straighten it out. Suppose they started their letters at the bottom, instead of starting them at at the top, the top odd line or the dotted line, they're going to play the dice game to work on, starting from the right place. And that said, my friends, oh, it's time to play the dice game. The dice game determines practice whatever the kids roll is, how many times they have to make a star worthy letter? If they roll a five, they have to make five star worthy letters. If they make five letters and only two are star worthy, they're still making you that letter. They're going to look at you cross side, really. And I often say to them, Do I look like I'm kidding? No, you have to make star worthy letters. And if they roll a one, imagine that they only have to make you one. So suppose they wrote the word Monday, and it looked kind of like this. I'm going to give a star to OT. Overall, these letters are the right size. So there were six. There's two stars if you need a percentage, there you go. I'm going to underline M, N, A and Y. Those letters are not the right size. They are not touching the writing lines in all the right places. I'm going to play the dice game with each of those letters. Also going to underline D, while overall it's the right size. You'll notice there's a gap between the Super C part and the standing tall, and I'm scoring for size so they get a star. But now when I play the dice game, I want to fine tune it. I want to close that gap. I want to make sure that all parts of this M are touching the writing lines, same thing with the Y. And that said, my friends, if your children, especially if they are in higher grades, higher grades could be second, third grade on up, if they continue to make that upper case a, okay, look at me if they continue to make that upper case a with a standing tall line and a slam line, but it's the right size, I'm gonna tell you to move on. They just created their own font. And it's not about letter lines anyway, we teach them, but at a certain point in time, you need to move on, because it really is not the most important thing. It's the consistency of size. Suppose the only way they don't reverse upper case N is by starting at the bottom, going up forward, slant up on teaching starting at the bottom, because it's not about starting points either. So this is a very grounded approach here. We really don't it is the consistency of size. We are not that concerned with letter lines. We teach them, but we have to be grounded, practical realists. It's consistency of size. And if you think about a cursive starts at the bottom. A lot of submitted characters start at the bottom. We're hung up on starting at the top. That's not the most important thing. Okay, after that, we teach spacing, and we call that spaghetti and meatballs. That's our concept for teaching spacing. I strongly suggest that you not get hung up on space until you get 80% accuracy and size and you will. And then we talk about inside space, in between letters, a little spaghetti. Outside space, a big, fat meatball. So at this point in time, I walk around with colored pencils. If it's a young child, I'm going to leave that point dull. If it's an older child, I'll go to sharpen that pencil. I use yellow for my spaghetti. And if there's still room, I'm still making spaghetti. Now I count all my potential spaghetti spaces, FYI. If you have a six letter word, you have five potential spaghetti spaces. If you have a three letter word, you have two potential spaghetti spaces. So you can count up all the letters in your words. You know as it was, all the spaces between your in your words. Count how many of those issued single stars and there's your data that's pretty easy. Meatball spaces go outside of your words. So now I take my red colored pencil and I draw a little meatball in between all my words. If they didn't crowd the right margin, give them a free meatball. If they properly aligned down the left margin, give them a free meatball. But make all your meatballs the same size so they the kids can see, well, this one was overlapping star, those places where there was room for only one meatball, not a meat loaf. And there's your data. Kids love this concept, and that said they cannot score themselves for spaghetti and meatballs unless they swap out their pencil for yellow and red ones, because then it's unreadable all over again. Now it's all lined up, and you can't figure out what they wrote, so make sure that they have that handy when you're ready to score for that. Any questions on the concept so far? Or you know what? We can leave the write your questions down in the chat box. Let's catch up with them at the end of the presentation. If that's okay, that is perfect. Bev, go ahead, yeah. Okay. So let's talk about pushing into classrooms contextual collaboration, working within the context of whatever subject the teachers are covering. So suppose there is a handwriting instructional time good for you. So you can ask the teachers, can I come to your classroom? Oh, we already have a handwriting curriculum. Size matters. Can play in the sandbox with with any handwriting program. In fact, if your schools are embracing the science of reading curriculum. We are the science of handwriting. So there is a way to work together with those people or any other handwriting curriculum. No worries. Just ask them what the letter of the day is. We're going to come in and maybe do a lesson. On letter lines. So we can use the similar language. Can you find any letters with different types of letter lines? And then whatever the letter of the day is, make a perfect one. Now you're going to teach the kids the rules. I'm sorry. I should have said that. Teach the kids the rules, make that perfect letter, pointing out all the touches. And then, well, you know where this is going, you're going to make a series of really bad ones, because they all look like G's let the kids critique you. They love this part. Little kids love feeling like teachers, and they love catching you when you mess up. You are intentionally messing up. They're so empowered by that that the kids tell you why. It's not stir worthy. You're going to look crestfallen during language arts, walk around with dice. For all those teachers that may say to you, may or may not, say to you, I listen. I believe in handwriting. I don't. I don't have any time in the day. Can you walk around with dice is what you're going to say to them, because when they're walking around, they can stop by somebody's desk, point to a letter or or a word, something that you've covered already, the letters that you've covered, if all the letters in the word have are ones that you've covered the whole word. And then ask the kids to have to do, is it star worthy? And now the kids are going to go, Uh, no. You say, Well, why not? What? What size is upper case, a and, and what's the rule? So you're now, you're singing and dancing with the kids. Suggest they pick out a die that's calling their name. Listen, my dice game has 24 die in it. They're four sided. They're six, 810, 1220, fasted to die. I say to the kids, if you irritate me, I'm going to give that to you on purpose. You're going to be there all day. Uh, they're sparkled. They're iridescent, marbleized. Some of them have the pips, a little dots, some have numbers, some have sign language. They're adorable. And if you have any dice in your classrooms, they're just as cute. So go scrambling through your board games that you're not playing anymore. Get those dice together. The kids roll the die and at the bottom of the page, the back of the page, or another piece of paper entirely. You can sneak in some practice. Now, listen, if you stop one child, you better believe the child next to him, behind him, across the room, saw that interaction, and they're thinking letter size, because they know they could be next during any subject. I'll use the magnetic rectum square board. So this is a wipe off board, and in truth, is not magnetic. I have to always tell everybody it's Ferris back. It means it has iron chips so that magnets stick to it. But we have a lot of itinerants, teachers, therapists, maybe amongst you out there, you too that go from class to class or school to school. So in order to make it lightweight, it's Ferris back comes in a tube, so you can carry it, you can staple it to a a bulletin board, thumb tack it. It works best if you back it up to a magnet board. It comes with little white thumb tacky magnets, and then you use the pink, yellow, blue. It has 25 magnets to, you know, right to cover up a word right on the board. Cover with the magnets. Right on the magnets, they're all wipe off surfaces. It's a great way to introduce new concepts, vocabulary that's integral to a lesser we got a unit here on on weather for all grades. And I apologize. I realized that I did not put this slide into the handout. So if you want to take a screenshot, I'll wait a minute until I populate the whole screen, or you can just take notes here. But for all grades, a dish issue adapted writing paper at different grade levels. So in pre K, the distance from the top to bottom line the ruling should be an inch and a half. Skip space refers to the space between a set of writing lines that should be an inch. In kindergarten, the distance from top to bottom line is an inch. The skip space should be five eighths of an inch. First grade, three quarters of an inch with a one half inch skip space. Second grade, half an inch from top to bottom with a 3/8 inch skip space. Third grade, adapted paper. First of all, it's the same ruling as regular ruled paper. What makes it adapted is that it has a well, our paper has a thicker bottom line. Stopping is harder than starting. We give kids an extra chance to get it right, and it continues to have that dotted middle line. So that really helps distinguish the sets of writing lines. And here's how beautifully this all works with size matters. So suppose Jason is in Jason, you're in first grade, and you're doing an amazing job with those size one letters, their size two letters, size three letters. I'm doing my happy dance, Jayson, I believe that you are ready for second grade paper. How do you feel? I. He feels fantastic. I don't know where he    Jayson Davies     is. He's dancing. Oh, he's    Beverly Moskowitz     dancing. Is the right is the right response? Okay. Again, every little kid likes to feel like a big kid. I've graduated Jason up and sitting next to him is Abdel. He says, Well, how about me? And I say, you are so close, good buddy, what are we thinking about those size two letters? What's the rule now, once again, we're singing and dancing. I'm going to come back in a couple weeks. I I believe that second grade papers in your future. This is a huge motivator. The kids want to graduate up, and a lovely thing that you can do for your teachers is to give them reams of two sided first, second, third grade paper so they have it available during any subject. Here's a great way to build that connection with your teacher all. Imagine this. The kids walk in in the morning, they hang up their coat, their book back and their cubby, they grab a worksheet, and they have to solve the puzzle. So looking at these O, W words down here, which one is the first one, I know you're saying to yourself, that's plow, and the second one No, and the third one snowy, the fourth one grown. Show how listen. It's a combination of the number of letters and letter size. The kids solve the puzzle, then they have to write the words. And for anybody who's been confronted by a teacher when you showed up their classroom, who has said to you, who are you taking? I don't think anybody I want to come in? Okay, this is a way to win over those teachers. Create a worksheet because they're going to go, actually, that was pretty cool. You just supported curriculum so they can write their letters. Eventually, this could be a job given to kids that they they create these worksheets for their classmates. Uh, you can play games like Simon says, Be a letter line so everybody knows how Simon Says works. So imagine this. You want to have go lines and finish lines. The kids are all facing the front of the room. Here's your board right here. Maybe you make posters, get some foam core. Make a big green stripe, put it on the left side. That's your goal line. You have a checkerboard. Put it on the right side, that's your finish line. If you don't have a setup like that, maybe you get some easels and you make your go lines and finish lines. You project. You know how you make each other do each of the different letter lines. For instance, when Simon says, Be a standing toe line, you have to stand or sit. If they're sitting really straight, like a statue. Simon says, Be a lying down line. You're going to place your head on the desk, or for feeling really playful, you can lie down across your desk, on the floor, on the on the window sill. Simon says, Be a slant line. Now Simon is going to either to ask you to be a forward or a backwards slant. If you're a forward slant, you're going to lean toward the finish line. If you're a backwards then you're going to lean toward the go line. And remember, you know how Simon works. He says, Simon says, Be a forward slant. Simon says, Be a backwards land. Simon says, Be a forward stand. They they look like cuckoo birds. Okay. And then you finally say, um, be a forward slant. Okay. Now everyone starts to move them, but Simon didn't say they're out. Simon says, Be a Super C. Now this is a little bit more challenging. You always have to face the finish line. That's the direction you're going, put your hands up in the air and bend over so that your butt is pointing toward the go line. You like to pair that you're going to want to pair that with. Simon says, Be a clock line. So you're going to continue facing the finish line, hands up in the air, and now you're going to bend backwards so your belly is toward the finish line. Simon says, Be a supersede. Be a be it. Simon says, Be a clock line. Because, okay, the kids are going back and forth and they're all giggling and and that's just a fun way to reinforce letter lines. Simon says, Be a smile. Simon says, Be a frown, be a smile. Oh, you missed it. Okay, that's a fun game to play. Moving back to how else you can bring these concepts into your classroom? Volunteer to be a center. I was in a school that didn't believe in handwriting practice, handwriting instruction in kindergarten, I'm like, really love you center. So I became a handwriting center. It's very popular center. Everyone want to the truth is, kids want to learn the rules. They want to please you. So that enabled me to model language strategies that the teachers could use. And centers are a great time to play with the different concepts. So I'll go over a few of these. Center time games, dissect and tally. You want to find letters with each type of letter line. Maybe you want to find letters in different count up all the different letter lines in a student's name. How many of each type of letter line i. Play directional games where you reinforce that positional movement. Moving toward the goal line is backward, moving toward the finish line is forward. Get sentence strips from your their school, issue ones, I'm I'm pretty sure that your school has them. And then open up your literacy, social studies, science books, and then, using pink, yellow, blue markers, crayons, colored pencils, the kids are going to graph a phrase, a sentence, a word, and then trade it with their neighbor, make it something that's that's meaningful, language, that's meaningful to solve the puzzle and then write the sentence again, both creation of the puzzle and then solving your neighbor's puzzle can be a fun center game. Use the magnetic director, square board. We call it the MRB because that's such a mouthful. Use the the MRB to graph kids, names, high frequency words, word wall, words, play snowman. So what is snowman? Let's go look familiar. So you use the MRB, and you cover up, you write the words, and then you cover them up. And as the kids guess a letter, or they guess a wrong letter, you draw more and more parts of the snowman. If they get it right, you can write on the magnet, or remove the magnet if they get it wrong. Well, you know where this is going. The idea is to solve the puzzle before the sun comes out, because that will melt your snowmen. Play ransom notes. Or this game requires a little bit of prep. You want to gather some samples of writing from children, and you're going to cut them into individual letters. So looking at the, you know, the old time ransom notes, where they cut and paste in, okay, that's what we're going for here. Okay, so looking at the word yarn, what would the score be? Now, your denominator, there's always going to be fraction. Your denominator is already, always the number of letters. There's only one star. Here's your score. Looking at the word string as it's written, what would the score be? Well, how many of these letters are in stars? Now that n is not beautiful, but I'm scoring for size. I will play the dice game on end to try and make sure they trace that what's going to be a forward frown better. But there's the score, three out of six. Wooly, oh, that came with the answer. Okay, two out of five. Okay, there's plenty of games where that came from. Letter, line equations. Oh, this is a pre download from my website if you want to, if you want to print out the letter line equation card. But imagine if you had a standing tone, three lying down lines. What letter would you be making? Oh, you guys are so smart, and you didn't even have to say it out loud. Okay, the upper Casey, uh, letter blocks. Now, some of these centers we actually do during my live courses, so we we create this material, but you can make this in your in your schools, as is get those sentence strips your school issued ones are often an inch and a half from top to bottom line. The ones that you get from Staples, or like, an inch from top to bottom line. So, so whatever your your sentence strip is, you're going to use that measurement to make your size one, two or three blocks. You can take a sheet of construction paper if you want, or, even better, get those phone sheets, because they're more durable. They're not going to rip so quickly. And then you're going to make top and bottom lines thusly. So, if you're a pre K student, make the distance from the top to the bottom line four inches. The distance from the dotted line to the bottom line two inches. Kindergarten top to bottom line will be two inches. Dotted Line to bottom line. This, this, this is, yeah, this is if you're going to be making those the pink, yellow and blue squares and rectangles. If it's an inch, the distance can be a inch and a half top to bottom, or three quarters of an inch. If you're in second grade, you can make smaller ones an inch from top to bottom, and then get your pink, yellow and blue construction paper. Or better still, if you can get foam sheets, and these are the dimensions that you're going to be making. Your pink rectangles are going to be four inches by two inches. So you're going to, you know, make lines. The kids can help make this. Use your the Alpha triangle. I don't know if you know, if I should show that to you. This is the alpha triangle. I'm holding it up, so look, look at me. Okay, this will help you to measure it. And when the kids are drawing lines, they can put their hand above it and not get their fingers in their way. Help cut them out. Alpha triangle there that can help you to measure it. And then you can store these. Create a little envelope if you want, or just use an envelope to store all your shapes in it. And then, when, before any kind of writing activity, if there's language vocabulary, the kids would pull out their, let me just go back and show this. They'd pull out their white foam sheet. They'd pull out their pink, yellow and blue their envelope with their pink, yellow and blue squares and rectangles, and they would graph it on the phone sheet or the sentence strip. And if your principal is on board with this, perhaps you could encourage them to identify a wall outside of their office as the wall of fame. Once kids have mastered letter size, they get to write their name on a sentence strip, hang it up on the wall. It's a real status symbol. You know, everybody likes to have their name on, you know, in lights. That's kind of what you're doing. You're giving them the opportunity to also have their name in lights. Let's talk about copying. Okay, so that was some ways to build the buy in. Let's talk about build how to promote copying, because it's another issue that we often get referrals for. Kids are missing their bus because they weren't done copying the homework, or they copied something down, but there were so many errors. You couldn't read it. They couldn't even read it. They know. They didn't know what they're what the assignment was. So knowing when you're teaching copying, this is the smhp approach to copying. There's a visual, auditory and oral component to it, and here's the strategy. So first the visual part, direct line copy. That means that the prompt, whatever is they're copying, is on the paper right above the lines they're going to be writing on. So everything's within the same visual field. They basically don't have to move their eyes. That's followed by a near point prompt, which is at the end of the desk. And I'm amazed how many times I'd go into a classroom and the kids kindergarten first, they're expected to copy something against to the far end of the desk, and you're asking for a gaze shift, or the prompt is off to the side, and now you're doing a lateral gaze shift, where the medial, lateral muscles of the eyes are expected to the excursion is different lengths. Okay, start with direct line near point at midline. It's now at the center of the back of the desk, or a little bit further away, even further, and then now it's at the board. So that's the sequence of copying distance that goes into this rubric distractions refers to what else is on the prompt. If you wrote on the chart, is just copying a single sentence from a problem. Might not be anything else on the paper, but maybe they're copying out of a book, and now there's a graphic or some other things that they have to copy now they gotta pretend they don't see it there. Maybe there's a lot of that kind of distractions. Maybe there's something that's written there, but it's a whole different context. It's not related to what they're writing, or maybe they are copying a sentence out of a paragraph, in which case the prompt is embedded in terms of visual cues. Is the prompt on the same kind of paper that kids are going to be writing? The writing on first grade adapted paper. The prompt is on first grade adapted paper. Maybe they also have a near point, a sample of what letters look like. Maybe they have an alpha triangle nearby, or you have a desktop alphabet strip that they've been referencing and they haven't destroyed at this point in the year. I just the same type of paper, but there's, you know, it says the same type of paper. Maybe the prompt is on third grade paper and they're writing on first grade paper, or vice versa, and there's a near point Q. Maybe it's the same type of paper, but there's no near point Q, no point, no reference. Maybe the teacher just wrote on the board and there's no lines at all, but you're giving them an alpha triangle, maybe they're writing on the board and they have nothing to reference. So maybe there's that. And then the other thing to reference when it comes to understanding copying is chunking. So chunking is language that teachers use when they are promoting fluency in reading after they teach kids how to identify individual sounds at a time, they teach them to blend those sounds, consonant blends, or consonant, vowel, consonant. Now we got phonemes, so that helps them to be faster and more accurate. And know that this is part of the written language production standards. If you don't know about that. You don't know about it yet because it's brilliant, and not in this short course right here, but you can download it from my website and learn about it. So chunking, it's divided into the number of letters that you copy at a time before you have to look back up to the prompt, or the number of words you have to copy before you look up to the prompt. And. 10 now, if the word is chunking, for instance, I see a C, I write a C, I see an H, I write it an H, I see a that's not very fast. I'm copying one letter at a time. But if I can see groups of letters, C, H, U, and then I write C, H, U, and then I look back up and I go, N, K, I'm doing three letters at a time. So no, the strategy to help kids, the the auditory and the oral strategy is to say it when you read it, say it when you write it. You kids need to hear it if they if you can't hear them, they can't hear themselves. So you may want to make sure they are sub vocalizing using that one inch voice. And now you watch their gaze shift. They look up. They say it when they read it. They look back down. They say it when they write it. Note how much they wrote before they look back up again. You're going to reach in with your red pen and you're going to scoop it. So this child wrote the words if the and then he looked back up. He wrote the words W, the letters, W, O, R, then he looked back up, D, S, then he looked back up. So if words are familiar, it may be possible copy 234, words at a time. If a word is especially long or it's new, they maybe just be copying 234, letters at a time. And then you go back and you tally how many individual letters do they cut copy a time? 1234, you're going to put it onto the rubric. So going back to the rubric, this prompt was on the board. So it was far point. There was nothing else on the board, no distractions. It was an online prompt. They the teacher wrote on the board, and there were no lines there. And then child didn't have an alpha triangle handy. And then I'm going to put all those tally marks underneath chunking, so that I know now you have data. Now you have data to use when you are scoring somebody's copying skills in terms of pushing in the student workbook is really helpful. If your school adopts a handwriting curriculum, they adopt size matters in the beginning, lots of practice on making different types of letter lines starting on green, stopping on red. Those are your standing tall lines, your slant lines. Sometimes note that the green is at the bottom because you have you can have some slant lines that go from bottom to top. Your Super C lines, smiles and frowns go forward and backward. Clock lines can be counterclockwise. Teach the kids about Super C and starting points and initial lines touch points, and then the rules for letter size one, two and three, and then stars and dice. And then you get up to an actual practice page. Looks like this in the Student Workbook, identifying the letter size. What size is uppercase F? Well, I don't make it hard, the entire alphabet is in pink. There's a pink box here. It says size one you're going to do the song and the dance. Identify the different types of letter lines. How many standing tall, lying down, or slant lines? And sometimes the answer is none. How many touch points are in there? Look at the purple letter. Count, touching, touching, touching, touching, touching, touching. Six mark, the starting point on the big purple letter. Trace the initial line. Which letter is star worthy and why are the other ones not? This is everyone's favorite section on the page, because they all look like F's. Only one of them is star worthy. The kids have to tell you why the other ones aren't. Do a little trace it, make it inside the long letter box. The kids play their own individual dice game. They rolled a four, they make four, they stop and score themselves. Now they can swap books with their neighbor, if, as long as they're kind and they roll the dice until they finish up. The lines. Note the Go lines and finish lines are here. There's a little coloring section. Note that the coloring sections are two frame stories. Starts on the upper case page. This is a frog catching fish. Ends on the lower case page. It's fish chasing after a frog, and they're intentionally detailed, even though I tell you that the the student workbook is a kindergarten level book, we don't write that anywhere on the book, because we do have older kids that are working at this level. The first year that schools districts adopt size matters, we encourage workbooks for kindergarten also, but the just the same. The cartoons are detailed because I'm promoting this, and if you're looking at my camera, I am promoting that mobility at my IPs, that push, pull movement, not this. So you just want them to call it cut. Just color in his foot, just color in the fish and model that movement. And if the kids need more practice, there's a series of activity books, 18 activity books that practice. Practice each letter inside of letter boxes. So that said. Now, are there any questions?    Jayson Davies     Well, there you have it, the one and only. Dr Bev, thank you so much. Dr Moskowitz, for sharing all of your valuable knowledge with us. We really appreciate it and just all the things that you are doing for well school based ot practitioners, but also other ot practitioners and the families that we all serve, and also thank you to well you for tuning in and enjoying this episode. Hopefully you enjoyed it, and if you did enjoy this learning experience and would like to earn a CEU for this course and dozens of other school based ot courses just like it. Please be sure to check out the OT schoolhouse collaborative at ot  schoolhouse.com/collab as an extra. Thank you for tuning into this special episode. You can use promo code podcast 167 to save 25% off your first payment of the OT school house collaborative, again, that promo code is podcast 167, all one word, no spaces, and it's the numbers 167, not spelled out. Podcast 167, really appreciate you tuning in today. I hope you enjoyed this one. I hope you are able to take some of these techniques that Dr Bev talked about today and implement them into your practice as soon as possible. Again, learn more about the OT schoolhouse collaborative at ot  schoolhouse.com/collab where you can earn your CEU for listening to this episode. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on the OT school house podcast.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

As school-based occupational therapy practitioners, we support students in ways that extend beyond the therapy room. Consultations are a particularly powerful tool, serving either as a standalone service or a complement to direct therapy by improving skill carryover into the classroom. Research ( see references below ) shows that consultations between OTPs and school staff enhance intervention implementation and improve students’ participation in academic and social settings. When staff integrate OT strategies into daily routines, students experience greater gains in areas like sensory regulation, fine motor skills, and executive functioning. However, consultations come with challenges. Time constraints, unclear expectations, and resistance to change can limit their effectiveness . So, how do we navigate these barriers, establish trust with staff, and ensure consultations make an impact? In this article, we’ll explore: When consults as a service are most beneficial How consultations can be used effectively as a standalone service and alongside direct therapy. Strategies for implementing consults, And a few common myths about using consults in school-based OT. When Are OT Consultations Most Beneficial? Consultations can be highly beneficial when used with fidelity, but they are not always the best fit for every situation. I have found that consults work best when: IEP goal(s) requires consistent implementation across the student’s natural environments , such as the classroom, playground, or cafeteria. This is true for more goals than you would expect - especially handwriting and typing.
The OTP and school staff have good communication skills. You don't need to be in the classroom every week or even every month, but you and the staff must find a method of communication that works for both of you (more on this in a moment).
All team members are focused on problem-solving. If all team members are open to both listening to one another and sharing possible solutions, consultations work very well! While the IEP may state that the OT(A) is providing the consult, we must remember that consultation requires a two-way knowledge transfer. The teacher's ideas and solutions are just as important as our own. We must not forget that as we consider and recommend ideas. Two Approaches to School-based OT Consultations 1. Standalone Consultations Standalone consultations are effective when the student’s needs can be met through classroom or school staff-directed services. These consultations typically focus on helping the staff embed strategies into the classroom or other environments. Examples:
Fine Motor Skills : Coaching a teacher on using an adaptive tool like a slant board, pencil grip, or squeeze scissors so that they can then help the student on a daily basis.
Social Participation : Providing ideas to a teacher to promote structured play or group activities that promote peer interactions and turn-taking skills. 2. Consultations as a Support to Direct Services I also like to utilize consultations to enhance the effectiveness of my direct therapy treatments. In this approach, consultations complement therapy sessions, ensuring that the skills taught in therapy are reinforced and adapted to real-world contexts. Examples: Reinforcing Therapy Techniques : Sharing the student's preference for holding a pencil with staff. This allows for the teacher to A) know that you looked at, and "approved" of the student's grasp, and B) helps the teacher to know when to (or when not to) intervene in the classroom.
Supporting Self-Regulation : When we find something that helps a student regulate in an OT session, sharing that with the teacher is a consultation. You and the teacher might discuss how something used in a one-on-one setting can used in the classroom. Strategies for Implementing Consultations Effective consultations don’t happen by accident—they require intentionality, clear communication, and a genuine partnership between the OT practitioner and school staff. By focusing on these key strategies, you can ensure your consultations are impactful and lead to meaningful progress for students. 1. Build Strong Relationships with Staff Take the time to build rapport with teachers, aides, and other team members by showing genuine interest in their observations and concerns. Spend time in the classroom or with the student’s team to understand the dynamics and context of the student’s environment. When staff feel valued and respected, they are more likely to implement your recommendations and share valuable insights about the student’s performance. 2. Establish Clear Expectations Begin by outlining the purpose of the consultation and how it ties to the student’s IEP goals. Also, determine with the staff member(s) how and when consultations will occur soon after the IEP to prevent uncertainty. The most challenging part of consultations is getting started. Establishing what the consultations will look like and when they will occur removes a significant barrier to getting started. 3. Tailor Communication Methods In-person consultations are great, but they are challenging to organize within the time constraints of a school day. While in-person meetings allow for real-time problem-solving and relationship-building, alternative methods can keep the process moving when time is limited. Digital tools like email or forms can help you gather observations and provide feedback. Asynchronous video tools, like Loom.com , can allow you to demonstrate a strategy tailored specifically for the student. Regardless of the method, make sure communication is personalized to the student’s needs and stays aligned with privacy laws like HIPAA and FERPA. 4. Provide Hands-On Modeling and Coaching Teachers appreciate hands-on modeling. So, when possible, demonstrate interventions in real-time, whether it’s teaching a teacher how to help the student use a slant board for handwriting or guiding an aide in supporting the student during sensory breaks. Coaching builds confidence and ensures staff understand how to integrate strategies into the student’s daily routine. Over time, gradually shift the responsibility to the staff as they become more comfortable, providing support as needed. 5. Monitor Progress and Adjust Strategies Use data collected from classroom observations, staff feedback, or student work samples to assess whether the intervention is effective. Remember, an IEP is a living and fluid document. If something is not working, there are many pieces that we can adjust to make better progress, including reconsidering services. 6. Respect Staff Time and Workload Say it with me: Teachers need more support, not more tasks. Introduce strategies that are easy to integrate into their routines and avoid overwhelming them with complex or time-intensive recommendations. Schedule consultations or check-ins at convenient times, such as during prep periods or after school. Looking for personalized support with consults? Join the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative & attend our live Q+A sessions! Inside the Collaborative, we host live Q&A Zoom sessions to support one another every month. These calls allow you to receive immediate feedback from me (Jayson) and other school-based OT practitioners who want to help you. Join the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative today to attend our next Collaboration Hour!
Get your questions answered inside the Collaborative! Myths About school-based OT Consults Misconceptions about consultations often limit their use. Let’s debunk a few common myths: Myth 1: “You must have an OT goal for a consult service.” OTs don’t need a specific goal to provide consultation services. Many practitioners support teacher-created goals by offering expertise that enhances the student’s educational experience. This is commonly known as "tagging on" to a goal Myth 2: “High school students should only get consult services.” Automatically limiting high school students to consults without considering direct services could violate IDEA’s requirement for tailored interventions. In the same way, defaulting to providing only direct services to Kindergarteners could reduce a student's access to the LRE. Myth 3: “I can’t see a student for both direct services and consult services.” Direct and consultation services can be combined. This approach is well-supported by research and enhances the carryover of skills. It's also one of my preferred service models and has greatly impacted my practice. Myth 4: “Consults are only for sensory.” As noted before, consultations are versatile and can address a variety of skills, including fine motor development, executive functioning, social participation, and more. Myth 5: " The OT/teacher is ALWAYS responsible for collecting data." I've seen this go both ways. Some say it is always the teacher's responsibility to collect data on goals, while others note that the OT must take the data. This is why clear expectations are key to success. Only you and your team can decide who will take data on individual goals. The Wrap Up
Consultations are a powerful and flexible tool in school-based OT practice. They enable us to support students in meaningful and individualized ways while maintaining their access to the Least Restrictive Environment. Whether used as a standalone service or to complement direct therapy, consultations empower staff to implement strategies that align with IEP goals and foster student progress in their natural environments. As you finish this article, be sure to have a look at the resources below. You might want to save them for another time when you need to prove the validity of school-based OT consultations. 👋 Jayson Ps. Thank you to everyone who responded to my weekly newsletter asking about this topic. There were many of you, so I hope this helps. References Gjellstad, M. (2023). Impact on Teacher Ratings & Perceptions of Efficacy of a 3:1 Model of OT Service Delivery. The American Journal of Occupational Therapy . https://doi.org/10.5014/ajot.2023.77s2-po150 . Langbecker, D., Caffery, L., Taylor, M., Theodoros, D., & Smith, A. (2019). Impact of school-based allied health therapy via telehealth on children’s speech and language, class participation and educational outcomes. Journal of Telemedicine and Telecare , 25, 559 - 565. https://doi.org/10.1177/1357633X19875848 . Trương, V., & Hodgetts, S. (2017). An exploration of teacher perceptions toward occupational therapy and occupational therapy practices: A scoping review. Journal of Occupational Therapy, Schools, & Early Intervention , 10, 121 - 136. https://doi.org/10.1080/19411243.2017.1304840 . Villeneuve, M. (2009). A critical examination of school-based occupational therapy collaborative consultation. Canadian Journal of Occupational Therapy , 76, 206 - 218. https://doi.org/10.1177/000841740907600s05 . Villeneuve, M., & Hutchinson, N. L. (2012). Enabling outcomes for students with developmental disabilities through collaborative consultation. The Qualitative Report, 17(Art. 97), 1-29. http://www.nova.edu/ssss/QR/QR17/villeneuve.pdf Wilson, A., & Harris, S. (2018). Collaborative Occupational Therapy: Teachers' Impressions of the Partnering for Change (P4C) Model. Physical & Occupational Therapy In Pediatrics , 38, 130 - 142. https://doi.org/10.1080/01942638.2017.1297988 .