OTS 194: Supporting Teachers First and How Coaching Creates Lasting Impact for Students
- Jayson Davies
- 3 days ago
- 46 min read
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 194 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
Supporting teachers can be one of the most powerful ways to create lasting change for students—but it requires a shift in how we view our role as school-based OTs. In this episode, Dr. Ellen Cullen shares her groundbreaking doctoral capstone work on occupation-based coaching, where she treated teachers as clients and used MOHO to support their self-efficacy and align their practices with their professional values.
Ellen reveals how experienced teachers often don't lack competence—they lack alignment between what they value and what the system demands of them. By becoming co-designers rather than experts, OTs can empower teachers to reclaim their autonomy, reduce burnout, and implement sustainable strategies that truly benefit students.
Whether you're struggling to make time for consultation or wondering how to make your impact last beyond the therapy session, this episode offers practical, immediately actionable strategies. Listen now to discover how supporting teachers isn't just good practice—it's essential to creating meaningful change for the students we serve.
Learning Objectives
Learners will understand the power dynamics in classroom consultation and how to approach teachers as occupational beings
Learners will identify how to apply occupation-based coaching models (using frameworks like MOHO and IRM) to support teacher self-efficacy
Learners will understand practical strategies for integrating teacher support into existing service delivery models
Guest Bio
Ellen M. Cullen, OTD, MS, OTR/L, BCP
Ellen Cullen is a school-based occupational therapist who is passionate about creating systems-level change that supports teachers, students, and classrooms as interconnected ecosystems. She holds an MS in Human Development from the University of Rochester and a post-professional doctorate in occupational therapy from Bay Path University.
Ellen blends occupational formulation, the Model of Human Occupation, and the Intentional Relationship Model with design thinking to co-create practical, context-driven solutions alongside educators. She owns a private practice, providing pediatric occupational therapy and CBIT for individuals with tic disorders across the lifespan.
Ellen is also the founder of JustGrowPlay, LLC, where she focuses on innovation and design, developing products and consulting on environments that enhance play, learning, and occupational engagement.
Quotes
"Teacher self-efficacy is a type of self-efficacy wherein teachers are strongly affected by their beliefs about the potential, their potential to impact student learning... It can also affect teacher stress levels and their desire to stay in the field. And as we know, teacher burnout is a huge issue." -Ellen M. Cullen, OTD, MS, OTR/L, BCP
“OTs being trained in more of a medical model enter schools as outsiders… we don’t always know where we stand with a particular teacher.”
-Ellen M. Cullen, OTD, MS, OTR/L, BCP
“We are systems thinkers… we don’t just look at tasks, we look at motivation and the reason behind why someone does the task.”
-Ellen Marie Cullen, OTD, OTR/L
“If you love your teachers — in a real, human way — and co-design with them, that’s a powerful model for change.”
-Ellen Marie Cullen, OTD, OTR/L
“Rather than trying to go in with power, you’re going in with open-mindedness and letting the teacher have the power.”
-Jayson Davies, MA, OTR/L
Resources
Episode Transcript
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Ellen Cullen
I think this is why it's really important to distinguish between consultation and coaching in terms of how we implement that and what that looks like. We can look at consultation as being more expert driven, so the OTs are the ones providing the solutions to problems, whereas in coaching, we're asking the adults that we're coaching to find their own solutions to the problem.
Jayson Davies
Hey there, and welcome to episode 194 of the OT school house podcast. It's great to have you. What you just heard was Dr Ellen Cullen breaking down the difference between consultation and coaching. And now, if you're thinking, Okay, I kind of get it, but how does coaching fit into school based occupational therapy, you are not alone. The distinction between being the expert who provides solutions and being a facilitator who asks powerful questions isn't always clear cut, and implementing this shift in the day to day reality of a school setting can feel overwhelming. But here's the thing, in OT school, we were trained in a medical model where we're expected to be the expert, we assess, we diagnose, we intervene, but when we step into the schools, we're entering someone else's domain, and the power dynamics are not the same. Teachers hold the key to implementation, and if we don't bring them along as partners, our best strategies often fall flat. Today, I'm joined by Dr Ellen Cullen, a fellow school based occupational therapist and board certified pediatric specialist who has spent years exploring a powerful yet underutilized approach in school based practice treating teachers as clients through a coaching model. Ellen's doctoral Capstone challenged the traditional consultation model by using occupation based coaching to support teacher self efficacy, particularly with English language learners. But here's the twist, her research revealed that experienced teachers didn't lack confidence in their teaching. What they lacked was alignment between their values and the demands of the system. During this conversation, Ellen breaks down how school based OTs can shift from being the expert in the room to becoming a co designer and partner and guide empowering teachers to reclaim their autonomy, reduce burnout and create lasting change for students. We'll talk about power dynamics, the difference between consultation and coaching, and how you can start implementing this approach right away, even within the constraints of a caseload model. If you've ever felt like your impact fades the moment you leave the classroom. This conversation is for you. Let's dive in.
Amazing Narrator
Hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies. Class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Ellen, welcome to the OT school house podcast. How are you doing today?
Ellen Cullen
I'm doing great, Jayson, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely this is going to be fun one, as I alluded to in my intro earlier, a lot of school based ot practitioners have difficulty with really supporting teachers. You know, we are pretty darn good at working one on one with a student, or maybe even in a small group with a student, but we have a lot of difficulty when it either comes to a consulting with a teacher directly away from the students, or working kind of even collaboratively with a teacher or two. And so I'm really excited to jump into that and to kind of get started, I want to ask you, why do you think that is the case? Why is it that so many ot practitioners, you know, we have advanced degrees, we really learn about people, the psychology of people, and all the different aspects of people, but we have so much trouble when it comes to working with teachers. Why do you think that is right?
Ellen Cullen
Well, that's a great question, and I have explored that in my own mind as well. I feel that OTs being trained in more of a medical model, maybe more of that clinical mindset. Enter schools as outsiders, so to speak. So when we meet a teacher or try to affect change within a classroom on behalf of a student, we almost feel like we're the outsider, or we can approach it as we're the expert. So we want to make sure that a teacher is receptive to what we have to say. So we want that relationship to be strong. However, we don't always know where we stand with a particular teacher, so developing that relationship can be really important to helping us feel welcome and entering that classroom space, I think when we enter that classroom space, it's almost akin to a family entering someone's home where the teacher is a caregiver taking care of the kids in that classroom. And I remember working in home care, and having that same feeling stepping into someone's home and really making sure before I entered that home that I was aware of the power differentials that could be part of that setting and part of that system. So we are trained in more of a medical model. We in our training. We don't get as much training as how to work in that educational. So working and collaborating with teachers is something that still is somewhat unfamiliar, I would think, to most OTs, unless we have a lot of experience working with teachers and feeling comfortable in that setting. And then I think teachers might have different experiences working with different OTs, and then they can come to that relationship with different experiences as well.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, one thing that you really mentioned right there was, like that power dynamic, and it sounds like you learned about that from maybe your was it early intervention experience or home health model?
Ellen Cullen
Yeah, so I worked in both early intervention as well as working with adults in home care, and I learned how when you approach someone's home, I found myself having to take a deep breath and really check my ego at the door, check all the medical model at the door, and just open myself to a human with another human being, and really entering that space as a listener.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And so now kind of, how did you start to, I don't want to go into the how you applied it yet, but I guess, kind of, what are some of those, those dynamics, power dynamics that apply to school based occupational therapy. As you got into school based occupational therapy, have you been able to actually identify, I guess, what those power dynamics are, or at least kind of to, I don't even know how to say this, but like the things that we need to think about as school based ot practitioners. What are those power dynamics in the classroom going on?
Ellen Cullen
Sure, I my experience working with teachers has been so enriching for me, so I've really gotten an inside look at what a teacher's day is like, and what thoughts go through their head. And I can almost tell now when they look at me what kind of day they're having. So they're either looking at me like, Oh no, you're here, or oh no, I wasn't ready for you. Or Oh no, you're going to judge me. Or Oh no, what do I need to do next? What? Or what aren't I doing right? Am I another person you know? Is she gonna judge me, or do I? Do I trust her? Do I feel safe with her? I think trust and safety are huge dynamics in a relationship. So, you know, I can look at a teacher and they're either gonna, you know, sometimes they look at me like, help me. Ellen, I just need to go the bathroom. I just need to leave for a second, or it's a great day. We everything's clicking. Everything's great. Come on in. So there's, am I being welcomed, or am I like? It's not a good day. Can you just take Johnny today? So I am ready for anything.
Jayson Davies
So in that sense, you're what you're kind of explaining is, what I'm hearing is that rather than you trying to go in there with power, you're going in there with absolutely open mindedness in terms of letting the teacher have the power
Ellen Cullen
absolutely and it's easy to walk in with my agenda and my therapy plan and not check that at the door. Have it? I you know, I think as OTs, school based OTs, we have our plans, we have our goals. We're busy, just like everybody else, but we also have to be very mindful of the teacher's well being, what's going on in her classroom, her dynamics. Maybe she just met with an administrator. Maybe the tone that she's using isn't necessarily targeted towards us, but just something within the system itself she's experiencing, or a pressure coming from what happened before work, or something that's happening within the classroom. So I'm always aware to, like, check any preconceived notions prior to entering a classroom and prior to entering that relationship,
Jayson Davies
yeah, and I, I get that it is also much harder said than done, because, as you mentioned, right? We go in with our plan, right? Like we know we need to see Johnny. We need we know that we need to see him for 30 minutes, and then we get in there and the teacher is just flustered. Maybe Johnny, or maybe somebody else is doing something in the classroom they're not supposed to be and the teacher has to take care of that. And there just really are a lot of things going on in the classroom at all times. I guess, kind of going back to that power dynamic. We address that power between us and the OT per se, or sorry us and the teacher per se, about kind of having to have this openness, maybe taking a step back when it comes to to the power that we have. But what are some other power dynamics in the classroom that we really needed to be mindful of as we go into a classroom Absolutely.
Ellen Cullen
And the classrooms I work in this year, I'm in both gen ed classes, and then I'm also in special classes where there are many paras, and in gen ed classes there may or may not be paraprofessionals, so I think then you have a whole nother. Other level of dynamics going on with the teacher within her room, how she's coping with managing, push down from above, but then the push down from within, and then push down from push up from students. Like there's a whole lot of things she or he is managing, in terms of managing, and I'm I sometimes am viewed as one more piece that she or he would have to juggle. So I think as far as I can understand, when a teacher wants to claim their power, because there is so much pulling at them or expectations on them and demands on them that I don't want to add to that demand, and I can understand when they want some control. And I think changing, you know, reframing, it is I want, so bad, to give you the control instead of No, it's my piece of the pie. I think if I can put reframe it as I want that for you, and I get it and how can I help you, like when I enter in that mode of let's just take care of you. First. Johnny will benefit from a teacher who is a that a teacher's well being is being attended to?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, you bring up a really interesting dynamic, especially for within school based ot practice, just school based ot in general. That is the dynamic between teacher, OT, para, para, educator, and then you have the student also in there as well. That is a very dynamic situation. It's one that I have found myself in the middle of multiple times, like, do I talk to the Para? Do I talk to the teacher? You know, do I include the Para or exclude the Para from pull out services, or even when I'm in the classroom, and all that and and it's not just about, you know, working directly with the Para, but it's also about making sure, or figuring out how the teacher or if the teacher needs to be looped in. So I definitely want to address that here in a little bit, as we get more to our to our action oriented part of this podcast episode. But I do want to talk a little bit about you've done some research with this and whatnot, and I want to know a little bit about your research, but also kind of what made you dive into this, because you were very well of these power dynamics, and very well aware of supporting teachers, almost to the same extent that we support the students themselves. But was it always the case, or did it take some time getting into that? And is that what led to your research, or kind of explain what led to the research,
Ellen Cullen
what led to the research was really back in I would say, well, it had been building up a sense that I wasn't feeling effective as a school based OT, in terms of seeing the change a sustainable change in students, they might come and through the years, I've primarily back. I'd say 20, I'll say 2010 it was still a pull out model. And so, oh, I'm here for Johnny. So really, the interaction with the teacher and I was scheduling, and then I really would say he did great, or, Oh, he didn't do great. So it became a he did great or he didn't do great. But it was really like, where is the sustainable change in occupational engagement in the classroom, I wanted to see change, occupation based change, and I wasn't in that context. I was really that that context wasn't authentic in the therapy room, and I wasn't feeling like I mattered. What am I doing? I see great things in an OT room, but I wasn't, what did that matter if in an authentic setting, it wasn't happening? So that was driving me to go back to school to answer that question, how can I affect change? And I did go to a teacher school within a university. So I really immerse myself in a teacher's world. And I learned different theory, a motivational theory called self determination theory, which aligned nicely to the Moho I felt there were so many similarities there. I was like, how come I never learned about self determination theory? It's so Moho ish. And then I really being in class with teachers, I really started to hear their stories, and I felt such empathy for them. I really started to connect with the piece that I was missing the teacher, which I really I don't know how I missed it. They were there the whole time. I was so focused on the client being the student, that I had missed the teacher, the teacher, in the relational context of the classroom, was the one trying. Facilitating or restricting occupational performance for that student within that context. And I think I've grown to appreciate Moho embracing context more as I went back to Moho and looked at it and learned more about the intentional relationship model. So then, after my master's, which I infused Moho with self determination theory, and my thesis focused on transitions, not just the major transition for students out of school, but transitions along the way, and how important caregivers and caregiving staff are, I really didn't start diving into addressing the teacher as really an occupational being, until I then went on for my post professional doctorate. Then I really I pivoted a bit from looking at student autonomy to teacher autonomy. And I think that links real well, Jayson, with your notion of power. Where is Teacher autonomy? What are we? How are we as OTs supporting teacher autonomy and teacher occupational adaptation? So again, that's where it really you know, I hadn't seen any coaching model that looked at the teacher as the caregiver of their classroom family. We have coaching models, addressing caregivers in the home, parents, yeah, families, but who? Who's addressing in the classroom, family, the teacher, yeah.
Jayson Davies
And so now kind of to put a little definition, I guess, behind this right, the the teacher as the caregiver. When you're speaking to that. Are you thinking of it in a way, in a way of like, as a consultation for a student, or is it very different from that, or a collaboration for a student? Or is it very
Ellen Cullen
different it's and the way the system is set up now I fly under the radar with my consultation, by definition, consultation still views the OT as holding the power and being the expert in terms of us giving strategies, but not necessarily being an equal partner with the Teacher and letting the teacher make the decision. I think teachers do. They'll take what we say. Do they always implement it when we consult with them? I don't know. So the teacher always does hold the power. We just gotta, like, remind ourselves, you know, they always do hold the power. We just have to be okay with that. So coaching acknowledges it puts out some things. I love to picture us in coaching as CO designers. But what's really happening? We're letting a teacher's natural tendency to want these things happen for their student happen. We're just providing the aha moments through coaching where they're like, Yeah, and we let them own that, and then we can throw out ideas, and then they're like, Ah, no. And we're like, okay, and maybe in consultation that can happen too, because maybe some OTs are already coaching, but that's where I'm I'm really coaching it within the consult, so within the school based setting. That's how I'm I'm kind of flying under the radar.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, so would you consider that your coaching model is still pertaining to a specific student, and therefore you're coaching the teacher basically pertaining one particular student? Or is it more of a I'm coaching this teacher in general, or is it a little bit of both?
Ellen Cullen
It actually, that's a great question, Jayson, because it actually is both, but we just don't really call it that, because we in the schools have to focus on Johnny. But as I'm focusing on Johnny, I'm like, oh, to the teacher, I noticed you did that. Do you know you do that? That was awesome. So I really try to notice what the teacher is doing well, or Wow, what you think about that, or just kind of ask some guiding questions. Or teachers don't always have. I would think OTs are pretty non judgmental people. We're not like another teacher that's judging them. We're not an administrator judging them. We're giving them feedback as just a co I like to think we're just like peers together, and if we can kind of, oh, did you notice how, when you did that, he did that? Oh, so we're and I'm like, Oh, I noticed, like, how, you really seem to value checking in with the students about how they're feeling. I noticed when you did that, he just lit right up. And it just kind of helps connect teachers with their students. If you can find something like a teacher might come to you and say, Oh. Johnny today, and I can say, Yeah, but isn't that spirit? And I know you're someone with spirit like you and Johnny like you, you have the same thing going on with spirit, or I try to make a connection there. So I am helping to find values that align between the student and the teacher, to help this, you know, help that relationship. But then we're also co designing intervention in context for students and I it does start with that relationship. They have to trust you and be authentic. They know. They know, yeah, they know, if you're you know. So I think it's, I love coaching. I really think that it allows the teacher to connect with why they went into teaching and get that enthusiasm back, and we can be the ones to help them light that fire again.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, absolutely great. Love the ideas. So many things I want to discuss, but I do want to continue moving forward. And I want to understand what your research actually looked like, what the goal of it is, and then some of those outcomes. So if you could really quickly kind of talk us through the what the actual research entails.
Ellen Cullen
So my research involved an occupation based coaching model implementing an occupation occupation based coaching model with two kindergarten teachers, and the focus was on teacher self efficacy. I wanted to explore whether or not my occupation based coaching approach facilitated teacher self efficacy. So this was a pilot program, and to start teacher self efficacy is a type of self ethics efficacy, wherein teachers are strongly affected by their beliefs about the potential, their potential to impact student learning. So there's a lot of research about teacher self efficacy positively impacting student achievement and the teacher's willingness to implement innovation. It can also affect teacher stress levels and their desire to stay in the field. And as we know, teacher burnout is a huge issue. So we're really looking at will this model in terms of what I can provide to the teacher facilitate their self efficacy. So I started with opening myself up to the teachers, to whatever way that coaching would go. So I really had to make sure I focused on building that trusting relationship with these, these two kindergarten teachers, and I did that through using intentional relationship model tools, and I explored what was going on for them and both it just happened to be the two teacher volunteers within the school district were both teachers that had a high percentage of English language learners in their class. These were two experienced teachers. However, they we were coming off of covid. This was 2021 and they expressed their frustration with having to meet standardized testing criteria with these English language learners who were just coming to school, and then they had a whole class of students that were coming off of covid. So their frustration was, we have to meet standardized testing scores, but these kids are nowhere near ready to learn. So their values were, we are good teachers. We know what it takes to have them be ready to learn, but there's no way we can implement that with the demands the system is placing on us. And I said, I want to help. And that's how it began. We started. I learned about them. They're about their occupational identity. We explored occupational competence. We use the OTs short form. It was a very, it's a medical, medically based tool. However we I did say, let's frame it in terms of your teacher occupation. So that helped us get some data that we needed. And yeah, we went from there, wow.
Jayson Davies
So by saying, you know, how can I help? And that led you down this entire path. Now I believe that this is in in addition to the services that you were completing under an IEP correct. It's not an instead of IEP services
Ellen Cullen
this, yes, this capstone project was in addition to my ot caseload, so I had to work on doing my weekly coaching sessions with the teachers in addition to my ot caseload.
Jayson Davies
Yes, yeah. So, yeah, yeah. And that's kind of why I bring this up a little bit, because one of the things that I constantly hear and I've also experienced. Many times it's like, how do I even have time? Or how do I find time to support teachers? And given that you kind of forced yourself to do this, I'm interested to hear what were some techniques that you used, or what were the most successful techniques that you think you used that actually led you and the teachers to be able to make this time, or to set aside this time, or to, you know, a lot of people, we say we don't have time for something, but it's more that we're not making time for it. And that comes from both sides, right? It's not just the time that we have, it's the time that we have and the teachers have. And so I'm interested to hear kind of how both you and the teachers made this work, time wise.
Ellen Cullen
Well, fortunately, my district supported me, which was great. It really, I had a relationship with these two teachers, so I they knew me, and there was that element, and they wanted to help me as well. But I think, truly, we were all invested in this. And they really, really, they were motivated. They wanted to work on these things, and they were excited to have someone who would partner with them to try some innovative strategies that I think there was a part of them. Even though they were experienced teachers that they thought, No, nothing's going to change. They were always like, Nope, this is how it's going to be. This is how it goes. But I was like, wow, we could try. And I'll back you up. I think, wow, okay. And I'm like, yeah, it's our capstones, you know? And I was lucky. I did have a field work student with me, who happened to be an English language learner, student back in the day, himself. So it was really amazing how all these pieces fell into place. I had no idea that these two teachers would volunteer. I had no idea they were both the L slotted l kindergarten teachers, and I had no idea my fieldwork student was an L. So it was really a fascinating time. Gotcha.
Jayson Davies
Fantastic. Cool. Well, we're going to take a quick break and we come back, we'll dive into kind of those results of your research, and then move forward with actionable tips for school based ot practitioners who want to collaborate and consult more and support their teachers more. So we'll be right back. All right, to wrap up the last question, Ellen, when did you actually meet with those teachers? Was it during lunch? Was it after school? Before school? How did you or what time frames worked for the two of you, after school?
Ellen Cullen
It was after school. But what we did was, do we enacted the actual work during the day?
Jayson Davies
Okay? And so because of Go ahead,
Ellen Cullen
oh yeah. So my, well, in the in the district took away this program. We had a kindergarten support service program where I had to push into kindergarten classes anyway. So my actual coaching sessions with the teachers, like we would kind of say, How am I doing? How are you doing? Where we actually met was after school. However, the work that we did was during my ot kindergarten support program, and I think that's where a workload model is so necessary to have something like this work really well.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I think that's accurate. And I also like the idea of, I don't know if you've done this, but if I knew that I needed to work with a student both in the classroom and also consult, I was very specific about putting both in the classroom and consultation on the IEP, not just one or the other, and kind of hoping that I would make time for it. I was very intentional about putting more than one service on an IEP if necessary, so that I could have both that in classroom time or the pull out time and the consultation time. So yeah, the other question that I really wanted to ask you was, how did you, or did this even come up with where, because you were working with the teachers, consulting with them or coaching them in the afternoons. Did that lead to you having missed IEPs that you weren't able to attend because of these consultations? Did that lead to other things not getting done that you know, an OT traditionally has to do, progress, notes, all that fun stuff. Did that occur as part of you needing or as part of you consulting and coaching these teachers?
Ellen Cullen
Fortunately for that capstone project, I was fortunate to have an OT fieldwork student that lifted some of the load off of me. However, in my typical school based life right now that wouldn't happen. I would have a real hard time implementing a coaching program like this. My district operates by a caseload model, not a workload model. However, we have built in an extra week of coaching time, so we do a. Monthly model. So we have three weeks of direct and one week that we can use for coaching. However, sometimes we do have to make up students during that week, but that, as I look at it, that is when I do most of my consultation.
Jayson Davies
I love that. Yeah, they're using the three to one model. Awesome. Did you were you there when that happened? Or Yes, and did that happen as kind of a result to your research and seeing the
Ellen Cullen
benefits of that. It was actually something that in our area where I live, a lot of school districts were moving over to that model. So when we as an OT department brought that up, it was something like, yeah, let's get on board. Other districts are doing it, so I'm really happy for that. We're real thankful to have that extra time. Now I don't know how we did it without it. How did we do our I don't know, but I think it has really moved us closer to a true workload model, although, you know the medical model pushes in, we, we, you know, still have kids in blocks of time, time slots.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, all right, I'm gonna prevent myself from asking you all the questions I have about a three to one model, because we will go way off topic if we do that. Well, I'll just save it for another episode. But going back to your research, I noticed that when you're talking about kind of the constructs of your research. You're talking about a working with teachers or coaching teachers their self efficacy, and English language learners. Yes, most of those. If you talk to most school based ot practitioners, I'm going to say, like 98% of them, they will say a I do not focus on English, second English as a second language students in the sense of, I may support them, but not you know any term not related to language. B, I don't touch teacher. Self efficacy and C, consultations are really difficult for me. So I guess the question here is, even though what you decided to work on like almost sounds nothing like traditional or school based occupational therapy. Why was that important like? Why is it actually important that school based ot practitioners focus, I guess, primarily on that teacher self efficacy, and is that something that should be more of our role? Absolutely.
Ellen Cullen
I like to think of OTs, not fixers. We are there to support all students. All students are our students. And if any student is struggling with their occupational performance in the classroom, if there's any part of that, or I'd like to think if there's any part of its teachers occupational performance that we can help support or problem solve, we are the people to do it. We are systems thinkers. Our ot education has helped us think convergently and divergently. So we can go in and out and look at big systems and then we can hone in on a problem. We we are systems thinkers, so I really feel that. Again, back to Moho, self efficacy. We're looking at volition, we're looking at values. We're looking at what matters to me. You know, the either what what values did this? Does the teacher have? What values does the student have? No one is going to engage in occupation if they're not motivated to do so. So we really need to look at those motivational constructs. That goes back to our Occupational Therapy education. That's just who we are. We don't just look at purely tasks. We look at the motivation and the reason behind, behind why someone does the task. So I think you have to look at those things. We're dealing with, humans and ELLs. I think maybe there's a stigma that, oh, OTs are medical people. There must be a problem medically or a special need. No, we can, we can support ELLs. And many times, some of the strategies we use with other students work for ELLs. They visual support ELLs routines, visual video modeling, using auditory cues like a bell for transitions, we can, we can help support L's.
Jayson Davies
Wow, yeah, I've never, even, never even had the thought process of supporting English student language learners like that's just not something I've ever focused on. I know we absolutely, I will shout from the rooftop that MTSS, you know, is essential for occupational therapy to be a part of. But Never have I thought like it's also essential for us to maybe to focus on students who are learning the English language and need support. And they absolutely do need support, and as ot practitioners, we probably have more to offer than we have ever even thought of. So thanks for sharing that absolutely all right. So now let's talk a little bit about your outcomes. I know when it comes to capstone projects, sometimes we get fantastic. Results, sometimes we get more anecdotal results. What have you seen, both the short term results that you know maybe went into your capstone, and then also maybe some of the longer term results? I'm sure you're still in touch with some of those teachers. Kind of what were those results for you?
Ellen Cullen
The results were not what I expected, I think, in different situations with different teachers that might have been different. I had two experienced teachers who knew me and wanted to support me, but they truly were honest and saying, No, this program really helped me. I did not have it in my mind at all that I would see the difference, the significant difference in value that my program provided for them, and and I was blown away by that. So the outcome, yeah, the outcome of my research showed that when the program wasn't there, the teacher slipped back into what I do doesn't matter. I'm really not supported. Standardized tests are coming. Parent teacher conferences are coming. I have the slip in student learning from covid. And what the outcomes found was that when I was there to kind of to support them and say, No, we got this, you got this. We can handle this. Let's reframe it as you know, something different in the capstone project itself, we co designed together in the classroom, put some real innovative ideas in place. The teacher they added to the program because they had a parent connection piece, which I hadn't even thought of. So they said, Oh, I think we need to get parents involved in this. I'm like, That's awesome. So but then I pulled away, and we let we didn't have our weekly coaching sessions, we didn't have our weekly co design in context sessions. And I think that lack of having a guide on the side. They felt that. And I I think they got back to like, my values do not align with the district's values. They just want to see me pumping out test scores that align with how they look to other districts. And I think they felt back into like, okay, it's mid year. We started the year Ellen. Everything was going great, but now it's mid year and and I'm back to waiting for summer vacation. I'm like, Oh, we got to keep that momentum going. And I think I would like to know what would have happened if I did a year long program. I'd like to think that the coaching that OTs do does help keep teachers rolling along with some positive momentum, that we can address volition and that like why you went into the profession, and that you do matter, and that you are a good teacher, and there is room for innovation.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, are you in a What state are you in?
Ellen Cullen
Again, New York State, that's right,
Jayson Davies
yeah, in a state that ot practitioners cannot become anything other than an OT in the school based setting, just unless they go back for school for a long, long time, right?
Ellen Cullen
However, my district was very, is very innovative, that they allowed me to actually run a summer program for ELLs where I was the program administrator. So I was able to be an OT leader in that capacity by using grant money to run a kindergarten driving to learn program, and that was the program we put in place during my coaching capstone project, we did a kindergarten coaching to learn program where the kids got their kindergarten driver's license. We set up rest areas, pit stops. We had all sorts of like stop signs, and the kids loved it. And we related to, oh, what are you going to do to get ready to go to the math trip? We got to get our pencil eraser. And then we, you know, instructed on strategies like verbal rehearsal and using a kinesthetic one finger pencil eraser notebook. And you know, it was all in the context of play, and all kids want to drive, so they made cars, and we had to adjust our engine speed. So in the summer, we ran that program to as a boost to get the L students ready for school, yeah, wow.
Jayson Davies
And you said that that was not part of your capstone, but it was kind of based upon the capstone. Because, yes, so were you during your capstone? Was that something that you might teach, or you might support your teachers with implementing something like that? Or, I guess my question here is, what did the actual time spent with the teachers look like when you were meeting with them after school. Was it focused on, you know, that volition piece? Remember why you came into school based OT? Or was it super structured? Or was it more, less structured, interview and support?
Ellen Cullen
It was structured. I really had to do the program with. Fidelity. So we did look at our IRM tools. I reflected on how I was being true to my own modes and my my own ot goal of using my modes very intuitively to what the teacher was looking for. So I did reflections, but the teacher and I would say, How are you doing? How are things going? What could we do differently? Let's plan for our for our in context session this week, and that's how it would go. And we always revisit our occupation, the occupational formulation, I always referred back to that story, their occupational narrative, that they told me, and that together we developed and we developed our goals, occupational formulation, style goals, based on the theory of Moho, so that it was a structured process. But we always had a plan, yeah,
Jayson Davies
yeah, yeah. So, okay, so now I'm going to put like, the last three questions that I've asked you kind of together, because I think some people, if let's just imagine an occupational therapist isn't listening today, or an occupational therapy as an assistant isn't listening. And they might be thinking, okay, working with teachers, working with students, with, you know, English as a second, second language learner. How is this OT? Why? Why is this being done by an OT like, shouldn't this just be teacher supporting teachers, or shouldn't this be an administrator supporting a teacher? And so I want to let you kind of answer that. Like, why is it that this is an occupational therapy program, not just a teacher getting support from another teacher, or a teacher getting support from an administrator? Does that make sense? Does that question
Ellen Cullen
make sense? Yes, and that's a great question. And during the Capstone, I was there to support the teachers occupational adaptation. So I was looking to have more alignment with the teacher, to teachers values and how they felt competent, and that was my role as an OT to support the teacher. So in that moment and the district doesn't pay me to have the teacher as my client. They pay me for the student to be my client. However, there are some nuances there that in order for me to have the most impact or bang for my buck with Johnny, I have to support the teacher. I have to support the teacher's occupation. So I'm always focused on occupation, and I do care about the teacher's occupational identity and their feeling of self efficacy and the mastery experiences that ot provides, or we can provide the environment and context for those to occur. Promotes teacher occupational adaptation. And if we look at our role as focused on occupation that applies to we can do that to the teacher, to a parent, to the student, to the system as a whole. Like we really need to have that systems lens of how we can impact through our skills, and we could do that in the community. So I think the more the otpf four look looks to us to look beyond the individual, we do need to extend out to different systems and show that we have value. Are we bringing value to the people that we work with. And I don't think we always frame who our client is, but I think it's real important to then apply our occupational reasoning skills to those clients.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And to think about the teacher as part of the client is an important side of that. So all right, we're gonna take our final break, and when we come back, we're gonna really talk it, talk about how to implement this right now, like, how can a school based ot practitioner kind of use this? And maybe it won't look exactly the same, but how they can use this. So let's take our break. All right, we are back with Ellen, and Ellen, you've done this now as a capstone, it sounds like you're still doing some teacher collaboration and coaching within your three to one system. You've got that that week that you can kind of support teachers a little bit more and not worry as much about the direct intervention with students. I want to know what you learned during your capstone and even before your capstone, because you talked about your your past experience. Really supporting you and what you're doing now. But what did you learn that you're still really implementing today when it comes to supporting those teachers, even though you don't necessarily have this official program in place to support teachers,
Ellen Cullen
my capstone changed me as a school based ot everything I do now views the teacher. I have a loving response towards all teachers, and there certainly might be some teachers that I would prefer more than others, but I always approach them empathetically, and that my capstone showed me. Me a little glimpse of what their life is like in the in the constraints they're under. So I think, if anything, it allows me to be to provide a loving response towards them. And I think I just it's okay for a day for me to say, How can I help, like I or without even asking, just provide materials or say, Hey, how about can I lighten your load? And how can I do that for you? Like I want to show them that I am supporting their well being. And that is doing my job for Johnny.
Jayson Davies
That's interesting. The way that you wrap that up, that is doing my job for Johnny, because I did kind of want to ask that a little bit, did you ever get any pushback? Or do you get pushback in terms of, well, supporting the teacher isn't supporting Johnny
Ellen Cullen
i and I've been in it a long time in this field, so now I'm like, I just like, I just know I am. But I mean, I certainly think I could however. You know, I'm always careful to make sure that in my documentation, like I, I do consider that time of modeling in the classroom really good for kids, because they see a teacher and I loving each other. They see a teacher and I co designing together. They see us fail. They see us laugh. They so I think kids, kids need to see that we can be in our authentic selves, certainly professionally, but like kids learn to problem solve and be creators and fail and and I think there's sometimes with cookie cutter curriculums, teachers feel like they don't have that their autonomy has, in a way, been taken away. They're afraid during a walk through they're going to be judged for not saying the curriculum the way it has to be said. But I kind of there we just, I think, if anything, kids see human beings being real with each other. And I think that's really healthy.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, no, I think, I think that is absolutely true as well. I just know it's sometimes very difficult within our school based constraints. And, you know, being careful here, and I know we have to be a little careful, because of the documentation, because of the billing practices, because of how everything like it's hard. You can't obviously, you can't documentate. You can't document what did not happen, obviously. And so I just feel like you have to, if a teacher comes in and asks you for help with something, there might be some times that we have to say, Hey, that's a little bit beyond my scope. But if we can work it to Hey, yes, I can support you, and I see how this supports Johnny somehow to in relationship to his goal and or something else important for Johnny, I could see how that would work. And I think it can help two birds, one stone to a degree, absolutely.
Ellen Cullen
And I would want listeners to know, most of my therapy is done within context. There are some situations that I pull students, some of the older students, to do some targeted intervention. However, most of my work is done in context. So there is more of especially kindergarten, there's very much of a different kind of it's a little bit easier to do that kind of work. It's easier for me to be set up at a center, and I work on cutting. It's easy for me to just go in and do a lesson, and we're working on some executive functional, function skills, but it's based on job stations where one is shredding what it so it's easy to kind of have that environment and context, be able to bill for that, because that is occupation, and I am strategically placing myself with a certain student, but it allows for some flow and CO designing with the teacher. So I I try to, I take a cart into the classroom, and I have a lot of materials in it, so I really have forced myself to build good relationships. Make sure I'm welcome in the classroom. If I'm not, it's okay. I respect the teacher saying hey today, and I'm like, yep, oh, I got you. So I think, but I can't, I always make sure that what I am doing is delivering a skilled service. And I think we we walk that line by being real creative with how we deliver our services?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And so your your capstone we've talked a lot about revolved around the self efficacy of the teachers related to a particular student subsection, yes, now, though, it's much more broad, I'm assuming, because you're not focusing on students as English language learners, but it's a little bit more broad. You have that time set aside for some consultation and coaching. What are you finding that maybe either a teachers are needing most or B that you are most effective at when it comes to supporting teachers?
Ellen Cullen
I feel that what teachers are looking for is help, especially with some of the more challenging behaviors they're experiencing in their classroom. And I think that's what I'm noticing more recently, is that they're feeling overwhelmed with the level of need of student that they're getting, and they're not feeling competent in terms of managing all, being able to differentiate for all of the students. So I find myself focusing a lot with the teachers on that, and they're very welcome to those kinds of suggestions. I think, I think, personally, I'm very good at like, kind of breaking down a problem, because the original problem the teacher may think is the problem, may or may not be the problem. So when I can reframe it as, what do you think? What happens before? What happened? Like really trying to break down what is happening, because I think they see it in a little different way. But we can come at it through more divergent to convergent, we can look out, and then we can look in. And sometimes that helps a teacher say, Wow, I didn't even see that. I was so focused on this. And those are things that I think we can help the teacher look at a situation maybe a little differently. Okay?
Jayson Davies
And I want to also ask, is there something more in relationship to newer teachers? I know you've been in this field for a little for a little while. Are you finding that newer teachers have similar concerns to more experienced teachers, or does it take a different approach? What do you see with newer teachers?
Ellen Cullen
Yeah, what I'm noticing some of the newer teachers, they're scared not to get tenure New York state. So I do notice that some of those newer teachers want to do things by the book. They're very scared to deviate from anything that they could potentially not have a job. And I'm very sensitive to that. So I I really gage their comfort level with like some of the more innovative ways to implement curriculum. For instance, if they're working on numbers, we set up hopscotch, and I say, Would you be willing? What do you think? What it's up to you? And they might like, Oh, that's a little, you know, whatever their comfort level is, yeah. Or I do tend to really be real gentle, because I understand the constraints that they're under, and they don't know a lot about OT. So I love to be an OT that can say, hey, we do a lot of things as OTs, but we can address this. We can address that. Are there things you're noticing with your students? Could that I could help with? And how can I be of assistance to you? So they think of us a lot, of the fine motor, the handwriting. But then then I kind of say, Okay. And then I say, Oh, do you Did you notice that, you know, I can help you with that, or, or I could, we could work to develop some solutions. So I really tried to take a take their lead on what, what is a problem for them? Yeah, that
Jayson Davies
that's interesting. I was just going to ask you if you felt like this model of coaching teachers, directly interacting with teachers, as opposed to focusing on just the students, has opened up your scope of practice to a degree. And it sounds like that's kind of what you're alluding to
Ellen Cullen
right there. Yes, yes. And it and I personally struggle with sometimes ot tries to be everything. However, when I just focus on occupation of student, or when I just focus on, say, a student's having difficulty with toileting, how can I help? So if you really look at it and through an occupation lens, it really can help keep us focused as we're occupational therapists. But yeah, our scope of practice can expand, but I have found working in education, what helped me tremendously was getting some teacher education myself, learning more about curriculum, learning about how I can take curriculum and then mesh it in a developmentally friendly way in the classroom. And that human development training and our OT training and teacher training part that I had to seek out I didn't get it in my ot program back in the day. That really helped me, because then I'm like, Oh, I know curriculum. Why? Why is you're working on digraphs. Tell me more about digraphs. Like, I don't really like, tell me, okay, I can help. Like, we could, we could, you know, slide with our finger across a digraph. We could do some fun, take a dip on the digraph, you know. So I can implement some of my motor skills along with digraphs. So I try to support teacher goals with my goals, ot goals, but they should all be goal, team goals, but, yeah, I
Jayson Davies
was just gonna ask you about goals, if that helps you. No, I totally get that right. Like, is it a goal? Is it ot goal? Is a teacher goal? It's actually the kids goal. I don't know, so I was gonna ask you about that. Like, does the way that you as a team write goals make it easier to facilitate teacher training, teacher consultation and collaboration?
Ellen Cullen
It should. Good. I mean, ultimately we should all be doing team goals. But I do know it gets tricky, mechanics wise, when you're doing progress monitoring to tease out the data collection. However, that is the dream. The dream is to see how it can all blend together, how we can integrate some fine motor visual perception into reading. I think that's a really great area to expand it. I mean, there's so many areas that they could be holistic. I know as an OT, I don't have that extensive knowledge to really be able to know the curriculum well enough to be immersing myself as an occupation based person, so that, I mean, as much as I do know, I do think that actually having a school teacher credential and part of an OT program would would be great, because then we could really be occupation based. I mean, we are. We do address occupations of like the fine motor and the cutting, but the actual occupation of learning, yeah, and, you know, I can do as much to address executive function, but there are actual components of, like, you know, just different things that I'm like, Yeah, we could do long division on the floor with a big mat and, like, I could jump to carry the number, you know, There's been, I'm like, Oh, I wish I had, I wish I had a little bit more knowledge of how you teach those things.
Jayson Davies
I mean, it's hard to, it's difficult to address an occupation if you don't fully understand the occupation and right, like we type in, or we write in, right? Education is an occupation. I believe it's ideal, or no, it's an ADL. But like, education is very different, K through three, four through six, six through eight, and then adult learning and high school and all that. Like, it's very different. And understand education from a large concept, yes, to the education in this classroom for this student and this teacher, and how that works together. So I totally get that and how being and having some educator training could help.
Ellen Cullen
Yes, and I do think that's why that collaboration between the OT and teacher is even more important in the school setting, because we do rely on them to teach us as much as they're looking to have us teach them. We really need to know in order to do our job effectively. We really need the nitty gritty of, like, how, that's how that's being conveyed in the classroom. Are you, you know? How are you? What's your mode of instruction? Like, like, what tools do you use? What, what are you going to have them do? And, and we don't always have the time to collaborate. Oh, this is our science lesson. We're going to have them do that. Great, awesome, you know? And we get that. But, yeah,
Jayson Davies
I want to go back to something we discussed earlier in this podcast, and I said I would come back to it. And so I want to do that. And that was the dynamic of supporting paraprofessionals as well as teachers and supporting students. And I guess, to kind of kick this off a little bit, and we'll probably wrap up with this is a, do you feel like you also need to provide that support to paraprofessionals and B, I guess it would be an or, or, do you support the paraprofessionals through the teachers? How do you see that?
Ellen Cullen
Wow, those are such interesting dynamics to think about, because there are so many different relationships there. I target the teacher and what their goals for their classroom are, and then I ask them how, how are you feeling about your staff, your team here is everyone on the same page with the things you value or what you'd like to see happen. And through that conversation, I get a little bit bit more insight, because I'm not there all the time. However, yeah, I, I said, I, you know, I can help. Is there anything I could do? And sometimes I know, as OTs, we, we do observe things. So sometimes I'll say, Hey, what is your feeling about, you know, a certain thing it might be, you know, you know, and rightfully so, some of our paraprofessionals are hired without knowing their job isn't to do for students. Their job is to, you know, enable maximal engagement and participation. So, you know, they may say, Well, no, I don't think they can do it. So sometimes, as an OT or a teacher, if we frame it as sometimes your job is, is not to do anything, but just be there, make sure they're safe. And I think that's like, wait, but I'm supposed to do a job. So it's interesting, because teachers have to walk. Teachers are navigating that all the time, but I think those are important relationships, but I always make sure the teacher remains the the head of their, their classroom. That is their, their domain, and I am entering it. So I think I always keep that idea present, and I'm more than willing to have the teacher hold that degree of control, because they don't have control. Over a lot, I'm finding they have a lot of things pulling at them, and I really want to make sure they know that, that I'm not there to take any of that away. But if I can help them, I'm here for them.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally get that. It is a very unique dynamic, and it's almost akin a little bit to the OT. OT a relationship only in the sense that they are their supervisor. From the sense of they instruct the paraprofessional on tasks and how to support students and whatnot, but at the end of the day, they are not the supervisor when it comes to any type of workplace concerns, right? Like it's not the teacher's responsibility to discipline the paraprofessional, and so it's this very unique dynamic where you you're giving them a ton of support, but at the same time you're not their supervisor, so you're supervising them without their being, without being their supervisor on paper, and it is just a, yeah, interesting concept.
Ellen Cullen
Think about that. They're not only managing their students, they're managing staff that are also working with their students, so they feel responsible for what happens with those students through the staff, however, they're not ultimately in charge of dictating to those pair of professionals different things because they can't make the rules. So think about, think about how that would feel. I often think like, wow, that's really putting them in a precarious situation, liability, or like, just your sense of, again, self efficacy and autonomy, yes, and how, how instruction is being dosed to our students. It's real interesting because, you know, everyone has their own style. So yeah, I mean it really exactly yes, yes, yeah, that's a great point. Jayson, great.
Jayson Davies
Well, the classroom is a very dynamic place, as I think we all realize, but maybe don't fully understand, and I love your idea of, you know, really viewing the teachers as a client, because it's really hard to support an individual student without fully understanding the classroom. And of course, the teacher, the paraprofessionals, everyone else in that classroom, is absolutely a part of that student's learning environment. If we look at the PEO model, right, it's not just about the person, it's also about the environment, and everyone in that environment, which is everyone in that classroom. So, yeah, Ellen, are there any, I guess, tips? Last tips, don't feel like you got to go over everything, but just something that you share with other school based ot practitioners, if they want to maybe coach their teachers up a little bit more. What are maybe 123, tips that you just kind of have for them to help get started?
Ellen Cullen
Yes, I think if you know certainly, you can look into theories. I use the Moho. I used intentional relationship model. The Moho Clearing House has free resources that that you can use, the self assessment of modes. There's also a real quick check on modes that the teacher and the OT could use. So those are great resources. I think you know, again, I love occupation occupational formulation. It really is similar to an occupational profile. So I love getting teacher stories, but again, I know time constraints, but looking at different teacher coaching models, evocative coaching is a real good one that helped me quite a bit. But I think if, if you again, I know this sounds real simplistic, but if you love your teachers, and not in a romantic love, but a real, like loving, loving stance, and really have empathy for them, and think about CO designing and innovating with them, and then offering, offering to care for them. And you know, we care for our caregivers as OTs, that's a great model for coaching. So I would say if I gave other school based OTs some tools or things to think about, I, you know, I hope that, I hope that helps, and some references that you can Jayson, I'll share some references that they could check out. And hopefully coaching will be, at some point, a school based model that will be acceptable and I think it's authentic. It's occupation based. It's it. It helps generalize what we do so, and that's what we want to see. We want to see that generalization occur in authentic settings where occupation is occurring. So I would say, yeah, if we can reframe the school as family and the caregiver as the teacher as a caregiver that has a lot of demands on them. We want to keep our teachers. I love them. Keep our teachers because we can affect change in occupation through the teacher, the teacher as the change agent. And we as the OTs, can facilitate all that change in Johnny and hopefully in the teacher too, and in us. So it's it's good all the way around.
Jayson Davies
So yeah, and if nothing else, I think even with the way that we potentially frame talking about this in IEPs, could, could be helpful. I mean, when we sit in an IEP, we are sitting in an IEP with caregivers, right the parents, and they understand that term as a caregiver. And I think if we could explain in an IEP look, you know, you're Johnny's caregiver, but the teacher is also Johnny's caregiver, and they need support. And you know, maybe I don't need to see the student one on one for 30 minutes. Maybe, rather, I need to support the student. And maybe that's not called coaching. Maybe it's called consult on the IEP, but maybe you put on to that IEP 30 minutes a month of consult. I'm doing air quotes for those of you who can't see me, which you can't, because it's in an audio only podcast. But you know, calling it consult because that falls into the confines of occupational therapy, as opposed to calling it coaching. But at the end of the day, you're coaching the teacher, maybe that's the way that you could do it
Ellen Cullen
so well, absolutely. So the program can be delivered through consultation, and the way we deliver that consultation is through a coaching model. So it could, we could definitely, we could make a case for that, and I think it could be ready to implement tomorrow. And I think truly letting the teacher lead, and that's hard for OTs, but if we can let that happen, that only empowers the teacher as well, because they're the ones that are with the kids every day, so they're going to implement the strategies they want to implement on their own anyway. So who's kidding? We're not kidding ourselves. But you'd hope they'd see value in some some of our recommendations. It is, yeah, I mean, I think, I think we offer a good reframe, though, because we can see it from a different lens. And I think, you know, when, when it happens, it just it clicks. And I think they're thankful for that. And when we can see we've helped them, then we're, you know, then we feel a sense of self efficacy ourselves. So, yeah, yeah. I think teachers want to be heard for sure. So I think OTs are great people to do that.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. Well, Ellen, it has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us here on the show. I think this is going to help a lot of OT practitioner not to only better understand that coaching model and how they can do that, but to also understand that, you know, things a don't happen overnight, and B, I don't want to say that you finagle the system a little bit to work for what you want it to do, but I guess it's more things are fluid a little bit. And it's not always a straight, you know, a straight line from point A to point B, and you got to kind of be a little fluid. So thank you so much. Really appreciate you coming on, and I look forward to keeping in touch.
Ellen Cullen
Thank you, Jayson, thank you so much for having me.
Jayson Davies
All right, that is a wrap on episode 194 of the OT school house podcast. Ellen. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your work on occupation based coaching for teachers, the way you've reframed teachers as occupational beings, and using the Moho framework to understand their volition, habituation and performance capacity, is exactly the kind of shift that we sometimes need in school based OT, to revitalize the work that we're doing and also to have more impact with teachers. Your research challenges us to move beyond the outsider expert, if you will, with all the answers, and instead become a co designer with teachers to empower them to reclaim their autonomy and align their practice with their values, and that way we can support so many more students on campus and to you the listener today. Thank you so much for being here and for your commitment to excellence in your school based ot practice. If today's episode resonated with you and you're looking for more resources and professional development and direct mentorship to take your school based ot practice to the next level, I would love to invite you to join us inside the OT school houses, school based ot collaborative. Inside the collaborative, you'll get access to exclusive trainings, a supportive community of school based practitioners, and, of course, direct mentorship with myself. Head on over to OTSchoolHouse.com slash collab to learn more and join us until next time, keep supporting your teachers, empowering your students, and remember you're making a difference every single day. I'll see you next time.
Amazing Narrator
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