OTS 185: Bridging the Gap in Occupational Therapy's Role in the Homeschooling Journey
- Jayson Davies
- Sep 22, 2025
- 43 min read
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 185 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
In this exciting episode, we're thrilled to welcome back Sarah Collins, a pioneer in the world of homeschooling and occupational therapy. It’s been over five years since Sarah first joined us, right at the onset of the pandemic, and so much has evolved since then.
With over 3 million students now homeschooled in the United States, understanding the intersection of occupational therapy and homeschooling has never been more crucial. Together, we get into how homeschooling has transformed, the challenges families face, and the vital role OT practitioners can play in supporting these students.
Join us as we explore the innovative ways OT can adapt to the individualized learning environments of homeschooled students, the importance of collaboration with families, and how to address their unique needs effectively.
Whether you're currently working with homeschool families or anticipate encountering students transitioning from homeschool to traditional settings, this conversation is packed with valuable insights that will enhance your practice.
Listen now to learn the following objectives:
Learners will analyze the unique culture and philosophy of homeschooling to effectively collaborate with homeschool families without questioning their educational choices
Learners will develop skills for supporting transitions between homeschool and traditional school settings, including identifying accommodations parents naturally provide at home that may need to be continued in school
Learners will identify approaches for providing occupational therapy services to homeschooled students through various delivery models (nature-based, private practice, public school services where available) while respecting the individualized nature of homeschool education
Guest(s) Bio
Sarah Collins, MSOT, OTR/L, is an occupational therapist and homeschooling consultant dedicated to helping parents align homeschooling with their children’s unique needs. Through HomeschoolOT, she provides personalized consultations, teaches month-long courses on key topics, fosters community through group and individual coaching, and speaks at national conferences. Her work empowers parents to build learning environments that support their children’s development and passions.
Quotes
"Parents are really looking for someone to collaborate with. So whether or not you're coming into a clinical setting or a nature-based setting, they wanna make sure that they're understanding so they can apply it to their homeschool day."
-Sarah M. Collins MSOT, OTR/L
"I would ask, what accommodations do you naturally provide at home? And I think you could ask that question to a parent... What naturally do you feel like you're doing to help your student that coming in here we would need to do and how do you know that?"
-Sarah M. Collins MSOT, OTR/L
“Understanding the individualized nature of homeschooling and approaching parents as educational experts can make a tremendous difference in our effectiveness as practitioners”
- Jayson Davies, M.A., OTR/L
“We as practitioners, our goal should always be to join the team."
-Sarah M. Collins MSOT, OTR/L
"When you've got a clash, then you don't have safety, when you don't have safety, then you don't have good rapport. When we don't have good rapport, we're not going to make a lot of progress.”
-Sarah M. Collins MSOT, OTR/L
Resources
👉HomeschoolOT - Sarah Collins' website focused on occupational therapy for homeschooling families
👉NHERI (National Home Education Research Institute) - Resource for homeschool statistics and research
👉HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association) - Legal support for homeschool families, provides state-by-state information
👉LearningRx - Cognitive training program owned by a homeschooling family
👉Equipping Minds - Cognitive-based therapy for visual processing, auditory processing, and working memory
👉Wilson reading program - Mentioned as a structured literacy program
👉Course for OT practitioners on working with homeschool families (available through HomeschoolOT.com)
👉Executive functioning course for teens (in development by Sarah Collins)
👉Sensory processing picture book for kids (written by Sarah Collins)
👉 Charlotte Mason Institute offers valuable resources and insights into the Charlotte Mason educational philosophy,
👉 Timbernook provides child-led experiences that challenge the senses and inspire creativity, independence, and imagination in the great outdoors.
👉 AOTA Article-Perspectives of Homeschool Educators on Occupational Therapy: A Pilot Study (AOTA)
Episode Transcript
Expand to view the episode transcript
Jayson Davies
Hello and welcome to episode 185 of the OT school house podcast. I'm your host, Jayson Davies, and today we're diving back into the world of homeschooling with our returning guest, Sarah Collins. It's been over five years since our first conversation with Sarah about occupational therapy in the homeschool setting, which happened right as the pandemic was beginning to reshape education everywhere. Since then, homeschooling has evolved significantly, with the number of homeschooled students growing to over 3 million across the United States as school based ot practitioners understanding this educational option is crucial, especially when students transition from homeschooling to traditional school settings, or also when we're tasked with assessing a homeschooled student. In this conversation, Sarah brings her unique three sided perspective as an occupational therapist, a homeschooling parent and a parent of a neurodivergent child, she'll share insights on effectively collaborating with homeschooled families, understanding their educational philosophies and adapting ot approaches to support their individualized learning environments. So whether you're currently working with Homeschool families, or you may encounter students transitioning from homeschool to public education in the near future, this conversation will provide valuable perspectives to enhance your practice. Please help me to welcome back to the OT school house podcast. Sarah Collins, let's jump in.
Amazing Narrator
Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Sarah, welcome back to the OT school health podcast. How you doing?
Sarah Collins
I am great. I'm really happy to be here, to be back, to be chatting about all the ways that homeschooling has changed and evolved. And I think it's going to be really great. Yeah, just
Jayson Davies
looking at the transcript, looking at some of the numbers we put in there, and I was looking at the date. And as you know, I was just telling you, we released that episode on May 18, 2020 and as you know, I think everyone remembers March 13, if I believe was the correct date, you know, the Day of Infamy with the pandemic officially starting and everything kind of getting shut down. So I'm assuming we must have recorded in April of 2020, which a lot has changed. Yeah, then, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Collins
I actually remember us talking about planning our episode, and I was outside weeding my garden, because I was like, I just need to be outside and by myself. So I remember that planning. I don't remember the actual recording, because the whole time is, oh yeah, such a blur.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, 100% but just like you know, the entire world, I am sure homeschooling has changed a lot. I'm sure that occupational therapy within homeschooling has changed a lot back then. So I'm excited to jump into this and learn about how you're having an impact on homeschooling, OT, how OT, homeschooling having an impact on you, and vice versa and all that good stuff. So you ready to jump in? I'm ready. Here we go. Awesome. Well, let's do it. Well, we're gonna start off with a little bit of a fun one, because I've been enjoying asking people this question, and we're going to adapt it a little bit for your situation. But if you could snap your fingers and change one thing about homeschool education and maybe occupational therapy. Within homeschool education, what would that be?
Sarah Collins
So it's actually really interesting, because I feel like, as with most things, your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness, right? And within homeschooling, we are so individualized, which is lovely, like we I can really plan out exactly what my kids need, and look at where they are now, kind of what's the next step. But my husband and I recently have been talking a lot about rites of passage. Our daughter is now going into her senior year, and this is the first time, and literally, I'm not joking, the first time that she's been like, well, you know, they have seen your sunrise, and they have senior prom, and they have senior you know, all the graduation now, there's a lot of those things that we do. In fact, their videos from from her and my son went to prom, the homeschool prom, guys. I No joke, this is the thing. They went. And their videos are amazing, because I feel like there isn't the same level of Wow. What is someone going to say about me the next day? Or think about me? You know, you don't even know anybody. They're just dancing like crazy. And they when I say they don't know anybody, that's not true. They they know a lot of people around in our community, but it's not the same people that you're with every single day, all day. You know what? What happens at prom? Is it going to be talked about the next day, but some of those other rites of passage that kind of mark the end of an era almost are not as important or not as recognized, and that can be hard for our kids. So I would say that's what I would change. I don't know how I would do it, but that's what I would do,
Jayson Davies
yeah, some sort of recognition, especially when kind of Yeah, because you don't really have elementary, middle and high school and homeschooling, it's just one spectrum all the way across all the grade levels. So yeah, unique, interesting. Well, thanks for sharing all right. Now, as I mentioned before, you were on the show episode 49 and that was, as we discussed in May, a lot has changed since then. You know, we've gone through a pandemic, a lot of other things, but yeah, give us a quick update on I guess. I guess. What I'm really looking for here is the impact that the pandemic had on homeschool, OT, on you, or homeschool education and on you as an occupational therapist in homeschool education.
Sarah Collins
So it's actually really interesting, because the pandemic on me is very different than what you know it did on even with Homeschool OT and with OT and with education as a whole, or homeschooling as a whole. When we were already homeschooling, we started homeschooling in 2017 and my husband works outside. He's on a golf course, and so literally, our days, besides the fact that we couldn't go on field trips that we did all of the time, they were the same. You know, my husband got up and left and went to work, and we did the same thing that we always do. So our days just kind of flowed right through. And in that way, I feel like we were really fortunate. You know, we weren't having this huge adjustment of, wow, everybody's home at one point, and everyone how do we do this? We just kind of went along, yeah. So yeah, she was actually lovely.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. You weren't in the middle of all the trying to teach 30 kids over a zoom class and all that fun stuff.
Sarah Collins
So, nope, nope, not even a little bit. And you know, my kids are very busy outside. Wait, I have three athletes, and they are not just small athletes, like club teams, that type of thing all over. My son just made the international team for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. So he's playing in Boston and Rhode Island. I mean, he's everywhere. So for those Now, granted, now he's 14, and that point he was, what, 910, whatever. But it was really nice to have everybody home. I'll just say I I'm kind of the opposite of the majority of people, and I really thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah, that's kind of sad, or, I don't know it's not sad. It's good, because I really enjoyed it, but I recognize it's not the majority of people's experience.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And I know you kind of stay busy within or not. I shouldn't say stay busy, but you stay updated and educated on what's going on in the homeschooling community. Did you find that that was kind of a similar sensation that other homeschooling parents, children, others kind of felt, or were there other consensuses, or was there a wide variety of how people were feeling and doing during the pandemic?
Sarah Collins
Yeah, I think it's a really wide variety. I mean, we obviously could not meet as our co ops, like we typically do, like we our families evolved into throughout the week, and then we, at that point, actually, we still had a hiking group going. Now, we stopped for a while at the beginning of the pandemic. But then, I mean, that hiking group on Fridays became upwards of 60 and 70 kids like that. We would just be outside and going and so there were obviously differences, and there was a whole lot of people who became homeschoolers throughout the pandemic. And then some of that has changed. But a lot of the homeschooling community has just grown, you know, and continue to develop. And there's more and more and more resources. I just got back. This is my conference season. So the busy season all of our homeschool conferences, which, yes, there are there, the majority, at least have one in each state, and then there are some others that are nationwide that kind of move around more nonprofit type things or for profit conferences. So I try to do six or seven every year. And so from about April through now, I'm traveling at least once or twice a month to go speak at these conferences. And so it's pretty amazing to see the number of families that are really invested in their own continuing education so that then they can be educating their children. And I know prior to 2020 because I just opened homeschool ot like immediately before the pandemic, I was homeschooling before that, but not working there, so I don't know what the conferences looked like before that, or that type of thing. I can't really compare, but I can say that there's a an amazing like the one in Virginia that I just left out over 10,000 people.
Jayson Davies
Wow, that's, that's a good, good sized conference, yeah. And so now you're going to the conferences. And I asked this question, slightly selfish. Absolutely, because I am very interested in going to education conferences to kind of share more about ot with non ot practitioners and and so I'm wondering what your take is on why are you going to these conferences? Are you going mostly as a consumer, or are you speaking, or are you trying to get the word about about homeschool OT?
Sarah Collins
Yes, I'm speaking. They are. It depends on which ones that I'm going to. Some of them have a specific special needs day, and so oftentimes that's where they'll put me, because you hear the same occupational therapist, they're like, Oh, well, you need to be on the special needs track. And sure, a lot of what I'm talking about absolutely but then I also have to do a lot of education on weight and occupation. Is anything and everything that a person you know needs and wants to do. It's how we occupy our time. So sure, if people are struggling, that is, you know, our expertise. We can analyze the activity, we can look at, you know, the person, we consider the environment. You know, we are really good at that. There's also pieces of just childhood development where, you know, we fit in beautifully. So I don't only need to be kind of pigeon holed. And so that's that's been a learning curve for me of how to advocate for homeschool OT and for occupational therapy as a whole, to come into these conferences. But typically, I'm speaking about sensory processing, oftentimes about sensory processing. For parents, you know what? If I'm the one who's overwhelmed, I've done executive functioning, risky play, handwriting, so just depending on the conference, they get to pick which one they want, and four they want, five they want. And we go from there,
Jayson Davies
very cool and kind of a follow up on that a little bit. Since you are having these interactions with other parents, slash educators, what are you hearing? What are you hearing from them, as far as their experiences, either with occupational therapy, or their desires for occupational therapy, maybe even their their words against occupational therapy. I mean, you're, you're hearing from an audience that we don't often hear from, and so I'm interested to hear what you're hearing.
Sarah Collins
So it's, it's really interesting. I either hear, oh my gosh, I've loved OT, and my child has been an OT, I hear, sometimes a mix of, what you are you gonna help me get a job? You know, the same thing that we hear, you know, randomly. Or I hear, unfortunately, quite a bit of Well, we had OT, and they told us we needed to go into the public school system. Or, you know, they did not appreciate our educational choice, and so did not continue. And that unfortunately happens frequently, which is part of the reason why I'm here. Because we need to make sure that we as OTs are respecting the decisions that homeschool families are making, and understand kind of the dynamic of what that, understand the culture, understand the many, many, many options, the theories you know, we really need to be in there and say, I'm going to come alongside of you as an occupational therapist and not direct you and tell you what you need to do.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. I definitely want to ask you more about that. I know we'll get to it about like, how students homeschool, students are getting occupational therapy. Where are those services coming from? But we'll get to that in a little bit kind of getting us into that point, I think, is that, as you mentioned, you were homeschooling your kids for a long time, but you didn't really start getting into homeschool ot until right around the pandemic was starting. So I want to get your take on just the last five years or so with starting to provide ot for home students, because I know when you did it, you're one of the first people really doing this. And so how has that evolved? What did it look like five years ago? And what's it starting? It starting to look more like over the, you know, more recent past?
Sarah Collins
Yeah, it's, it's just such a blessing and just so absolutely an honor of doing what I'm doing. And I hope that this like passion comes across, because I really, really love it. I still am the only one that is working in the way that I'm working now, when I say that, that's because there are lots and lots and lots of OTs, obviously providing direct therapy for kids, and that's not what I do. I do parent education, and I often work to make a match between OTs and families, because with our licensure and even with ot compact, is I just went to a ot a to try to figure out, Is this going to make a big difference for me? And unfortunately, I think it is. But the ability to, you know, provide ot for the homeschool community across state lines is just not a thing. So what I have to do is I'm a homeschool consultant with an OT background, and I'm pretty clear about that with you know, on my website, but also clear about it as soon as I meet with families of Listen, yes, I do have an OT background, but what I'm going to do here is work with you on your your homeschool, and if we. Need direct occupational therapy. I'm going to tell you about it and what it does and help you to find out where to get it. So the majority of what I'm doing is parent education. I have classes on executive functioning, on handwriting, on sensory processing, all for homeschool families. I do have a I'm developing right now, a course for teens that'll be like a high school half credit on executive functioning for homeschool families. I have a book that I wrote new on sensory processing, a picture book for kids. And I do kind of question answer and public speaking type things, but never will I do an evaluation? I don't do treatment, all of that.
Jayson Davies
Okay, so then I guess I would love for you just to kind of walk us through the process of what you do do, because, like you said, you're not doing a formal evaluation. You're not providing direct therapy. But what does it start to look like? You know, if a parent does approach you at one of these conferences, or find you online, and they're like, Hey, I've heard of occupational therapy. Maybe my student may or may not need ot, yeah, what does that process look
Sarah Collins
like to work with you? So I do still keep a theory in my head, so I work primarily from like, the PEO model of care, right? So when I'm working with families, I'm diving into what is your entire routine. Now, here's somewhat of a difference of homeschooling versus, you know, public schooling or brick and mortar schooling, is that, you know, for you guys, you have to think only about that education area of occupation, right? But what we get to think about within homeschooling is you're homeschooling all day, every day, all the time. It's all education. And in fact, one of the basic theories of homeschooling, one of the founders, is Charlotte Mason, or one of the theories, and she talks about homeschooling, or education, all of it being an atmosphere, a discipline and a life. So you know how you set up your home, the discipline or the rhythms and routines throughout your day, and then your lifestyle of just forever pouring in living ideas where kids are going to be able to make connections, in which case that happens from the time that you go to sleep and your ability to do so, you know, waking all the way until the next night. So when I meet with a family, I talk to them about what their rhythm now, you know, where are they having a lot of success, and where are they having a lot of struggles? And then we dive into what, why that might be. So if we're saying, here's the occupation of learning to read, you know, or learning to write, whatever we'll just take learning to read. And this is my, my struggle. So I'll often ask them a lot of questions about, what have you tried so far? We look at some of those underlying skills, performance skills. I talk about other resources, like, what about vision? What about core strength? You know, are we able to sit What about executive functioning? So I ask a lot of these questions, and then I provide resources from there. So do you need to get some outside more testing oftentimes? Do you need to know who in the homeschool community is providing tutoring near you? Okay, let's check into that. Do we need to look at a different type of curriculum? Okay, let's look at that, you know, so we I kind of dive into all of those different types of things throughout their day. Fantastic.
Jayson Davies
All right, well, we're going to continue this conversation and talk more about homeschooling and occupational or I should flip that we're talking more about occupational therapy and homeschooling, but we will do that right after this quick break, all right, and we are coming back here now. Thank you so much for sharing what it kind of looks like to work with you. I want to dive into one number, because we touched on this number back in 2020 when we talked about it, but at that point, you estimated somewhere between two and 2.5 million students were being homeschooled. Do we have any updated numbers on those?
Sarah Collins
So where I go to look for this. It's called nheri. It's the National Education Wait, hold on, national home Education Research Institute. There you go. So it's n, H E R i.com, and another spot to do this, or to look is H S L D A, which is the Home School Legal Defense Association. And that's H S L D a.com, so both of those, but they are only at populations around 2022, so the reason being is that each state has different reporting requirements, so not even every state keeps track of how many homeschoolers that there are. Here in Pennsylvania, we have to send in information to our local school, school district, but not every state has to. We have what's called high report states and low report states. So as of 2020, 22 that number was up to 3.1 million students, and it's still growing at a rate of about six Well, it's about 6% of students, and it's growing at a rate of somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5% every single year, is what the estimates are.
Jayson Davies
And so is that the current or is that same thing that estimate for percentage growth is a little delayed as well?
Sarah Collins
That's a good question. I think, yeah, I think, okay, that's just been the trend for a while. So I would think that that's what they're estimating would be accurate.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, because I remember back when we had that conversation five years ago, we kind of had a lengthy conversation about trying to figure out, okay, well, what's gonna happen? Because, as you mentioned, your homeschooling day to day didn't really change versus every single kid in public education, again, depending on what state you were in, to the degree, but every student in public education day shifted drastically, drastically for some amount of time, others longer than others, but, but yeah, we were wondering, okay, well, would there be a larger shift over to homeschooling?
Sarah Collins
And yeah, that was there was a dramatic increase in 2021 and then it decreased a little bit more back in 2022 so I think that 2021 numbers, so if we're at 3.1% as of 2022 or 3.1 million students. Sorry about that, in 2022 I want to say it was 3.6 million students in 2021 so it rose drastically, and then dropped, and then now it's kind of at a steady increase, but not as drastically.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, okay. I I think this might be a time to talk about some of the more recent developments and stuff that's just going on in the world. And one of the very hot topics right now is school vouchers. And just to be completely like upfront, my take on school vouchers, as far as from a public education, someone who lives, breathes everything public education is that for every voucher, every student that leaves a public education school, whether it be for homeschooling, charter school, private school, whatnot, that is potentially taking funds from students who might need it and can't get accepted in other placements, such as a private school. I can imagine that within the homeschooling world, this is a topic of interest, the waivers or whatnot. And I'd love to hear your kind of what you're hearing, I guess, within the homeschool world, and their thoughts on those,
Sarah Collins
yeah, it's actually really interesting, because there are some that are very pro school voucher and some that are very anti. And then there's some kind of right smack in the middle, which is actually where, where I tend to be. But so there are some families that, as far as school vouchers go, or there's even within different states, there are funding that you can get for homeschooling that is not like their specific program set up for that. Florida is one. Arkansas, one New Hampshire is one, you know, where they will even provide funding up to a certain amount of money for, you know, materials and that, and that type of thing. Now, some families could not homeschool without it, right? And some families whose kids don't fit well within the box, you know, they don't do well. You know, if we're looking at the social theory of disability, where we can think a child or a person is more or less disabled based on their environment, and if their kiddo is not fitting in in a brick and mortar school, yet they cannot afford to do any other alternative without vouchers. I can see why they would want that, right? I can see why that would make a big difference for their family. On the flip side, there's a lot of families that want no government involvement, you know. So they do not actually want this to be a thing, because where there's government involvement, there's more regulation, and not that they are opposed to safety or regulation in that way, but more of like this is different for every single home in every single family, and so it's not the same as having a standard of learning. If what we're looking at is what is our child doing now, and what is their next step? You know, there isn't necessarily a you're behind. It's how we're moving along in this child's developmental and educational needs. And so there is a struggle there. If people are to or they're living in a state that are providing these vouchers where they're like, I don't, I don't want this, because I do not want the involvement and the regulation that goes along with them,
Jayson Davies
yeah. And I can see that, you know, the part of as you were talking, one of the things that like came to mind was like, nobody likes change unless they're the ones that are implementing
the change Absolutely. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
So, okay. Now I've been in some IEPs, and I'm sure that you've heard from parents who have been in IEPs like this. And sometimes it actually happens, and sometimes it's just kind of parents talking, but it's not uncommon for a parent to say, You know what, I'm not happy with the district. I'm going to homeschool my child, and for the most case in occupation in the OT world, most of the students that we would be homeschooling or providing ot to homeschooling are students who would, you know, potentially be on an IEP 504, something like that. So I guess my question for you is, from the homeschooling perspective and parents who homeschool, what are the common reasons that they might choose to home school, and does it often revolve around distrust from a school, or are there a bunch of other reasons?
Sarah Collins
I think there's a whole lot of reasons. I mean, it's actually been really interesting going to these conferences where I'm starting to meet second and sometimes even third generation homeschoolers, so people who have grown up in this, and then they're really excited to be able to homeschool their their own kids. And you know, they can see the advantages of it for themselves and how, you know, they think and what, how they've been able to be independent in so many of their life choices, right? And so now they want to provide that for their children. So that's one reason there are, for sure, there's people like us who we just literally stumbled upon it because of the timing of a move, and that we met our great yeah, we my husband. I follow his job because, you know, I can be an OT anywhere, but he's a golf course superintendent, and so he got his job up here in Philadelphia. And we moved in April, sorry. We moved in January, and then into a rental house, and then we moved again. We're in April, to our house now, and we were gonna have to switch schools again to where we were. And then my son, at that point was in kindergarten, and they had a kindergarten center here, and so he was gonna have to move schools again. It would have been his fifth school in like a seven month period, and we were like, This is dumb at doing this. So we just started at that point and found a great community and stuck with it. So there was no like, this is definitely for us, or this is definitely not for us. It just happened and we kind of stumbled on and there's a lot of people from covid and after the pandemic that did that same thing, where they were like, what? We just stumbled into this, and it's been great. So we're going to stick with it. Now. There are also those that you're right, who have sat in an IEP meeting and they've been like, this is not working for my child, and we need to stop this. We need to find something new, and in which case, a lot of times there, when I'm working with them, I'm having to kind of dismantle some some thoughts, you know, where they're like, either really terrified of getting started with homeschooling, they're really mad at the public school system, which has happened, or they're just like, I was so frazzled, of like, this is what we have to do now, and I don't know What. So, you know, there's a there's a mix.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I believe that. I mean, it's hard to when you do things out of frustration, it can take some time to to regroup yourself and figure out, okay, well, actually, how to move forward. So I'm sure they appreciate, appreciate your support with that. All right, so let's assume that, for the sake of this conversation. Let's assume that someone was in public school and is no longer in public school, but they already had an IEP in place once they decide to go, the parent takes them out for homeschooling. What happens at that point? What happens to the IEP? What happens to the service providers? What happens to all the accommodations, goals and stuff.
Sarah Collins
So it really depends on the state. Like, for example, we here in Pennsylvania, I actually sought out. We went back into the public school system in 20, let's see, must have been 2018 for some testing for my son. And at that point we were offered partial school day, like they they would provide us with the Wilson reading program, and he was gonna get some OT. And good, I got that ot right, but for us, like we just went ahead and declined that I really wanted to get the information that an OT assessment and that all of the testing would provide, and then from there, I could do things on my own. But there are some families that can get services still through the public school system. Again, it very much depends on on the state. Our the HSLDA, again, that home Legal Defense Association, they have on their website, state by state of who will provide services within the school system and who will not. So it really depends. And they also have, you know, people that you can talk to to kind of figure out what that would look like.
Jayson Davies
Okay, so I mean, from that, I. Me kind of breaking that down, then that likely means that idea does not have anything in relationship to a school must provide services to homeschooling families, otherwise you risk losing your funding. Otherwise it might be relatively similar across all the different states, exactly, okay, and then all the states do it, do it a little differently. What are some of the various ways that you have seen students who are homeschooled receive ot services then?
Sarah Collins
So a few different ways. Number one, like, could be over. You know, I keep pointing across the street because our school is across the street. I'm like, they just go over there. It's fine. They say, I need some help, and then they cross the street. But so there are some that can go in through the public school system. There's also, you know, private practice and through the medical model. Or there are a lot of homeschool families that are searching out nature based cash services. Specifically, I talked a lot about Chartwell, mentioned Charlotte Mason earlier, but there's a lot of home education if it's based if their theory happens to do with Charlotte Mason. So much of it is based around nature and your natural environment, and so families are like, run into these nature based providers. Interesting.
Jayson Davies
That's unique. Never heard I I'm just not familiar with Charlotte Mason, because it sounds like that is probably, you know, more familiar in the homeschooling world. But I know we have had on, you know, some of the people behind barefoot OT, yes, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on in the nature based world, both in OT and in education, and a lot of them are starting to overlap a lot. I know from barefoot ot they are working with even public education schools to implement hour long programs. So very cool.
Sarah Collins
Yeah, it's really cool. And there's several around here in Pennsylvania. And then I you know Laura Park Figueroa, who's, you know, does it all over the place? Nature based therapy, who I think it's maybe merging with barefoot right now, I don't know. I don't know exactly how that works, but, okay, yes, yes, um, but that are really also familiar with homeschooling families and the homeschool community as a whole, and are offering even through co ops, but different opportunities there, but then also, you know, obviously seeing families for private and during the day.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha okay. And I totally just realized that I misspoke. I said barefoot ot several times, and I actually meant I'm more familiar with timber neck. That's the one that I meant to say. So that's why I don't know anything about the what you're talking about. Interesting, all right. But yeah, anyways, I mean, I know that there's a lot of connection between nature based services and education going on right now. That seems to be really awesome. Something that always comes back to me whenever I think about that is, I remember Steve Jobs was on an interview, you know, creator of everything Apple, and someone asked him, like, your kids most love that they get to play with all the newest gadgets and whatnot. And I this quote always comes back to me, and I'm summarizing it, of course, but he basically said, like, No, I don't let my kids play with iPads and iPhones and stuff that stuff's too simple. I want them outside doing stuff.
So absolutely,
Jayson Davies
absolutely, okay. So I asked you that question, why? Why families choose homeschooling? Because I think it's important for anyone who is going to work with parents and with kids of home, it's important for them to understand those reasonings. And I want to get your take on why that's important for ot practitioners to understand the reasons for homeschooling, the decisions behind deciding to homeschool their kid. And I love for you to talk to that just a little bit why that's so important for ot
Sarah Collins
practitioners. You know, we as practitioners, our goal should always to be to join the team. You know that we are coming alongside of families. We're coming most of the time because they are struggling, and you know what they need and want to do. And so if we all of a sudden are meeting these people are in our clients of that are struggling, and then we're like, this is what you should do, you know, or you need to go into the public school system because you need to be able to get these services, or you need to do this for socialization for your children, we're not listening. We're not coming alongside of them. We're not thinking about, Oh, what is it that you specifically need and want to do instead? We're basing it on our own experiences or our own biases of what's right and what's wrong, and that's not joining a team that's not supporting this family, and then all of a sudden you've got this clash, and when you've got a clash, then you don't have safety, you don't have safety, then you don't have a good rapport. When we don't have a rapport, we're not going to make a lot of progress. So to be able to progress. Mess with students and families as the whole then we need to be respectful of what their decisions are and try to understand it.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and earlier you mentioned that it sounds like some homeschool families have even had a little bit of a rift with some OTs. I guess I want to get your idea like from your perspective, what are parents looking for? What are they thinking about when they think about ot from a home? And I'm sure it's you can't generalize for everyone, obviously, but what are the same some of the things that you're hearing, what do parents want out of the homeschool an OT that's supporting their homeschooling?
Sarah Collins
Right? So it tends to be that a person who's gonna get ot has been going through a day today for a while where they've been struggling with one of their kiddos, and oftentimes it's not, well, I can't say it's always not the first one, but oftentimes it's not the first their first child, because, you know, their first child has been like, they're planning their school based around this, this one kiddo, and then all of a sudden, second kid, I was like, Wait, this is not working, and why? Or the second one's been so easy, right? And then they're like, but why was the first one so hard? And so then they kind of realize, all right, I probably need some support in here. And one of the biggest things that I save all the time within homeschool, OT, in fact, it's kind of my slogan, is that homeschooling is not alone schooling, because, you know, it is very different when people are going in to school on a daily basis, and you have lots of different eyes on your kids, right? And you can say, like, here's kind of the developmental progression, and here is where you're straying from that. Or I can see why there is a struggle with learning to write or whatever. Because here's, here's a reason why. You know, without that, you know, kind of these eyes looking in. It's up to parents, and so many times we as parents can accommodate for our kids needs without even thinking about we're just instinctually doing that, which, again, you know, oftentimes we can say your biggest strength is also your biggest weakness. You know, like we are accommodating our children all day, and then we're like, but wait when we're going across environments this is hard for them. So when, especially for me, when I'm talking to parents and I'm saying, Okay, this is when you need to seek out occupational therapy. Is when we're thinking, all right, across different environments, you're having the struggle like this isn't just isolated to, you know, when I'm trying to write a three o'clock in the afternoon or whatever. You know that we're having a struggle here, because then maybe we just need to adjust the time of day. But instead, you know, we're having struggles across all environments or across different occupations. And so when parents are coming in to therapy, whether it's been that maybe a doctor has told them, or another Co Op parent, or if they are experienced with ot because of other children, or things like that, then they're going to come in and be able to say, like, this is where I during our day, here's where it's showing up. And what do I do? You know, that's what their questions are. What do I do?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, it's, it's, I don't know, it's so hard when you grow up. I'm talking like from the perspective of the practitioner here, if you don't grow up in that homeschooling atmosphere, and it doesn't sound like you did, either, you really have to learn that culture. You really have to understand, you know, what those what the parent is looking for along with what the students are looking for and and sometimes it's one parent, sometimes it's both parents. There's a lot to learn there. And I guess kind of leading into this question here is like for the occupational therapy practitioner or for the parents as well. Do you find, probably more so from the parents perspective. Do you find that they appreciate a therapist or any provider that will come into the home more, that will meet them in the community, or do they prefer to go to a therapy clinic or to an outdoor area?
Sarah Collins
I don't think it's one way across the board. I do think that they're going to look more and I'm saying they but also meaning me, because I told you, you know, I took my son in to get testing, and then we made that decision here. So when I'm coming at this, I'm coming at it from a perspective of an occupational therapist, a homeschool parent and homeschool parent of a neurodivergent son. So I'm like, I'm in it, right? Yeah, there. Now I forgot where I was going, answering,
Jayson Davies
yeah, what setting or what do they appreciate in terms of location of services?
Sarah Collins
Okay, gotcha so parents are really looking for someone to collaborate with. So whether or not you're coming into. To, you know, a clinical setting or a nature based setting. They want to make sure that they're understanding so they can apply it to their homeschool day. Because, again, the homeschool day isn't from, you know, seven to three, or, you know, nine to four or whatever. It's all day, every day. And we as practitioners, that's a beautiful thing to be able to work with families on the whole day, right? And all the things that their children need to not have to segment out. But to do that, there has to be a lot of communication. So I don't know whether it matters which setting that you're in, although I do recognize that productivity wise, it's really difficult in medical based settings, and it's also difficult within a school based setting. When you're used to we collaborate, you know, at the IEP meetings and these updates and whatever, it's a totally different dynamic of a parent, like, Well, what did you do today? And what do I do at home? This is a very important thing.
Jayson Davies
Yep, Yep, absolutely. All right, we're going to take one final break, and when we come back, we're going to talk about the practical applications for ot practitioners when working with Homeschool families. All right, we're back with Sarah. We have one last final segment that we want to go through, and a few questions about the practical application of occupational therapy when working with Homeschool families. And the first question here is, what are some of the ways that ot practitioners can effectively collaborate with homeschooling families to create meaningful routines and address those unique goals that the parents have for their their families?
Sarah Collins
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, when you're first meeting with Homeschool families that you are asking questions but not questioning. You know, there's a big difference between those two things. And so if you can set up at the very beginning of like, hey, you know, I'm Sarah Collins, I'm the occupational therapist. I'm really excited to dive in with you on, you know, your rhythm of your day. And start with the tell me what that looks like. You know, tell me what your day to day, because it is so different in every single homeschool. You know, the number of children are different, the space that you have is different, which you have, you know, the curriculums you use are different. There's just not a general assumption of what a school day looks like. So you have to dive in and be ready for those types of questions and then work with them on what do you actually need and want from from me the OTs, as I was saying, that we need a lot of collaboration. I still will stay strong with that. But there are families that are like, I have three other kids. I have four other kids. I can't sit here in the office to be ready and waiting or watch the whole thing, and so they need to what's the best way to communicate with you so that we can be collaborating?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and I was gonna just kind of follow up on that, because you talked about individualized one thing that stood out to me was you talked about there being like you think about a school classroom. I can visualize three different school classrooms. One has 30 kids. One has 20 kids that are all under the age of five or six, and then one has eight kids in a, you know, is labeled as a special education classroom. I'm sure you can think of 30 different type of homeschooling classrooms, if you want to call them that, and they're just all so different, and everything is so individualized. So I like the way that you said that you need to ask questions without questioning, because you are really in the education space, their private life is separated from that public education life. But that's not the case with homeschooling.
Sarah Collins
No, it's not the case. And this question, you know, when you're saying you can picture it in your mind, it makes me giggle, because when we did take my son over for testing and they were offering us to come in partial day for the Wilson reading program. And I just asked her. I was like, Well, what does that question look or what does that classroom look like? Do you know that girlfriend literally told me the walls are blue? And I was like, oh, friend. Like, you know you cannot assume that I do literally do not know what a classroom looks like. Now, granted, I should have phrased that differently, but I wanted to know more of the dynamic, the interaction, the rhythm, the routine, and so we just had this miscommunication that I was based literally on her assumption that I wouldn't know. And so I I had my own kind of negative experience, and I am an Occupational Therapist. I have worked in schools, so it just we have to make sure that we are communicating well. So to go more into that you're right, like every single homeschool is different, and so we just have to make sure that we are asking. The right questions of, how does your environment affect your ability to participate in what you need to want to do?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And it can be tricky, I'm sure, right, especially if you're used to a school based OT or public education setting, but to a degree, the individualization of working with a homeschool family, I'm sure, has its benefits
Sarah Collins
Absolutely, saying, like, what happens to the IEP goals? I'm like, well, it's every single part of your day is individualized. You know, it's not even like, I mean, sometimes, you know, I'll keep books or whatever that my older daughter has used and passed down to my son and then passed down to my younger son, but not always. And in fact, this year, my daughter wants to, or she thought she wanted to, she turns out she doesn't, but she thought she wanted to work in the medical profession, and so for her language arts, her junior year, I heard her read books from all different disability communities, and then she was writing papers based on that. We literally created a course based on what she would want to do, and making sure that she could read from all of these different perspectives, so that she was forming not one specific narrative, but listening to voices from lots of different ones. Nobody else has taken that class. We made it up.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. So that that's gosh, so, because I think when I when I talk to OT practitioners, especially when I talk to OTPs working in the high school setting, one of my favorite things to ask them to do, or to suggest that they do, is to go ask the teacher what the curriculum is because oftentimes, if you want to figure out what goal to write, you should probably need to know what they're actually working on. What does the teacher actually care about? And you've already touched a lot about like, how communication, collaboration is so important, but when you're working with potentially several different families, I mean, in the school setting, maybe we have three teachers at each school that we work with at five schools, 15 teachers that we have to keep in mind, but that same you know, if we have a caseload of 30 kids, that's 30 different teachers, that could be 30 different curriculums. That's hard, but how can we use that individualization, even down to the curriculum, to our advantage when working with a student who's homeschooled, or maybe, do we even care what the curriculum is? But I at the end of the day, everything's individualized. How do we use that to our advantage as an OT practitioner?
Sarah Collins
Yeah, well, one, I think you need to talk to me too. So when you're going to, if you do have questions about these types of, you know, curriculums or whatever, where you're like, is this the best one for this student? I kind of make that my job to to know what is out there. And there are 1000s and 1000s and 1000s. Well, not 1000s, but probably hundreds. I mean, really, if I'm talking with a with a homeschool family, and I'm talking about their math, and I could name off six different, you know, just off the top of my head, curriculums, but not even just like, this one is, you know, in a workbook. And this one uses more manipulatives, but like, here's the theory behind them, you know? So when we are thinking about the individualization, the parents likely know the options. And so what we could be asking, instead of, like, what is the specific curriculum you could be asking, like, what is it that you're doing now within math, or what is it that you're doing now within language arts or whatever, and where are you seeing the struggles? And then we can see if that kind of tracks across different pathways or different occupations, and that individualization is awesome. And so that's where you could come to me and be like, All right, Sarah, this is the curriculum that they're using, and why is that a struggle, or why, you know, what are there other options out there that I could provide for them? And so that's one of the ways I've mentioned a lot that I work with Homeschool families, but I also work with OTs on understanding the homeschool community, but then being able to implement across, you know the areas like OTs working with Homeschool families and homeschool families working with OTs, like, I'm trying to make this beautiful
Jayson Davies
match. Yeah, do you? Do you find that there because you've mentioned that that parents will potentially go through the school, potentially go through a private practice, potentially go through maybe someone who comes out to the home or even nature based. But do you feel like there's still that connection to academics all the time, or does it sometimes actually look more like a medical clinic model type of thing? Because when I think about school. OT, I think about us really being ingrained in the education. But is that always the case with Homeschool, or is it sometimes that parents aren't necessarily looking for that?
Sarah Collins
I think it really depends and kind of on the theory of education as well. Like, there are some families who really kind of do more of a traditional, what you would think of as an educational day, like, these are my specific curriculums. This is kind of our rhythm of going through the day, like we do science and then math and whatever. There are some families that do what we call unschooling, which is where they're really following their child's lead. They're doing life together, and they're just learning in that way. They're finding out what are the children's interests, and then we're going to go that way, that route. In fact, when I was writing the course that I did for occupational therapists, I interviewed unschooler, because that is not our philosophy. And she said, I actually have the quote here. Let me put let me pull this up. Yeah, one of the things she said was, if my child, assuming they were old enough to verbalize, had some sort of delay and was referred to OT, I would ask the child if the delay was causing them distress and offer ot as a support. But I would decline if they were not internally motivated to participate. I would keep the option on the table offered again if I saw the need, and make sure they know that OT is a tool they can always access if they choose to use it to improve their condition. So this oftentimes unschoolers who aren't necessarily worried about a specific developmental progression, they would not be looking for a medical based setting, where we're going to stay, you know, in comparison, standardized testing wise, like, here we are, the developmental, you know, relationship, they're gonna be like, cool. That's nice information to know. Peace out. You know, that's, that's not the thing. But would more likely, I would think, be inclined to go to a nature based where we can encourage development more naturally outside. So it really, I think, I don't think we can say specifically what they would be looking for, but we can say that it's going to be very individualized based on the philosophy of learning, based on, you know, the resources of a family, and based on, you know, their logistics. Probably that's another
Jayson Davies
reason, yeah, yeah, in my head. I mean, there's a few different factors that really pop out. And one is like, when you're talking about public education, you have FAPE, free and appropriate public education, but if the parents don't have access to free and appropriate occupational therapy services, then, as you mentioned, resources are definitely on the in the thought process of going to OT potentially. Maybe there's insurance as a payer, potentially, but not all the time. And so that was one thing that came to my mind. The other thing was that I can imagine some parents, they're the parent, they're the teacher. My guess is there's probably also some parents that don't also want to be the therapist assistant, and they don't want the therapist giving them homework to do with the student from eight to 10am while working on math or something like that. Have you seen that too?
Sarah Collins
Yes, I've absolutely seen that. It is, you know, and this is where I was saying, there are some parents that are like, I'm really excited about this collaboration, and there's some that are like, wow, I really need to be able to drop my son off for a little bit of time and know that he's in a safe spot, and that you're working on some of the goals that I'm doing at home and but I don't necessarily think that I can build in this home exercise program and core strengthening, primitive reflexes exercises and yada yada yada, you know, like, they just don't have the capacity to be able to to add in a lot through their day. But we see that across the board, you know, with every environment,
Jayson Davies
yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, not every teacher follows through with what we give to them, either like that. That's the case when we talked last time, teletherapy was obviously booming for obvious reasons. Is that still a common option within homeschooling. Do homeschooling parents? It wasn't one of the settings that we actually when I asked you earlier, teletherapy didn't come up, but I wanted to bring it up. Is that something that homeschooling parents are using? Or do you find that they prefer teletherapy versus traditional in person therapy?
Sarah Collins
Interesting? I haven't I don't actually hear much about it, as far as, like, when I'm going to these conferences and talking to families and stuff I do. I mean, everything I do is on Zoom, but I'm not doing direct therapy, right? So I do know there are families that are remote. You know, that would be that are kind of far out. There was actually a family that I was talking to at this last conference who was saying, you know, they to get into occupational therapy. They've been on a two, two year reading list, two years, goodness gracious, and so that. And they were then looking at other places, but the next closest place was, like two hours away or something. So they were kind of looking into, what else can we do? And there are a lot of programs within the homeschooling world, as far as cognitive training learning. RX is a cognitive training program that is not remote, but is specific centers and stuff there, and they are owned by homeschooling family. Equipping minds is another one that's cognitive based therapy for visual processing, auditory processing, working memory. I've actually used that program with my own son, and that was developed a research by homeschooling family, and that you can kind of do online as well. So I don't know that people are necessarily looking for teletherapy, occupational therapy, although they might be, but I do
Jayson Davies
know resources, yeah, and it's not something that's coming up, yeah, frequently when you go to these conferences. Okay, yeah. I think we'll start to wrap up here with with one or two final questions. And earlier, I asked you about you know, what happens to an IEP when a student goes from public education to homeschooling? But let's flip that around and assume that a student who has always been homeschooled maybe doesn't have an IEP, but is coming into the school system and maybe has a diagnosis or known learning disability. What advice do you have for the occupational therapy practitioners?
Sarah Collins
Oh, that's really good one, because I want you, whoever you are, I'm talking to you as if you're going to treat my son. We just, I we, I think that we were talking before on this, before we started recording. But my son, next year is going to go to the Philadelphia hockey Academy. So he will no longer be homeschooled. So he is actually the hockey Academy is part has CCA, which is the Commonwealth Charter Academy. So he'll be doing cyber school during the day along with his hockey training. So I've just been working on, what am I going to do to get in to the setting right? And how are we going to take some of these accommodations that I just naturally provide within our home and have it fit into this, you know, educational system? And so as I've been asking myself these questions, one of the biggest things was like, what accommodations do you naturally provide at home? And I think you could ask that question to a parent like for me, he has never really had to do well. He has had to do standardized testing, but this year, I gave him two, I gave him an untimed, and I gave him a timed so that I could have some documentation right to turn in, and the scores were dramatically different. And so I've had to ask, you know, this year, I want to have you know that accommodation for him once we get in, just because I know he visually and auditorily, he just needs more time to process. So I have kind of a paper trail of that, but not every family would. So I think I would ask, you know, what naturally do you feel like you're doing to help your student that coming in here we would need to do? And how do you know that?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, that's a good I mean. And to be honest, we should be asking that of all of our kids, no matter what, of all the parents. But yeah, I think it's something really to lean in on, though, if you know that the child is coming from a homeschooling family, to know that not only is the parent the expert parent in this case, they're also the expert educator in this space, and to really lean on them for a lot of educational supports that they've been providing. So great response. Cool. All right, to wrap this up, you've mentioned already, actually a few times, about a course that you were working on and building out for a therapist. It sounds like I'd love for you to share a little bit about that and kind of what your hopes and dreams and aspirations, and who's it actually for? Yeah.
Sarah Collins
So I did. I wrote a course for occupational therapists on homeschooling. It's four modules, the first one being kind of, what are some of these facts, statistics, some of the stuff that we dove into today, but also dealing more into even some of the myths and bias that people have against homeschoolers, even down to, like, socioeconomic status and things like that. So we really dive deep into what that looks like. I talk a lot more about the homeschooling theories. You know, we mentioned here a little bit about Charlotte Mason, about unschooling. But even within that, I was saying, you know, unschoolers who are going to come, if you start talking developmentally to them, that's going to be a. Total different ball game than if you're talking about, you know, living educations and your whole atmosphere of life. So the theory actually plays in to how we could interact well with homeschooling families. The third is about research on homeschooling, which there's a lot but and like where OTs can come in, but then the fourth is more on research of occupational therapy and homeschooling, which there's, like one article, which literally we mentioned the last time we were together, and there hasn't been another one. So now there has, I have seen some doctoral dissertations and things like that coming out. So those are in there. But there is not, not much, as far as research on occupational therapy and homeschooling. So that is, you know, the fourth and final module, and then kind of putting it all together of, how can you really come alongside of homeschooling families to be sure that you are meeting their needs and, you know, not scaring them away. Representing our profession really well as well. The whole goal of it was because I was getting so many parents who were coming and were like, you know, the OT is asking me this and this and this, and I'm not going back, and that is not the representation that we want our for OTs. It's also not helpful to homeschool families. And I think the majority of us in this profession are doing this because we want to be able to support families. So let's figure out the best ways to do that.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like you found a very, a very unique niche, niche, niche, niche, however you want to define it, say it, but it sounds like, it sounds like you have found a place where you really fit into both the OT world as well as the homeschool world. And it sounds like you're helping others to do that as well. And yeah, I think we talked about this last time, right? It's not a huge niche, but there's plenty of space for it, and it and it sounds like you're doing a lot to help them out. So help OTs out, to help homeschool parents out and kids. So that's really cool. That's all at homeschool ot.com right? Yep, homeschool, ot.com you got it awesome. Well, we will be sure to add that to the show notes, as well as that article that has not changed. That one article, yes, yes, yes, we will add that article as well as any other resources or all the other resources that were mentioned during this episode over on the show notes. So be sure to check that out and check out Sarah as well as her course over at homeschool. Ot.com, Sarah, thank you so much for coming back on five years later and sharing all things homeschool. OT, appreciate it.
Thank you so much. Maybe I'll see you again in five years.
Jayson Davies
Let's do it. Set a date. All right, I'll talk to you later. Thank you. All right, that wraps up episode 185 of the OT school house podcast. I'd like to sincerely thank Sarah for returning to the show and sharing her valuable insights on the evolving world of homeschooling and occupational therapy. She has really been a leader within the world of homeschooling and occupational therapy, and I just can't wait to see how she continues to evolve the way that ot practitioners support homeschooled students. Her perspective on both OT and homeschooling gives a very unique window in how we can better support these students and students, and again, I just can't wait to learn more as she learns more and shares more with us, as we've learned today. Understanding the individualized nature of homeschooling and approaching parents as educational experts can make a tremendous difference in our effectiveness as practitioners, whether we're working directly with the students or helping them transition to a traditional school setting. Now, if you enjoyed this episode and want to dive deeper into the Royal School Based ot practice, I invite you to check out the OT school house collaborative. The OT school house collaborative is where school based ot practitioners can access all the resources, all the professional development opportunities and direct membership from myself. We have so much inside the collaborative, and I would love to have you join us. There you can visit otschoolhouse.com/collab that's C, O, L, L, A, B after ot schoolhouse.com to learn more and join our community of dedicated school based ot practitioners. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll catch you in the next episode. Until then, take care.
Amazing Narrator
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