OTS 24: The 8th Sense and More Featuring Cara Koscinski, MOT, OTR/L of PocketOT.com
- Jayson Davies
- Feb 18, 2019
- 42 min read
Updated: Apr 17
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 24 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
In this episode, Jayson interviews occupational therapist, Cara Koscinski, OTR/L. Cara is the amazing OT that runs one of our favorite blogs, PocketOT.com. In this episode, Cara discusses her new book, "Interoception" also dubbed "the 8th sense." On her website, you will find not only frequent blog posts, but also several books she has authored, CDs she has recorded, and professional development webinars geared toward pediatric and school-based therapists. We highly recommend that you check out her website.
Listen in to learn more about Cara and all of the fantastic knowledge she has to share. Listen all the way through for a special discount code you can use to purchase any items from PocketOT.com
Links to Show References:
Quick reminder: Links below may be affiliate links. Affiliate links benefit the OT Schoolhouse at no additional cost to you
The below references were mentioned throughout Episode 24
Webinars (Use this link to view all of the below webinars)
Is It Sensory or Is It Behavior?
Pediatric OT Primer
Executive Function Disorder
Learning Disabilities and ADHD
Trauma-Informed Care
Building Healthy Brains
Business of OT 101
Other mentioned links
Sonia Story's (Move Play Thrive) Brain & Sensory Foundations Level 1 online course
Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs.
Have any questions or comments about the podcast? Email Jayson at Jayson@otschoolhouse.com
Well,
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Episode Transcript
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Amazing Narrator
Hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast. Your source for the latest school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and research now to get the conversation started, here are your hosts, Jayson and Abby. Class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Hey everyone, and welcome to episode number 24 of the OT school health podcast. My name is Jayson Davies, and I am an Occupational Therapist here in Southern California, and I just want to take a minute to welcome everyone. You are all in for a very special treat. Today we have a special guest. Her name is Cara Koscinski, also known as the pocket ot from Pocket ot.com pocket ot.com. Is actually a fellow occupational therapy blog, Cara, over there, has kind of been a huge inspiration for us here at ot school house. She is kind of the quote, unquote, original ot blogger, and she is just amazing. She gives so much insightful information here in a minute, and she just honestly doesn't hold back. So we actually do a really cool lightning round where she just kind of, uh, spits off whatever I kind of throw at her, and so, uh, stay tuned for that. That's kind of near the end, but you won't want to miss this episode. I guarantee it. I was super excited when I got off of the Skype call with her, and I can't wait to share it with you first, real quick. I do want to mention that all the show notes from this episode will be posted at ot schoolhouse.com forward slash episode 24 and some of those links are what's called affiliate links. Affiliate links. Hope the OT school house earn a commission when you use those links at no additional cost to you. So when you use those links to purchase something at maybe pocket ot.com or at Amazon, it helps us without without charging you anymore. In fact, sometimes we're even able to get you a discount, like we might have later today. Hint, hint, so be sure to listen all the way through for the lightning round, a little helpful code for you all. And then lastly, I just want to say it's been coming in more steadily now, and I love sending out the certificate of completions. I just love that you all are enjoying the podcast and earning professional development at the same time. Couldn't be more appreciative for you all, and I look forward to continuing providing the occupational therapy professional development opportunities. Not so much for this episode, but there will be more in the future. So back to today's topic. Today we have on, like I said, Cara Koscinski, she is the pocket ot from Pocket ot.com she is so much more. She's working on her doctorate. She has webinars at pocket OT. She's soon to be traveling the nation, providing in services for OTs you'll likely find her somewhere in the United States in the next year or so. And if you do, I'm just gonna say now I highly recommend her courses. So just look out for the name Cara Koscinski. But you know, right now I'm gonna give her the opportunity to introduce herself. So let's get started with the interview. Here's Cara Koscinski from Pocket ot.com Hey, Cara, welcome to episode number 24 of the OT school house podcast. How are you doing today?
Cara Koscinski
Great. Jayson, how are you?
Jayson Davies
I'm doing well, I'm so happy to have you on. You are kind of one of the original ot bloggers, and you're one of the first blogs of OT that I really came across. And I'm just so happy to have you on. So first of all, I want to give you an opportunity to kind of introduce yourself, a little bit about your you know, just you as an OT, who you are.
Cara Koscinski
So I've been an OT for for 20, almost 22 years, and I was one of the first to get my master's degree in occupational therapy. It had just gone to the master's program when I went, and it was really a cool program. And then when I graduated, I did not like pediatrics at all. I thought, oh my gosh, no way am I ever working with kids. So I work with adults. And then I did hand therapy, and then I had my children in the year 2002 1002 and they were both diagnosed with autism. So at that point, I thought, Oh my gosh. So I quit my job for a little bit, and I went back, and I thought, I'm going to learn everything about pediatric therapy, because it was so overwhelming with both of them being so little. So I took every single course I could in pediatric OT. It was like a third field work. Oh, wow, yeah, yeah. And I Yeah, and I attended all their sessions, and I kind of took the good and left the bad and just started working with my kids. And then what happened for the pediatric part was that I met a friend and we started a we said, oh, let's start an OT and she was a speech pathologist private practice. We started with one patient in her basement, and we went to three offices, tons of schools and early intervention within two years. Pretty crazy and fun, yeah.
Jayson Davies
And that was really the time that treatment for autism was kind of blowing up. I mean, a lot more people were being diagnosed with it, and in the schools, they were kind of overwhelmed, in a way, weren't they?
Cara Koscinski
You were, and it's interesting you say that Jayson, because I remember it just being on 60 minutes as this new epidemic. And I remember thinking, wow, I hope my kids don't have that. And they, you know, just right around their diagnosis time. And. The thing that boosted our clinic at the time was this thing, this premise that we really did specialize in autism, and we are one of the first clinics to do this utilize the sensory integration treatment techniques. So we had suspension equipment in all the rooms, and we it was really neat. And I think that's what grew us so quickly, is that we really had a nice specialty, and I think that's too what has grown my business as the pocket occupational therapist is the fact that I do specialize only, mostly in autism and sensory related disorders. So it's it's really nice to see how many people have benefited through these years. Of all this material I've created.
Jayson Davies
Great so I wanted to ask two follow up questions to that. One, was there one specific course that you remember taking that you're like, oh my gosh, this is what I needed.
Cara Koscinski
Wow. I can tell you one specific book that I read. It was, yeah, this will hopefully help people. Is Carol cranovitz, the out of sync child, oh yes, that is the book that I truly changed everything for me as a clinician and as a mama, because it really opened my eyes to a lot of these new things that my kids were experiencing. So for example, my kids were not eating, and they were super picky, and I didn't know why, and the therapist wasn't sure why. So this, this out of sync child, what came along and changed my whole life. And an interesting fact is that I am friends with Carol cranitz now, and we're actually spending, though, we speak at a conference here in Charlotte this coming weekend, and we're having a girls night the night before. It's just we've become friends, and it's just, I always have her sign my book. It's just really cool, because just to be know her and know how much she's changed my life and lots of other lives, has been neat. But now there's this follow up to her book, The out of sync child has fun, yes, with all these fun activities, and yeah, that's, that's the book that changed everything for me.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I actually will recommend that book in IEPs, especially, you know, for younger kids, especially for those parents that just kind of, they don't have a diagnosis for their kid. And, you know, maybe the kid isn't on to autistic, or they don't have autism, but they just, they know something's off with their kid. And so I often recommend that one just kind of, this is the book to start with.
Cara Koscinski
Yeah, absolutely. It's hard to hear too. You know, it's hard for us because we can't diagnose anything, and it's really we have to tiptoe around it. So that book is perfect for that purpose.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. So you did mention your kids, and I know they are very I mean, they're your world. I know you, you, you talk about them on the blog. There you have pictures of them. I want to give you a second to give a shout out to them, or talk a little bit about them, what's going on in their lives?
Cara Koscinski
Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited. So yeah, they've changed when my my older son is now 18, he wasn't diagnosed when he was three, and my younger son is 16, and he was diagnosed at 18 months. So he was pretty. You know, they knew it. It was at that time they didn't want to diagnose until 18 months. So he was pretty severe at that time, but I remember them saying, when both of my kids were diagnosed, you know, Kara, you could fall off a ladder and get hurt, and your kids would never even cry or look at you. And I thought that was so horrible, yeah, so I have that picture all the time, but that's not what it's like, no way. So Jacob is the 18 year old, and he's in college now. He has a 504 plan, but he is, he got a full scholarship to a university by us, so he's free. Med, yeah, he's doing great, and I'm real happy about that. He has got a girlfriend, and he's, you know, quirky kid, so it's really nice. He's not healed. I don't, you know, my personal belief isn't that autism is something you heal from. It's just something you learn to accept and love about yourself. Yeah, and then Joshua, he's going to be with us, probably for his life, and we homeschool him and but, you know, he has a fun life. They're loving nice kids. So I think it's definitely a misperception that kids with autism aren't loving because they love They're really sweet boys, absolutely.
Jayson Davies
And it's always, I do have the chance to work at a high school and and we get to see some of our kids with autism, and when they do see their parents, I mean, you can see how different they are when it comes to being with their parents versus a teacher at school or the OT at school. And it's just, they definitely love their parents. You are right.
Cara Koscinski
Yeah, there's they're capable of so many things. And yeah, it just frustrates me. But I always think about that ladder, and every time I even touch a ladder, I think, oh my gosh, if I fell off this ladder right now, my kids would be devastated. I hate those generalized statements that clinicians make, and sometimes I mistakenly make them too. But geez, Louise, I don't like those blanket statements. They, you know, they're kind of discriminatory, and they have may kind of deflate parents, and that makes me sad.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, absolutely and definitely, as a specialist, you know, we're kind of used to seeing it in a certain clinic or in the school, and I get caught up. When I see someone with a disability outside of that realm, and for someone who doesn't know I'm an OT and kind of thinking, well, how can I approach this parent? How can I approach this kid and say hi and, you know, just say hello and that good stuff. But as specialists, we do sometimes lose sense of reality. And, you know, we got to be kind in both settings.
Cara Koscinski
I know for sure, and sensitivity training is something that I'm super when I do any kind of training anywhere I travel, I really try to emphasize that somewhere in the training, because we really don't want to hurt feelings or deflate parents. We want to give them hope, and that's what we really should do as OTs and just as humans in general. But that's important to me for sure, because I've been hopeless and it's no fun.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned that you started out with adults working with hands, then you opened up a clinic with your SLP friend. Where did your ot career take you from there?
Cara Koscinski
So I sold that to move down to Charleston. That was in Pittsburgh, and it still exists today in Pittsburgh. Yeah. So it's just doing as well as ever. But I sold my part of that to move and follow our dreams. My husband and I wanted to move down to Charleston, South Carolina, so we lived. So at that point, I started really getting into the blog. I mean, my pocket ot blog, or our blog, used to be called Root to greatness. And this is interesting. I don't think you know this, Jason, but we my husband, I started the word root to greatness came because, you know how kids with autism sometimes have, like, an area of interest or something, they can stem on. So my older son, he is an expert in maps and roads. So he was drawing notebooks and notebooks a full of roads that would go through the country. And he was infatuated about, if you'd say, like, I don't know St Louis, he could tell you every major highway. Oh, wow, it would go through St Louis. So we thought, what can we name this business? So we are like, root to greatness.
Jayson Davies
Like, root, as in, like, R, O, U, T, not our OT.
Cara Koscinski
That's right, yeah, so, but we at that, that business we sold, kind of merged that into the pocket. OT, but what we did create was CDs for kids that are afraid of loud noises, so they are what we we had a music therapist and a recording studio, and we put rhythm that's kind of grounds the kids, keeps them grounded, and then we put the sound. So, for example, it's a vacuum cleaner. So we ran a vacuum cleaner in the studio. Recorded it with Yeah, yeah. Recorded it with a nurse rerun song, which we changed the words to, to give like comfort about a vacuum cleaner, and then there's a rhythm to it. So they still sell. They're available on Amazon, and the pocket ot website is downloads, but that's how we started in business. Wow, yeah. The initial blog was called route to greatness.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, okay, I did see something about CDs on the website, but I was like, I'm just trying to picture what. What would these CDs be? Okay?
Cara Koscinski
I think Jayson, I would do everything in the world if I could.
Jayson Davies
I understand the same thing. Yeah, yeah, many ideas and not enough time, right? Yeah. All right, so one last question about you, and then we'll get into kind of going forward. What inspired you to be an OT?
Cara Koscinski
Oh, I chose to be an OT as a junior in high school. I volunteered. Like most of us, volunteered in the health professions. I knew it was health related that I wanted to be something in the health field, and honestly, I liked, you know, did a lot of volunteer work in in the hospitals and with senior citizen groups. So I spent the time in the PT clinic, ot clinic, speech clinic, psychology clinics. And I just fell in love with ot immediately and and I applied it as a junior in high school, and it was called an early decision and Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, and you applied as a junior in high school, and you were actually allowed to get your well, not allowed, but you got your master's degree started at the beginning as a freshman, they implemented all these courses, and in five years, the last two years being all year round, spring, summer, fall. Yeah, you got your master's degree in five year period. It was really neat, and it's still the way the program works today. So it's cool. Have to reapply. Maybe I'm wrong. Don't hold me to that. It's neat.
Jayson Davies
At USC, we had a similar program. I went to a junior college first, so it took me, like, six years instead of the five years. But it was because I knew that I was going into ot for the Masters. I ended up getting my bachelor's in OT, but my senior year was basically my first year of the masters.
Cara Koscinski
And so, yeah, we graduated with a Bachelor of Health Sciences on like a Thursday and Monday. We are in our Master's class. Exactly continuing. It was, it's neat, yeah, but yeah, I love that.
Jayson Davies
Cool. Well, you kind of already started down this route, but I wanted to get into the history of the pocket. OT, and so you kind of mentioned route to greatness. How did that kind of transform into the pocket OT?
Cara Koscinski
Well, you know, Keywords are the thing. So back in 2005 when I started a blog, I had blogs were new, and at that time, there was just. Is the OT Exchange, which is a listserv which I don't even think they have anymore. So I thought I'm going to start this, this thing called a blog, and just post my feelings. And then what happened was it kind of streamlined into this, this, this the pocket OT, because people would say, how do you say your name? You know, he's hard to say. And then the uni bomber came along, which was Ted Kaczynski, that was his last name. So I thought, you know, when I'm not going with my last name, I'm gonna be, I don't want it. You know, my husband said, Don't be the OT in their pocket. That's kind of creepy. So you can be the pocket OT. So, yeah, I like to think my my books are like pocket guides, so they're there whenever you need them, like right in your pocket.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, they really are. I mean, I was just kind of looking at them, and you have, you have books, not only for OTs, but for parents as well. Like a parent's guide to OT is one of them, right?
Cara Koscinski
Yes, yeah. And that book actually was called the pocket ot in 2013 when it was first released, and Jessica Kingsley publishers and I decided to change it to the parents guide to occupational therapy, because all the books are really well, not all they are. They're a lot, but they're just handouts and things that I wanted people to know about therapy, but I didn't want to overwhelm them. I wanted them to be manageable, and I did not want to use big, complicated terms. So all the books are written and broken down into layman's terms, which is important to me, because I know that the literacy of every human being in the world is not the same, so we need to make things easily understandable for everybody.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely, very cool. So you kind of started with the blog, and I was a little shocked. I went on just to make sure today that you are still posting weekly, and you absolutely are, I mean, I find that people out there. I mean, we have this podcast, and it's hard to keep up with the blog. I'm not gonna lie, we've kind of fallen a little behind on our blog, but you were still doing it every week.
Cara Koscinski
How are you doing twice? I try to do it once or twice a week, if I can, sometimes three times, I don't know. Just I really, honestly, I eat, sleep and breathe ot I can't get enough. I honestly, love making the pictures that go with the blog and writing the blog and doing videos for I, I don't know, because I do other full time work too.
Jayson Davies
So what, what are some of your most memorable blogs, or maybe some of the most popular blogs?
Cara Koscinski
Oh, gosh. Well, lately they're more the how tos. You know, the free tip sheets that I offer. A lot of people download the free tip sheets, but I use, I loved when the beginning of when I would give more of my opinion on my daily life. So there's a post that's old. I think it's from 2015 it's called the curse of the sleeves, cursing the sleeves, yes. And I had long sleeves on, and they were making me hot, and I couldn't pull them up, and all day I was miserable with these sleeves. And I thought, I know how my kids feel. That's funny, yeah. And it was just like, just me being a mom in a human vesting, which we don't really do anymore on the blog, no, yeah, because it's you know, you want to give informational. You want to become personable too, but you want to provide much information. So that's my favorite post I think ever.
Jayson Davies
That's funny, I will definitely have to find that and put a link to it in the in the show notes.
Cara Koscinski
I'll make sure the graphics updated.
Jayson Davies
new sleeves, new sleeves.
Cara Koscinski
Just you know this, with a blog, you can't just write a blog. You have to make sure now the images are pinnable, and it's it is ton of work. And I myself, I do not have anyone that writes my blogs for me or anything.
Jayson Davies
I'm glad you said that. I was I reading them. I was like, this has to be her, but I don't know how she has the time to do all this now.
Cara Koscinski
And you know what Jayson I have probably about, I don't know, at least 200 more posts saved already. Oh, my God, I just went, I'll be up in the middle of the night to use the rash restroom, and then I'll think, oh, and I'll write a blog post and save it.
Jayson Davies
So that's funny. Wow, yeah, one of the, I know, one of the recent ones you had, I was scrolling through, and I saw the pictures of it was a tree, except with little swirly papers as kind of the branches and stuff. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's an awesome idea. So we'll be sure to link over to the blog and make sure everyone can see that.
Cara Koscinski
Some of them craft ones, though I do purchase I have someone that takes the pictures, I have to say that. So yeah, some of them, I do have someone that helps with the pictures. But as far as the content, it's Yeah, me, yeah, but thank you.
Jayson Davies
Awesome, so another thing that I have seen, I didn't see it on the website today, but in the past, I have seen that you do some mentoring. And so what does that look like?
Cara Koscinski
Well, I used to do it one on one, so like, do you and I are doing Skype sessions? I would do back to back, one on one, one on one, and it got to be so much too much for me, because I do have, you know, I my son is still at home, so I do some work from home, and he is, he has a GJ tube because he has a rare disease called mitochondrial disease, which is actually common with autism, but he's tube fed, and it's a lot of work. So when I can't get a caregiver. Or it's all me, so I don't have time to do one on one, but what I offer through the website now is group, small group mentoring. So we'll have, we'll run for about six maybe eight weeks, depending on, you know, the time of the year. So in the spring, I'll run it eight weeks, because, you know, you're not often busy as much in the spring as in summer. And we'll cover different topics every week that will, you know, give articles. And now that I'm getting my doctorate, I'm really trying to get as much evidence, you know, article for people to read. So maybe this week, we'll talk about sensory processing, but as a theory and as a treatment strategy, not as a way to treat every kid you know. So, and then we'll look at research articles that base back that up to some degree, and it's really something that I want people to take away and become more evidence based, too. That's another goal. It's not just, how can I help you with your problems? It's together to build our profession.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. So are you able to share a little bit about your doctorate, what you're doing?
Cara Koscinski
Yeah. So I'm getting my OTD, which a lot of people ask me what the difference is between a PhD and an OTD. I'll have to write a blog post about that. It would take me an hour, and I don't want to spend another hour on it, but, yeah, I'm getting my post professional, post professional doctorate, and it is a lot of work. It's I'm taking a full time course load, and it is through Rocky Mountain University of Health Professions in Utah. It's a hybrid where I am full time on the computer and reading, and then I go to Utah once a semester for 40 hours. About 40 hours were there every semester. But it's neat, because you go through with a group of people called a cohort, and the people in my cohort are just as passionate as I am about OT. They're accomplished individuals. They're it's such a wonderful thing to get to know them and bond with them. It's amazing. Our profession has a lot of amazing people in it, so shout out to the cohorts. But yeah, it's really great. I mean, we're all for our capstone project to get the doctor, you do a project called a capstone, and all of the ideas are published. They want to publish books and really do some really cool things out in the community to help homeless and, you know, trafficking and really cool ideas.
Jayson Davies
And that's cool because, you know, we kind of on the podcast and on the OT school house, we really focus on the pediatric school days, but yeah, there's so many OTs out there that are doing amazing things in other areas. And, yeah, yeah. And with OT, I mean, if you ever, I mean, God forbid you get tired of working with kids, there's so many other things that you can go and do. And that's super cool about OT.
Cara Koscinski
I'm excited about something new that I've been doing that I didn't even mention or put out there yet. I just signed a contract with the BER which is Bear. It's the Bureau of education and research, so I'm going to be speaking for them. I speak for them in May in Denver, and then all next year. I think there's 20 or 30 conferences that I'll be speaking at. So the flyers will be coming out soon. But yeah, I'm excited to work with bear. Are you able to share the topic yet? Yes, so it's all school school readiness. I'm going to talk about, it's a full day course, and they'll be just addressing school based challenges. So the whole program is for school based therapists. We're going to talk in my specific program about productivity, how to streamline case loads and how to work effectively, instead of, you know, kind of being scattered, we're going to talk about executive function. We're going to talk a lot about writing SMART goals and how to help the goal process and development. And then we're going to talk a lot about behavior issues, because I think we're getting so many referrals that everyone's saying, Is it sensor your behavior, you know? So that's going to be definitely addressed. And the last thing is handwriting, because we're not handwriting teachers, but we're getting, you know, tons of handwriting referrals.
Jayson Davies
And actually, yeah, and we actually did a podcast. I think it was episode three on writing SMART goals. You mentioned goals a little bit. And then actually, in episode 12, I think it was, I had some fun and kind of did a little lit review. Actually, I went back and I did a handwriting lit review. I found like three, three or four articles about handwriting, including the Size Matters program, handwriting volunteers program, and looked at the research and what it said. And it was really cool just to kind of go back. It's almost like going back to college, or doing the doctor, going back and reviewing a few articles. And it was kind of fun.
Cara Koscinski
It is. And I think with productivity standards in the schools and these heavy case loads, it's harder for people to find the time to go back and do that. So hopefully, in the course, though, they'll leave and with excitement and more energy, you know, to move forward and do creative things. So we're gonna have fun. There's a couple labs in the course, but yeah, so.
Jayson Davies
I can't wait let me know when you come to Southern California, okay, oh yeah. Actually, that kind of leads into our very next topic, which everything that you just said, basically every topic you just mentioned, you have a webinar for. And so if anyone really wants to get at. Some of that stuff before they before you come to town, what are some of those webinars you have?
Cara Koscinski
So my really, because I'm a busy mother, and I know you don't have to be a mother to be an OT, but, you know, I want to learn, but it's hard for us to attend the full day courses or take that day off work. So I wanted to, I'm one of the first people, actually, now everyone does it that offers on demand courses. So I record them and I try to get some either my sons will stand in as case studies if I can't get the hip. You know, hip has made it a little bit tougher to get case studies done right. So I'll get, you know, clients or friends of mine. But anyway, we do two to three hour long courses, and I record them with evidence. There's a for a OT, a approval and NBC, OT, you have to put lots of effort into the reference and bibliography lists. So every one of them is based on current research within the last five years. And if it's not, I update it when it's due, because it's important to me now, especially getting the doctorate. But the courses are just practical tips that you can you know, I want you to get hands on. What is this? What can we do about it? Because the isn't the worst thing. Leaving a course and saying, Well, that was great, but how do I use that? Yeah, so that's like my nightmares to someone, no one's ever said that in the, gosh, eight years I've been doing this, I didn't get enough tips. No one.
Jayson Davies
No way. So that's good. I'm sure to send Karen email saying I didn't get enough tips. She'd write you like a three page email with more tips.
Cara Koscinski
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. But no one's done.
Jayson Davies
It's funny. So are your, are your webinars, a ot approved? I can't remember.
Cara Koscinski
They were working like an AOT approval? Yes, right now they are not a ot approved. We any the current state is that any and any, course, that is recognized by the NBA, C ot can be submitted for approval to the state right now. So it's going to change where you're going to be have to get an A ot affiliation. So I definitely have that work.
Jayson Davies
Really, that's coming? yes for NBC ot approval, or?
Cara Koscinski
For state, most state licenses are changing it. Now, if you look at like, for instance, I'm in North Carolina. Now, if you look at the state of North Carolina requirements, which you should do, everyone therapist, because I get a lot of emails saying, can you tell me what might No, you go on there you have that license. You need to make sure you're legal. But yeah, it says if the course is NBC, ot approved, we accept it. So, like, that's the current standard in a lot of states. But I know the A OTA of course being a represent, you know, they advocate for us well, so they're hoping to get more courses approved, and I want to be one of them, for sure, definitely.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and we're working on getting select episodes of our podcast as well. A OTA approved. So that's really cool.
Cara Koscinski
It's quite grueling, but I meet the standards. I just got PT approval for most of the courses. So yeah, just have to submit the paperwork and the money.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, it's a saved document on my computer. Just got to get to it. Yeah, that's great. So, tons of webinars, I know you have executive functioning. You have, like, kind of an introductory to schools?
Cara Koscinski
Yes, introductory to schools, pediatric OT, one on 1101, I have one on learning disorders, which, it's really cool, because I give some video tips in it the end. So learning disorders, is it sensory, or is it behavior? Is my most popular course. It's a two hour course. I also see a lot of therapy clinics that call me and say, Can you do this course live via either Skype or my platform that I use? So I just finished last week two three hour courses, because I can adapt them to the length. If someone needs a six hour course, I can do that. But the sensory is it sensory or behavior? Is by far the most popular right this year, and in 2018 but there's also a brand new one called trauma informed care for pediatric therapists. It is a three hour course that just helps you to know what, especially for pediatric OTs. You know, what is this? Trauma informed care? What does it mean? And of course, how can I use it right now in my clinic? So it's growing quickly as well. Wow.
Jayson Davies
So are the courses all you or do you bring anyone else?
Cara Koscinski
Yeah, not that I don't trust anyone else. It's just that I can change. I always am updating. You know, if I learn something new, I want you guys. I can only do that if they're my property.
Jayson Davies
There you go. Yeah. All right. So I'm just kind of going down the list of everything you have on your website. You have so much and one new thing, another new thing you have, although you always have so many new things, it seems like. But one of the more new things is a book that you have on Amazon called interoception.
Cara Koscinski
Oh my gosh, that book is selling so much it keeps selling out, really. So yes, that's, that's the book is it's it came out because there's only one other book on introception Right now, and I wanted to make characters because my I living with kids with autism and special needs, I kind of know what, at least my. Kids and those I work with still, because I still, still, still see a few kids on caseload, just to keep my hands in it, because you kind of have to, right? So this book is all about what is this eighth sense of ours? And then I have little characters. So it's lub dub heart, so that you know when you're feeling the heart, I have a picture of this cute little animated cartoon heart with eyes and and then you cut it out, and you do activities with loved up heart, and it's all in the book. And anyone that purchases the book, there's free downloads on my website too that you know that you can use as activities with the book. So it's really selling well because it's for anyone. And a lot of social workers and psychologists are buying it because they're dealing with this also, and just Jayson as an aside. Introception is not something we invented as OTs. It's been around since the 1800s and we're just learning about it now. Wow, it's not new by any means. It's just that we're using it, learning more about it now that we're into mindfulness and some of the more, yeah, relaxation methods.
Jayson Davies
So in the 1800s where did it kind of start? I'm sure you know this. You've done all your background.
Cara Koscinski
Oh yeah, yeah. It's so it started with professionals that were doctors, and we're looking at heart rate, and you know, you it's not just feeling when you have to go to the toilet or hungry or thirsty, it's actually the physiological balance of homeostasis. So where do you feel stressed? You know you can feel it in your heart. You can take your heart rate as part of it and that. So it evolved from a medical need to kind of look at the body, and it's interesting, because there's also a cognitive or the sixth that sense that you have, like the spidey sense, I call it in the book, you kind of know when something's off and not OT, so where does that come from? You know? And they're looking at researching that too, because it's, it's kind of a phenomenon, isn't it? When you have that feeling, yeah, that something's not right. It's just our intuition, and it's just a lot of body processes that are very fine tuned. And I think that's why a lot of our kids with special needs struggle, is because that coordination of the whole body system for this fine tune, you know, high level sense is very it's off. So that's tough for our kids, yeah, for sure.
Jayson Davies
And being such into sensory integration as you are, does sensory integration play into that? Do you feel it?
Cara Koscinski
Does it absolutely? So it's definitely. If you look at Lucy, I'm going to throw out Lucy Jane Miller's noseology chart from I think it's 2012 introception is actually on the right side when you're looking at the sensory disorder. So it goes through all the systems it has, the tactile, sight, sound, touch, all those, and then it has interoception listed. So it's definitely integrated and incorporated into the sensory processing world, for sure. And you can have a heightened sense of introception, which is kind of you're always you know, you're feeling your body and uncomfortable. Or you can even be low responsive and introception. Those are the kids that would like stuff, food, become constipated, bang themselves to kind of feel pain. So it's, yeah, it's super intertwined in all of it. Very interesting. I researched for two book, two years for that book, because I couldn't get enough, but I had to stop, stop somewhere and write the book, you know? But it was, it's really fun to look into how other disciplines in the medical field have contributed to this, for sure.
Jayson Davies
So that's really cool. But I think I came upon something on your website that I'm not quite sure if it's ready yet, but I found the 52 weeks of occupational therapy book.
Cara Koscinski
Yes, I have been getting so many. In fact, today, before I got on here, I read three people complaining that it's not ready. I tried that's gonna release it in February. Yeah,
Jayson Davies
I tried to click on, like everything, hoping that it was a link that would take me to. It didn't quite go everybody
Cara Koscinski
else. Jason, oh my gosh, here's what happened. I don't like to admit weakness, but I'm real human, so I have lupus, and I got really sick after Christmas for a good month, and it kept me I was in the hospital, and I had a lot of health problems. So yeah, unfortunately for everything, my work had to take a back seat, which has never happened before. I didn't like it, but anyway, I'm recovered now from it, but it sounds like you're doing well, yeah, but I take a lot of medicine, so I'm learning that work life balance that I never really learned before. Don't we all need that? Yeah, yeah. But it is coming out in March, and I need to update the website, because everyone's asking me, and it's it is things that are really cool. So every week there's going to be activities, gross motor, fine motor, all the downloads that go with it, so you don't have to plan anything.
Jayson Davies
That's fantastic. Yeah, awesome. All right, so we kind of went through the website a little bit, webinars, all that good stuff, but hearing you talk, I mean, you, you talk quick. You know what you're saying. You You know a lot of information, and so I know you're you have a very busy life. What does. The day in the life of the pocket ot look like?
Cara Koscinski
It can be different. Now this is the best thing about my job, is it's different on every day. So I'll give you a couple examples for this coming week. I have speak at a conference in Charleston. I fly to Utah the next day for school. You do school, and then I fly to the South Carolina State ot conference to deliver a course there. So sometimes when I'm traveling, you know, it's very busy there, but an average day in my office is connecting with, I'll probably connect with a few clients, just check on them and see how they're doing. A lot of answering emails from people all around the world with questions, and it's tough because I can't do OT with them. Yeah, and I just from Myanmar today, had someone that wants to do OT with their child and wants me to do it with them. And unfortunately, I know it's, I would love to do that, but there's not that. You know, technological. He doesn't have access to tech. So I know it's hard for me to say no, but it's answering a lot of emails, and then mostly every day, I'm working on either a new book that I'm writing that I'm not going to say what it is, function I'm working on executive function book, but yeah, so a little bit of that, and then blogging and creating another course. So every day, it's very busy, and it's a 10 hour day at least.
Jayson Davies
Dang Yeah, every single so for anyone out there who thinks us bloggers and podcasters have a not so busy life, you just kind of blew that out of the water. You are absolutely busy. Yeah?
Cara Koscinski
And then we have to do, I like to give the certificates myself. So I grade every single course that when you take the post test. I go through it myself and make your own certificate, because I really get to know hopefully the people that take the courses, I don't know how much longer I'm going to be.
Jayson Davies
Right, eventually. I mean, you're growing. So yeah, do you have anyone that helps you out with you said you have someone that takes pictures?
Cara Koscinski
I do, yeah, someone that takes pictures. And I do have someone that helps me with Facebook posts, because all these, yeah, the social media, there's all these statistics that I just don't want to get into because I don't understand them. But yeah, you're supposed to post on Facebook a certain time a day and 15 times, and I just don't want to know that. So I have someone that helps me with Facebook and with Instagram. And other than that, I do the rest myself. I do Pinterest and everything. So I have two gals that helped me a little bit part time. Cool, that's good. Love to hire a full time I'm always looking for interns, too.
Jayson Davies
I sold that one time I saw you. I don't know if it was a post or something, but I saw you looking for an intern.
Cara Koscinski
I am always looking for interns because, yeah,
Jayson Davies
When you say intern, are you thinking like an OT student or a high school student or more?
Cara Koscinski
Someone that's in it's in school already. Because what I would love to have and is someone to help me, you know, with the blog and to come up with fun ideas. And you know, what else we love is free stuff. So I have a whole page of freebies on my website, and I want more for people that have things, resources that, you know, tip sheets on, let's say executive function, give me 10 ideas I can do and put it in a sheet that I can give to parents. So that's what I would love more of.
Jayson Davies
Okay, have you ever taken on I know that you wouldn't take on a student to help out with the blog, but an actual field work student. Have you ever taken on students?
Cara Koscinski
I have, yeah, I have had several students and just kind of, you know, doing it at that time, I was doing more in the clinic work, so, you know, we could balance the two of them. But absolutely in the other thing is, you know, because there's so many venues of pediatric ot so we could see in the school and community based, you know, supporting families is also so important, you know, the caregiver education piece of it. So that's something that I think is interesting for fieldwork students to see, is that you can do different things and look for alternative funding sources, not just working in a school or an outpatient clinic. There's lots of different ways to find resources or grants for our services and work in the community. You know, Jayson, one of the things I remember when back in the 90s, when I was in school, early 90s, was that that they said, you know, care, you'll be able to take these students out into the grocery store and to shopping and laundry. And I thought, I've never done that, right? So I'm, yeah, I'm working. I think my capstone is maybe going to be coming up with community based programs for us as OTs, because that's where we really seeing these results in the community. We're able to see more naturalistic behaviors, and, yes, our clients in natural settings. So yeah, I mentioned
Jayson Davies
it a few times, I think, on the podcast now, but at the high school that I work at, we are fortunate to work with some of the Mont severe classrooms. And we do the classroom goes on a community outing twice a week. I might go with them like once a once a month or so, but it's still so much fun. We walk down the street to Albert. Ins, they do recycling. So they have to sort out the cans and the models to do recycling, and they get a free cookie from Albertsons. And then they actually, they actually go around, and they have to shop. They because they cook on Fridays. And so on Wednesday, they have to find all the things off their list. They do a shopping list on Tuesday. And so on Wednesday, they have to go find their the items in the shopping list and then check out. And, yeah.
Cara Koscinski
That is so neat. That is something we should have in every single school for every student. It is so needed. And there's this drop off of services that happens usually when our kids don't qualify for either school based services or community outpatient services, and then they miss these IADLs, right, the instrumental activities of daily living. So I love that, that you can do that. And I think isn't there such a need to, gosh, this would be nice for field work placements, to have the someone come in and look at those students that are maybe, you know, ages 10 to, you know, 21 and work on life skills. That'd be really awesome for every student.
Jayson Davies
Every student, not just the mod severe.
Cara Koscinski
Yeah, because my son having very mild, I don't want to say mild, because there's no you know, it's all tough. It's all tough. I mean, he has struggles more than a lot of kids do, but he would really benefit from more life skills, for sure.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. All right, so I have a new segment today that I wanted to bring onto the podcast, getting to know you. I think, I think it's gonna be so much fun. It's called a quote, unquote lightning round. But I don't know how much it'll be lightning round with you, because you like expand on everything, and I love it. So we'll go on a page, channel. Super short, this is fun. No anything. I'm sure everyone out there listening will like, if I try to stop you, they'll be like, Why are you stopping her? Jayson, don't stop her. Let her go.
Cara Koscinski
But anyways, ask my husband about trying to stop me.
Jayson Davies
Anyway. All right, so I've got a few lists. Honestly, I added a few while we've been talking because, like, light bulbs will come off in my head, but we'll see how many we get through. First thought, first part of the lightning round your thoughts on sensory integration in schools.
Cara Koscinski
I think we need it, because it's important, but we are not that's only one thing that we do, not everything we do. It's just, it's become such a it's supposed to be a frame of reference, right? A theory, you know, not necessarily everything. Got it, yeah. Is that lightning enough?
Jayson Davies
That is definitely lightning enough. We'll go on to the next one. Telehealth.
Cara Koscinski
Oh, I've done telehealth in the past before. I think it's effective ways to deliver services, if you can do one on one, also, because it's it's really dicey to get your you cannot get your hands on these students, and the hand over hand or hand under hand is so important, and not having your hands on is tough, and I struggled with it ethically. So I quit it after a year.
Jayson Davies
When you say one on one also, do you mean in the clinic with the student as well.
Cara Koscinski
I'm doing it like I'm seeing you on Skype, and it's whatever company I was working for, is platform. And I the child would have, you know, let's say they hold their pencil the wrong way, or I would want to adjust the amount of pressure they were using, you know, using on the pencil. And I couldn't say it's this much, you know, there's no gradation. There's no way to help them hands on, and that's something I struggled with ethically. I think it's good for consults.
Jayson Davies
Okay that's fair enough. Reflex integration, I'm into it.
Cara Koscinski
Yeah, yeah. I love I have inspect on my website is move. I'm a big affiliate of Sonia stories, move, play, thrive. I like it. It's not again, it's not for everybody. I like the research based techniques. The other thing that I'm going to say about it is, I get this question a lot you guys, it's not necessarily that we're integrating reflexes in an excluding function. You are supposed to be doing things that are incorporating functions. So let's say, if you're having someone crawl and tucking a stuffed animal under the chin to work on one of the reflexes, have them do an obstacle course where there's letters involved and function involved. Don't use it as an exclusive treatment. You've got to build the techniques of reflex integration into your treatment.
Jayson Davies
I love it. That was awesome. Mindfulness.
Cara Koscinski
I'm into mindfulness. I'm a kid's yoga instructor too, so I don't practice mindfulness like I should, and I'm very happy where you can hear mindfulness is so important, especially when working with introception, you've got to help these students to take brain breaks. The other thing about mindfulness is that when you think about oxygen, your body needs oxygen to get to your brain, and the only way to get that is through being mindful of your breathing. The biggest problem we have is the stress that gives us these short breaths, and we're not oxygenating our brain.
Jayson Davies
All right, I've got three more the importance of play.
Cara Koscinski
Oh my gosh. Play is everything. It's the way that kids develop. It's their occupation. And I actually have when I speak for future horizons at this autism conference, my my presentation this weekend is called learning through play. So it's just techniques on how to help parents use play to help their kids, instead of doing therapy all the time using play as therapy.
Jayson Davies
Wait, so are you speaking to therapists or speaking to parents?
Cara Koscinski
I'm speaking to parents. So with future horizons, my job is mostly parents. And there are some professionals that come to the to the courses. But this week is Carol crayon with Jed Baker and I and the this going to look a lot into sensory and behavior, but how to incorporate play into because a lot of our kids, you know, if they fail, usually the way that natural learning takes place is, when you fail, you try something different, try it again, repeat it, maybe adapt it. But I think a lot of our kids fail and get frustrated and quit.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and actually, I didn't have time to read it, but I think there was an article that recently came out that said that kids with autism learn better if they do it right the first time. And I mean, I think we all kind of do, but yes.
Cara Koscinski
But there's no that trial and error just isn't there. And we've got to build, you know, teach parents how to adapt like a toy for success. So if we can teach them that, and then help them to look at as a child's occupation, that's play. Because I think there's such with this school starting so early, and these expectations of our kids by the time they enter preschool, they have to be reading and writing and counting to 100 we are missing play as an occupation and so many beautiful skills that can be learned through play. So yeah, it's like kind of back to roots for ot right? Is absolutely place learning through play. And I cannot even believe in my kids lifetimes. You know, they're like I said, my older son is 18. How less, how less, you know, little play is emphasized, and how much technology has come into their lives. It's really saddening. It makes me, my stomach kind of sick, because it happens in my own sons, and I don't like it.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I think we're starting to see schools try to accommodate for play more, except they're trying to do it in the classroom, and rather than really getting outside and playing.
Cara Koscinski
I know absolutely, and I think with the behaviors are increasing in our kids because they're frustrated. And look at the energy that kids have. You know, no one I'm sitting here talking to you, fidgeting out with my pen, you know, if you're look at these parents of these kids, or teachers, you know, or whoever is making these rules about sitting still, there's no such thing as sitting still and paying attention. It's not even possible for adults, because we stim. We chew ice, absolutely gum. We, you know, fidget with our fingers, we twirl our hair. We all stim and move. So it's just moving that into something acceptable in the classroom, but movement breaks are so critical. And yeah, yeah.
Jayson Davies
All right, two more, and this one is collaborative goals on an IEP using standards like common core state standards, or whatever the state standards may be.
Cara Koscinski
Oh, I just researched this for my bear work. You know, I like these goals that are not discipline specific that we're doing. It's nice to have collaborative goals because we are supposed to let our disciplines go. And don't be mad at the OTs, but being in the mom's side of it, Jayson, it's interesting, because sitting on the mom's side of an IEP meeting, I want everyone to work together. I don't care if you're an OT if you're a speech path, if you're a, you know, social worker, whatever you are, I want my son to get the help he needs. I don't care what profession you're from, right? Although I'm happy, yeah, and it's just, I think that it's we as a profession, of, you know, as professions, not just ot have gotten, like, defensive about someone possibly taking over our role. And I think that the child has to be the priority. And when you put the kid first and not, you know, these specific goals specific to discipline, and who can work on, you know, handwriting and who can work on behavior, then the child just benefits more if we work as a team. So I'm very passionate about that. That's a great question. I love that we work together on IEPs now, and that we're trying things in the classroom like RTI, you know, we're trying things first, and really, I think the teachers and the school systems are really seeing that what we're doing is not working, yeah, is OTs guys, not as OTs in general, yeah, yeah. What's happening in this country is not good, and we're seeing the results. It's very frustrating, and we're changing it little by little.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and I don't know if it'll be RTI, but I think that pre IEP Systems of Supports are going to be a big thing in the near future, because that wait to fail system is just not right. We need to start intervening before there's a problem.
Cara Koscinski
Yeah, our whole society is based. On reactive medicine instead of proactive medicine. And it's very frustrating, you know, very frustrating to me as a mom, because even with my sons now, their medical state, you know, we every issue with anxiety that comes up that their doctor or their developmental pediatrician will say, Well, why don't we wait and see how he does in six months? No, he's anxious at having panic attacks. Now, let's get him to someone who is going to teach him mindfulness and breathing and yoga or anything. I don't care what it is, yeah, help him to learn, but it would be nice to see that whole shift of our culture.
Jayson Davies
All right, last one, number one tip for a new school based therapist.
Cara Koscinski
Okay, oh, gosh, I have so many. The biggest tip is to write goals that are functional. I think we all get hung up on this or that frame of reference or technique the goal is supposed to be function. So you can use 50 different techniques if you're writing the goal for a fine motor, like, let's just say, buttoning. So to get that that movement of buttoning or completing ties and zips, you could use weight bearing on the hand. You could use bilateral integration. You could use, you know, different types of hand strengthening putty. You could use sensory techniques, but you should never write the technique as the goal. The goal should always be measurable and something based on ultimate function. And I think I see this a lot, Jason, in the pediatric on Facebook. I'm one of the admins of the pediatric ot Facebook group, and I think we have 34,000 members of you International, yeah, but excuse me, one of the things that's really hard, and we see so many questions from new OTs is, how do I write goals? And if you keep the function in it, if someone can read it, that's not an OT that can understand that the end goal is to button or, you know, to to have functional core strength, to sit at a desk, you know, it's about the end result is function, and that's something I and don't write. The other thing regarding that is never write a goal to improve your score on the very VMI, like 25% I just took over some IEPs because I do consult work for schools too. And some of the goals, even today are written in accordance with the Peabody, the, you know, mvpt, it's unbelievable. No, still today, yeah, no, don't do that.
Jayson Davies
I mean, you should only be doing the bot. I What are those? You should only be doing those once every three years at the triennial.
Cara Koscinski
Anyways, that's right, absolutely. So that's the one. Jayson read the manual, read the test manual, and look at that. Because, you know, there's so many free resources to new grad OTs, there is nothing wrong with doing a Google search before asking a question. You've got to be creative. And I don't know Temple Grandin, and I don't know if you know Temple Grandin, but she's a she's she has and I speak together quite often. And she wrote for my weighted blanket book. She wrote the forward for it, or an endorsement, I'm sorry for it, but she's so amazing. But, you know, she taught me about Google Scholar about 10 years ago, and if you look on Google Scholar, you can find articles about anything and a lot for free. Yeah. So I think we need to be resourceful as new therapists and kind of look and see what we can do to change it. You know, be creative.
Jayson Davies
So the internet has made everything, yeah, the internet has made everything a lot easier these days. So, my gosh, being able to access research more than ever. So take advantage.
Cara Koscinski
Started on the how I didn't have internet when I was in school, I used a typewriter. I know it's like walking uphill in the snow both ways, right? I didn't have that, and I've I think we get so dependent on tech again to give us answers, but we need to be creative. And I one of my class that I'm taking now is a community based ot class, and it's amazing. One of the qualities the professor asked for one of our assignments was give me three qualities that an OT should have. And it was like, that was a really fun thing. So maybe OTs, you could do that, you know, just think, what are the three qualities that I should have that can help me be a better OT? So that's just a simple question. Ask yourself that maybe you'll get some insight.
Jayson Davies
Write them down, put it in your phone notes or something like that, and look at it every now and then and or.
Cara Koscinski
Send it to, you know, blog about it. That'd be great. Oh, don't get me started. Gosh,
Jayson Davies
next blog post from Karen, we know what? Well, thank you so much for coming on before you leave, I do want to give you a chance to reach out and give your contact information one last time, let people know where they can find you.
Cara Koscinski
Absolutely, I'm pretty much everywhere, but I am my My website is www dot pocket ot.com so not the pocket ot.com it's. Pocket ot.com I have a blog, Facebook, Pinterest, a lot of free downloads. So and if you subscribe to my blog, there'll be, when you go onto the website, there'll be a little pop up. You can get free handouts and things. But if you subscribe to the blog, every week, I do a newsletter post also that I send to my subscribers, and there's always something free, I try to give a free download and that too. And for your members, Jayson, we're, I'm gonna offer a promo code of OT school house 20, and that's gonna be all in caps. So ot school house 20, and that's gonna be for your if you wanna download any courses, that'll be for courses too, which is a really good deal, because at 20% off of anything you want to get from the site, thank you so much. You're welcome. So I'm glad you had me on. This is really fun to do.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, maybe we'll have to do this again in a year or so and catch up and see what's going on.
Cara Koscinski
You never would be I'll have two more books, but yeah, I've said i There are six published books that I have right now and again, you guys just recommend them to feel you can use them too as new grads. But for families, the whole thing is, what I really just want you to take away is that families just need support. And as a mom, you know, being on the other side, I just wanted people to listen and feel supported. You know, I wanted just to leave my ot sessions with maybe not 10 strategies to take home, but maybe just one or two. So if you could just give your family's hope and positivity, that would be that means the world to them.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, definitely. And share this podcast with a family member or another ot that might benefit from hearing all this. I mean, there's so much information in this one podcast that you just get for free, that it would take you a lot of.
Cara Koscinski
Yeah and OT school ot school house podcast too. I mean, I follow them too, and it's, you know, it's amazing. There are so many wonderful people that do things like this out so credit to you too. Jayson, this is awesome. Thank you for doing this. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
Thank you so much. I appreciate that. So all right, well, I would let you go for today. Thank you so much, so much fun. So we'll have to do it again sometime.
Cara Koscinski
Yeah, I need it as one hell I'm laughing.
Jayson Davies
Oh man, hey everyone, thank you so much for listening to the episode. Wasn't she fantastic? Kara, thank you so much. A special thank you to you for coming on and providing a special discount code for everyone and just for your all around knowledge. You've been doing this for so long. We appreciate everything that you can provide for us. Just a quick reminder, head over to Episode 24 show notes at ot schoolhouse.com, forward slash episode 24 there, we'll have all the links to everything that Kara was talking about, the out of sync child, some of her blogs, her CDs that she has available. They'll all be available at ot schoolhouse.com forward slash episode 24 until next time. I hope you all have a good two weeks. Take care. Bye. Bye.
Amazing Narrator
Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed.
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