OTS 179: Say Yes to Recess: Why Movement Breaks are Critical for Student Success

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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 179 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.

Are you ready to champion one of the most essential—and overlooked—parts of the school day? In this episode, Jayson Davies dives into the impactful world of recess with special guests Morgan and Catherine, founders "Say Yes to Recess."

Listen in as they share how two passionate parents from Tennessee ignited a movement that’s reshaping school policies and even legislation around the country. This episode is packed with insights for school-based occupational therapy practitioners: you'll hear research-backed benefits of physical activity, learn strategies for advocating recess in your district, and discover why more unstructured play can positively transform classroom behavior and whole-child development. If you want practical advocacy tips and new inspiration to help your students thrive, you won’t want to miss this one!

Listen now to learn the following objectives:

1. Learners will understand the benefits of recess and the critical role it plays in supporting children's physical, emotional, and social development.
   

2. Learners will understand about systemic barriers to recess, including legislative and administrative challenges, and strategies for advocating for increased unstructured playtime in schools.
   

3. Learners will explore research-backed approaches, such as the LINC project, that highlight the positive impacts of physical activity on academic performance, classroom behavior, and overall well-being.

Guest(s) Bio

Say YES to RECESS is a passionate group of parents, grandparents, teachers, and community members united in the mission of restoring recess. Together, working to ensure that every child has access to the full benefits of recess, fostering their growth, creativity, and well-being, while also supporting and empowering teachers and school leaders. What began with three moms advocating to increase recess within their county, gradually grew into a statewide movement in Tennessee. Driven by their passion for making a positive impact, they launched the SAY YES TO RECESS nonprofit in early 2025, and now similar movements are appearing all over the country!

Quotes

“Children just learn everything through physical activity, through interactions, through play, through mimicking adult behaviors, basically."

-Morgan Garner

"Our whole mission as an organization and just even as moms on a personal level, is to kind of shift the mindset and the approach and the priorities of how we educate kids here in this country. And the shift would be towards more physical activity and less of a focus on big blocks of instructional time."

-Kathryn Truman

"We all want kids to sit still, but then if we don't give them the time to get their wiggles out, then they're gonna keep wiggling while we're trying to force feed them math, reading and language."

-Jayson Davies

Resources

👉LINC Project: Research project led by Dr. Debbie Ray at TCU focusing on the benefits of physical activity for children.

👉The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt: A book mentioned as influential during the legislative process.

👉Say Yes to Recess: The nonprofit organization advocating for increased recess time. Website:

Episode Transcript

Expand to view the full episode transcript.

Jayson Davies   

Hey there, and welcome back to the OT school house podcast. I'm your host, as always, Jayson Davies, and today we're talking about something that impacts every child in every school every single day. And of course, that also means that it impacts every teacher and many of us as well. That topic recess one of our favorite. In fact, it was my favorite TV show growing up, recess on the Gosh, it wasn't the Disney Channel. Maybe it was, but it was also on ABC on Saturday mornings. Gotta love it. Now I'm coming at this from a different angle than usual. We don't have a school based ot practitioner on to talk about the importance of recess on child development and all that good stuff. Today, instead, we're joined by two passionate parents, Morgan and Catherine, based in Tennessee, and they are the founders of the nonprofit say yes to recess. They've made it their mission to change how schools and even lawmakers think about recess, and they're making real progress. Unfortunately, as you may or may not know, many states across the United States still have no laws or legislation requiring a minimum amount of recess time for our students. However, Morgan and Catherine helped to change that in their home state of Tennessee, and their movement is now growing beyond state lines. In this episode, you'll hear how Morgan and Katherine became powerful advocates, what legislation they helped to change, and how they're working with school leaders to make recess a priority, again, not just for fun, but for learning behavior and overall well being. This is the perfect summertime episode when kids are playing freely outside of school to reflect on how we can protect that playtime once they head back to the classroom. So whether you're a school based ot practitioner who is hoping that by adding more recess time will decrease behaviors in the classroom, or maybe you are also a parent who just wants to really see your kid have more play time at school, this is the episode for you. Let's go ahead and welcome Morgan and Catherine from say yes to recess to the OT school house podcast. 

Amazing Narrator   

Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast. Your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session, 

Jayson Davies   

Kathryn and Morgan. Welcome to the OT school house podcast. Thank you so much for being here. How are you both doing today? 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Oh, thank you for having us. We're doing good. Yes. Thank you so much for having us. Absolutely. 

Jayson Davies   

And that first voice that you heard for everyone listening, that was Morgan and Catherine followed her up, and we're gonna throw this kind of first fun question over to Katherine really quickly, and I think I already know the answer to this one. But if you had the power to snap your fingers and change one thing in public education Katherine, what would that be? And why?  

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Yes, this is kind of a loaded question for us, but our whole mission as an organization, and just even just as moms on a personal level, is to kind of shift the mindset and the approach and the priorities of how we educate kids here in this country, and the shift would be towards more physical activity and less of a focus on big blocks of instructional time. And sidebar, teachers do an amazing job every day. I mean, just incredible. What they do with those instructional blocks is incredible. But we we think that, you know, an increase in physical activity and kind of again, shifting our mindset to like, what are we prioritizing? Would be just revolutionary here. We're kind of done looking across into Europe and yearning for what they have. I think a lot of parents kind of talk on the playground and say, Oh, well, in Finland or in Norway, you know, they their kids get to do such and such, and we kind of looked at each other, we're like, why not here? You know? 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, that's funny. I think recently, you know, just scrolling through one of the one of the social media platforms, something came up like saying that. I think it was Switzerland that, like, they came over and saw our methodology back in the 70s, saw that it was play based, and kind of took that, and they're still using it, despite us now kind of going really heavy on academics, and kind of a prime example of kind of what you're saying right there. It's amazing how things work out. 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Yeah, exactly they looked at our model. We were very much physical, physically focused. And now we are looking back at their model and hoping to combine everything we've learned through the years and create a change here 

Jayson Davies   

awesome. And as school based ot practitioners, we love movement, we love all things, getting sensory and all that. And so this really resonates with, I think, a lot. The people that are listening right now, the school based ot practitioners, and so I really want to dive into a little bit as we get going here, you know, kind of more maybe about a little bit of the research behind it, and where what you actually had to do to make some of these changes. But before we do that, I do kind of want to just understand what originally sparked your curiosity and concern about recess time. We kind of just touched upon that a little bit. But what led you to start asking questions about how physical activity was not being prioritized during the school day. 

Morgan Garner   

I had my first daughter. Well, I only have one daughter, my first child in 2014 and I'm a 90s kid. I grew up, you know, when the street lights came on, we had to come home, and I'd rode to the park by myself, and, you know, we would, we just were kind of feral. And I think that there's a lot of that has gotten lost, and some of it for good reason, you know, I mean, in some ways the world is not safe to just throw children out and let them fend for themselves, but at the same time, children just learn everything through physical activity, through interactions, through play, through mimicking adult behaviors, basically and and so when My daughter went to kindergarten. After going to a wonderful preschool, she would come home and she was just like a different kid. She was like a jumping bean, and had so much and she was not a hyper kid, but she would come home and she just was like, almost, I can't even explain it. It was just like, crazy. What energy, so much energy, and, like, almost frustrated, and I would be like, did you guys have PE today? Did you have recess? And a vast majority of the time she would go, Oh, we didn't get to go outside because the grass was wet. I was like, it didn't rain, or we didn't get to go outside because the playground was too muddy, and it was just so many excuses. It had to be like, perfect, 75 and sunny degrees, and it hadn't rained for four days, and it was just ridiculous. And so I started going, this is not right. And I reached out to administrators, kind of, you know, was like, Oh, we know. We hear about this a lot, not really anything we can do. We wish we could. We hear you. And I'm just not one of those people who takes no very well. I'm also Southern, so I take it really, in a nice way, but I'm just not gonna go away with a smile on my face. And so really, that's what started it for me. And then I met Rachel through kind of just talking on Facebook with our on our school Facebook page about the same thing, and I'd been looking for people for years to join in with me, because you can't do this alone. And Catherine and I had known each other before, and when she heard what we were doing, she was just like, I want to help. How can I help? And that's really what got us started. 

Jayson Davies   

Awesome, yeah, no, I totally understand and feel what you're saying. I mean, I remember back in school, I specifically remember fourth and fifth grade having a specific designated PE teacher, and we would go out to PE however many times a week to that teacher. It wasn't our regular general education teacher. It was actually a physical education teacher that rotated from school site to school site. And you know, as school based ot practitioner, I have been at many school sites now, and I don't see a hint of physical education teachers other than adaptive physical education teachers, but I know even that is rare, but like, it's really hard on the teachers to have to be focused on academics. We're telling teachers, hey, we need to focus on reading. We need to focus on math, writing. Oh, but by the way, you also have to get 100 minutes every so many weeks to do physical education, but there isn't a whole lot of testing for physical education like that's just not fair to the teachers. It makes it really hard on them. So we don't want this, but it's hard. 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Absolutely, I think you make a great point. And back to the shift in the mindset. Everyone has become very focused on the minutes that are mandated and required of these educators and we as an organization, we are just trying to start that discussion everywhere we can. Of Hey, what are we prioritizing? You know, are we prioritizing a high math score at eight years old? Or do we as parents, you know, want our children to learn some soft skills? You know, hey, I, you know, I had a fight with a friend on the playground, and I re I, you know, a teacher helped me work through that. I mean that especially I come at it from the boy mom lens with four boys, um. Yeah, but you know, girls and boys equally, across the board, need this. Of course, that's just my personal lens, but my husband and I, you know what we're prioritizing. It resonated with a lot of other parents. So this movement, I think it was truly grassroots, because we tried to just start that conversation, and now here we are. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, so, so Morgan, you said, you know, you don't take no easily. It sounds like you went to the office. Maybe you went to the district as well, but at some point you had to start digging deeper, if I'm right. And what were some of the things that the two of you started to find out as you dug a little bit deeper into recess, and maybe even PE a little bit, 

Morgan Garner   

yeah, we did. We learned the state law very quickly. We were very naive getting into this. So we thought, why is this so difficult? Why is everyone, you know, making it where we can't get more recess? I don't I just didn't understand it. I did not know what a Pandora's box we were opening. And as we dug in, we learned things like, what are actual mandates, and what are recommendations, and what people pretend are mandates that are actually recommendations. And interesting. It's very interesting. We also learned that the Tennessee has a labor law, and it's 30 minutes for every six hours of work. And our kids, well, that changed in May, but our kids were getting 15 minutes of recess daily per the law, so we were not even giving our elementary age children what we give adults based off of our labor law, which never thought about it from that way, it's yeah, it's wrong. I mean, they should be getting an hour. I mean, just yeah, definitely more than yeah for proper childhood development. And all the studies show it study after study. And so, yeah, we learned a lot about the law. And in Tennessee, the only thing that that we have been able to find, now, someone might come out here and go and please email us if we're wrong, but all we were able to find is that the two things that are law are RTI is required by law, which is an intervention, time and physical activity. The rest are recommendations.  

Jayson Davies   

That's funny that you bring that up because I've had, I've had Adapted PE teachers tell me the same thing here in California, that physical education is actually a required, the minutes are required by law, and, yeah, everything else kind of we we put tests in place that you know you need to focus on this, because there's tests about it, but technically, there isn't a lot of law around how many minutes for different other activities. So interesting. You bring that up, it's not just a California. 

Morgan Garner   

it's not and we did get some rumblings that there might be something somewhere of like a minimum for reading, but we never could nail it down. So there might be a minimum somewhat covered in there, but it's nothing close to what they're putting out there. 

Jayson Davies   

Interesting. Okay, now you started to touch upon some research that you found out there, and I don't expect you to be able to cite off three different articles, but just in general, while you're researching this a little bit, what were some of the you know, recommendations and guidelines that you were able to find? So we 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

scoured as much re research as we could. And there is a lot out there on this, and it is a resounding it is very supportive of our cause that we could find no research that said that more recess is a bad thing. So with that said, we kept coming back to a body of research out of TCU, which Dr Debbie Ray, she started the link project there, and whenever we would go into meetings with legislators or meetings with educational proponents or agencies, we would kind of look at each other and say, Okay, what can sum up what we're trying to accomplish here? Like, what's going to be our bedrock of research that we you know? What do we want in our bill language? We don't want to pull numbers out of the sky, right? So everything we found said that daily children should be getting 60 minutes of physical activity, and that is also what Dr Ray implements through her link project. And then her body of research is so great that it spans over 10 years at this point, and she also follows students in charter schools, private schools, public schools. So it's like pretty diverse, which we love, and her numbers speak for themselves. I mean, she when she implements her program, which is 15 minutes of physical activity for every hour of instruction. And it totals 60 minutes in a day within a year, usually, her students are finding much higher test scores. I I think for the most part, on average, they go up like 10 and 7% in math and reading. They're they're overall happier kids. There's qualitative data people in this realm like the quantitative, but there's a ton of qualitative. Nurse visits go down. You know, childhood obesity, you know they're they get more physically fit. The teachers are having much less disruptions in the classroom. They're just the teacher satisfaction, which I love reading her comments from teachers. Like, teachers are like we we're happier at our jobs. And I mean, what's more important, like Happy Kids, Happy Teachers. That makes for, you know, nothing's perfect, but it makes for just a better daily rhythm for everyone. Teachers are not on board with the link project, half of her, I was just gonna ask you about pushback, okay, yes, half of her reviews are teachers who were like, we wanted nothing to do with this. And now, yeah, they were like, we didn't we, but we trusted the process. And okay, you know. And they love it, and they, they, you know, they get to Catherine may have said that they get two hours back of instructional time in the classroom. That's a lot. That's a lot of time when you actually let kids do what their bodies are made to do. They're gonna focus. It's just, we all see it. So why are we not doing it? It's just it's so mind boggling. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's hard. We all want kids to sit still, but then if we don't give them the time to get their wiggles out, then they're going to keep wiggling while we're trying to force feed them math, reading and language. So yeah, totally get that. I wanted to have, I wanted to ask about one other potential pushback, and I want to get your insight on this, because I'm sure this came up at some point during the process. But the argument that, well, kids can get their play outside of school hours. Did that come up? What was I mean? What did you think about 

Morgan Garner   

that more times than I'd like to count. If I had a nickel for every time that question or that response came up, I would have a lot of nickels I and my response is, what about the latchkey kids? What about the kids who grandma picks them up from school and she maybe she's disabled and she can't go outside and watch them and supervise them? Also, let's not forget that it gets dark at 430 in Tennessee in the wintertime, I don't get home until 415 so my kids are just gonna go play out in the dark. We do not get hardly any outside time, except on the weekends in the winter, and it's terrible. I hate it. Yeah, you know, we might play out in the dark a little, but, I mean, it's just, you know, we don't really have a lot of street lights, and it's just kind of hard to be outside in the dark that I totally understand.  

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Oh, sorry. That actually reminds me of another couple comments we would get frequently, and it was, hey, you can homeschool your children, or they can go to a school that provides what, you know, a private school. Oh, wow. And, and we would have to, you know, our approach has always been very kind but direct. And we would say, Listen, we are doing this, you know, not not only for our children, but for the kids that do not necessarily, ha, have that option, and there are plenty of them, especially in the public school system. And what about them? You know, they deserve, they deserve this consideration, just like anyone else. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, definitely. All right, so we kind of put this basis for the reasons why and whatnot. And you know, I started to ask you, Morgan earlier about how, you know you said no and you had to move up. But what did that actually look like to go from talking to the administrators at your school to talking to district and then maybe even where you went from there? 

Morgan Garner   

Oh, it was very interesting. I got a crash course on politics. I apparently wasn't paying attention in my eighth grade social studies class. I'm so sorry, Mrs. Damon, but I don't, I didn't remember any of it. I didn't know who did what I mean, I had, like, a gist, but I just didn't remember. And so when we started with the principal, you know, that's easy. Everybody knows how to talk to their principal. And then it's like, Well, who do you talk to next? So we had to do research on, like, what is a director of schools? Who are the level directors? How does this umbrella work? And and so you really start to figure out who the players are. And that would be my advice to anyone going into this, figure out your local players first and take meetings with everyone. We took meetings with people who had zero power over this. But it's it's educating people. On why this is important, and then you never know, because they might go, you know what you need to talk to so and so, let me email them for you. And when you go in with kindness, we were we you. Our motto is like positive pressure. We're very kind, but we're very persistent. And we just we do not take no for an answer. It might be a no today, but that doesn't mean we're not gonna ask you for another meeting in six months after we've met with so and so and so, once you get to know those players, they're kind of the reason we went to the state, because in our county, we were getting 20 minutes, and our kids were not even outside for 20 minutes. They would go from the lunchroom, they would start the clock. They would walk back to their classroom. They would take a water break or a bathroom break, or both, put their lump lunch boxes away, and then walk to the playground. And then they'd line up three or five minutes early so they could walk back to class. And I asked my daughter's teacher one year, I said, Be honest with me, how many minutes are you guys actually getting outside, is it 10? She was like, Yeah, maybe. And that's wrong, and it's not the teacher's fault. They are. They have a gun against their head by the administrators. They put so much pressure on these teachers, and the teachers want to let the kids play. So we love our county, our our local school board has been fantastic in taking meetings with us. They really did, once we got rolling, they started working with us, and I think we just met the right people at the right time, and then things started happening. But they said like, hey, we can do 30 minutes, but that's it. If you want any more, have you thought about going to the state? And we were like, wow. And they were like, if you want more, go to the state. And we did. We asked for 60. We got 40. This is step one, year one. I mean, it's not over. We're gonna keep pushing, and hopefully at some point we will get 60 for elementary kids. But yeah, it's and then learning the players on the political state level. Oh my gosh, there's I could teach a class. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, I have gotten used to that a little bit as well. Over here in California, we're trying to do some stuff in OT and totally understand that trying to talk to anyone and everyone, and then you think you're going to be talking to someone, and you find out you're talking to their Assistant, Assistant, Assistant, or something like that. And so much fun, right? Yeah. 

Morgan Garner   

And one thing that was really interesting about the political sphere is they all kind of talk trash about each other, and not all of them, but like a lot. And if you go, okay, in your opinion, like, who's the best guy or gal? You know, who, who really needs to run this? If you ask, like, Tennessee is very heavily Republican. So we would ask the Democrats, they had nothing to lose. We're like, who should we be? Like, who do you think? And the same names kept coming up, and we're like, okay, so strategically, it makes the most sense to go to these people. So then you go to those people, and they'll either go, Ah, sorry, or we happened the one guy, actually, it was two guys who they kept mentioning. Both of them were like, Heck, yeah, this. We need more recess. And that's kind of how you do it. It's like, chess, wow, wow. You got 

Jayson Davies   

lucky. It sounds like because, like you said, you talked to, I don't know, dozens and dozens, if not 100 people. And of those 100 people is really the two people that you really needed to talk to, but you kind of had to go through all the other people to get to that 

Morgan Garner   

point. And I think it's just asking the right questions. Yeah, yeah, definitely. We 

Jayson Davies   

talked a little bit about teachers. Talked a little bit about, you know, the administrator or not the administrative process, but the legal process and figuring out who to talk to, and whatnot. Any other particular barriers, whether it be school administrators, district personnel, parents, any other people that kind of gave you a hard time going through this process. 

Morgan Garner   

Gosh, I feel like we've had an overwhelming amount of support. Wouldn't you say that? Catherine, 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

yeah, I think throughout the process, and people say to us all the time, like, I can't believe you did this so quickly. You know, people have been lobbying for things for years, but I think we remained research based, and like Morgan said, we we all agreed myself, Morgan and then Rachel Bush is the third mom. We all kind of looked at each other and just had an understanding of this isn't about our emotions. This isn't about our personal, you know, our egos, you know, we, we would go in with that same, just this united front, and then a lot of barriers crumbled. And, you know, and you, I think you're right, in a sense, we got lucky in a lot of ways. A lot of it felt very meant to be. Say, for instance, speaking of not knowing the system, our very first meeting a year ago, we just shot off these emails like, hey, this guy's a rep, this woman's a rep. Let's, let's see if they like recess. And we formed, we formed a meeting request, and it was perfectly, you know, you know, spelled out. And then we got we got a bite, and we thought, Oh, our first meeting. So we put our pink shirts on our say yes to recess. We go up there. Turns out his legislative assistant is a mom in Nashville, and she's like, I love what you guys are doing. Oh, perfect. He's not really aware that you're here, like, we show and we're like, what? And she's like, but I want you guys in to have a meeting. And we were like, thank you so much. So we go in and we sit down. He's like, who are you? Why are you wearing these shirts? And then we just, like, buckled down and just gave him our spiel. We had our link project infographic, and his wife happened to be there that day. She was like, I love this. By the end of the meeting, he's like, I'll run this bill. I mean, he wasn't really going to, but he was, like, motivated, 

Morgan Garner   

even on the Education Committee, that's how little we knew about what we were doing. He was like on some random committee that had nothing to do with education, but he knew the guy we needed to talk to, and immediately brought him in because he happened to be there that day. Oh, wow, 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

yeah, and it was really cool. A lot of full circle moments for us. But he brought in the head of the Education Committee and said, Hey, hear what they have to say. I think this is going to come down the pipe to you eventually. And in his hand he had the anxious generation the so the education committee chair had the anxious generation in his hand, and he sat down. He's like, what's this all about? And we're like, this is really the stars are aligning. And then we just kind of like that was like our catalyst. And we just said we had our first meeting under our under our belts. And we said, All right, let's go. And we we sent out 100 more meeting requests, and then we said we committed to meeting with as many people as 

Morgan Garner   

I actually feel like there were so many God winks throughout this process for us, and that was one of them. We found out later. So that rep had the anxious generation by Jonathan Haidt in his hands. We found out months later, somebody walked around that building and put that book on every single state representative and senator's desk. Wow, that day that that, I don't know if it was that day and that's his hand. I don't I have no idea, but wow. We the fact that everyone was so attuned to this, and half of them hadn't read it, but they had heard about it. Some of them just, you know, some of them listened to it, but everybody knew about it, and everybody was talking about the importance of this, and I think that's why we had so much success in such a short period of time. Again, like all the doors, you know, and something is just meant to be it's like all the doors start to open just where they need to be. And I hope to God that we can keep this going and they don't try to overturn this in the future. But we have 1000s of followers behind us now, and you'll bet we'll be marching the State Capitol in our little pink shirts, going, No, you can't take this away, but it very much felt meant to be. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, absolutely. Catherine, I think earlier, you mentioned that you asked for 60, and you got 40. The district itself said that they were willing to give you 30, maybe, but you needed to go to the state to get more than that. I think the 60 is pretty obvious. Where that comes from. You mentioned earlier in the link project and other research that 60 minutes is kind of what kids need. So what's your What are your thoughts on the 40 minutes now? Are you gonna aim for 60 in the future? Does it feel like a win? Does it feel like a half win? 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Yeah, that's a good question. We were like I said. We were so research based that we had hung our hats on 60, and Tennessee is sixth nationwide for childhood obesity. So we again, we were just primed for this. But throughout the process, all our meetings, all our advocating, we were meeting legislators who really would go right back to their constituents, go right back to their superintendents and say, and they would use the term, this is too much of a heavy lift from because, remember, our law was 15 minutes a day every. Sense. So 15 to 60, I guess you could say it's a heavy lift. I say that in a positive way. They were saying it in a negative way. But we kind of, we had to really play a little bit of chess, and we would get to know their personalities, kind of see where they were coming from. You know, a lot of them homeschooled their kids, or had their kids in private schools, or just didn't know what the law said, which, again, a ton of bills come across their desk. There's a ton of issues out there, so we had to really educate and make aware even some of the legislators, some were really on it. They're like, Oh, yes, I know, and I agree this is wrong, yeah. But at the end of the day, in order to get the majority votes that we needed in each committee that the bill traveled through, we had to take meetings and really kind of have tough discussions, like a lot of them mentioned 30 and we, we kind of all agreed as a group that we wouldn't go below 40. We would let the bill die before we went below 40. 

Jayson Davies   

Time and energy, 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

yes, but I do feel extremely proud, because we more than doubled the recess period in this state. And again, we're not done. And through education and awareness and discussions and collaboration, everyone I do believe in my heart will realize that we need a massive shift in this country, but it's going to take some time, and that's fine, and we saw that firsthand in our meetings. And one more note is a lot of local control is what's important here. So a lot of legislators say, Well, I want my principals to be able to, you know, execute what the law says in their own, you know, with their own discretion. So we respect that too. And what I like about the 40 is they can do 220s if they so choose. We really would have loved 230s again. But 220s is way better than, say, 11 minutes that they were getting previously, or we had people reach out from rural areas, inner city areas saying that they were getting recess three days a week. So we're hoping that this is going to inform a lot of people of what the law was, and then help parents feel empowered to say, hey, are my kids getting that 40 minutes a day? 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, one of my I guess I'll call it a question, was districts. I have found that I've worked with. Some districts the teachers supervise recess time. Some districts, they bring people in for literally an hour to supervise the various recesses or two hours. But every district does this a little bit different. So I can imagine, from the principal district perspective, the logistics of making this happen might be a little difficult. The actual amount that they have to then pay staff to supervise recess might get a little difficult. I guess. The question follow up here is, this has been enacted right now, like this is officially a law, it's in practice. So what are you seeing now that it's in practice? Is it being is it difficult for districts to enact does it seem to be pretty simple for them? Are some districts not following, and others are what are you seeing there? 

Morgan Garner   

Well, since we're not a year round school system, wait. School has not started yet. So school will start August early, like first, second week of August for uh, public schools. But the law went into effect. July will go into effect. July 1, okay, but it has been signed into law, if that makes sense.  

Jayson Davies   

Gotcha. So that's still to be determined. A little bit, how districts will wrap their heads around this.  

Morgan Garner   

Yeah, they saw it coming down the pipe. I think a lot of the school districts, from my understanding, is that they have people who watch the law and the bills that are coming through, and so if they see something that would apply to them in some way that might affect them. They, they kind of just have it in the back of their heads that that's, that's what's going to happen. So our big push has been, again, these are recommendations, reading, math, those numbers are recommendations in the way the Tennessee Board of Education has written these recommendations is really heavy handed. I mean, there's like 90 minutes of uninterrupted reading blocks that are recommended minimum for elementary so we're telling you're telling me you think that a kindergartener should sit down for 90 minutes minimum, and at most two and a half hours per reading. That's asinine. I have a kindergartener while he's now going rising first grader, there is no way that he would sit down for 45 minutes, much less 90. And so while I do think that this is going to be difficult logistically, when you have the mindset that. Those are mandates. Because if you look at what the Board of Education has strongly recommended, they feel like mandates. And I think a lot of schools are just not. They are so scared that their test scores are going to go down that they do not want to shave. But if they shaved a little bit of that reading. I know this sounds so counterintuitive. If they shave some of that reading, and shave some of that math, all those brain breaks that we've been taking all those disruptions and trying to bring the class back to that could easily equal 30 minutes of that 90 minute reading block, easily, if not more, yeah, let the kids come outside. So that's what we're trying to change the thought process behind it, rather than just go flippantly going, just cut it here and there. No like, these are recommendations. You do not have to, by law, do any of that, except for RtI and physical activity. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, Catherine, you look like you want to add on. 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

And we have found schools throughout Tennessee. For instance, there's a school in Crockett County, and there are administrators out there already doing this. So you know, they're saying they're looking at it, and they're understanding that they have that autonomy. You know, before we even had to pass this law, there were administrators out there saying, Okay, we're not going to do the 90 minutes. That's too much, and it's not going to be productive. You know, I want happy kids. I want happy teachers. So we have those schedules as an example, and we're really trying, like I said, to have those discussions and to spread awareness and educate. Yeah, 

Jayson Davies   

that's smart, because I just feel like you're going to have conversations at district levels, and they're going to talk about, well, if we're adding more recess, either a that means we need to cut somewhere else, or some districts might even go the slightly more difficult route and adding minutes to a school day or something like that. And it gets complicated, but it's not something that can't be overcome, like it's definitely possible. 

Morgan Garner   

I mean, that's that's kind of the beauty of the law is the autonomy for the districts. There are going to be districts that do it in a way that we probably wouldn't love. I'm sure that's going to happen. But the definite goal, and I would say the legislative intent behind this law, is to reduce minutes of core classes in order to increase learning retention and focus, because that's what the studies say. I mean, kids also need art. Kids also need music. They need PE. There is a definite benefit to PE classes, where you're in a structured environment, versus free play, like all of those things are so important for a well rounded child. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and for everyone listening really quickly, we will be sure to talk to just say, we'll be sure to link over to the link project so you can learn more about it if you want to. That research is definitely something that ot practitioners might want to have on hand. So we'll put that into the show notes. We got a few, a few minutes left, and I want to ask you, because, as you mentioned, you now have lots of parents following you, and people are reaching out to you and trying to bring this exact legislation, or at least the exact concept, to their state. So I'd love to let you both talk to us a little bit about what that means to you, and shout out some of those states that are doing their own thing now. 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Yeah, thank you. When we were mentioned by Jonathan Haidt on his platform, it did spark a lot of interest across the country, as well as news of the law being passed, and we were really excited, because I think all of us secretly hoped that that would happen. You know, we always kind of thought big picture, but here we are, and we have amazing chapters set up in six states now we have say, Yes, Theresa Texas was our first one. Texas is a big state that's going to be, you know, a big job, but we have two moms heading that up, and they are awesome. Side note, the people who are reaching out, parents, moms, dads, you know. And we have community members, we have educators. We have grandparents. You know, it's it's not just a mom movement, it's very diverse, but the people who are reaching out to us are just incredible, and they come from such a different array of backgrounds. We have former educators. We have people in corporate America, and they're just bringing so much to the table. And. I'm excited to see the organization grow. We also have say us there. Recess, New Hampshire, say us to recess. Wisconsin, sayos. Recess, Michigan and say us there. Recess, Georgia, now, so those are oh and say yes. Recess, Ohio, thanks. So those are our official chapters in talks with Kentucky, Virginia, we have people reaching out, and it's very fluid. Um, it's whenever it's the right time and whenever that movement sparks. We really encourage, encourage you to start the discussion in your area and find like minded parents. Because, yeah, we're here. We're here to talk, if anyone wants to reach out. 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I know the legislative process is very, I mean, similar yet very different and unique, because you have completely different people in every state, but it's nice that you both have succeeded, along with Rachel, you've succeeded in this, and you kind of have a little bit of a framework that you can share with the other states, and you know, share the research, share the hot topics to press on. Know what research to have on hand about your state in order to make an impact with your legislator. So I'm sure the three of you are being a huge resource to those other states and and likely many more states to come. So thank you. Kudos to you all, that's awesome. Thank you. We'll start wrapping up here, but for everyone listening here, what advice would you give them for advocating for doing something like what you're doing, and advocating for more unstructured play in their own community and school districts? Gosh, 

Morgan Garner   

start small. And of course, you know, if you want to see this big picture, we're here for anyone who wants to start a say, a Cerises chapter in their state had it, if it's not already started, and if it is, we'll connect you. But start small and find like minded parents. Learn the players. Catherine, I'm sure you have some thoughts. 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

Yes, we, the three of us, sat at my kitchen table and took a highlighter and went down through the law line by line, and we read it, and we read, inked it, and then we discussed it like Morgan said. We were like minded, and we noticed that this is an issue. And then we were all at our soccer tournaments at our little league games at our schools, and just you strike up conversations with fellow parents already that we would bring this topic up and then kind of report back to each other. And it was just overwhelming, especially the parents with kids who you know have special education requirement, they would just grab me by the shoulders like we need to do something because, you know, I work till 7pm at night, and I can't afford another option. And that was really motivating for us three whether people like that. You know that we could be the voice for 

Jayson Davies   

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, I think that's gonna wrap us up for today, but remind everyone where they can learn more about say yes to recess really quickly. I know you're on Instagram, but where else 

Morgan Garner   

we're on Instagram, Facebook. It's all so our Big Mama ship is say yes to recess. But we locally are say us to recess. Tennessee, and our website is say us to recess.com. If you're curious, if your state has a chapter, pop on there. We get messages all the time, and it's not for everybody. You know, sometimes, sometimes it takes a while to find your people. I know it took me three years to find people who wanted to do this with me, and this is not something that is overnight. And yes, we've had a lot of quick success in the last year, but we've been at this three years, and three years prior to that, I was hoping and find, like hoping to find somebody to do this with. So it's not a fast process, and it is not for the Fauci of heart. So you know, if you're gonna do it, dig in and find your people. 

Jayson Davies   

Fantastic. Well. Morgan Catherine, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you sharing about say yes to recess and best of luck with all the other the five other states and maybe even more to come in Tennessee, so thank you. We really appreciate having you here. 

Morgan Garner   

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Jayson Davies   

All right, and that wraps up episode 179 of the OT school house podcast. And I really hope you found this conversation with Morgan and Catherine from say yes to recess as inspiring as I did. I actually just looked it up in California, where I live, does have a minimum of 30 minutes, and they passed legislation in 2023 that actually teachers are not allowed to take away recess. Now I did hear from my wife, who's an administrator in California, and she actually said that they can take away recess, but I don't think they can go below that 30. Minutes, which is interesting, you know, but I don't know if you're in California and you've heard something different, let me know. But yeah, interesting to see that different states are doing different things, but as Morgan and Catherine said, there's still a lot of states that just have nothing on the books, and we would really like to see that change. I'm not part of Say Yes to recess, but I'm saying we because, as a parent, as an OT practitioner, I think we all see the value that that recess has on our students. Oftentimes, more recess can have an impact on student behavior in the classroom. And I think Morgan and Catherine said in the podcast, you could take away, or maybe you don't need as many of the brain breaks if kids had the recess that they need. So how does that fit for us as school based ot practitioners? Well, we are school employees. We can have a say in the matter, and we are uniquely positioned to advocate for policies and practices within our schools to support whole child development. It's not going to happen overnight, but we all know that recess isn't just a break, it's a need, and we can help to make that a priority by talking to our leaders, talking to our principals, our assistant principals, or maybe even at the district level. Be sure to check out the show notes over at ot schoolhouse.com/episode 179, or you can also go to say yes to recess.org to learn more about their mission, access advocacy resources and find out how you can get involved in your own school district or school as always. If this episode resonated with you, consider sharing it with a colleague or leaving a quick review. We really appreciate that every listen helps us to spread the word and support kids in the way that we know that we can. Thanks again for tuning in, and I'll see you next time on the OT school house podcast. Take care. 

Amazing Narrator   

Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed. 

Jayson Davies   

and I want to ask you one more question here. I don't know, probably both of you will have a response to this. It is in there, but I don't know if one of you had planned a response, but looking back at everything you've done in the last three years, what are you most proud of this question?

Morgan Garner   

Every time we get asked this, it gives me chills. My daughter walked the halls of the State Capitol with me. She's 10, and especially as women, I have a son too, and I'm He's younger. He doesn't quite get it as much, but I'm just, I'm so proud for her to have watched me make change, like, not just like little change this affected 1000s and 1000s of children, and for her to be able to look at that and go, You know what? If I see something that's wrong, I can do something about it, and that, to me, more than anything, is the best. 

Kathryn O'Keefe   

I think what I I love that, and I agree having, you know, all of our kids, Rachel Morgan and my children, we have 10 in between, all three of us, having them witness this has been amazing. I'm also really proud of our approach and our reputation that we've worked hard to build and maintain. We did not want to, you know, again, we wanted to be research based, not emotionally driven, and just always be kind and collaborative. So anyone that we, you know, educational agencies, lobbyists, educators, legislators, fellow parents. You know, it could get emotional, and it did sometimes get a little contentious, but we really committed to our brand being super kind and then solution focused. So I'm really, really proud of that.

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