OTS 152: Greatest Hits: Fostering Safe & Regulating Environments in the Classroom
- Jayson Davies
- Jun 17, 2024
- 40 min read
Updated: Dec 18, 2024
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 152 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
School-based occupational therapists wear many hats. Sometimes we treat students individually and other times we have to train the teachers in ways they can support students in the classroom.
In this greatest hits episode, Join Jayson & Jamie as they talk about supporting teachers in fostering safe and regulating environments in the classroom for students with sensory differences.
If you did not catch the original airing of this episode when it was released, or if you simply want to dive into a really good episode on how sensory processing impacts student participation, have a listen during your next walk, drive, or workout.
Listen now to learn the following objectives:
Learners will identify what is our role in addressing sensory processing in school-based OT
Learners will identify strategies that can be used to provide support to students with sensory differences in the classroom
Learners will determine what impact the sensory system has on student performance and engagement
Guests Bio
Dr. Jamie Chaves, a native of Illinois, she attended undergraduate school at Bradley University with degrees in Health Science and Psychology. She earned her Doctorate in Occupational Therapy (OTD) at Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine.
Much of her twelve year career as an occupational therapist has been rooted in sensory integration theory and practice. Learning is truly one of her passions, and she understands that collaborating with an integrated team is the key to holistic care — she offers one of many important pieces to the puzzle.
In 2020 and 2021 she co-authored The Why Behind Classroom Behaviors and Creating Sensory Smart Classrooms, respectively, in order to support and equip educators who have students with various learning needs. As a mom of three young kids, you can often find her at the beach, Legoland, or any playground around San Marcos, CA. Running is what she does to regulate and reflect.
Quotes
“The amygdala is really the center that determines what is safe and unsafe, should I be fearful of this or not fearful of this?”
- Jamie Chaves, OTD,OTR/L, SWC
“ If you keep attending to a child's regulation needs… they are gonna feel safe and they are gonna feel like they have their needs met, and that you can problem solve together and find a different pathway forward.”
- Jamie Chaves, OTD,OTR/L, SWC
“Empowering teachers to be able to ask different questions and see behaviors in a different light.”
- Jamie Chaves, OTD,OTR/L, SWC
“Instead of behavioral approach for an hour or 5 minutes for regulation, what if we spent that entire hour with the regulation approach and co-regulating with the student”
-Jayson Davies, M.A, OTR/L
Resources
Here is a sneak peek at the upcoming 3-part Sensory Summer Series in OT Schoolhouse Collaborative Community with Dr. Chaves:
👉July 24: The Intersection of Developmental, Relational, & Regulation Aspects in Sensory Integrative Processing
👉Sign up for the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative today to access the entire series (live and recorded) and join our vibrant community of OT professionals!
👉Book on Amazon: The Why Behind Behaviors
👉Book on Amazon: Creating Sensory Smart Classrooms
👉Instagram: TheWhyBehindBehaviors
*Affiliate links included help the OT School House to earn a small commission at no additional cost to you.
Episode Transcript
Expand to view the full episode transcript.
Jayson Davies
Hello and welcome back to the OT schoolhouse podcast where we empower school based occupational therapy practitioners just like you with research, knowledge and skills. My name is Jason and in this episode, we're actually revisiting one of our all time most downloaded episodes ever, Episode 87, which originally aired in November of 2021. With well over 1000 downloads this episode is one of our most popular episodes ever. However, we also realized that there are many new listeners finding the OTs golf podcast every day. And you might have missed this one, especially if you are a new grad, coming right out of occupational therapy school looking to get your first school based OT job. While nearly three years have passed since this episode originally aired, the idea of creating safe and regulating spaces within our classrooms and beyond has only further taken off. We're now seeing sensory spaces extended beyond the classroom to stadiums, airports, conference centers, and many more. So it's only fitting to bring this episode back and just kind of dive back into this conversation about safe and regulating spaces. This episode also features Dr. Jamie Chavez, who will soon play a significant role in our OT schoolhouse collaborative community. This summer, we are excited to host Dr. Chavez inside our OT schools collaborative community where she will provide a series of professional development courses geared towards supporting students with sensory processing difficulties. We are calling it our sensory summer series. I'll share a little bit more about that sensory summer series after this episode is over. So stay tuned for that and I'll also share how you can access them. But for now, I just want to let Jamie share with you about fostering safe and regulated spaces within the classroom. We're thrilled to give you another opportunity to hear her invaluable insights, especially as you may be making plans for the 2024 2025 school year. So whether you're hearing this episode for the very first time, or revisiting it, enjoy this episode with Dr. Jaime Chavez, an occupational therapist at the Center for connection and author of creating sensory smart classrooms. Let's dive in and rediscover the gems about regulating spaces.
Amazing Narrator
Hello, and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started. Here's your host, Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Hey, Jamie, welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast. How are you doing this morning?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
I'm doing really well. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, definitely. I'm excited you have a book out. Actually, you have two books out. We're talking about one today creating sensory smart classrooms. And that was written by yourself as well as Ashley Taylor. And I do want to allow you to give a moment to give a shout out to Ashley and talk a little bit about her as well. But first, I want to ask you about your career as an occupational therapist and just share a little bit of background about yourself.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Sure, I've been an occupational therapists for nine years now. And I kind of stumbled upon the profession when I was in undergrad and just fell more and more in love with it as I went through grad school, which is always a good thing. I wasn't backpedaling. And I've always been really passionate about children. And one of the areas of research I spent a lot of time on in grad school was children and orphanage like settings. And as I was doing that research, so much was coming up about sensory and motor development and how those things are impacted in orphanages and foster homes and when a child is adopted, and so that got me down the rabbit hole of sensory processing and sensory integration. And my first job was in a clinic with kids of varying developmental needs. And there were a lot of sensory motor needs. And so I just continued to learn more and more about it. And that's my area of specialty now is sensory integration.
Jayson Davies
Awesome. And so you actually do have your doctorate in OT, what was that experience? Like? Did you focus specifically on kids in the orphanage? Is that kind of where you went or sensory integration or what?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yes, my doctoral project was all on looking at occupation and the occupational performance factors in orphanage like settings and I actually did my four month apprenticeship at an orphanage in Romania.
Jayson Davies
Oh wow.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
And work with caregivers who were at that orphanage.
Jayson Davies
Wow, that must have been an amazing definitely outside of the box experience.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
It was it was one of the most challenging things I've done and also one of the richest learning experiences I've had as well.
Jayson Davies
And in Romania, then is occupational therapy, even really a thing out there. I know, as far as I don't know, I talk to people outside of the country and like occupational therapy isn't even a profession in some countries. So in Romania, is that a profession? Is that something? Is it similar but called something different? Or? Yeah.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
There is a profession called occupational therapy, and it shares the same name. But I would say they're about 50 years behind where the United States is. So they're still doing a lot of those like craft based, leather based, like leather working. Yeah, like a lot of those types of occupational therapy, tactics, and they aren't really a well recognized profession. And you don't really have to have a degree to get into the profession. It's more of like an associate's degree level. At least it was 10 years ago, I'm not exactly sure how it's progressed. Since then, I haven't really kept up to date on that. And pediatric occupational therapy was pretty much non existent. It was all working with adults with mental and developmental disabilities.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha. Okay, that was gonna be my next question. Because historically, you know, occupational therapy in America really seems like it developed based upon like a rehabilitative model. You know, after the World War One, it was really working with the armed services, right, or people that were coming back and were injured, and OT was helping them to rehabilitate and get back to, quote, unquote, normal life. So I was wondering how that would look like in Romania. So it's mostly mental health and a little bit of rehabilitation.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yes. And it's very much. It's not an integrative thing. It's not trying to integrate people back into society or back into their families. It's like these. They're basically outcasts. And they, they're these occupational therapists who are working with these people who are who would otherwise be unsupported and not really seen as contributors to society or participants in society.
Yeah, very different.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yes.
Jayson Davies
Well, thank you for sharing that. So you said that was about 10 years ago, you've been working really, primarily with pediatric population. And so where are you now then?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
I'm at the Center for connection. And Pasadena, California. I'm the executive director is Dr. Tina Payne Bryson, who's the author, co author of the whole brain, child and no drama discipline, and they have several more books out as well. And she really, she has her PhD in social work. And she really saw how what they were doing and mental health wasn't the whole picture. And there were missing pieces of the puzzle. So she started putting together a team that was more integrative and could put all the pieces together. And she saw occupational therapy as one of the biggest pieces of missing pieces of the puzzle. So she asked me to come on board, and I helped start the OT department there. And I'm at home full time with my two toddlers right now. So I'm not in the clinic full time and haven't been for the past two and a half years. But I'm hoping to get back there in the next couple of years.
Jayson Davies
Awesome. Yeah, I've heard great things about the about the center. And you know, we've had Olivia Martinez hausky on the show. And she also is a part of that center. And it's just amazing how someone who is not an occupational therapist who started this center really sees the value that occupational therapists can provide for all the people that that come into that center. So it's quite amazing that a social worker, by trade by training, is so invested in occupational therapy and sees our value. So that's just really cool. I really appreciate that. All right, so let's go ahead and dive into our real topic for today. It was great doing a little introduction. But I want to know and you have written a book about this along with your colleague, Ashley Taylor, but we want to know about how to support teachers with sensory regulation, self regulation, and fostering safe regulating environments for students with varying sensory needs. So I think a great place to start would be to start with the current problem. What are you Seen in classrooms that led you to focusing on supporting teachers within with regulating environments?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Well, one of the things is that I've seen how empowered teachers feel, even when they just have this information. So many teachers don't get information. I mean, it's not taught in their classes in school. And so they don't get information about what does it mean to be regulated? In order to learn? And what is sensory processing? And what does it mean to feel safe in your environment? So empowering teachers to be able to ask different questions and see behaviors in a different light, and also empowering teachers to examine themselves and how they might not feel safe or regulated? Or have their sensory needs met in the classroom, either? And how can they examine that to say, hey, I need to find support in this area, so I can support my students better. And also just seeing how empowered students feel when teachers are actually hearing them and responding to their needs for being regulated or their sensory needs, which are also needs for being regulated. But yeah, I've just seen the trickle down effect and how students participate more and feel more engaged in the learning process.
Gotcha. And so when you develop this book, before it was a book, were you providing trainings to teachers in some capacity.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
That's basically what this book came out of, I had started doing some trainings a handful of years ago for teachers, just during lunch hours. And then it evolved into a 10 hour course, that I put together on sensory processing. And I thought, hey, this could be a book can put this down on paper. And so that's what we did.
Wow, that's amazing. So it really just started with a little lunchtime, you know, conversations with the teachers. And it's amazing what that can turn into. I know right now, you know, it's a big focus for occupational therapy within the schools, to not just see students individually in a pullout model, you know, the more that we educate teachers on things that they can do within the classroom, the more that those teachers can then implement, just like what you're trying to do with his book. And I often like to say, you know, I could spend 30 minutes helping one student and a pullout session, or I could spend 30 minutes, I shouldn't say, or it's more of an ad. And I can spend 30 minutes working with a teacher and that teacher can then support. However many kids are in their classroom for the entire week, for the entire year. And then for the kids that they have next year, and the kids that they have the year after that, and the year after that. So knowledge is so powerful. And so I just love that you're spreading your knowledge and not keeping it all into yourself and only using it during your one on one sessions. Right. It's great that we're able to actually share that knowledge. That's so cool. So what have you found in regards to common misconceptions that teachers often have about sensory and regulating environments? I'm sure that when you're providing those trainings to them, you might get some pushback or just questions. What are some of those those questions or misconceptions you often hear?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
I think one of the things that frustrations that teachers face, and it's not just teachers, it's parents, it's us as therapists is that the sensory strategies are the regulation strategies, the CO regulation strategies, they should work all the time, every time. And that's just not true. We change from day to day, we change from hour to hour, and what works one time might not work the next time, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to work again, or that it's a failed strategy. And so having multiple tools in your tool belt is something that's really important. And going along with that setbacks are normal, like, we don't progress. None of us progress, but we certainly don't develop or learn in a linear fashion. It's kind of two or three steps forward, and then maybe one or two steps back and it's this push pull process and that's true of meeting kids regulatory needs in the classroom as well. I think also, what I've seen and we'll talk about some more of the the sensory NOAC suggestions, but I've seen a lot of classes where teachers have self or CO regulation strategies or sensory strategies in the classroom, and they allow the child five minutes or two 10 minutes or three minutes, or whatever the time limitation is. And I think there's a big misconception that regulation should happen within a confined period of time. And it could be that one day a child needs three minutes to step away, or the next day, they might need 10 or 25. And I think it's important to not put those time limitations, because ultimately, it is going to negatively impact how they're participating or how engaged they are. And if you just allow them that extra 10 or 15 minutes, even if it seems like a waste of time to you, or a waste of class, or waste of instruction, or they're missing out on a big piece. Ultimately, they're going to feel safer and more regulated in the classroom. So the next time they do come in, they are at a better place to be more focused and engaged rather than feeling like, oh, man, if I get dysregulated, I only get five minutes. And if I'm not regulated again, in five minutes, like what's going to happen, I have to pull it together. So yeah, I would say those are some of them.
Jayson Davies
That's exactly what I see too. And go on to the next step. Because I see this as well as you know, sensory processing and sensory integration. It's a difficult concept to understand. And so I wanted to ask you, like, what is kind of your go to blurb? You know, when you're explaining very quickly to a teacher, what sensory processing is, what sensory integration is, and how it will impact their students that they work with?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, my line is really sensory processing is how we make sense of our own bodies, how we make sense of what's happening in the environment, and how we relate to other people. And this all sets the foundation for our regulation, and regulation is the foundation for being engaged and being able to access your higher level cognitive skills, which are what you typically are doing in the classroom.
Jayson Davies
Great. And that actually leads right into my next question, because you and I, we haven't been in the traditional classroom and a few years, nine years, it sounds like we've both been practicing occupational therapists. And so we haven't taken an anatomy class or physio class in a while. But in your book, near the beginning chapters, I know you guys kind of dive into the anatomy a little bit, and more so about how the amygdala and how the gosh, the hypothalamus and how they all work a little bit to create a response, whether it be the parasympathetic or sympathetic nervous system. And so if you wouldn't mind just kind of explaining that route that a sensory stimuli kind of goes up through the brain a little bit and where that sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous system kicks in of it.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
So when we talk about the system, particularly involved with the amygdala, we're talking about sensory modulation, which is one of the three branches of sensory integration. And sensory modulation is really important for our sense of regulation and determining what is safe and unsafe in our environment. So when we have some sort of sensory stimulus come in, all of the sensory systems pass through the thalamus, except one, I think it's the old factory, maybe it's either the olfactory or gustatory it doesn't pass through the thalamus, which is then passed to the amygdala, the amygdala is really the center that determines what is safe and unsafe, should I be fearful of this or not fearful of this. And if the amygdala is saying, Hey, you should be fearful of this. That's really what triggers your fight flight or freeze response. If the amygdala says, Hey, this is safe, you don't need to worry, you already paid attention to it, and it's not a big deal. Then the parasympathetic nervous system kicks in and says, Hey, you can calm back down and you can carry on with your life. And the example that I like to give is if you're in a cafe and you hear a dog barking, for example, you are likely if you have a typically functioning auditory system, you're going to respond to that dog and you're going to turn and attend to it and your amygdala your brain is going to be like, hey, whoa, I need like that was a really loud sound, and I need to assess is this something I need to pay more attention to and act on? Or is it something where I can just remain calm and go back to reading my book? And so most of us This would turn and see like, oh, okay, the dogs on a leash and the owners got the dog under control, I don't have to be worried. The next time the dog barks, because our brain hope habituates to the responses, our brain isn't activated in the same way. Because our brain already knows I'm in a safe context, that dog isn't a threat to me. And we don't have to be constantly triggered. But kids who do have difficulty processing, auditory input input, if they are overstimulated, they would turn every single time and have that same sympathetic response of oh, oh, my gosh, that dogs barking and whoa, do and they couldn't focus on reading their book, they'd get a half a page read and a half an hour where we could finish a whole chapter because our, our system is regulated, and we can engage in something else.
Yeah, and the brain really is an amazing, I don't know, organism, I guess, you know, it's quite amazing what it can do, and how it uses past experiences to also help us regulate because, you know, the brain would not be very functional. If every time we got a new sensory stimuli, we weren't able to relate it to something that we had heard or seen or smelled in the past. And so it's amazing how it can work so quickly, and how it can recall those past experiences so quickly. But like you're mentioning, if the brain can't do that, then you're going to have that same experience over and over again, where it's trying to figure out, am I in a safe environment. And if it doesn't have any past experiences to reference to, you're going to kind of go through that flight, fight, flight or freeze every single time as opposed to already having a reference point. And knowing Yes, I'm in that safe in that safe spot. So pretty, it's pretty crazy how the brain works, I gotta give it that one of the words that you have really keyed on is safe. And you mentioned that students have to feel safe in their classrooms have to feel safe in the cafeteria. What do you mean by safe in relationship to a student's classroom setting?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, so really, when I'm talking about safety, and well, Ashley and I are talking about safety, particularly in our books, we're talking about nervous system regulation. And going back to the amygdala is the amygdala feeling safe and calm, is the nervous system in balance, where the sympathetic nervous system isn't taking over for the brain, and the student can feel like, they can just operate as usual through life, which is what most of us do, where we are in a calm, alert state. That's really what safety is for our nervous system. And it's really rooted in our positive, trusting relationships that we have through co regulation. It's based in a sense of control over your own body over the environment, you know, what to anticipate out of your body, you know, what to anticipate out of the environment, and you can trust in those things. And you can trust in the people who are also around you.
Yeah. And so then how do you teach teachers a way for them to facilitate that safety? Is there a specific strategy or set of strategies that you're able to help them with?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
I think the first thing is teachers understanding we call it the teacher student response cycle. And teachers understanding how their responses and how their own regulation can impact a student's regulation. And thus, a student's response is really a foundational point, because that's how we can get to a co regulation state, that if a student is feeling really frustrated about doing something and throws a book across the room, and the teacher comes up and says, Hey, you can't do that you need to go pick up that book right now, then that might trigger the student even more, and then their behavior is going to be reflective of that. But if the teacher can get into a better state of regulation, himself, approach the child and say, hey, it sounds like you're getting really frustrated. Let's try to figure out what we can do differently here. The teachers in a regulated state, the student is going to match that regulation and then they can move forward with the problem solving stage and it might not happen that fluidly. But but that's the general the general concept of it, because coal regulation is really the foundation of self regulation. And you have to have that established first. And there are so many self regulation strategies out there. But really, it's co regulation strategies, shared moments of joy, seeing songs together, making pictures together, talking about what happened over the weekend together. I think those can be really powerful co regulation experiences between teachers and students.
Yeah, that leads into another question that I have, then, based upon your response, you know, you mentioned co regulation. And I think that really is an occupational therapy term. I think that or maybe not an occupational therapy specific but more of a mental health, a medical term, per se. And I don't think it's a term that teachers would really associate with. And I don't know if they have a term for that. Maybe it's school culture, potentially. But how can an occupational therapist working in a school help teachers to understand that term co regulation? Do you think that trainings are the best way? Or do you think potentially getting into the classroom and maybe modeling it? What How can an OT who's working in a school help teachers to understand the concept of CO regulation?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
I think it's a both and I think understanding the underlying concepts around it, and how the nervous system works, and how self regulation does develop out of CO regulation. What are the zones of regulation, all of that terminology is a really important foundation. But then seeing it done and in action is also just such a powerful method of learning. I just wrote a blog post about multi sensory learning. And that's what that is, I mean, you're like experiencing, it's more of this kinesthetic experience. And then you can step in and or the teacher can step in and say, Okay, let me take over from here and see how I can do it, and model it for the student in the same way that you are modeling it for that teacher. But yeah, I think I mean, it's a process and I, as a parent to like, I use CO regulation so much as a parent. And it's a process, I know all of the things, and I've seen it modeled before, and I've done it myself before. And it still is, it just takes practice. And so just encouraging teachers to start somewhere and start with something and build off of that, knowing that it's never too late to change. And you don't have to be afraid to do things differently and think differently, because it is kind of countercultural to what a lot of the behavioral strategies are out there.
Jayson Davies
Exactly. Yeah. And that's where I was gonna go with the next question, a little off script. But talking about that behavioral change, you know, so much for the last 100 years, or more, I don't know, schools have been so focused on behavior. And we think how much progress public education has made, you know, you can't walk around and hit a kid sand with a ruler anymore, like he used to be able to do back in the 40s, or whatever it was, but there is still a very much a behavioral approach from teachers. And it can be difficult to change that mindset. And I think by bringing in that CO regulation idea, you are in a roundabout way, changing the shift from behavior to regulation. And so I think that's an important context. You know, we moved from potentially having clip charts to being more in tune with the child and meeting them where they are. And so I don't even know if this is leading to a question, honestly. But I know that's a big shift right now. But it is also a very difficult shift for teachers, because that is what they learn.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
And its not just just teachers.
Jayson Davies
True, very true
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Its Parents, it's, I mean, it's society culture as a whole. I mean, I don't it's kind of a trickle down effect. And I don't want to totally call them out. But pediatricians like that's how they're guiding parents is behavioral based strategies, because they're not getting this information in school, but they're the ones that parents pass through when their kids are toddlers, and they're first acting out. And a lot of teachers are parents and so they've gotten that information from the pediatrician and they've used that as parents and then they're enacting it in their classroom because, and it's like this huge cultural shift of like, we need to educate so many people on this to shit like it's the pediatrician. And as well as all of us therapists and teachers and parents, and but yeah, I mean, it is a really hard shift when it has been so embedded in our culture that, well, if a child keeps doing this, they're going to learn that that's okay. Well, if you keep attending to a child's regulation needs, then they're not going to keep doing it because they are going to feel safe, and they are going to feel like they have their needs met, and that you can problem solve together and find a different pathway forward.
Yeah. And earlier you talked about and this ties right into it, I wanted to talk about it when you mentioned it earlier, you talked about how sometimes a teacher or even a therapist or a parent, we say you have five minutes to go get regulated? And well, there's a problem in the whole sense with that, because you're saying, I'm going to use a behavioral approach for an hour, and then now go get regulated in five minutes? Versus what if we turn that into instead of behavioral approach for for an hour, five minutes for regulation? What if we spent that entire hour with the regulation approach and CO regulating with a student and saying, all right, yes, you're frustrated at minute, number one, but let's start there with CO regulation, not wait 60 minutes later, to let you have a break and potentially go get regulated. And so changing that mindset, we can't just change that mindset for five minutes a day or five minutes every hour, it really needs to be a whole paradigm, you know, full day, every minute of every day shift. And so I think that's very important. And that's awesome, that, that you're working on that shift with so many other people, too.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, that's a shift from what we typically do as like rewards punishment, even in terms of like, oh, well, I know, playing outside is really regulating for you, or I know this, the sensory NOAC is really regulating for you. So finish these finish writing these two sentences, and then you can go to the sensory notebook and calm down, like, no, go to the sensory, nope, and calm down, and then come back and finish writing these two sentences. And it'll go faster, the child will be in a better cognitive state, because they won't be so triggered in their lower levels of the brain that they can't access those higher levels of the brain. And that writing experience will be wired more positively in their brain rather than negatively. And, yeah, I mean, we want to, we want to hurry things along and say just write these two sentences, and then you can go off and do your thing. But really, it's the opposite that we need to be focused on. Like you're saying, it could be that the child spends 20 minutes in that sensory notebook, rather than 20 minutes at the desk struggling to write those two sentences.
Yeah, and I want to talk more about the environment in the note, but based upon what you're just saying, one of the things that OTs, I don't think have been the best at and our counterpart with behavioral lists are really good at is documenting, and documenting how things are working. And they sit there with a notepad, and they mark down every single thing that works and doesn't work. And then they're able to present these very detailed charts that show you know, progress, potentially, because the student is learning over time, hey, if I write those two sentences, I get to go to the neck a little bit faster. And so the time goes down 20 minutes, Monday, 19 minutes, Tuesday, whatever. But how do we document that doing the opposite using a co regulation approach works in a way that we can kind of show the parents as working because we see it working? But how do we document that it's working?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, I think that's a good question. And I I know that's a struggle for public health, too. When you're when you're doing these, like preventative things, how you how do you show that it's actually preventing something from happening when it doesn't actually happen. And when you're a behavior analyst, you're looking at behaviors. And that's what we're doing is OTs, to we're just looking at the behaviors in a different way. And so you can still track those behaviors and the frequency of the behavior and the duration of the behavior. But the approach to the decrease of that is so different. It's not that you are you're moving a clip or you're giving them an incentive every time like oh, he only needs five incentives now like no he only needs five minutes. of being in a sensory noc, or he only accessed a fidget toy three times today instead of eight times today. So I think we're, we're still looking at those same behaviors. And we can document those behaviors in the same way. But the way that we're getting to the decrease in behaviors is really different.
Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I want to throw this out there too, is that the way that behavioral is their structure of practice is laid out, they are given the time to actually track data. When we think about a BCBA model, they have the BCBA, who is kind of in a way, the occupational therapist per se, right, we're the person doing the evaluations. But then they have someone who is often sitting with the child for hours at a time. And they are marking down every single thing that happens. And as occupational therapists, we typically don't have that opportunity, even an occupational therapy assistant is not going to be one to sit with a child for three hours. And document every single time a student throws a book, or throws a pencil or refuses to do a task or on a different side positively says, Hey, I need to go to the sensory NOC or, Hey, I need a break. So it's kind of difficult for us to, to to take data. And I know often as school based occupational therapists, we are inclined, and we're, we're very polite about it. And we try our best to get help from a teacher or help from a classroom aide to take that data for us. But to be fair, they have their own jobs to be doing. And it is very difficult for them to also take data on that when they're trying to, I mean, they're trying to teach, that's what their job is they're trying to teach. And it's hard for them to take data. And so I do kind of wish, and I'm almost jealous of these behavioral technicians that get to spend two hours, three hours or even all day with the student. And I'm just like, man, what if I had one day that I could spend with one kid the entire day? Oh, and by the way, I'm in their natural context with the teacher there who I can also explain what I'm doing. And how you know, I get a little jealous of that, because they do have that time with the child that we just don't have, we typically have a half hour, maybe an hour, at best a week with a student. And I know there's studies going on right now to try and figure out dosages a little bit and compare that. But yeah, I just think it'd be awesome. If we could have just one opportunity to spend an entire day with a kid and how much progress we could potentially make. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
No, I think it's true. And I mean, I honestly hope the model is shifting not only for the sake of OTs, for the sake of kids, I hope that the model is shifting away from ABA. And maybe it's more time like dir floor time specialists who are spending the three hours a day in the classroom with them. And then they are getting these co regulation techniques rather than behavior techniques. And floor time specialists can also measure data really well, too. I mean, in a different way. But yeah, I just hope the model is shifting away from so much of the ABA in the classroom and more of these co regulation. Strategies. Yeah, strategy. Yeah. approaches.
Yeah. All right. I, it's so easy to get off topic when we start going down that route. But let's go back and get on topic a little bit. Talking about classroom environment, how do you support teachers and understanding that the environment can have an impact on a student's performance and the child feeling safe? We've talked a little bit about safety. And you've also discussed a little bit about the note. So maybe you can expand a little bit more than that?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Sure, well, I would say one of the most enlightening things for teachers are two of them actually, is one examining their own sensory preferences. I think a lot of people think of sensory and they think of sensory processing differences, but we all have sensory preferences. And once teachers realize like, wow, I do have these sensory preferences and there are inputs I lean into and there are inputs that I stay away from and when I can't avoid those inputs, I feel more dysregulated or if I can't lean into the inputs, I need to I feel more dysregulated like I'm a sensory being too I think that's really enlightening and helps them see all of their students in a different light and realize why someone might have different sensory needs on one day versus another day because teachers are realizing hey, I have different sensory needs on a on a daily basis as well. And also what I like to do with teachers is have them experience what different sensory processing differences might feel like. And that's something we put into our book as well. And each of the sensory chapters, we have an experience it box. And that's something that anyone reading the book could guide teachers through, just pick it up and say, Hey, teachers, we're gonna go through this experience, and it really makes teachers step back and say, Whoa, I can understand how a child would have a really hard time learning in this environment, when this is what they might be experiencing.
Absolutely. And so you've mentioned the Nook a little bit during this this hour so that we that we're talking and so what do you look for in a notebook or when teachers are trying to develop a note? What do you kind of recommend?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, so a sensory note is really a place where kids can go and access different sensory inputs that would have a calming impact on their bodies. And it's not something that every student might access. And it might not be something that students access, even on a regular basis. And they might need different like one day, they might need body breaks versus going to the sensory knock, but it is, again, a tool in a teacher's tool belt. And so I like a place that has pillows, something soft, I like heavier pillows, because they can give more proprioceptive input, calming visual input, they have some of those fish tanks, those light up fish tanks that kind of scroll around or like a lava lamp, but not one that plugs in, there's just like these things where the bubbles move in the water, something like that that's really calming, there might be some noise cancelling headphones, there might be access to music that's calming, they can put on headphones and access calming music, fidgets might be like a basket of fidgets back there. And then I usually recommend having some sort of zones of regulation chart with the green and red and blue zones, or different pictures of emotions, so that kids can communicate by pointing to different pictures, because language is a higher level cognitive skill that might drop out when kids are dysregulated. But so that they can communicate where they might be at in the process. And I think a lot of sensory notes have timers. And I really, really don't recommend having a timer in the sensory noc, I know you're asking what I do recommend, but I don't recommend putting a timer back there because it puts more pressure on the child and can make them feel anxious, which is a state of dysregulation about whether or not they're going to meet that time.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And you know, I think I already know the answer to this question. But what would you say to the teacher, the parent, the administrator, who says, well, then what's going to happen while that one student is in the nuk? And is missing out on the instruction that the teacher is providing? What's your response to that?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Well, I would say, particularly in younger years, I feel like this answer is easier, because so much of the material is repeated. A lot of the instruction, like when you're learning to tell time, you don't just learn that in one, one instruction period, like you're doing it over multiple instruction periods. So I think it's easier to say, like, Well, hey, they, they miss some of that, and they'll pick up where they left off the other day. But I think it's really important for people to see that regulation is just as important as taking in some of that cognitive information. And when kids are in a regulated state, they're going to be able to take it in faster, more likely, they'll be able to take it in faster, and they'll be able to integrate it a lot more as well. So it might be that they just pick up where they left off. And then whatever the teacher needs to fill in, in a quick, quick lesson, it might just be that they kind of pick up there. But yeah, like I said, in the younger years, there's so much repetition that happens that I feel like it can naturally be folded into how the child's learning.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and I think it's also a little it's difficult to have the conversation but it leads into understanding of sensory processing. Then when we let the parent the teacher administrator understand and let them know that that child isn't missing anything that they might have been already missing anyways, because they were dysregulated. And so I could let them sit in that chair dysregulated for 20 minutes, not learning anything. Or I could let them go to the nug and become regulated in less than 20 minutes and get back to the task and potentially miss less instruction. And who knows, while they're in the notebook regulating, they're still listening in in a little bit. And as they become more regulated, the more they might take in. And so maybe instead of missing 20 minutes, they're missing five minutes. But they're in the note for an extra five to 10 minutes really getting to the point of regulation. And so they're still keying in on what's being said, maybe they're not seeing the board where the teachers writing down one plus one or whatever, but they're still potentially taking that in auditorily. So yeah, I think it's really key that we let teachers know that part of it.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
I would agree.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. So we talked about Inuk. But what about a sensory lab or motor lab? What are your thoughts on a motor lab within a classroom? That kind of looks more like a traditional sensory integration type of gym?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, I mean, I think it's great for school sites to have that it's great, particularly for kids who have sensory processing differences. Who do I need more of that because I see it written a lot, which is true to a degree, but I see it written that kids know their own sensory needs, and they will meet their needs. And then they will like, kind of move on, which is, like I said, true for a lot of kids. But for sensory kids with sensory processing differences. That's not true. Their typical environments are not meeting their sensory needs, and they're not able to meet their own sensory needs, which is why they have sensory processing differences. So yeah, having a space to be able to access inputs that are more intense or less intense or different than what their typical environment provides, I think is really helpful. The direction that Ashley and I really push for in our books is multi sensory learning, where it's just folded into the curriculum and fold it into the classroom engagement where kids are learning more through play and through experience and through Yeah, different ways of learning and doing and being and explicitly exploring with students how some students have strengths in some areas and vulnerabilities in some areas, and then other students it's, it might be reverse, and how can those things complement each other? And how can we create a learning environment where everybody can learn, regardless of their strengths and vulnerabilities, rather than always leaning into the strengths of auditory and visual learners, which I think is what traditionally classrooms have done?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I think you're right. And again, this kind of leads right into an area that I think is not well understood within sensory integration. And that's praxis, you know, when we think of sensory we don't think of praxis is not a true sense. It's not a sense at all. It's a combination of how we act on our senses, along with the environment. And so I want to ask you a little bit about praxis and how you explain that to teachers, in the sense of learning how does praxis impact learning? And how do you explain that to teachers?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, so what I've learned through the years is that praxis is really the foundation for executive functioning skills. And I think teachers know a lot more about executive function and how executive function impacts learning. And basically, if we can't organize our bodies and organize our body movements, and how we're moving through space, then organizing materials and objects and thoughts of within the environment, is going to be even more difficult. So I think that's something that teachers can really relate to, in particular with praxis.
Jayson Davies
And then do you feel that praxis can have an impact on child safety and child regulation as well?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
It's one of the biggest factors I think I see with kids with sensory processing differences. I mean, the confidence that we gain through our movements and being able to depend on our movements and depend on our motor responses and when we can't rely on them. that it's so frustrating. And it just becomes us a space where you're like, I don't want to try anymore, or I just want to be goofy because it hides the fact that this is challenging or, and so kids with praxis, I would say are one of the biggest group with dyspraxia, I should say, are one of the biggest groups who need co regulation and who really need safe environments where they can trust what's going to happen and have things more in their sense of control and build their resilience more so that they can take steps to be more independent in some of the things that are really just so challenging and take up so much cognitive space, that they don't have anything left to actually learn the math problem, because they're taking up so much cognitive space just on figuring out how to hold a pencil.
Exactly. I agree. And, you know, that's one of the things that I find myself explaining within IEP meetings so often is just that, you know, handwriting we make it look simple. But there are so many factors that go into handwriting, and of course, praxis is one of them. And then you add on the demand of putting a sentence together, or you add on the demand of putting multiple sentences together. And you're just adding demand on demand on demand when something hasn't been perfected. And they're trying to relearn every single time how to make a letter R. And we're trying to get them to spell a word that has two R's in there, whatever it might be. And so we're just adding demands before, before the student has kind of moved beyond that motor learning or beyond that praxis ability to muscle memory. And so yeah, that's, that's very difficult. I'll never, I'll never forget this one time, I was working with a kid. And she just threw her book and her pencil on the floor, I think we were coloring and it was something very simple, like just coloring in and shapes. And she became so distraught that she just threw everything off the table onto the floor. And immediately, she felt so sad and started apologizing, and went to go pick everything up. And I was like, that's not frustration. That's not a behavior of I don't want to do this. That's a behavior of I can't do this, I need help. I don't want to do this because it's difficult for me. And I think that just shows the praxis. And I think that shows how dyspraxia like you're talking about can lead to dysregulation so yeah, I'm right there with you. I feel like praxis is 100% something that needs to be intact, in order for learning to occur in the classroom.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
And we actually wrote a whole chapter in our book, the why behind classroom behaviors, which is the first book we published, we wrote a whole chapter on handwriting because we thought, this is an area that causes so much dysregulation, not only for students, but also for teachers and helping teachers understand, like you said, what goes into handwriting and how many layers are present and that it's not a developmental skill, it's something that you truly have to learn through so many integration through the integration of so many areas of the brain. So
Jayson Davies
Yeah, so I think that's gonna kind of wrap up what we're talking about. But I do want to dive into your book a little bit. I was reading that the other day. And I really love how you guys organize the chapters, and actually want to give you a second to kind of talk about that organization a little bit, because you kind of talked about knowledge first, and then what a teacher may see and then kind of what they can do based upon that. And so I want to let you share how you and Ashley kind of developed the book and came to organize it.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, like I said, it was really developed out of the trainings that I was doing. And that just happened to be how I was organizing the trainings, and it was working for the educators who I was doing the trainings with. And they liked the flow of that. So I just kept it as the flow in the chapters and I wanted to I wanted to make it accessible, while at the same time, make it informative, and I want educators to have all of that information background but then also not have to connect all the dots as to okay, how am I see this in the classroom? How might it be impacting kids behaviors the most in the classroom? And then what might I see? And then how specifically, might I address this? And then like I said earlier, we wanted those experience, experiential learning things to be part of That picture as well so that teachers could take a step back and really feel like what sensory processing differences might be.
Jayson Davies
That's awesome. Yeah, I really love it. It's super affordable. I was telling you that earlier, I really expected this book to be more like the price of a textbook. And I love that you guys have made it right around that 29 $30 price range. So it's actually accessible for both occupational therapists, teachers, any educator, which I love about that, because the last thing anyone wants to do is go spend 120 bucks on a book. And I know that's difficult. But at the $30 price range, this is information that's so valuable, that teachers can pick up and read a chapter a week, and it's going to help them better understand their students that have sensory processing differences. So that is awesome.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
OTs, two and OTs and OTs, like OTs who are just starting off or even OTs been in the field for a while. I mean, I had OTs in mind when we were writing this as well, because we all get different levels of training.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and we all can't afford a $600 level one course from any of the sensory processing. Big. So yes, $30 You can't beat that for getting a very good start with sensory processing and understanding all of the senses from the five typical senses. And then also into vestibular proprioception. I think you even wrote a little bit about interoception in the right. Yes, yeah. So it's a great place to start. I told you, I was gonna give you an opportunity to shout out to Ashley and I completely missed that part. So if you can share with us a little bit about Ashley, how you guys came to work together?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah. So Ashley Taylor is a pH para Psy D. She has her specialty in early childhood development. She's a practicing clinical psychologist who does a lot of neuropsychological testing, I met her at the Center for connection. And we just really hit it off. And we shared a lot of clients together. And we've learned so much from each other throughout the years. And I would really highly recommend all OTs to buddy up with with somebody who does really good work on neuro psychological or psycho educational testing and really understand those assessments and how they overlap with OT, and then vice versa, being able to share as an OT how what we are seeing in the kids and students that we work with, how that might inform the neuro Psych and psycho Ed assessments as well.
Yeah, and you know, I know, if you're not within a big city, like myself, and you are in Pasadena, a sub sect of a large city, then you're often left to work on your own as occupational therapist, and you may not have another occupational therapist, within your city or sometimes within your county that you get to work with. And, you know, we have to remember that we can get knowledge from people who are not always occupational therapist, and our mentors can be people who are psychologists speech and language pathologist, physical therapists, you know, we don't always have to have an occupational therapist, I recommend you do find occupational therapist. And that's probably why you're listening to this podcast right now. But at the same time, learn from people who are outside of the field of OT, because they have so much to teach us as well. And we also have so much to teach them. And so working together using that interaction approach, we can support students from all sides, and not just from an OT lens, but from a PT speech, a teaching lens. So definitely agree with you with you there. So yeah, where can people learn a little bit more about you, if they want to buy the book? If they want to just get in touch with you? Where can they learn about you?
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, so we are on Instagram at the why behind behaviors. My personal website is Jamie Chavez OTD dot web starts.com. And then our books, the why behind classroom behaviors. And creating sensory smart classrooms are both available on Amazon.
Great, and we will be sure to link all of those in the show notes. So be sure to head on over to the show notes for this page. You can find that in your podcast player and all of the links to her website to the Instagram pages and the books will be there for you all to find super easily. So Jamie, thank you so much for coming on the show really appreciate having you on and I know this specific, this topic. The knowledge that you've shared today is going to help so many occupational therapists, I mean, occupational therapy assistants, and in turn hundreds 1000s Maybe of teachers and The students that they serve. So thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Yeah, thanks for the conversation. That was great.
Jayson Davies
Definitely take care and have a great rest of your day.
Dr. Jamie Chaves
Thanks, you too.
Bye bye. And that's going to wrap us up. Thank you again so much for joining myself and Dr. Chavez today. As I mentioned before, creating spaces for both in the classroom and beyond is something that OT practitioners can have a big part in. And we're starting to see that as actually more OT practitioners take on roles that are a little outside of that traditional occupational therapy role to create some of these spaces within public areas. If you enjoyed learning from Dr. Tavis today and would like to further learn from her experiences as an occupational therapist, I highly recommend that you check out our upcoming sensory Summer Series inside the OT schoolhouse collaborative, we'll be diving into sensory integrative services and accommodations tailored specifically for the school setting. The first course is titled The impact of sensory systems and subtypes on school participation will air inside the community on June 26. And you can catch the replay the very next day if you are a member of the OTs schoolhouse collaborative. For more details about this course the other two courses and all that we have to offer inside though to schoolhouse collaborative, visit OTSchoolHouse.com slash collab and check out the Courses section. This is your opportunity to engage directly with myself with Dr. Chavez and other experts in the field to help elevate your practice. The sooner you register, the sooner you can get direct support from me and others. Your feedback drives our community forward and if you enjoyed this episode, or have topics you'd like us to explore in the future, please reach out via our website at OTSchoolHouse.com. And if you haven't already, please don't forget to subscribe to the OTs schoolhouse podcast, so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making a difference in your schools for your students and your teachers. We will see you next time. Take care.
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