OTS 205: A School OTP'S Guide to Dysgraphia and Written Expression
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- 44 min read
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 205 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
Handwriting referrals fill school-based OT caseloads, but many practitioners feel underprepared to address dysgraphia and written expression challenges. In this episode Jayson sits down with Kelli Fetter, founder of Handwriting Solutions, to explore the complex world of dysgraphia—from diagnosis and assessment to evidence-based intervention.
Kelli shares her personal journey as both an OT and parent of a child with dysgraphia, and explains why she believes school-based OTPs are the most well-positioned experts to lead on handwriting support.
You'll learn practical strategies for implementing MTSS handwriting programs, understanding the difference between top-down and bottom-up approaches, assessing handwriting across different cognitive load levels, and creating intensive intervention models like handwriting camps and clubs. They also discuss the emerging "science of writing" movement and why now is a critical moment for OTPs to step into a leadership role in this space.
Whether you're new to school-based practice or looking to sharpen your handwriting intervention skills, this episode is packed with actionable strategies you can bring directly to your students.
Listen now to learn how to confidently support students with dysgraphia and written expression challenges — and why it's never too late to make a difference.
Listen now to learn the following objectives:
— Learners will identify the OTPs role in supporting students with dysgraphia within a tiered MTSS framework, including how to collaborate with teachers, SLPs, and special educators to address written expression as a shared team goal.
— Learners will explain assessment strategies across varying cognitive load levels — from tracing and near-point copying to dictation and self-generated writing — to identify automaticity gaps and guide intervention planning.
—Learners will explain the diagnostic criteria and team-based approach for identifying dysgraphia in school-aged students
— Learners will differentiate between top-down and bottom-up handwriting intervention approaches and determine when each is appropriate based on individual student needs
Guest(s) Bio
Kelli Fetter is a Certified Handwriting Specialist and the founder of Handwriting Solutions, LLC, where she leads a team providing world-class virtual handwriting, reading, and spelling support to students worldwide. She’s also a respected educator for teachers and therapists, known for her evidence-based approach to handwriting, dysgraphia, and dyslexia. With a background in pediatric occupational therapy across clinics, schools, and early intervention, and inspired by her own daughter’s dyslexia and dysgraphia journey, Kelli is dedicated to empowering families and professionals to unlock every child’s potential.
Quotes
“Handwriting is complex. It is nuanced.”
— Kelli Fetter
“Teachers are thirsty for this. They want to be able to support their students.”
— Kelli Fetter
“True automaticity only comes from being able to self-generate thoughts.”
— Kelli Fetter
“Professional athletes aren't learning to be professional athletes one time a week.”
— Jayson Davies
Resources
Episode Transcript
Expand to view episode transcript
Jayson Davies
Hey there, and welcome back to the OT Schoolhouse podcast. This is episode number 205 and today we are diving into one of the most requested, as well as one of the most debated topics in school-based occupational therapy. You already saw the title. You know what it is: handwriting, specifically dysgraphia, is what we're discussing. Now, I know some of you just groaned, some of you just leaned in a little bit closer, and honestly, either way, this episode is for you. My guest today is Kelli Fetter. She is an occupational therapist and founder of Handwriting Solutions, where she runs a virtual tutoring practice. Yes, I said tutoring, not an OT practice. However, her practice is staffed by OT practitioners, OTs as well as OTAs supporting students with dysgraphia. Now, while valuing the full scope of OT within the schools, beyond just handwriting, even Kelli wants to support OT practitioners in their role as handwriting experts because she knows that we are handwriting experts at the end of the day, and she is not afraid to say the things that need to be said. So, in our conversation today, Kelli and I, we are going to talk about what dysgraphia actually is and who, in theory, should be diagnosing it. Why copying in the therapy room does not mean a student has automaticity in the classroom, how cognitive load is quietly sabotaging your students when they are in the classroom, and what a real handwriting intervention model looks like from MTSS Tier One all the way to more intensive services like camps and clubs. Now, if you have ever felt unsure about your role in handwriting, which I know every single occupational therapy practitioner has, this episode is for you. You are really going to appreciate what Kelli has to say today. So let's get into it. Here is Kelli Fetter.
Amazing Narrator
Hello, and welcome to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, your source for school-based occupational therapy tips, interviews, and professional development. Now, to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies. Class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Kelli, welcome to the OT School Hub podcast. It is great to have you here. How are you doing today?
Kelli Fetter
I am doing great. You know, I don't know. It depends on when this is released, but if we, if you are hearing this and you are at the end of the school year, chaos. I am with you. Hopefully, by now though, we're in summer break and we're kicking back and we're taking a little moment to to relax.
Jayson Davies
Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think we're looking at early July here when this actually is released. So yes, absolutely. Hope everyone is having a great Fourth of July celebration. You know, weekend long week as a school-based OT, we get some time off. Hopefully, much better. Yeah, hope everyone's enjoying that. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Well, Kelli, I want to dive into a. I think this is a a fun hot topic question. We're going to kick it off with that, and that is, you know, as school-based occupational therapy practitioners, there is this like constant pressure and this constant like struggle that we kind of consume over, and that is whether we should, you know, dive into this role that we are often find ourselves in as the handwriting specialist or the handwriting teacher, or go the opposite direction and kind of escape from it a little bit, and maybe try and not do as much handwriting. Obviously, the gamut is wide. Those are that's an oversimplification of this. But within your business, you have obviously kind of just gone all in with handwriting, so I want to hear why you decided to go all in with handwriting-not just in your business, but also to you know, like within your OT career.
Kelli Fetter
My daughter has driven everything that we do at Handwriting Solutions, and for very good reason. I know a lot of us come into our careers and our passions, guided by some sort of personal reason, and she is absolutely my reason. Because when she was diagnosed with dyslexia and dysgraphia, the number of supports out there for dyslexia-I mean, you-it was such a low lift, right? There's so much, so much research and resources, and like it was there were no questions like here's what you do you have a dyslexia diagnosis here's what you do meanwhile now this was over seven years ago dysgraphia people looked at me like I had two heads they were like first of all what is that and is handwriting and even any important anymore and who does this? And let's point fingers. And the psychologist didn't even really still doesn't have a gold standard for diagnosing or assessing dysgraphia. So that is why I'm here, and that is why I am so passionate about handwriting in general, dysgraphia, and. Specifically, OTs role in this because we are the most well-positioned experts in serving these students, and it is a collaborative. And we'll touch on all of this throughout the podcast, but the collaboration is key, and we literally we have the skill set, so I get very I hate the word to use the word triggered, but it's true. I am on a bunch of Facebook pages and groups and conversate, and I love to have these open conversations. But nothing gets under my skin more than when OTs reject their role in handwriting and say I see it so like time and time again. You know what? They can't improve anyway past third grade. You know what? We've got tech, and that's our role is to access education. But let me be honest, as a parent, I refuse to accept that for my child. And I have seen firsthand that we can improve, we can remediate and accommodate at the same time, and so really we're just doing a disservice. It's kind of like what I like to think about because again, most people are more comfortable with the dyslexia world, and so that would be like a school saying, "Okay, the kid has dyslexia. Here's an audio book. Good luck. That's absurd, right? Like nobody would ever like. No, we're going to build their skills up as a team, and OT can be on that team too, and should be. Yeah, supporting that child so that they can learn to read and improve and progress. So I definitely get on my soapbox on this topic.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I mean, five minute podcast. We're done. Let's call it a day. No, just kidding. Let's dive further into this because you obviously before you started your business, you were practicing as an OT like so many of us, right? Remind me again. You have you have school based experience. Were you also in the clinic as well?
Kelli Fetter
I did all the things: early intervention, outpatient, private schools, public schools. I did it all as soon as I got out of graduate school.
Jayson Davies
Okay, so before you started your business, was that something that conflicted you? You know, like whether you should lean into handwriting, not lean into handwriting, and what? I mean, obviously now you have, but do you recall having that internal conflict with yourself?
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I realized was a I had never heard of dysgraphia before, which is pretty mind blowing, right? As an OT working in pediatrics, that I had never that word just never in graduate school that we talk about learning disabilities. Never did we really go into dysgraphia much, and handwriting was very looked at from a well, okay. Let's build the foundational skills, which is part of it, right? And I know there's a big debate. I know that we've had you've had speakers come into yeah yeah schoolhouse, and what the research is showing now is that it really should be both, you know, the top down and the bottom up approach, and so I definitely back then was looking at it a lot from that that bottom up approach, and just completely clueless about learning disabilities. To be honest with you, and really, truly, it was not until my daughter was diagnosed that I was like, "Oh, okay, let me figure this out. Yeah, let's figure this out. And and I hear that from OTs all of the time. At least once a day, I get a DM or an email from an OT saying, "How can I support my students? I have a caseload full of students now that are struggling with handwriting, or who are have suspected dysgraphia or a diagnosis, and I have no idea how to help them. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
Two questions, kind of about dysgraphia, the diagnosis per se. A, who is diagnosing students with dysgraphia? Is it an official diagnosis, or is this kind of a you know they've got difficult writing dysgraphia?
Kelli Fetter
It is. Yeah. So, psychologist. It could be educational psych, neuro psych. Ideally, a team. I in in the perfect world, I would love a team diagnostic where you have the psychologist, you have an OT, you have a speech, and you have education, and that would just be incredible, right? But let's be real. Like most of the time, it's just the psychologist, but it's it's tricky to diagnose, and I think that's why it is so confusing for everyone, for parents, for OTs, for teachers, is there is not a gold standard tool measurement tool for dysgraphia or diagnostic tool. So it is a lot of piecing together educational history, medical history, teacher report, parent report, OT evaluate, like looking at kind of all the pieces and solving that puzzle. And I think with that that ideal team, right? If we can all be on this team, supporting this diet. That is that is going to get a more accurate diagnosis, and that is going to get better support for that student. The other issue is a lot of psychologists are not well versed in dysgraphia, and I'll give you an example. One of our families, unfortunately, had not reached out to us at that point, went for a diagnosis, and they tested and got diagnosed with ADHD and with dyslexia. And the parent was like, "Oh, I thought they would get a dysgraphia diagnosis. And I kid you not, the psychologist said, "Oh, we didn't test for that. And I mean, this parent had spent 1000s of dollars out of pocket for for these you know this comprehensive diagnostic report and very frustrating. So there's even a misunderstanding at that highest level. Part of it is because of like you said, what exactly does dysgraphia like? What where does that fall? It is a specific learning disability. So we, if we, we won't actually see the word dysgraphia in the DSM because it falls under that specific learning disability. And then you've got the SLD in reading, SLD in writing, SLD in math. So I think just the nomenclature in and of itself can be really so SLD
Jayson Davies
writing is kind of where this would fall into.
Kelli Fetter
Exactly. Yep. Yep. But confusing, right? Because then you don't see the word, and then so sometimes in school systems they won't even say the word dysgraphia; they'll just say SLD in writing. There's also the whole.
Jayson Davies
Do you think we should?
Kelli Fetter
What?
Jayson Davies
Where do you fall on that? Should we call it SLD writing, or should we call it dysgraphia, or does it matter?
Kelli Fetter
Doesn't matter. I mean, like I think. I think for clarity purposes, it would be nice if we could pick one and go with it. But like, does it does it really matter? As long as people are knowledgeable and and aware and educated on it, I really don't like the nomenclature shouldn't stop us from diagnostics or intervention. intervention-that's just. I think sometimes we get lost in the weeds of like, what should we call it? But in the end, as especially as OT practitioners, we're not looking at a student by their diagnosis. We're looking at their function. So yeah.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned the evaluation process and talked a little bit about the school or various psychologists being involved. You also talked about you know when you had to go online and look for dysgraphia because of the nature of everything going on in your family with your daughter. I'm curious what you found you know several years ago who was treating dysgraphia at that time? Anyone or like I guess when you're looking at the research, where is the research under what journal is it under, or what websites were you finding that were claiming to quote unquote help students with dysgraphia?
Kelli Fetter
No, I mean nobody was really doing. Nobody was explicitly addressing dysgraphia then. The research I had to go into psychology. I had to go into education. There was there's research in on handwriting in the OT field, but not so much dysgraphia then. Again, this was seven years ago. Neurology, you know, I definitely had to seek out, and still do have to seek out from other fields the the research. It was highly under researched at that time as well, and really, you know, at that point in time, she was in a private school, and so we didn't have you know the gift of even like doing the whole IEP 504 and we kind of just like piece together, you know, some kind of school plan because they were supportive, but like it was truly just me piecing it together. And I will tell you, I get like I do empathize with OTs who have come from this like medical model and this foundational skill because I could not, Jayson, I could not wrap my head around my daughter's struggles. I was like her fine motor skill. Like I am the I am the Pinterest. I was the Pinterest queen of OT. Like I was like her gross motor skills are fine. Her fine motor skills are fine. She was through the roof visual spatial skills. What is going on? Like why is she like why is she struggling to read basic CBC letters? Why is she writing reversals and all over? Like she can draw. She was artistic, so I can definitely empathize of like that confusion as as an OT practitioner, as a parent, as a teacher with dysgraphia because it is it is a little bit of a puzzle, and it is quite broad in that it could be all of the things. So it could be motor skills impacting handwriting. It could be visual skills. It could be language skills. It could be executive function. It could be attention. All of those impact that occupation of writing.
Jayson Davies
Yep, absolutely. Well, thank you. We just kind of dove in headfirst into the background of dysgraphia and assessments, kind of before we're talking about school-based OT. So we're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to really kind of you know pair this with the world of school-based occupational therapy. So stay tuned. All right, Kelly. We're back. We've kind of have talked a lot about kind of the the foundation of dysgraphia, but now I want to apply that to school-based occupational therapy, and I think I want to start with the idea. Like we all know that handwriting is the number one, you know, referral reason within school-based OT. Now, within that, though, do you feel like basically every student that we have that has handwriting concerns that we're going to take on and provide intervention, do they have dysgraphia, or do you feel like that there are various you know things going on? Sometimes it might be true dysgraphia under a specific learning disability, or it could be something else.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, it it could be a variety of things, and I think this is where that tiered system, when it is working, it is magical because ideally we are just getting those kids who do have maybe dysgraphia or or other concerns, right? And so we're ruling out a lot in that tier two and tier three. If they are getting good quality handwriting instruction in the classroom and building up some foundational skills as well, that will rule out a lot of our referrals, and then that tier two support of addressing. more broadly, you know, supporting the teacher, providing in services and training, supporting students in a in a more global way, so that again, when we do get those referrals for handwriting, hopefully that percentage will go from 98% a little bit lower, so that we truly are supporting those students. You know, obviously, there's the whole push in versus pull out, and there's nuance to that as well. But ideally, those are the students that we are really getting to spend more time with the ones who who do deeply need that support, and then the others will be supported at those various other tiers and stages.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, and you know, you you bring up the tiers, obviously very important. I think most schools at this point, not every school, but a lot of schools have what they will call MTSS A for academics or MTSS B for behavior. Maybe they have it MTSS math and reading, but I've never heard of a school that has MTSS handwriting or MTSS sensory. If we're going to go down other routes, right? OTs are trying to start these programs, but it's really hard to kind of like the handwriting discussion we had earlier. Do we narrow it down to one thing, or do we keep it broad? Like it's just MTSS OT. What are you seeing? Because I know you you obviously live the world of handwriting right now. What are you seeing in terms of schools implementing or not implementing handwriting programs? Because like that is the tier one, right? Like a foundational handwriting program. What are you seeing?
Kelli Fetter
So it's actually quite promising. And if you would have asked me this two years ago, I would probably have a different answer.
Jayson Davies
Okay.
Kelli Fetter
Because then I was like, oh my goodness, we have a long way to go. I mean, minimal schools were implementing this quality instruction. I think part of you know just bouncing back from pandemic, part of I mean we've got generations of teachers who just they aren't taught how to instruct in handwriting. One of my dear friends, she jokes with me because she put her son in our handwriting camp, and then she was like, "I'm a teacher, and I remember vividly walking in my first day and thinking nobody ever taught me how to teach this kid how to hold a pencil, so there's that. But I I think now you you're obviously seeing the headlines of schools are bringing back cursive.
Jayson Davies
Cursive, yeah.
Kelli Fetter
So it's on the radar. We've got a long way to go, but it is on the radar, which is a lot better than we were a few years ago. I'm like cautiously optimistic in that, though, because I do think our schools need training, our teachers need training, the systems need training. It needs to be a more a more important part of the school day. And it can easily be a more. I think that's sometimes like the misconception is that oh, another thing we have on our plates as teachers, right? That it really doesn't have to be this huge big thing. It can be easily embedded in their literacy that they're already doing, kind of like the science of reading shift. If you as. OTs, you know the listeners here. If you followed anything with the science of reading, you're seeing that shift in the school system. Of they went from balanced literacy and three cuing system, and realize that's not evidence based, and our kids are suffering, and the reading scores were going lower. So now we've got this shift of science of reading pulling in the science, reteaching the teachers of how to teach reading, so I think I I am optimistic that we're going to have the science of writing movement to really shift. Okay, handwriting actually is really important, and the science is there to prove it. And how do we implement this to fidelity because it's one thing to just have it mandated and legislated. Oh, okay, yay! We brought back cursive, but if we spend two weeks on cursive and then forget it, well, that's not really going to do us a lot of good either.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, you know that's interesting. You bring up the science of reading. I actually learned about the science of reading. I don't know all the specifics of it, but I actually found out about it because Beverly Moskowitz over at Size Matters Handwriting Program is kind of taking on using the term science of writing. That is what she's really going in on, and so you know you brought up that too. And so that then forced me to learn about the science of reading because I I saw that. So I yeah I I love it. Obviously, you brought up the the elephant in the room though is that just because it's mandated doesn't mean it's going to be really emphasized. Two weeks of cursive is not going to do anything. Just like oftentimes we'll get into later, right? 15 minutes of handwriting practice once a week probably isn't going to do much either. So yeah, it's a struggle. Where do you see, or how do you see this as an opportunity for school-based OT practitioners?
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, I it is literally like that's why I think I I am so passionate about OT practitioners being the leading force in this. This is like our moment to shine, and if we can be the driving force because we understand neurology, because we understand motor skills and motor learning theory. So if we can be kind of that leader and the driving force behind this movement, I mean, it will not only boost the school and the students and the rapport and all of that, but as a profession, I can see it really giving us a lot more credibility for what that is. As an aside, for any listeners who do want to know more about the science of reading and that whole, you know, history of that, and you're into podcasts clearly because you're here. Sold a story podcast is a great starter for you if you want to know more about that, and then I urge you to really ponder and like do some critical thinking of how that mirrors the handwriting and the writing piece, because it I can just it's laying the groundwork to what I hope in 235, years that we will have this whole movement for the science of writing and bringing that back in the school system. So yeah, I think again, just making our role. This is why I think that that role in the school as the OT practitioner is so powerful because again we can we're you know just one on one consulting with teachers, but providing some parent education, some teacher training. We've actually at Handwriting Solutions we've built out entire teacher trainings because teachers are thirsty for this. They want to be able to support their students, so we were like, okay, we'll train you, and it's really cool to train teachers, kind of from an OT lens as well, and then they're directly implementing, which again will end up making our lives a little bit easier.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
A little bit more manageable caseloads, hopefully.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I in the past have you know implemented an MTSS OT program at a school that I worked at. You know, it really started with one classroom, and then it kind of grew from there. Is literally one classroom that had one of my students in the class, and the teacher was like, you know, I I see you doing handwriting with that one student. You know, can we team up and and just instead of working just with that one student, can you come into the class and you know let's let's put together a program, and that's how it started. And then I had you know more teachers reach out say, hey, you know you did this with Miss So and So. Can can you do this in my classroom? And and it really built from there. I'm curious what you think are kind of some of the precursors or pre things that we might need to put in place if we want to put an MTSS handwriting program together. Do you feel like it's better just to kind of do what I did and start with that one teacher? Do you feel like it's better to submit a proposal, write something up, and hand it to the administrator? Thoughts?
Kelli Fetter
Yeah. I think it just. I wish there was like a a really simple answer to that, but I can tell you that it is so dependent on every school, every district, every state. Even some schools are like so receptive, and they are eager to see the research and to implement the latest evidence, and some are just so resistant, and so it really likely just depends on the school system that you are in and what their capacity is, and and so with that said, it's okay if you just start in that one classroom because, like you said, it it can have a ripple effect, and and of course, if that then leads you to this big proposal, and you know, great. But it's okay if you need to just start there with just a small group or one classroom at a time, and and grow it from from there. PTA is another way to just get some nice traction as well. Getting the parents, I had a parent email me this week about like there's you know, and again this is so common. The school, their child's school, is pushing tech, and they're like, she's like, they won't even consider handwriting. They're just like tech, tech, tech, you know. And she's like, can you point me towards research to to really show them the impact and the importance of writing by hand, and to hopefully shift their their thinking and this big picture, right? Which I at first was like, "Wow, way to go! Like it's a big thing to take on as a parent, but yeah, yeah, like we need parents, we need individuals. We might be the only one in that whole school screaming it, but.
Jayson Davies
I love that.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, it needs to happen.
Jayson Davies
I advocate for the same thing. Like parents can be, you know, sometimes we have tough times with parents, but parents can also be our greatest advocate, especially when it comes to to this topic. I think, and you know, if parents want the schools to focus on handwriting? The schools will focus on handwriting because parents will make us think about it. They will talk to the administrators. Like we don't have to even ask them to. They will talk to administrators. They will go to board meetings. They will, you know, they will come up with with solutions. Sometimes when there is a problem, of course, that they're they're very passionate about. So absolutely, yeah. Now I don't expect you to have all the titles and names and journals and authors off the top of your head but you you've mentioned research kind of on best practices and also maybe research that points away from some of the the age old traditions and thought processes when it comes to handwriting. What where do you tend to look for, and what is? What are you finding? What are they saying about handwriting?
Kelli Fetter
Yeah. So I am working on a book, which I know I've shared with you before. So hopefully, it will be very accessible for people, so that they don't have to scour the internet for hours and hours to find this research. But I have done a major deep dive, like I said, looking at all different areas and fields to to collate and collaborate and synthesize all of it. But essentially, a couple of the leaders, Dr. Berninger, Dr. Wolf, are big leaders in the science of writing. Dr. Chang and Patel Zwicker is another name that comes to the top of my head that have multiple articles. But here's a little tip, a little AI tip. You can also just drop in AI and ask it for, and then of course do your vetting. Like click through the article, read the article. Make sure it's like sound. But that's a good, easy, quick way if you're in the heat of the moment. And yeah, you're like, what's the research actually say about this? It's a good, quick, easy way to to to get that going. But again, hopefully, my also my goal is to build out somewhere on our website kind of a landing page of research because people have been asking. I get asked about that all the time from parents, from OT practitioners, from teachers. Like, what is the research actually saying? And I think you know, going back to this whole shift, my co-author and I talk a lot about this this top down versus bottom up approach, and she is more. She's a works with students with dyslexia, and so she is coming at it from mostly a bottom up because the reading tutors are handling that top down approach. So it's interesting in this nuance of okay, and I. I tend to come at it from a top-down approach with handwriting at handwriting solutions. But then, what I would recommend, say for a school-based or an outpatient OT practitioner, may look a little bit different in some ways because they might also need to be addressing some bottom-up foundational skills. It's just that leaving off the top down that is often missed in traditional OT.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. Okay. Well, let let's come back to that topic. I want to. That's exactly where I was going next. But real quick question: You listed off a bunch of names of authors within the science of of handwriting, science of writing, is that primarily in the psychologist world, neuropsych world? That is a good question.
Kelli Fetter
Probably all over. Yeah, all over. Yeah, I have seen more publications in AOTA lately, though that has been refreshing. But yeah, I would say all over.
Jayson Davies
Okay, perfect. Now let's talk about that bottom up, top down, because I hate so many of the conversations that we have in the world of occupational therapy, sensory versus behavior, and the other is definitely you know top down or bottom up. You have alluded to something I very much appreciated. You know, kind of you got to go both ways a little bit here. You got to kind of come at this from from two directions. Handwriting is complex. There's a lot of factors, right? And you know we we often talk whether or not pencil grip matters, whether or not fine motor skills matter, all that. And then you have the other side of the conversation, like it's just you got to practice it. You practice, practice, practice. Handwriting is complex. Can we just acknowledge the handwriting is complex?
Kelli Fetter
Yes, please. Yeah, it's complex, and therefore it takes a team. Like it takes a team. We're not going to be the end all, be all. Like wave our magic wand for dysgraphia and handwriting. It has to be a team. That's why we, in my business, we pulled in my daughter's dyslexia tutor because I was like, okay, great, we got handwriting to a really functional skill or level, and then the plateau happened because of spelling. So now we need to pull in a specialist for spelling. So it's so convoluted and nuanced, and we can't just be the only one, but we should be. Okay, one of the big ones, yeah.
Jayson Davies
So let's role play this, right? Like if we're on an IEP team, we got a teacher, you got the OT, we got a speech therapist all involved, right? General ed and special education teacher. Now we're going to write a goal, you know, for the student to legibly write. We'll just say it's a sentence or two sentences.
Kelli Fetter
Yep.
Jayson Davies
How is that beyond an OT goal, and give me some examples about how you work as a team.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, so obviously the OT role easy. Like we're looking at the actual functional skill of handwriting, as well as those foundational skills, those underlying performance skills. Gen Ed, special ed, obviously, if they are getting any sort of pullout services for spelling, for grammar, for syntax, for SLP can kind of overlap with that too. I think it's funny in the SLP world they kind of have a similar conversation of whose role is it? Is it the SLP role for dyslexia, or is it the special ed role for dyslexia? Interesting. Yeah, because they can address phonological skills and phonemic proficiency and.
Jayson Davies
Makes sense.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, fluency and you know on and on and on. So.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
but I I'm of the like we don't need to necessarily like divide. Like here's what you get to do and here's what you like. I think if we're all coming together and addressing the big goal, which I I love that goal. Right, that's a very functional goal that every team member can contribute to, then that's really how the student is going to thrive. And like you said, if we're only working with a student 15 minutes once a week, that's really hard to make progress. But if I'm working on it, and the speech therapist is working on it, and the special education team is working.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
those minutes add up, and it's it's compounding and addressing parts, but also addressing the whole, to hopefully lead to faster progress.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. Now thinking about the OT role and going back to that discussion about top down, bottom up. Do I guess how do we make a session? Right, we got 30 minutes with a student. How do we make a session? How do we build this session that incorporates both a little bit of each of that top down and bottom up?
Kelli Fetter
Okay, great question. I love this. Okay, so let's pretend that we're going to the gym, and we want to get stronger, and but we we can only go to the gym 30 minutes once per week. Yeah, exactly. That's gonna it's gonna take off a bit to really get measurable strength, or if strength is your goal, that's currently my goal. But it's gonna. Take a moment. So, what if we use those 30 minutes to work on maybe some performance? You know, some some top down, like some reps, get some reps in, some observations, some educating the teacher who is with that student. Those rest of the minutes, that's where it becomes way more powerful, and I would argue if we can have more touch points with that student in the week, which I know is a huge dynamic system shift. So it's going to take us a while to get there. Yeah, but if we can maybe have two touch points a week with that student versus one, I think we're going to see faster and better outcomes. Just like if you're going to the gym twice a week versus once a week.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
it's kind of how I think about it.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and and we talked a moment ago about collaborative goals, right? Yes, and I think that lends itself a little bit to maybe that second touch point isn't us, but if that second touch point is the RSP teacher focusing a little bit on handwriting or the general education teacher, that that's still a touch point that has been influenced by you being on the IEP team.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, and same thing, you know, if the goal is is the foundational skill building, again, we're not going to strengthen hands in 15 minutes once a week. Like that's just impossible. So yeah, how can we make sure that that's happening outside of our therapy session, but also parent leveraging the parent too, and and really getting. I know that's trickier in a school based setting than say an outpatient setting, but for us in like how we do things at handring solutions is it is so evident when parents are active and engaged and carrying over versus when they're not.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
So I think that could be underutilized superpower of ours.
Jayson Davies
Oh, absolutely! Parents are are amazing. Now, for a long time, it was kind of thought if you work on fine motor skills, you will improve handwriting. I think we've kind of put that to rest, and we are almost at a point. And and of course, not everybody, but we're seeing this switch to that more top top down approach, where it's like if you want to improve handwriting, you just have to improve handwriting or work on handwriting. You mentioned earlier that we're starting to see research that's kind of pointing a little bit to to not one or the other, but a and you know the the underlining skills and the actual act of handwriting. Can you elaborate a little bit more on what that what you're finding in that research?
Kelli Fetter
Yeah. So I think so. For example, the grasp, our you know debate, right? Of like does grasp matter? And so oftentimes a pencil grasp is not functional because of weak hand muscles, and so in that case, we have to have that bottom-up approach to to improve the grasp, which will then improve their pencil control, and that top-down approach as well. So I think that's where the the nuances and the research is. I just I I don't tend to be like an extremist of okay, we've shifted completely from bottom up to completely top down. I just think that is more nuanced than than that, and we have to really individualize. I mean, that's what we do best, right? Is individualize to each student. Some students, that's that's you know you shift your framework based on the student too.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I think I mean that's why the occupational profile, which we had an episode about a few weeks ago, is is so important. Understanding the goals and understanding where the student is. One of the things that I, you know, research is so important, but research is still limiting you to the information that you have on the six pages of that article, and I think that there's a lot of missing information there that if we had would kind of flip the script on some of our articles because in the articles we are told baselines on assessments, right? We are told where the student started on the handwriting without tier screener, or where they started on the edge and where they ended up at the end. But it doesn't tell us where the student fell on the edge baseline and post. Who was the one student in the 20 or 30 kids identified that had a non-functional grasp, and that student is naturally lumped in with everybody, and we don't know the results of that one student. That you know, the one student out of 20 who had a non-functional grasp. Maybe that student didn't benefit from the Learning Without Tears program or from an. The other programs that are being tested, so that that's a piece that we miss in the research. And you know, unless you do get a study of one individual student with a pencil graph that's non-functional.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah.
Jayson Davies
like those studies, I don't know that exist.
Kelli Fetter
Right. Well, and yeah, that's it because yeah, research in and of itself has to be so narrow to measure these outcomes, and so it's rare to measure the outcome of multiple factors. There is one research, and I'm blanking on the researcher. I want to say, yeah, I'll dig it up, and we'll put it in the show notes.
Jayson Davies
We'll put it in the notes.
Kelli Fetter
and it looked at. It was one of the few that actually did look at a like bottom up approach only a sensory motor approach combined with handwriting instruction, and then I think just the handwriting instruction. I forget I could be misquoting that, but I know that the the outcome.
Jayson Davies
I think I know the article you're talking about. Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
The outcome was the sensory motor approach coupled with the handwriting instruction led to the best outcome? That's pretty powerful for us, I think. Yeah, to kind of again come at it from from both angles, depending on the student.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, man, the nuances. One of the terms I've been hearing more, and and I really actually like this term because you know handwriting is getting a kind of you know it's it's that UG term. Whenever someone in school-based OT hears handwriting, they just kind of give a shrug. But we're starting to to use the term written expression, and I like this term because it written expression is used by teachers in multiple ways. Versus handwriting is very strict handwriting. What are your thoughts on that term, written expression, and the role we have as occupational therapy practitioners, both maybe handwriting and beyond?
Kelli Fetter
So I like there's a new image again, kind of played off of the science of reading. There's the reading rope in the reading world, and so I believe it was a researcher came up with the writing rope, and it's a really great visual for us as OT practitioners and for the schools in general to look at because it does kind of break apart those written expression pieces and parts and that transcription, which is basically the handwriting and the spelling part, and I love that as the written expression term because a that's what the diagnosis is typically called specific learning disability in written expression. B it is more all encompassing, so it does feel like we it lends itself more to okay. Well, we can have a role, and SLP can have a role in written expression, and again, that that collaborative approach. But look up, definitely look up that that writing rope because I think it is just a really solid visual. So we can say, oh, okay, there's our role. Like, pinpoint that.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, we're going to take our final break, and when we come back, I've got a question about auto mass, automaticity, automaticity, and you know, making sure that our students can actually write fluently because I know that comes up a lot. So we'll be right back. All right, Kelly. We've all had the student that when we work in the OT room, they've got it down. They can copy the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog, no problem. But we get back into the classroom, and the work samples from the classroom are just they they don't they don't measure up to what's needed, right? And they can't keep up in the classroom. Thoughts on that?
Kelli Fetter
Oh yes, I've got thoughts on that. So I have this conversation a lot, and we actually developed a whole like framework to conceptualize this, looking at the cognitive load. So I've seen sometimes OTs in Facebook groups again. They'll say, you know, what do you think about this student? And it's just a copy model, and that cognitive load is not matching the cognitive load that they will need in the classroom. So when I am teaching professionals or parents about this, I frame it as you know that that basic easiest lowest level cognitive load is typically the tracing or the imitation, and then the next load is the copying from near point, and then copying from far point, and then writing from dictation where the teacher is telling them what to write, and they write it, and then that highest cognitive load is that self-generated thoughts. The problem is if we're only working on copy skills and OT sessions, but they're expected to write from self-generated thoughts. That's why it's that's why it's breaking down. So we kind of have to scaffold and go. You know, work backwards and build up those foundations first, and bring them to that next highest cognitive load level, and then of course accommodate and support them as they are working their way up. Yeah, because the cognitive load in the classroom, not to mention, like yes, the writing output cognitive load is heavier, but also yeah, there's the sensory aspect, and one of my favorite activities that I do when sometimes when we do workshops is have parents or professionals copy like different figures, and it could be reversed and upside down and a mixture of print and cursive, and they have to do it with their non-dominant hand, and then I read to them while they are doing it, and at the end I'm like, "Who can tell me what I told just talked about? And they're like, "No, I thought we were doing a writing test. And that's it. I'm like, "That's the easiest and best way to really get them to understand cognitive load and how in the classroom it's like they can only have the bandwidth for so that's when it all falls apart and usually handwriting is the first thing to fall apart because they're so they're thinking so hard about like what do I want to write what was that really good idea oh yeah that okay spelling falls off handwriting falls off is like the top, the top two. So if we can automate handwriting in a safer space, and then bridge it up, you know, up the level of cognitive load, and then if they can get that spelling support, where that is more automated as well, that is how we reach automaticity in the classroom.
Jayson Davies
Perfect. perfect. We're going to come right back to that in a moment. You mentioned the different ways that you're going to assess handwriting, different levels, right? Copying, and then move your way up to eventually writing from their own their own thought processes. Is there a particular tool that you like to use for doing that, or do you just kind of, you know, I write down a few letters, let them copy it. I write down a few words, let them copy it, and then I give them a sentence to write.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, we. I mean, there's a variety, of course, handwriting assessments out there. I just don't love. I'm not like married to any of them. Maybe one day I'll have to like come up with my own screener or whatever. But basically, that's what we've done. Is we've kind of when we have handwriting assessments. We have built out our own process for looking at all of those pieces and parts, and then we measure like to get some data. We measure, you know, letters per minute or words per minute.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
And then measuring like found or like mechanical skills too of line placement and sizing and spacing and starting, and sequencing, and all of that. But yeah, it's like there's just there's really not a gold standard handwriting assessment. There are a lot of options, and I will say something is better than nothing. So yeah, we absolutely should be assessing handwriting in whatever modality and means that you have.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I mean, I've used. I think we've all used the THSR. We've used the etch. I I like the etch. It's short and it does have most of those components that you're talking about. So that's one that I've used. The McMaster standardized. I believe it's the THSR. What's that?
Kelli Fetter
The McMaster is another one. The cost. Decos. Yeah, yeah. I'm like decost.
Jayson Davies
Yep.
Kelli Fetter
Yep. Yep.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. So there's some out there.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So usually it's like whatever is handy in your school is fine, and then you just fill in the gaps, you know. Yeah. Based on those levels. And to be honest, if you don't have you know access to one of those, it really isn't that much different than like what Kelly just said. You know, just have them copy a sentence, have them write out a sentence from dictation, have them write a sentence from their own thoughts. And once you have that, you can easily compare the difference between copying and writing from their own thoughts. If there's a big difference, what does that mean, Kelly? From yeah, we see we see that a lot. That and that is one of the most powerful visuals that we share with parents because I'm like, look, no cognitive load. They can write their alphabet fine. Look at what happens when we add cognitive load. You can't read it, and so that indicates a few things. That indicates, you know, then you go back to that written expression piece of where where are the gaps? So is it a handwriting automaticity thing? Often it is. Is it a working memory? Is it a processing speed? Again, going back to the spelling, it's like they get so hung up on that and the grammar. It could be a variety of factors, for sure.
Jayson Davies
Okay. So to what degree can OT going back to that, right? A student is able to copy no problem, cognitive load increases their their handwriting decreases. How can OT support that automaticity to decrease the cognitive load? Is that our role?
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, I think. Definitely, is our role in parts. So, looking at the executive function is a big area that you can see that kind of fall apart. Ensuring that they are actually automatic because copying is easier because you've got the visual. But is it a true automaticity? Are they? Do they have that visual memory of the letters? Because if you take that visual off, you know, away from them, can they still have the visualization of what that letter is supposed to look like? Sometimes, and this is in like extreme cases or with younger kids, when you remove that visual, they draw the letter. You bring the visual back, they're writing the letter okay. The you know so it's interesting to see kind of how that how that plays out in their in their their brain and their neurology. But I will say that you never even if a child is strong in copy that does not indicate automaticity, and true automaticity only comes from being able to self-generate thoughts without the visual.
Jayson Davies
So I hope my faces over here did not like make you get confused because I'm over here thinking about everything you're saying, and hopefully we get this on YouTube eventually. But so everyone can see. But how do we not have a standardized version of how long it takes a kid at every grade level to write the Quick Brown Fox jumps over the lazy dog? Like
Kelli Fetter
I know.
Jayson Davies
Wouldn't it be the simplest thing, like assessment tool ever, to just have first graders all around the country, second graders all around the country, just write from their own rote memory, the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. I mean, or something, right? Write, write one sentence. How long does it take to write out, you know, 20 characters or something like? Yeah, we should have that.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely data that is more broad in that, and that's what we pull from is like x number of words per minute based on grade level, but it doesn't break down the cognitive load, and that's where it's frustrating. So we'll see that a kid is faster with copy, but way slower with with dictation, or way slower with with the self generated thoughts. And so it'd be really interesting if somebody will do a study on breaking that down and like what should the expected pacing be for those various cognitive loads because it's hard to compare, right? Like copy pacing versus I mean even as adults, you know.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah, it'd be interesting. And that's what leads to the difficulty with the research that's out there because we don't know the cognitive load of the research presented, and we also don't know any other factors about the individual students and and all that. You know, we're getting a general. Okay, you talked about like the the spelling issue, and obviously this is the cognitive load issue. If you are kind of seeing that where a student, they're obviously getting slowed down because it's just hard for them to remember how to spell words, and it's the grammar. That's what's really slowing them down. Do you try to? I mean, you mentioned executive functioning, but do you attempt to address this, or is that something that we try and work more closely with the teacher, let them know what we're seeing and and maybe what they can do? Any any thoughts?
Kelli Fetter
I think all all of the above. I think consulting and collaborating with the teacher absolutely making sure they are getting explicit and systematic instruction in spelling because often they may not be. It seems like that's fallen off of the curricula in a lot of schools too. They teach reading, and then they're like, "Okay, we're good. And really, reading instruction needs to extend third, fourth, fifth grade to to get that encoding, which is spelling. Spelling falls into the encoding as OT practitioners, what we can do is scaffold, and so you know, scaffold for their executive functions, scaffold for their spelling, as well as maybe pull in some memory tools, some graphic organizers, some other external strategies that might support them in the moment while they're building those spelling skills outside of our sessions, and I think that our role could definitely be powerful in that.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, man, so many. We only got to like a third of the questions that we actually planned for today, but I'm glad because all the all the discussions we've had today I think are going to be so helpful for everyone listening. We got to start to wrap up here, and one thing that I find really cool that you've done is you started to develop summer camps, and you're even helping other people to develop summer camps in handwriting. Now. For the everyday school-based occupational therapy practitioner, they may not be interested in a summer camp. However, I do want to pick your brain on how they can use this idea, this concept of a handwriting camp within their school-based OT practice. So I'd love to get just your thoughts on that because you have that experience.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, I think there's actually been an article come out. I'll have to dig for this as well about a club model, like a handwriting club in a school system, and I think that could be so powerful and something the OTs could really capitalize on. And you know, as far as what that looks like logistically, it would you know depend on your situation. But even if it was once twice a week, that would be powerful. Our camp model is actually four days a week back to back. You hit that motor learning really hard. Of course, it's not like then we we don't say okay, you're done, you're good to go, bye bye. Like then we have like you know a follow up plan with the family, extended practice opportunities, and then sometimes they filter into our one on one tutoring model. But why I love the camp and the club that intensive model is it kind of goes back to if if OT practitioners are listening, that more episodic approach to therapy, which is really really powerful when it comes to motor learning theory. If we can hit the skills really intensive for a short time, and then kind of take a step back and let them, you know, apply those skills, and then maybe check in, do some touch points later on. To me, that can be a more powerful and effective model than stretching, you know, this intervention out.
Jayson Davies
30 times a year.
Kelli Fetter
That's right.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
I would rather do 30. If we're doing 30 times a year, I would rather let's like go really intensive and then let's space out those last few. Again.
Jayson Davies
So when you say intensive, you mentioned four days a week. How many hours, or is it one hour or 30? It's an hour.
Kelli Fetter
Yep, an hour a day. Very like I mean, when you look at our structure, they're not writing. They're they're not pencil to paper for that whole hour. So yeah, yeah. You know, we we do very intentional brain body warm ups, hand warm ups to get their their bodies and their brain ready to write. We do multi sensory sensory motor warm ups and handwriting lessons, and then really about maybe 20 minutes of that is pencil to paper, depending on the student's age. More longer if they're older, less maybe if they are younger. But they're still writing. You know, there might be writing on a chalkboard or a dry erase board or in sand or whatever. Yeah. But it really is some of these before and afters. Like the pictures speak 1000 words, and it it's amazing what those. It's less time for them to forget if they just did it yesterday and then they're doing it again today. There, you don't have that regression, that skill loss. yeah.
Jayson Davies
There's a reason that kids go to school every day for five days a week for five hours or for 180 consecutive days for the same exact reason. Did Did you say how long are they a week long, two week long, four weeks long?
Kelli Fetter
Right now we're doing four, just one week, four days. But typically we'll recommend four days. Okay, yeah. So it's a short burst. It is instructional level only. So I say that you know if they need more of a remedial level, they're gonna need more than four days. But and and again, it's not like we wave our magic wand and they're good to go. They still have to do that outside work to achieve the automaticity. But what it does is give them the foundation, four days of foundational handwriting instruction, which so many kids don't have so.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and I, I think this would be a perfect tier two MTSS program, right? Like we just kind of work with our administrator and say, you know what, maybe if four weeks after the school year starts, I'm going to host this little two week program and kindergarten teachers can basically recommend any student to be a part of that program. They are the ones referring kids to the program, not the OT going to evaluate them. And you have this little program that might prevent four assessments throughout the rest of the school year, which, to be honest, is going to be less time than the camp itself. So you're kind of replacing four four hour assessments later in the school year with you know 10 hours of of camp.
Kelli Fetter
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I love that. I love that model. I'm here for it. I mean it is.
Jayson Davies
All right.
Kelli Fetter
It is so powerful. I just can't say.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
And that's why. So this will be interesting too. Initially, when I very first started Henry Solutions, we did a once a week model, and I quickly learned no, it's twice a week, a minimum twice a week that we are working with students, and that's one on one, of course.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Kelli Fetter
and. It's amazing to see how much faster their gains are. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
I mean, it totally makes sense. We know that you know professional athletes aren't learning to be professional athletes one time a week.
Kelli Fetter
That's right.
Jayson Davies
Kids are going to school to do learn to do reading, math, everything a lot more than one time a week, and so I don't know why we think that we should be so magical to to help a student with handwriting in one time a week?
Kelli Fetter
That's right. I mean, I wish.
Jayson Davies
There's no research out there that points.
Kelli Fetter
to it. No, no. Well, I always use yeah for parents. Sometimes I explain it as exactly like you said. Like if I wanted to learn how to golf. Okay, well I could grab my golf clubs and go to the golf course and hit once a week, and it would take me a really long time. But if I hired a golf professional and they gave me some lessons, and then I practice a few times on the off days, yeah, I still probably won't be great. But I'll be, I'll be doing better. I'll be doing better than I was. Right, right. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. We're gonna see Kelli out there on Thursdays, Fridays through Sundays on on TV soon. Now, all right, Kelli, it has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. This has been a great conversation. I know it's going to help a lot of practitioners. Where can everyone go to learn more about you and everything you got going on?
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, we've got a lot going on. So it's handwriting solutions.org is our website? You will see tabs for parents, tabs for professionals or educators, OTs. As I mentioned, I am working very diligently on getting this book out. So TBD on when it will actually be out. But we are building a course for OT practitioners that will hopefully launch this fall. So I will make sure that we include a link in the show notes so that you can kind of sign up on a wait list or get in on our email list. We send weekly emails, very educational, zero fluff. As with Jayson's emails, they're just I love Jayson's emails every week. It's yep. You're welcome.
Jayson Davies
I love yours too.
Kelli Fetter
Thanks.
Jayson Davies
They're one of the few that I actually stay subscribed to, so no, I can attest to them as well.
Kelli Fetter
Yeah, yeah, very powerful. And then yeah, we're always doing workshops and trainings, and just it is a passion of mine. If you can't tell, so and I think comes from a genuine place of you know living the struggle, and so I want to empower as many OT practitioners as possible. So yeah. Also, we're on Instagram, we're on Facebook, we're on LinkedIn. I can probably drop a freebie as well. So make sure you check the show notes for a little little special freebie for the OT school house listeners.
Jayson Davies
Perfect. Yes, check it out. Head on over to the show notes. The link is right down here, or just head on over to OTSchoolHouse comm podcast, and you'll see Kelli's episode and click there, and you'll have all the links that we talked about. We're going to do our best to dig up as much of that research that we discussed today, put them into the show notes to make it nice and easy for you all, Kelli. Thank you so much for being here. Really, really appreciate it. I know we're gonna have to do this again sometime. Maybe when that book comes out, we can we can do another one. It's Penny, right? You're working with Penny.
Kelli Fetter
Yes. On that. Yep.
Jayson Davies
Awesome. Yes. So we'll have to get both of you on here and do a nice little dyslexia dysgraphia session together.
Kelli Fetter
Love that.
Jayson Davies
It has been a pleasure. Thank you so much, and we'll definitely keep in touch. Take care.
Kelli Fetter
Yep, thank you.
Jayson Davies
Okay, that is a wrap on episode number 205 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Thank you so much for being here, and a huge thank you goes out to Kelly from Handwriting Solutions for joining us today and sharing her expertise around dysgraphia and handwriting support in schools. I cannot wait until that book comes out that she teases about both dysgraphia and dyslexia. That's going to be amazing. Make sure to check out the show notes at otschoolhouse.com/episode 205205 for all the links to Kelly's website, her Instagram, and all the resources that we mentioned today. Especially for this episode, that is going to be super important for you. And of course, thank you for listening. Like seriously, you show up for your students every single day, and even in the heat of summer, like many of us are right now, you're here listening to a podcast, thinking about your students and how you can better yourself for your students. Episodes like this one only exists because of your drive to keep learning and growing as a practitioner, and I cannot thank you enough for showing up here today and listening to the podcast. Now, if you want to keep that momentum going, I would love to have you join our school-based OT collaborative. It is the community that we have built specifically for school-based OT practitioners, just like you, it is packed with resources, professional development, CEUs, mentorship, all that great stuff. And you can learn all about it over at otschoolhouse.com/collab. That's otschoolhouse.com/colab to learn more and join us today. Until next time, take care. Enjoy your summer.
Amazing Narrator
Thank you for listening to the OT Schoolhouse podcast. For more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com. Until next time, class is dismissed.
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