OTSH 74: Which Is It: ADHD or SPD? Featuring Debbie Lund, MS, OTR/L
- Jayson Davies
- May 6, 2021
- 45 min read
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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 74 of the OT School House Podcast.
"What is the difference between ADHD and Sensory Processing disorder?" Has a parent or a teacher ever asked you that question? This has always been a touch question for me to answer. I could always explain sensory processing well, but I hadn't learned much about the neurological processes behind ADHD.
To help you and I better understand the differences between ADHD and SPD, I am welcoming to the podcast, Debbie Lund, MS, OTR/L. Debbie is here to share with us her experiences of working with children who have SPD and/or ADHD and how our treatments may need to vary based on the child's needs.
Meet Debbie Lund
Debbie is the Owner of Two Fish Therapy, LLC. She has worked with a variety of children with various learning needs for over 20 years. Her occupational therapy experiences include working with children with diagnoses of Sensory Processing Disorder, ADHD/ADD, learning disabilities, dyslexia, visual perceptual disorders, dysgraphia, motor coordination disorders, autism, to name a few . Before completing her Master of Science in OT she worked in a variety of community settings including homes, schools, daycares, and after school programs. She has particular interest in designing new and more effective therapy and educational programs for children in schools. She works everyday to ensure that her company provides the best available; consultation to teachers, individualized learning plans for kids and schools, integration therapy with education in classroom and treatment. She aims to support and advocate for child-centered learning styles, especially for children with attention, sensory and coordination issues, with every family and child she meets. She also strives to build relationships with key professionals in the community in order to enhance potential, success and connections for families and their children.
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Episode Transcript
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Amazing Narrator
Hello and welcome to the OT School House podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies. Class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Hey everyone, and welcome to Episode 74 of the OT school House podcast. My name is Jayson, thank you so much for joining us here today on the OT School House podcast. Really appreciate you being here. This is gonna be a fun one. We're talking with Deb Lund, who is the owner of two fish therapies down in Florida, if I remember right, and we're going to talk about the difference and similarities between ADHD and sensory processing disorder. So if you have been caught in the middle of a conversation, trying to explain the differences between ADHD and sensory processing, you are in the right place. This is the podcast for you. We're going to talk about the differences in the DSM, the DSM five, the manual that kind of outlines what a disorder is, and kind of what the definitions of it are. And yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about evaluating how to determine whether we need to go in the direction of treating ADHD or treating a sensory processing, and then even what that might look like the treatment as well as the recommendations that we might provide to parents and teachers. All right. So you do not want to miss this again, this is Deb Lund, and she is the owner of two fish therapy. You can learn more about that at twofishtherapy.com, and she has a bunch of resources that you'll hear throughout this episode that she has compiled for us that you can get at the show notes for this episode. All right, so enjoy the episode. This is Deb Lund. Deb, welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast. How are you doing today?
Debbie Lund
Great. Thank you so much for having me.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, no problem excited to have this conversation. This is a question that comes up a lot. I'm sure you've heard it many times, obviously. Because we're, we're talking about today. And that's kind of the difference between ADHD, sensory processing, and how you kind of see those differences. So I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
Debbie Lund
Oh, thank you, me. Me, too. I'm really excited. I do hear that question a lot.
Jayson Davies
I bet.
Debbie Lund
I think a lot of you as well, teachers, and probably pediatricians.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. And I love that, you know, we already have a question a little bit down a little bit, you know, in a few minutes, maybe 20 minutes or so I'm gonna actually ask you kind of that specific question is how do we explain? How do we explain this to parents who might be wondering this and don't have a medical background. So we'll get into that in a little bit. But first, I want to give you an opportunity actually to share a little bit about yourself in your OT career and how you got to where you are today. So tell us about that?
Debbie Lund
Well, I like from the time I was a kid, I always wanted to be an education. So I think originally I wanted to be a teacher or something. And then as I got older, I was just I think my parents really pressed upon me how important it is to get an education and have a good education. And going through my educational career, I saw so many intelligent people like really smart folks who struggled so much to access education inside the box that we have as education, right. So, you know, in a lot of cases, quite frankly, and I think a lot of people would agree with me who experienced this, and this is even neurotypical folks like education can actually be more of a catalyst, I mean, more of an obstacle than a catalyst to people's life success, right? In terms of if you have learning differences, or if you don't fit within the style of that education. And although So, so I always wanted to support access to learning. That's what I wanted to do. So I wanted to help people get through school, I wanted to help people do well in school, I wanted to help them be successful. I was going to be a teacher. And then I thought, well, maybe I'll be a psychology like a school based psychologist. They don't got it on my undergrad, double majored in sight, I found out that it was a lot of testing and a lot of mental health. And that was not what I was looking for. And then just through working, you know, with people with disabilities, like I worked in group homes, and I worked in schools, and I worked in the community, I did some independent living stuff with folks. I happened upon OT and I apply for I was like, This is perfect. Like, this is exactly what to do. I want to enable participation. I want to enable access in school systems like this is, you know, so that's how I got there. I applied and here I am, like running a school based therapy company is out there. This was speech paths and educational assistance and, you know, Yeah,
Debbie Lund
wow. Yeah, it really sounds like you found the right job.
Debbie Lund
This also you know what, I'm Canadian.Yeah. So I went to McMaster University in Ontario. I'm from the east coast of Canada. And I actually just after grad school, packed up and drove here.
Jayson Davies
Drove here being Where?
Debbie Lund
To Florida to Florida, where I live now. Yeah, and I own this practice. And I do all of this. So it's, it's been a real adventure. Wow. So from
Jayson Davies
Florida what a change?
Debbie Lund
Definitely, yeah.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And a lot more ways than just one. I mean, more than just weather.
Debbie Lund
Yeah.
Jayson Davies
All right. Well, actually, were your parents in education, you said that you were kind of instilled with education, were they in education.
Debbie Lund
We weren't in education, but I just I was just a big part of what they believed in, like, they just really wanted me to get an education so that I could do well for myself. Great. So it wasn't, it wasn't bad. It was just the I think it's very common for people, you know, to, to hope that their children will get the best education that they can get, you know,
Jayson Davies
absolutely. Alright, so I really liked what you touched upon too, with house for some education can be a something to build up upon. But for other people who might have a learning disability and maybe a little bit more tough and like you, I think you said it might be an inhibitor for some people. Yeah, like, yeah, and obstacle. There we go. Great terminology. Yeah, we're gonna get all into that. But I want to ask you one more question. And because you kind of started to talk about it is is your company? What does your company actually do? You mentioned that you have a school based OT company, you also mentioned, educational assistance. So tell us a little more.
Debbie Lund
Yeah. So I currently own a company in St. Pete, Florida. And we go specifically into private schools right now, to support them with their therapy services. So speech in OT. And then I also have educational assistance or reading specialists, learning specialists, educational specialists. So I have, I have a couple of tutors who work with me one Spartan trained, the other one is Linda mood Bell trained. And then I've also trained them in how to do some of the the home programs that I would generally give parents. So they'll start their tutoring sessions with a little OTs protocol, you know, important move protocol, and then they'll go into the rest of it. So we're kind of sharing and make like enabling more of that access to the treatment plans, more more frequency, intensity duration, because they're seeing me and then they're seeing them a few times a week, so they get it more frequently through us, especially if the parents aren't able to on account of schedules or whatever the situation, maybe
Jayson Davies
that's really cool. I would love to see some sort of research done, where there is that much incorporation between the OT and it sounds like to me, your educational specialists might be something like we call them out here. RSP resource specialist teachers or something like that.
Debbie Lund
Yeah, exactly.
Jayson Davies
Okay, great. All right. Well, that's awesome. So yeah, and we'll direct people to your website, so they can learn more about your website a little bit later. But let's jump into sensory processing and ADHD a little bit. Sounds great. Yeah. So to get started, let's start off with the ADHD side a little bit. And would you mind sharing with us a little background on ADHD and for anyone who's not quite so sure about it, this listening what it is?
Debbie Lund
Okay. So ADHD stands for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And I think like to explain it, I'm just going to go right into like differences in terms of our brain functioning. Okay. So we know that children who have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, there's some issues with the neurotransmitters and that there's not enough dopamine and norepinephrine. So that's one that's one area of difficulty. So there's some struggle with some focus there. And then there's some difficulty with the reward system and motivation associated with those things. And then there's a lot of great imaging now, you know, like scientists come so far. So neural imaging actually show some abnormalities in the frontal regions of the brain, which is to be expected because, you know, those are the areas of the brain that are involved in executive functions, focus, tension, planning, self monitoring, working memory, these type of things. So we know that children who have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder have brain differences and their behaviors present as struggling to focus struggling to plan struggling in those areas in which those brain those brain differences are present.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha. Okay. The next question is going to lead right into that, and ADHD I, there's always been I mean, this is ever since I was back in high school, I remember there was always like, is ADHD are there different types of ADHD is add a thing. So I just want to quickly ask you a little bit about As far as are there different types of ADHD? And if so what are they?
Debbie Lund
I think that's changed, like, as of recently, and I don't know, I hate to say as a risk I feel the older I get, the more years pass.
Jayson Davies
It's relative, relative time is relative
Debbie Lund
it's relative to my age, which I really don't want to get into
Jayson Davies
Not on this podcast.
Debbie Lund
So now there are three types that you can actually have in terms of the DSM five, there's three different types. So there's the combined presentation and and it's some combination of either being the inattentive type, or being the hyperactive impulsivity type. And I'll give you some characteristics of that in a second. But just for you to understand how the diagnoses go, you can have a combined presentation, which would be the childhood or the or the adult person would have to meet the criteria of both in attention and, and attention and hyperactivity, impulsivity. So there's a list of characteristics that come with that. Or you can have predominantly inattentive presentation, or the child struggles with just hyperactivity impulsivity, or you can have no sorry, within attention, struggles just predominantly within intention, or you can have predominantly hyperactive impulsive, which is they meet the criterion for hyperactivity
Jayson Davies
and impulsivity,
Debbie Lund
impulsive over the over the plastic, and this is all happening over the past six months from which they're tested or beings. Okay?
Jayson Davies
So it's really based upon what?
Debbie Lund
they have to meet these criteria and within six months of being in the doctor's office, or whoever's doing the assessment,
Jayson Davies
gotcha. Okay. And then so you started to say that you would also share with us a few of the behaviors that that might look like, depending on whether they're in the inattentive type or the was it hyper activity, impulsivity, so go ahead with that.
Debbie Lund
So if they are in an inattentive, this is like directly from the DSM. So the Diagnostic Statistical Manual that's used to create some criteria and provides diagnosis and diagnosis codes. So for the inattentive type, here are some characteristics so they make careless mistakes or lack of attention to detail. Difficulty sustaining attention doesn't seem to listen when spoken to fails to follow through on tasks or instructions. exhibits poor organization avoids or dislikes tasks requiring sustained mental effort is easily distracted. So those are some criterion for inattentive type. For the hyperactivity, impulsivity type, it's fidgets with our taps, hands or feet and squirms and seats leave seats in situations where they shouldn't be remained seating are seated, has difficulty engaging and quiet, leisurely activities is on the go or acts as if driven by a motor talks excessively. blurts out answers, has difficulty waiting their turn, interrupts or intrudes on others. Okay, so those are some of the symptoms were acquired for a diagnosis.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and like you were saying earlier, it sounds like there's three different models, not models, but three different ways that a child can be diagnosed with ADHD. And so you might get mostly that inattentive, my most of the hyperactivity, impulsivity, or a mixture of the two, correct?
Debbie Lund
presentation. Exactly.
Jayson Davies
Great. Alright, so I couldn't help but think, well, you were mentioning all of those behaviors, that it can sound like some of our kids also, who might have a sensory processing disorder, maybe some of our kids with autism, and all right, so Exactly. Right. So let's go ahead now and talk a little bit about the sensory processing side of it. I think as OTs we inherently get a little more training in sensory processing than we do in ADHD. I think maybe that's different depending on what school you went to, and what trainings you've taken. But what are some of the key behaviors that might be seen in a child with sensory processing disorder.
Debbie Lund
So I think in terms of like behaviors associated with being able to attend for school, like access education, and learning behaviors, very much the same as those characteristics for inattention and hyperactivity and impulsivity, and I and you know, considering where the processing breakdowns are, which we can get into or we'll get into a little bit later when we start talking about SPD presentation and neuro imaging, but it makes so much sense that higher levels of the brain would be impacted such as the areas in the frontal region, because there's the processing or as Jane Ayres would describe it, like traffic jams in the in the lower back regions, right. So if there's disruptions that affect efficiency and access to brain centers, then obviously these kids are going to struggle with attention. And they're going to struggle with impulse control in these frontal lobe regions. So those behaviors are very common in the kiddos that we see.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha, yeah. And one thing that I always recall from like anatomy classes, and then it was reminded of it when I took some si classes was that you have the old brain and you have the newer brain, right? And that old brain is like central located. And that's where all that sensory processing is really, that's where that traffic jam often is, is in the brain. And so those signals can't get to the new brain, which is more of the cortex and the frontal lobe, I like what you're talking about, right until they go through the old brain. And so I think it's absolutely I think you're right on and with the brain, it has to go through that old brain before it gets to the new brain. And so that's why you might see some of those similar behaviors.
Debbie Lund
Yeah, I recently took a course actually, with a woman who is, was a psychologist, and I was taking it trying to get a psychology perspective, just a well rounded perspective on self regulation, was a self regulation. For those looking more like, I was thinking was going to get more mindfulness yoga, sort of like, anyway, she was so well versed in sensory processing, I was very impressed by that fish, she went back to this old brain piece. And she actually talked about how, you know, Jean, who is the pioneer of sensory integration, she believed that 80% of our brain is involved in sorting, organizing, and storing sensory information. So when you think about there, it's involved in that much so that much of the brain is actually receiving, sorting, organizing and storing sensory information. It's just, it makes so much sense, really, because everything we receive in terms of learning at some point comes in through a sense, right? And then we organize those responses, we organize that information and process it and then create responses to it. So it's a really powerful perspective in terms of taking a bottom up approach for sure.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. And so and, you know, our brain has to do that whether or not we have a sensory processing disorder, whether we're a typical learner or whether we have ADHD. And it sounds like the difficulties might be similar in some cases that a student with ADHD or a student with sensory processing disorder might have, they might show similar disabilities. However, the processing within the brain is different. I think you mentioned like dopamine and epinephrine, being more indicated with ADHD, as opposed to sensory processing is very much in that old part of the brain, the brainstem, correct?
Debbie Lund
Yeah, definitely. And the lower regions of the brain associated with visual auditory and some metal sensory processing. This is what the imaging found. But more importantly, let me I got ahead of myself. So let me just step back. So I think in terms of you're saying one of the key behaviors in kids with sensory processing disorder, and I said, Well, all of the inattentive and learning behaviors that I just described for attention deficit disorder, but also there's a need for sensory but I need to seek sensory input or avoid it. So there is a some sort of association with sensory input in a kid who has a sensory processing disorder. If that isn't there, that can actually be a key feature for us to determine whether it's an ADHD issue, whether it's a higher brain region issue whatever's going on, or whether it's rooted in sensory processing stuff.
Jayson Davies
Stuff Well, let's let's go into that a little bit more because I know you know it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull it out of you. Okay, let's kind of break down sensory a little bit what might a student or a child be seeking or avoiding when it comes to tactile?
Debbie Lund
Okay, so you want some specific behaviors of what they might be thinking? Like,
Jayson Davies
yeah, we'll go with that.
Debbie Lund
Okay, so So kids who seek tactile input, this is the kid Okay, who you have a difficult time setting them any like we're thinking if we're thinking kindergarten to grade three, this child Do you struggle with having him standing in a line having him sit in circles having him be anywhere close to somebody else, because he's always touching, seeking bumping crashing, or she bumping too hard tagging too hard seeking out this extra input all the time. Whereas the kid who is an avoider is going to get very upset from a tactile perspective. If they're in line and somebody just taps them gently it's going to be Oh, my goodness, you know that he hit me he hit me, you know, this over responsiveness, so the tactile input, so and then over responsiveness to clothing to to materials, like play materials and school, especially in terms of like glue, slime, sand, all of these different textures and even pencils, sometimes. Even pens. Oh, yeah, definitely for sure. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
All right. then what about are you you've had on yours, and I wanted to talk about it was the the ocular motor concerns when it comes to sensory processing?
Debbie Lund
Right.
Jayson Davies
And so I wanted to ask you about that one.
Debbie Lund
So that's huge. So when I think that, you know, oftentimes ocular motor concerns are overlooked. I think that as OTs within the school system and correct me if I'm wrong, like within like a public school system, or within a school system. Who else is considering the child's document motor skills, I don't know of anybody else who's pointing that out, right? And similar system is wired to the like, you know, our muscles or muscles within our eyes are controlled by our vestibular system. And our vestibular system also controls our postural activation, our body awareness. So when you're thinking about these kids who have sensory processing issues, and they're rooted in vestibular difficulties, you see there, they then have a difficult time controlling their eye movements. And the impact of not being able to control your eyes is tremendous when it comes to academics, particularly for what's important for, you know, administrators or for like the test givers in terms of like reading, writing, and math. Because for reading, you need to be able to sustain visual attention in order to be able to read or to attend to anything really in school, you need to be able to sustain visual attention, you need to be able to track across the page for all of that work or across the room without losing visual attention. You need to be able to your eyes need to be able to skip in a systematic like stockades just type of eye movement, from letter and letter to word to word with accuracy in order to be able to receive reading information, letter information, etc. You know, I've just narrowed it down to those two,
Jayson Davies
what I also think about, Yeah, I also think about copying from the board specifically going from the
Debbie Lund
far point to near point, divergence and convergence to like, where your eyes when you look up, your eyes naturally team out together. So your belly, your eyes, abilities to work together as a team. And then when you come in to look at your page, your eyes actually team in closer together, and whether or not those are working in an organized way affects your ability to do things like that. So yeah,
Jayson Davies
Great. And another term. And another terminology or term that I wanted to also ask you about was discrimination and what discrimination means in relationship to sensory processing.
Debbie Lund
So your ability to script discriminate is and this is actually a pattern of sensory processing disorder as well. But your your ability to discriminate is your ability to sense the subtle qualities differences, and sensory input. So let's say visual description, we're going to speak specifically to the sense of vision and example of visual discrimination would be being able to differentiate between P and Q, or B and D. Whereas if we were talking about auditory discrimination, we would be talking more about being able to discriminate between maybe cat and cap. So we're thinking of like phonics and phonemic awareness and these and listening and receiving instructions, and being able to hear your name another type of discrimination is being able to sort if it's like a foreground situation, so being able to hear your name being called when there's background noise going on behind so if you're if a child on the playground, and and there's a lot of noise going on and the teacher is calling them or the teachers giving a signal like time to come in and you know, for that child to be able to pick up that auditory cue, and, and and respond in a timely fashion like the rest of the kids. It's it's a negative, if it negatively impacts their ability to be able to do that. If they have issues with auditory discrimination.
Jayson Davies
Alright, and so you kind of started going down this route. So I'm just gonna go with it is describing some of the sensory patterns that a child may exhibit, I think you mentioned that discrimination is actually one of them. So why don't you elaborate on maybe give that one the full name, I'm not sure if you said it or not, but and then go on and explain the other few.
Debbie Lund
So there's, there's three patterns, and one of them is sensory discrimination disorder. And you know, this can happen in an all of your eight senses, or any of your eight senses. Maybe some of your senses maybe more affected, and other senses, it's the children present differently. Each child is unique, and their brains are unique. And their their experiences and the way they process information is unique. So, so there's sensory discrimination disorder. And like I said, that's the weather unable to distinguish subtle differences in sensory input, and then give meaning to them. Okay, all right, such as cap cat, P and Q, then there's also sensory modulation disorder. And that's when a child struggles or a person struggles to modulate the responses to sensory input in a functional, meaningful and purposeful way. So that for these kiddos, they have differences in the rate, they receive the information or notice the input when it comes in. And then the intensity of their experiences are different. So we're, you know, and this affects their behaviors and their responses and how they respond to it. So these kids are categorized in over responsive, under responsive or sensory seekers or cravers. So a child who is over responsive is this kid who has a huge intense experience associated with input, and their responses reflective of that, okay, and then a child and not like, you know, with treatment, where processing and probes and responses improve. And that's the whole point. But I'm saying, when there's an area of difficulty, and there's a disorder, and it's struggling, children are struggling, their responses are impacted.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha.
Debbie Lund
And then if they're under responsive, they're actually the rate in which they're receiving the information is delayed compared to other children, and they're not in the reaction times are delayed, and they're not getting the intensity that they need in order to activate those responses or activate that brain activity that's required for class. So these kids, you know, these are the kids that I think often go nest, like they often go on identify, I think over responsiveness people are more aware of, and it's more spoken about, but under responsiveness and passive. So these kids have, you know, poor strength, pouring durance, poor body control, they have they generally overall weak and they're a little bit slower or sluggish. They're very passive, they're easy going to get along with, so they often slip under the radar. And a lot of people you know, a lot of teachers, I'll hear from them, I don't know what's going on with this kid. He only does he only does his work when he wants to do his work, you know, I think he's just lazy. He's way smarter than this, his output doesn't match how intelligent he could be doing something, you know, this type of kids. So that's the I see that as the unresponsive kid, these kids that are just not identifies,
Jayson Davies
I can think of that kid in my head. Yeah, and, and I've also, he's also the kid that in the classroom, like you're saying, isn't getting the attention, even though he's probably the brightest kid in the classroom. He's not getting the attention that he may get otherwise, because other students are more outward with their behaviors, I guess you could say and you know, they're very much attend. They demand the attention based upon the behaviors that they exhibit.
Debbie Lund
Definitely for sure. And then there's the sensory seeker the sensory Craver, and those kids are still under responses. They're not getting the intensity that they need. But unlike the passive under responder, they're seeking out what they need their brain is continuously telling them light me up on more important I need to grow. We got to get you got to get me this in for if you want me to attend, I need to move if you want me to listen, I need to move you know, it's always trying to get organized by seeking massive amounts of input. So that's, that's the seeker and then there's the over responder that is presence and then there's the overall responder who avoids situation so they have such negative experiences with the cafeteria or you know such negative experiences with lighting situation or maybe noise or a public situation that they avoid interacting or those situations, just the thought of it gives them anxiety so they avoid those events or situation. Yeah, stimuli. Yeah, thanks. So those are basically the three Oh, and then their sensory based motor disorder. So there's that sensory modulation disorder. And then there's sensory discrimination disorder. And then sensory based motor disorder is actually two types and one is postural disorder and one is dyspraxia. So postural disorder is, so these are obviously difficulties with motor function and motor output. So the way we receive process and respond to sensory information for executing motor responses is affected, okay? So your postural disorder is that you have poor strength, and it's rooted in like a core strength, your core strength, your endurance is poor, poor motor skills, poor bilateral skills, here, we get into more ocular motor skills are affected I hands affected, and they struggle to stabilize their body to do functional skills at school, whether it be sitting themselves up in a chair, sitting themselves up in line, or stabilizing their bodies in order to like hit a ball with a bat or play, catch, etc. And then the other one is dyspraxia, which is, um, this is disorder in, there's a breakdown in the areas of motor planning. So coming up with an idea, so ideation part of motor planning, coming up with an idea for a motor plan, and then sequencing and planning that, and then executing that plan and evaluating it and changing it if it needs to be changed in order for you to do better the next time. Those are the three patterns of sensory processing disorder.
Jayson Davies
And I wrote him down just so he can, it's sensory modulation disorder, sensory discrimination disorder, and then the sensory based motor disorder. And there are kind of some subcategories within each of those,
Debbie Lund
yes,
Jayson Davies
we're not going to review all of them, you said them. If you want to go back, use that 3o second rewind button on your podcast, and you can go back and break it down, each one
Debbie Lund
The Star Institute has is a great place to go if you're interested in getting information like Lucy Miller, um, there's some great books I can talk about later on, as well to some resources for sensory processing. But if you're interested in learning more about it, the star Institute is a good is a good place to start.
Jayson Davies
I actually want to ask you a question based upon those you mentioned three main types, and then a few subtypes. How often would you say or I don't know, just frequency, whatever. Do you think that they often occur independently? Or do you think that they are often co morbid, potentially where kids who might have a sensory based motor disorder also has a modulation or discrimination disorder?
Debbie Lund
Definitely, So you know, I took there's, there's some great courses actually offered by a woman named Julia Harper. They're online, Julia Harper. And she, she owns a company called therapies. But, and that's where I got a lot of my training in terms of how to do assessment specific to brain areas, like we were talking about in terms of sensory processing, and what it looks like. And then protocols associated with those to help improve processing. But you know, based on that information, and a lot of other information that that I've received over the years, the idea is, is that if there's a modulation disorder, then that's that's happening at a lower level in the brain. So modulation disorder happens closer to the point of entry, we'll say, okay, where the inputs coming up through our central nervous system and our spinal cord, and then a sensory based motor disorders. And then sensory discrimination disorders are happening in areas higher than that. So if you have a modulation disorder, you're going to have some patterns, or some symptoms of affection, like affected areas above. So what's really interesting is that in these protocols, and in the teaching that that I got through those courses, was that you would learn where to start treatment and how to treat that area of the brain, and then prove and then move to the next area of the brain. So you have a systematic protocol approach in order to isn't Yeah, for treatment. So yes, they can be comorbid.
Jayson Davies
And you actually, I mean, it makes it sound more like it's not that they can be comorbid. Yeah, it's more like they often will be comorbid.
Debbie Lund
Yes.
Jayson Davies
Especially if it's that lower brain the sensory modulation, I think you said it was
Debbie Lund
like he was a child and you find that they have a modulation disorder, then they're going to have difficulty and a lot. Yeah. I think a lot of kids Who were identified and referred to us for sensory. It's because they have some sort of a modulation decided maybe that's wrong. I don't I think in my experience, I get motor referrals, but I get motor referrals more associated with fine motor skills than sensory based motor, the teachers don't know sensory based motor.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And I also think I also think when it comes to sensory referrals, a lot of times for teachers, it is the modulation aspect and the behaviors that are due to the modulation aspect that the teacher feels is inhibiting the student's learning as opposed to the motor side. So yeah, definitely. All right, well, we got a good recap now a good introduction to SPD and the different types as well as some ADHD and so we're gonna continue on here. And I want to ask you, in schools we don't do especially not OTs, I mean, we're not allowed to diagnose but even psychologists in the schools don't diagnose they they do a report, they do an evaluation, but they're not diagnosing who is the person that would typically diagnose a child with either ADHD, SPD autism or whatever it might be.
Debbie Lund
I have like, I don't know if that changes that varies state to state, I'm not 100% sure to be honest with you. But I know here in Florida, it can be it can be your pediatrician, honestly, or it can actually be. And that's what's so interesting to me is that it can go from being your pediatrician with, with from what my family's report being a sort of questionnaire based subjective, or objective sort of experiences based on the parents reports to being on neuropsychologist, who does a full gamut of evaluation, or like a psycho educational psychologist who does a full gamut of learning, you know, so there's a variety of people who provide diagnosis for ADHD. Yeah, gotcha.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I think that's absolutely, I think that's pretty consistent here. I think now it's starting to go a little bit more above the pediatrician because I think they're just kind of that refer out here a little bit. I would always recommend, I think, to a parent that if they feel that they need more information, I would definitely recommend reaching out to trying to get your pediatrician to refer you to a neuro psych especially in neuroscience, not a psychologist but definitely a neuro psych.
Debbie Lund
Definitely neuro psych i think is the best neuro behavioral if you can get somebody that's it. That's I think those I've had the best success in terms of comprehensive assessments and like, explaining to parents what's going on, and them having an understanding of what's going on. I think, neuropsychologist know behavioral sort of an end to end. I've had a lot of great, say, Good psychologists, as well. But I think you want to have a comprehensive evaluation.
Jayson Davies
I don't think I think you kind of mentioned the pediatrician, they might just do a little subjective type of questionnaire. And yeah, I mean, great. You have a diagnosis, but what have you really learned from that subjective question?
Debbie Lund
Right. Exactly, totally. And there's a lot to learn.
Jayson Davies
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I know a lot of parents do a great job at trying to figure out what to learn through going to trainings that maybe we might go to, and parents are doing it because their child has a diagnosis. Which brings us actually to the next question, we just did a great review of ADHD and sensory processing. But we use a lot of jargon, we were talking about epinephrine and door and dopamine in parts of the brain, when you're sitting in an IEP or you're maybe it's not an IEP, maybe it's a private student. How do you go about explaining the difference between ADHD and sensory processing? Or I know, sometimes we're not comparing sometimes we're explaining it separately. But how do you explain that to a parent in a way that they understand?
Debbie Lund
So I def, if I'm trying to explain the differences between the two, I definitely do talk about parts of that the differences that there's processing happening in different parts of the brain, and therefore we need different treatments and different type of therapies or interventions to support performance, right, and optimize brain growth and function. So I will talk a little bit about parts of the brain if I think they're interested. You know, it really depends on the parent and you have to feel your parents out in terms of what kind of information they need. So I will talk about brain differences with some parents, I often, but I think the biggest piece is that children who have Sensory Processing Disorder need sensory experiences and sensory interventions in order to support their attention. Whereas children who just have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder won't necessarily benefit from sensory experiences to support their attention because of these different areas of the brain that it's happening in. So it's important for us to know, you know, do a good assessment and understand what's going on so that we can give the right interventions and children with ADHD, you know, that there's, they're prescribed medication, and a lot of kids have had a lot of success with medication where that's not indicated for kids with sensory processing disorder unless it's calm, calm, or more morbid. So
Gotcha, yeah, it's hard. It is, and I think as long as we stay
Debbie Lund
it's not too late like it. And it's hard to explain, like how you would explain it to them, because it is very different for each parent, I think you have to be client centered in terms of who you're talking to, like, if a if a, if a child's parent is a doctor, you know, you're gonna come in and deliver a different message than maybe if this is their first experience and ever having the conversation about development or, you know, neuroanatomy or, you know, whatever.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And then the same way also, depending on how their child is presenting to, I mean, making a specific to the way that their child was presenting. Yeah. All right, so you actually started to talk a little bit about the assessment process in there. And so I want to jump into that that evaluation process what how do you kind of go through assuming, let's almost use an example, if you get a child who someone says, Hey, they're having difficulty with attention, they may be seeking out some sensory stimuli? Where do you go from there? What's your brain start to? Where does your brain start to take you as far as what you're going to evaluate?
Debbie Lund
Well, I, I am generally what I generally do in my product, like what the company is, I've created a lot of questionnaires and screening tools that go over various areas of development, so I can hone in and I can better focus my lens for assessment, you know, so I get that feedback back. And I identify by by that, whether I see that there are sensory that this is definitely within the area of sensory processing in that area of development and, and whether or not I feel that they need to see me for a story if they if I should refer out to say good for us, depending on the symptoms, and how the teachers fill up those questionnaires. Okay, so that's where I start is trying to figure out what the first point of access should be. Because I have that Liberty because I'm in private school. So I'm, I'm working with the schools closely and they've been various, some of my schools have been in very, very awesome about calling me to do the screening, first as an OT, and I'm the first point of access for these kiddos. And then we discussed, you know, what we're going to talk to the parents about next. So that's really quite lovely. So that's, that's, that's where we start. And then if there are sensory symptoms associated or if there's behaviors that the teacher is observing, that look like they're rooted in, in sensory or reflective of seeking or avoiding or sensory based motor, etc, then I'll go in, and there's a few assessments, you know, that that we can choose from. So there's the sensory processing measure, which is, there's one for home and it's one from school, that's really great to give you information in terms of you're looking for a significant result for scoring. It will it breaks down the various senses and social participation in motor planning, etc. It's a great tool. There's also the sensory profile, which is when he does, she does, she has a great, great tool that helps a lot with identifying modulation and regulation. And that then I assess reflexes primitive reflexes, because that's all within that same area of the brain. And it gives me an idea of the processing is actually happening in those sensory upper brainstem areas.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and if I can interrupt I am. So I don't know how to say this. I have not taken any trainings on primitive reflexes. I know very, very tiny. I know very little about it. I actually had a guest on way back in episode like 32, maybe way back when about it. And I've never actually got more into it. But I'm hearing so much about primitive reflexes and sensory being very combined the kind of like what you were just saying, so do you have any resources or any classes that you actually might recommend for primitive reflexes?
Debbie Lund
There's quite a few courses. It depends on how comprehensive you want to. But you know, what I can do is I can put some together for you and you can put them in the comments of this section. Based on because the thing I think the thing that's heartbreaking for me for us as OTs is that it's so it's it can be so expensive. Yeah, especially for new grads and whatnot. For us to Get the education that's needed in or like talk about in accessibility, right? So it's trying to find these courses that give you what you need considering your role in the school or what you're doing in the community or what your ambitions are for a career that are affordable for you. So there's there's a variety of different courses. There's one that's very comprehensive. There's another one through therapies who is the woman I just spoke about, which is excellent thing that I like about her courses as well is that she breaks them up into modules. So the first module you'll take, I think it's like $200, or two to $300 or something. And it's just on sensory modulation, then the next one's on regulation, then the next one's on and you can take them in pieces like that digesting information larva, but she also has a primitive reflexes that specific to clot to to school. Oh, interesting. All right. As well,
Jayson Davies
alright, I cut you off here. But what other assessment tools do you use as well?
Debbie Lund
So those are like I do my sensory profiles, my sensory processing, measure primitive reflexes, and then we're moving up into movement, right? So we're talking, I get beyond getting a sensory based motor and trying to get some more data to support that there's a motor issue happening. So then I start looking at using tools like movement, ABC, or the bot. Do you use those ones?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I mean, I'm very familiar with the BOT, I don't use the Berry as much, but that's because the psychologists tend to use it. And so instead, I might use the WRAVMA, or like the DTVP, or something, you never use the WRAVMA, it's very, it's very similar to the berry, you have your visual spatial component, then you have your visual motor component. And then the motor coordination is different. It has a peg test, but it doesn't have the the VMI has like where you stay in the lines, right, you have to basically trace the same line. Yeah, it doesn't have that one. Instead, it has a pegboard speed test, which I very rarely use. But I use the first two parts, kind of like the VMI I feel like no one uses the entirety VMI they just use like to subtests
Debbie Lund
depends on what your your,
your motivation
Debbie Lund
is right necessity, and everybody has their way. So that is so those those and then like some ocular motor assessments. So those are n generally for ocular motor, what I do, although I've taken a lot of great courses for like, astronaut training, and you know, like, I love integrated listening. So like I've done a lot of different things that includes a hand or visual motor integration, and ocular motor skills and tracking that incorporate that multi sensory piece, I generally do a screen and then talk to the family about seeing a developmental Optometrit or opthamologist just Yeah, because I just adopts and I want to make sure that there isn't something else going on eye health wise, etc. So I'm very, very aware of my area of competency. And I generally screen out, I generally refer out or give the families and power the families with the choice to do that, with the information that I collected. If I if I find that there's an ocular motor concern there.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I do something similar. I often use just like a tennis ball and play some different games with the tennis ball to look at ocular motor skills a little bit, whether it be well and I know the bot has some tennis ball stuff built into it. If you go that far enough into the I can't remember which sub tests It is one of those sub tests but yeah, I think, yeah, playing catch dribbling, and throwing a ball at a target. So that'll give you a little bit but I go a little bit further than just having like toss the ball to themselves a little bit and just trying to focus on those eyes while they're playing with a ball game. Alright, so that's some sensory process or testing that you might do with sensory processing do anything differently if you might think more the ADHD side.
Debbie Lund
So I ADHD I generally So generally, if I'm screening in the relationship that I have, like, if there's nothing going on from a sensory motor and ocular motor, I start thinking multidisciplinary team family wants to find out what's going on. It's more rooted in psycho emotional or maybe anxiety or those executive functions. But I say, you know, your first stop should be a neuro psychologist and she sends you back to me or we decide we have functional behaviors to happen, then come back to me and we'll work on it, but, you know, start there and come back. So I agree, but yeah, okay, good.
Jayson Davies
I just think I think it's important.
Debbie Lund
I don't know. Everybody has a different practice, right? Yeah. No, I
Jayson Davies
think it's important You know, I almost I am a big believer and that I think we need to have a psycho educational evaluation to really have a good OT evaluation at least upon in the schools. I think we really should have that learning testing that's going on and some of those other tests that are going on.
Debbie Lund
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think one discipline should be responsible for like I do a lot of that within my company. But that's different than a school based like a I'm, you know, it's different than like a public school system where there Yes, cycad is a very, very important, but so is OT I think, especially in terms of the the younger ones, like when they're really little, a lot of developmental pieces that are so important, go missed, because we aren't there first, or we our perspective isn't considered right off the get go. Do you know what I'm saying? Where? So I played with a lot of models where I like I was mentioning earlier, we do the screening, we go in and decide who we're going to refer out to, once we've done those fundamental developmental neurodevelopmental type of screens, you know?
Jayson Davies
Absolutely.
Debbie Lund
Yeah, totally. I think cycad is so important. So is speech, so is PT, you know what I mean? Like, it all has such a massive role in the kid, and the kids development and their their progress and intervention. So once the child has been referred to psychology, or if I'm doing a screen, sometimes I'll do an assessment called the test of information processing skills. I don't know if you've heard about it, it's not very common, but it actually tests the child's short term, like their sensory memory, their working memory, and then their delayed recall for both visual and auditory. So you can see if there's a difficult time receiving processing and responding from those and whether there's differences in terms of their profit information processing skills with those two areas.
Jayson Davies
And what was the name of that one, again,
Debbie Lund
It's called the it's called the TIPS is the test of information processing skills. So it's really, I really like it in terms of coming up with in terms of like accessing new learning. And, you know, our kiddos who are struggling to fartlek working memory is huge for our kids in terms of access, and in terms of being successful and following instructions. And, you know, being able to execute any sort of multiple step. So I like to have that information, because it will show you if there's a statistical difference as well, which is really valuable. So which so if a child has stronger visual processing skills than auditory processing skills, that will be reflected in the assessment. And then you can then make recommendations in the classroom, for how the child's accommodations to be or support should be more visual or more auditory to meet their learning style. So I love that I like that test for that, that that type of information, and then maybe in terms of like, maybe the child has an auditory processing difficulty, or maybe the child needs to see a vision therapy, like, you know, somebody, an eye doctor,
Jayson Davies
yeah. Okay. So, I'm not going to, we're actually getting a little close to be toward the end of our time, which is perfectly fine. So we're going to skip ahead now just a little bit to some recommendations that you might provide to both a teacher and a parent, based upon your outcomes. We just don't have time to get into like solid treatment. But what are some recommendations that you would give to a parent and or a teacher, based upon maybe a will start with sensory processing disorder? What what recommendations might you give?
Debbie Lund
Okay, so I think that always for both of them, I always start with how important how much research search there is everywhere and evidence to support this everywhere. Sleep, nutrition, exercise, for doesn't matter if you have ADHD, if you have sensory processing disorder, the effect of a lack of sleep poor nutrition or not enough exercise on brain growth and neuroplasticity is everywhere, nobody can deny that. So, you know, even if it's your sensory processing system that's affecting your sleep, nutrition, you know, or if it's your, you know, executive functions, difficulties biorhythms whatever it is. Start there, get those, the quarter nailed down. That is such an important foundation for any future change. So I definitely recommend that those are the first first steps. All right,
Jayson Davies
I just sorry. In my in my mind I just came up with you know how people come up with those like words to remember things. Yeah pneumonic devices is that what theray are called? pneumonic? I just thought of Super Nintendo, it's often or NES is what they call and so I'm going to use any as as nutrition, exercise, sleep any Yes. Yes. nutrition, exercise and sleep. That's the core.
Debbie Lund
Yeah, it's so important, those are so important. And then you know, if it's sensory based, you know, trying to get educated yourself as a parent or as a teacher, and what that looks like what the child's specific profile looks like, whether they're over responsive, under responsive whether they have, so that you can then teach them and empower them with the education about themselves that they need in order to self regulate, and access and advocate for themselves and access activities or environments that support brain growth and success, you know, so get getting educated and learning as much as you can by working with a professional that specializes. So whether that be like psych or whether that be OT I think for OT you know, we do a lot of interventions, with alerting activities, calming activities, organizing activities, we use different tools and different strategies to support moving through those areas. So
Jayson Davies
sorry, I just thought of a question I wanted to ask before we went too much further. And that was, do you know of any great resources for parents that when you say, Hey, I think your student might have a sensory processing disorder, I think that your student might be over under react under reacting to sensory stimuli? Do you have any particular resources that you might share with that parent? Whether it be a book, a website?
Debbie Lund
Yes. So the first I Love Lucy Jane Miller's book, sensational kids, okay,
Jayson Davies
transitional kids. For anyone who's obviously this isn't a visual, but Deb is right now reaching back to find her.
Debbie Lund
Sensational kids hope and help for children with sensory processing disorder. That's awesome. That's a great book. It's very, it's very informative. And then the out of sync child is another I can give you a list as well, if you want to attach them to.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, absolutely.
Debbie Lund
And then there's a few great websites that I also recommend for information that I can send.
Jayson Davies
Yes, just send it to me. Yeah. And when for anyone that I mean,
Debbie Lund
share it with no problem.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I'll put it up on the on the show notes, which should be well, it'd be OTschoolhouse.com/podcast forward slash podcast and find the episode number for this episode. And you will be able to get all of the links and great stuff that we're talking about today. Great. So we'll go ahead and do that.
Debbie Lund
I'm putting that together.
Jayson Davies
Alright. And then where were we Oh, yeah, recommend recommendations for parents and or teachers, I think you have a few more things I don't know.
Debbie Lund
So I always I think that in terms of teachers to like appreciating the magnitude of a sensory diet, or incorporating movement breaks or sensory breaks to give those kids that input they need. And like teaching, teaching parents and children undertake teaching parents about children, or therapists, teachers about children. In terms, I think what I think sometimes teachers and parents don't realize that it's an accumulation of experiences or a lack thereof throughout the day. So the idea of a sensory diet is that, you know, if a child is over responsive, we'll say if we're incorporating calming and organizing activities throughout the day, the chances of them experiencing overload becomes a lot less because we're helping them to organize and regulate the experiences that they're having. And when we provide, you know, supports, like sound dampening earphones, or we put the shields over the lights in the classrooms. So those one of those terrible lines, fluorescent
Jayson Davies
fluorescent lights, yeah,
Debbie Lund
yeah.
Debbie Lund
When we put the blue shields over top of that, we're actually supporting dampening the intensity of that input or them so that they, they sustain a regulated state and if you were intense experiences throughout the day, and that's the same with a child who's under responsive who needs more so if you can incorporate movement and exercise and alerting activities for that child, you're better able to keep them in it and adjust rate level like an optimal performance level and not in a low state, or have them overseeing and hopping up into like an an overstimulated state. Gotcha. That's my takeaway for sensory processing. for ADHD. I think those those tools are more executive functions. So we're looking more at like, exercise is still key. But using a lot of techniques for regulation that are cognitive based and top down based. So we've got some great programs. So coming at OT like zones of regulation, a lot of kids have emotional regulation, difficulties that are rooted and an intertwined with sensory issues as well. So that's a great curriculum that has some awesome visuals for the classroom that helps kids to learn how to regulate their emotions and sensory systems. And a really big one, too, I think is and it's so simple is just like, taking abstract terms that they use, like be a good listener, and making them concrete. Do you know what I'm saying? Like I think it's a social thinking curriculum has Larry the Larry's listening tool, and it's a boy. And it's basically he teaches you through a poster and a whole book, there's, it's a part of the curriculum that like, what does it mean to be a good listener, a good listener listens with their eyes, they listen with their brain, because they're thinking about what the person is saying they listen. So taking those abstract things, making them very con create and putting visual reminders on the wall, are helpful for those kiddos who just need those, those ongoing reminders. And the visuals are supportive there for them throughout the day to remind them of those things. Yeah. Right. And then mindfulness and yoga and breathing. And there's a lot of strategies associated with regulations for that for kids. And then and then obviously, I don't recommend medication, not that I'm against medication, but that's far outside of my area of conflict. Like that's not what I do.
Jayson Davies
I have been in too many IEP meetings, and I'm the same way I don't, I might ask a parent, like what medication they're on. But that's specifically for my evaluation purposes, basically, right? Just so I have it documented. But I cringe when I hear a teacher or an ABA therapist or PT or anyone be like I, you know, maybe you should try.
Debbie Lund
That makes my stomach because that is so not within your realm of right. Yeah, I know that. Be very careful. Because another thing as well is like as a parent, you like what your teacher you're not in the classroom, right? You don't know what your child's doing from the time a little. So a teacher's recommendations to you and a teacher's perspective on how your kid is doing at school, and what is going to support them. Here is a lot of weight in a lot of cases. So you really have to be careful about what you're saying for sure. Definitely.
Jayson Davies
It's one thing to provide knowledge that there are options out there. It's another thing
Debbie Lund
to try to persuade someone, or in some cases, I've even like people like teachers, parents come to me saying that they they're at this point, they feel guilty because they haven't medicated their child because they're teachers. So Oh,
Jayson Davies
yeah. On top of them. Yeah.
Debbie Lund
Yes, on top of them that it would improve their life. And, you know,
Jayson Davies
yeah, Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Go get your get your doctorate degree if you want to do that. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Well, let's go ahead. And actually, I think we're, I think we've given out several strategies of what we can do. Let's go ahead and wrap this up. And as we do, I want to give you an opportunity to kind of share a little bit about where people can find more about you. And you've already shared so many resources. And we're gonna, again, like we mentioned earlier, put some of those in the show notes, but any other resource or recommended resources that you might have, where people can learn more about you, ADHD and sensory processing.
Debbie Lund
Okay, so so I'll give you a list to definitely of the resources that I talked about for sensory processing, and for ADHD. And we'll put those in the notes. I would like to share that I'm getting ready to launch a variety of courses for teachers to begin with. So for classrooms for teachers, and then later on for parents that are solution focused and action plan focus. So So in my career in working so much with teachers, their number one complaint is that we're not taught this in school. So we spend so much time at the door as an OT, struggling between what we can do with that five minutes with the T shirt. If you're like, do I take this moment to educate them? Or do I just give them the tool and hope they're going to implement it? Or? No, you don't know what they don't know. And you're like trying to get this information to them. And if you give them a handout, are they going to read it like, what this situation is? So I'm in terms of improving accessibility for kiddos, neurotypical neurodiverse, whatever, I am creating some some courses that are available, and they're going to go through those areas of development, sensory motor, and then executive functions. It's going to be based on what is it like we just talked about sensory, and then it's going to talk about red flags if there's something going wrong, and then it goes into some strategies and support. So I'm not expecting them to be therapists. But I'm offering education on why particular strategies and not strategies, but accommodations or how to strategies, yeah, strategies. So particular strategies or tools can actually be solutions, because we're using them with these particular kids. So if you're an OT, and you're really solution based, and you're looking for a variety of tools, and tricks, and strategies and tips associated, I will give you a discount code if you want to as an offer, because they're not designed for OTs, particularly, they're designed for teachers and parents. So there'll be a discount code available for you. But if it's something that you think your teachers or your schools might be interested in, please follow me share with your families share with anybody who you think it might support, I would appreciate it so much. I just think there's such a massive disconnect between our professions. And you know, as OTs, we're trying to do all of this with the children, and then the teachers are trying to do something, and we need to come together more to support each other and be on the same page with what we're doing. So and once that change is made, so much so much more can be done in terms of the system, you know,
Jayson Davies
yeah. And are you doing that through empowerment plans are to fish therapy.
Debbie Lund
So I'm doing that through, I'm doing it through to fish therapy. But empowerment plans is actually the tool. So for every course of the teacher takes they're actually going to fill out their action plan as they're taking it. So as they're learning empowerment plans is actually the name that I've given the plan that there so when they leave a course, they're going to know exactly what they're implementing in the classroom. So if we're talking about we're talking about sand dampening earphones, if we're talking about whatever the strategies are using auditory tracks, any technology they're going to, they're going to have it all listed out and ready to go what they're going to implement when they leave that classroom. So an empowerment plan is taking you from education to action. And that's that's what it is. But it's not going to be the company. It's more of a tool. Gotcha. That the courses.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha. And so they can learn more about that at to fish therapy calm. Yeah, that's
Debbie Lund
the fish therapy. Yeah.
Jayson Davies
Great. Well, thank you so much,
Debbie Lund
especially my social media outlets. So if you're interested follow to fish on Instagram or follow to fish at Facebook.
Jayson Davies
Sounds good. Awesome. Yeah, we'll have that listed on the note page is as well. So we'll get to that. All right. Great. Well, Deb, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure talking to you for the about an hour now. It's been really great. I appreciate it. And thank you so much for coming on.
Debbie Lund
No, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Jayson Davies
Of course. You too. Yeah. Thank you for all the information on both ADHD and sensory processing. Thank you so much.
Debbie Lund
My pleasure. Thank you.
Jayson Davies
Alright, and that is going to wrap up our episode on ADHD and sensory processing disorder. Again, another huge thank you to Deb for coming on the show and sharing with us the difference between the two the similarities between the two, and then what she does based upon whether or not she's thinking sensory processing or ADHD. Again, thank you, whatever you are doing right now if you're driving at the gym, whatever it might be. Thank you so much for joining me today on the OT schoolhouse podcast. Until next time, take care. Bye.
Amazing Narrator
Thank you for listening to the OT School House podcast. For more ways to help you and your students succeed right now. Head on over to OTschoolhouse.com until next time, class is dismissed.
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