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OTSH 79: Budgeting & Tackling Student Loans With Amirra Condelee, OTD, OTR/L




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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 79 of the OT School House Podcast.


Money makes the world go round.


It's that simple...


Okay, well, maybe it's not that simple. But even if you don't believe that money makes the world go around, as an occupational therapist or occupational therapy assistant who has graduated in the past 10 years, you know that money does pay your student loans. That is one thing for sure.


So on this episode of the OT School House podcast, we have Amirra Condelee, OTR/L, who you may know as @marvelousmiracles.OT on Instagram, to share her experiences as a new grad occupational therapist trying to pay off student loans.


We're going to talk about some different ways to go about paying off your student loans and a little bit about the idea of refinancing your loans. Amirra is also going to share with us where she and her significant other are at in relationship to their student loan process,


If you have ever felt overwhelmed by your student loans or even just finances in general, you're not going to want to miss this episode


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Episode Transcript

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Amazing Narrator

Hello, and welcome to the OT School House podcast, your source for school-based occupational therapy, tips, interviews, and professional development. Now to get the conversation started here is your host, Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.


Jayson Davies

Money makes the world go round. It's that simple. Okay, well, maybe it's not that simple. But even if you don't believe that money makes the world go round, as an occupational therapist, occupational therapy assistant, even, especially someone who's graduated in the past 10 years, as an OT or an OTA, you know that money does pay your student loans. That is one thing for sure. Today, on the podcast, we have Amirra Condelee, you may know her as a marvelousmiraclesOT on Instagram, and she is coming on to share her experiences as a new grad, an occupational therapist trying to pay off student loans. So we're going to talk about some different ways to go about paying off your student loans and talk a little bit about refinancing different options. And she's also going to share where she's at in her student loan process, not just herself, but also her significant other, and how they are managing their student loans both together and kind of in their own way. So you're not going to want to miss this if you have student loans. Or if you're thinking about potentially negotiating for another job in the near future. This is definitely going to be an episode that you want to listen to. As I said, Amira is a new-ish grad, as she says on her Instagram page, and she is going through all of this. In fact, the day that this podcast launches, she's actually doing a webinar tonight on money matters as an occupational therapist, where she's talking about all this stuff and more. So you are getting a sneak preview of that right here in an interview format. Be sure to check her out on Instagram at marvelous miracles.ot. And I'm sure if you type in her name or look down in the show notes, we will have a link to her website. All right, so enjoy this episode with Amirra Condelee. Hey, Amira, welcome to the OT School House podcast. How are you doing today?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Hi, Jayson. I'm doing great. How are you?


Jayson Davies

I am doing wonderful. Thank you so much for asking. You know, I have to start off by first just saying I love your Instagram page. Everything that you are doing over there. It's not only so much information, but it's also just super amazingly cute. Just like it makes me happy. I get on there just like oh, I like this.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Thank you so much. I feel the same way about yours. I'm so happy that we have this OT Instagram community to make these amazing connections.


Jayson Davies

Absolutely. I'd love it. You know what, tell us a little bit actually about your Instagram. What is your kind of purpose for your Instagram account?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes, so I started my Instagram a little over a year ago. Now during quarantine, I just wanted to explore the social media Avenue and I'm so glad I did. And so my whole purpose over there. So just share life as a new-ish graduate and OT graduate and I talk about my job in an early intervention I talk about so many things just you know my life, how I navigate being a new OT, you know, providing that mentorship to other students and kind of helping them get their foot in the door in certain settings that they might be interested in. So you know, just really sharing life as a new grad and a new grad and early intervention. And I absolutely love it. Awesome.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, as I said, it's so much fun to watch over there, your stories, your actual pose, they all just kind of cohesively come together. Well done.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Thank you.


Jayson Davies

Marvelous...


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

marvelousmiracles.ot


Jayson Davies

Yeah, marvelousmiracles, I didn't want to mess it up marvelousmiracles.ot. So go ahead, if you got your phone out right now, open the Instagram app and find them here. Trust me, you won't regret it. It's great stuff. Alright, so moving on a little bit. That's the Instagram account. But you do have a "day job" or at least one "day job". So tell us a little bit about the actual occupational therapy job that you do during the week.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

So I work in the amazing setting of early intervention. I work with kiddos from the ages of birth to three years old, who have a delay and one or more areas of child development. We used to provide therapy directly in the homes but since COVID, we went virtual and we are still virtual, and we're trying to get some benchmarks met before we're able to go back into the homes. I very much seeing miss seeing my kids and my babies and my families in person. But I'm so glad that teletherapy has been an option and has been working very well. So I do that as my full-time job but I also do independent contracting on the side as my part-time job. And that is through my business called marvelous miracles pediatric therapy, kind of independent contracting, plus my Instagram brand and some things that I do there. It's kind of lumped into that one business and I am a supervisor for I think I have three or four Now OT assistants that I supervise. And then I also see only about four kids a week through that independent contracting job. And that is also virtual, but it used to be me going into the homes, and that is pediatric home health. So they're all over the age of three.


Jayson Davies

Gotcha. That's a lot going on. Let's break it down a little bit. So let's talk about the first job that you mentioned early intervention, you're doing that. We're talking about finances today. So I'll kind of want to break down some things that we typically want to talk about, you're a W-2 employee for that job, correct?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Correct. Yes.


Jayson Davies

And so just for anyone who may be listening, W-2 job and Amirra feel free to jump in anytime. That means that they're taking your taxes out, you may have an option to jump in with insurance, if it's a large enough company, they should have some sort of an insurance plan that you can join into, they probably have some sort of a 401k type of program that you can jump into that sound familiar or no?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

That is typically how the meaty jobs are. So my job, they do take out the taxes. And they do provide insurance, they do health insurance, and I also get dental and vision insurance. But I do not actually have a 401k. And I'm sure we'll get into that later. And that wasn't that was something that I knew that I wasn't going to have with this position. And so typically, just with a W-2 position, you get a handful of benefits. And so most of my benefits are around insurance, I get like a work laptop, and also, I cover a really faraway region, that's about two and a half hours. And so they would pay for my housing out there, when I would go and stay for a couple of days, they would pay for that hotel room. But if I was an independent contractor, I would have to cover that expense myself. So typically, with a W-2 job, your salary is going to be a little bit on the lower side, but it's made up for in a package of benefits.


Jayson Davies

Absolutely, I was just having a conversation about that the other day, you're right, you tend to make a little bit more as a contractor, but you also have more expenses typically.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Correct. So with my independent contracting job, they do not take out any taxes, and it's a significantly higher rate than my W-2 job. But I have to set aside money for filing taxes, both federal and state, I also have to have my own professional liability insurance, and you know, all of those insurances that come with having a business. And you know, the company doesn't provide anything other than basically referring me to clients who need OT services. So that's kind of the trade-off is that it is a much higher salary. But I have to be very careful with how much expenses I'm racking up. And knowing that I am not going to have benefits. But again, I have a W-2 job. So I get my benefits through there.


Jayson Davies

Absolutely. Wow. So much to consider when you have two completely different types of jobs, right?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Oh, absolutely. And I will say I was at my W-2 job for about eight months before I took on that second job.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, that's probably a good idea, especially as a newer grad OT Oh, definitely just stick to one job for a little bit before taking on something else.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes, exactly.


Jayson Davies

Well, you know what, I'm going to take this opportunity, actually, you haven't worked in a school district, many of the OTs that listen to this, their options are often that 1099 position, or like I think your other job kind of is where you are contracted for a company, you work for that company, but you're contracted to another agency. So maybe you work for my therapycompany.com or my therapy company, but my therapy company is then using you to work at whatever school district and that's how some contracts, jobs work, you are an employee for them, but you're contracted through them for another agency. On the flip side, the other percentage of people that work or that listen to this podcast, they're actual employees of the school district. And being an employee of the school district is very similar to what we were just talking about as a W two employee, you do get a W-2 at the end of the year, that lists all your how much you made, how many benefits you got, personally, again, this is more specific to the environments that I've worked in Southern California, is if you work for a school district, you actually now some are making more than what that 1099 contractor may be making. And you have a lot of great benefits. And so people are really interested in and getting into a district position because you do have typically districts here at least in Southern California, they're paying for your insurance completely. And you don't have to pay anything out of pocket for the insurance. Of course, you have to pay out of pocket for co-pays or whatnot. But then you do have all the access to a 403-B which is the public sector of a 401-K. So yeah, it's very interesting, all the different types of settings that an occupational therapist can work in. There's just so much going on. Alright, that was a lot This is an unusual podcast, usually we're talking about OT, but we're talking about money today. And it gets real when you start talking about money. So...


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

But I think it's important that we do have these conversations surrounding finance and money and student loan debt and income and negotiation. Even as an occupational therapist, I think that there's so much taboo surrounding the money conversation. And that's something that I've started to incorporate more even within my own Instagram page that like I said, is primarily me talking about, you know, all of the rainbows and butterflies that comes with being an OT, but also I want to spend time talking about my student loan debt that I have, that's pretty significant, and how that's impacted just my lifestyle as a new teen, you know, those types of conversations that I've been having on my Instagram page have really, really resonated with so many, you know, or has really resonated with so many people in that community. And I really appreciate just having this conversation with you today. Because I think that a lot of times people feel bad people in like the healthcare room, or just that type of sector, we shouldn't talk about money, because we're just doing it, because we love it. And we have a heart for it. But it's also really important to talk about the financial aspects of things, too.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, and I don't think it's a secret at all right now that if you're going to go get a degree in occupational therapy, whether it's a Master's or a Doctorate, you're looking at $100,000 Plus, and unless you're able to get scholarships, and unless you're able to, I don't know, work and make $100,000 to pay it off in four years, that's not gonna happen. I mean, it's tough, even an Occupational Therapy Assistant job, or not a job, but a degree to be an OTA. I've seen those private schools like in 60 years in the 60,000 range. And that's ridiculous even more if you go to a private school. And it seems like a lot of people are either if they want to get into this field, they have to choose between being on a waitlist at a public school for two, three years to get in in order to pay a little bit less to get that degree, or they can pay up overpay. Some people might say, and go to a private school and get in right away. It's still competitive, but you can at least get in a little bit quicker, but it might be twice as much expensive. That's crazy. So do you mind sharing your kind of transition, maybe a little bit about if you're comfortable sharing how much you did actually come out with, and maybe a little bit about your plan for going about paying it off?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes. So I went to school in Boston, which, let's just start there. It's an extremely high cost of living that I did not take into account, you know, as far as housing, just everything that comes with living in a higher cost of living city. So I went to school in Boston. And I won't say that's my first mistake. But I will say that's the first thing that I should have considered is where I was going to school. And I am originally from North Carolina, and I have the option to go to school in Virginia, which would have given me a much lower cost of living. So I went to school in Boston, I did go to a private school and I got an OTD. So as you can imagine, those are three enormous factors. For now, being in well over six figures of student loan debt. My program, tuition was over $100,000, I actually just checked right before we had this chat. And the incoming class right now is roughly 150,000 for the three-year OTD program, which is very, very significant. Mine was not that much because they've steadily increased that tuition and fees, overall, you know, the price tag for that degree over the years. And so it's now you know, four years difference or so and so it is roughly 150,000 miles a little bit less than that. But that is a very hefty price tag, considering what you're really going to make as an OT, I did go to the entry-level OTD program, which is also significantly more expensive than just about any other route to becoming an OT when I was looking at the profession, I was not super familiar with OT in general. And then I kept hearing these rumors without the mandate for the OTD. And I was like, well, I just want to make sure I make the right decision.


And so I decided to go to the OTD program. And so I won't say that I necessarily regret that decision. But I think that I made that decision out of a place of fear. And I didn't really take into consideration that price tag. And then the fact that again, I was living in a higher cost of living city. So I borrowed even more than that, tuition and fees that I had, I still need it more to cover my housing. I did work as a nanny and a certified newborn care specialist. And so I was making a couple extra $100 a month, but it wasn't enough to cover all of the living expenses, living expenses that go into being a full-time graduate student. So I definitely had to take out you know even more and then I also went out of state for both of my level two, so I was in Houston, Texas for my level two field works. And then I went to Seattle Children's Hospital for my, for my OTD capstone project. So then I lived out of state and so I had to borrow even more money to cover the housing out there. And so you know, you really just don't think about all of these numbers that start to add up. And then when you see Oh, my gosh, I'm in well over $100,000 of debt, once you get out, it just feels very, very overwhelming. And then you look at the income that you're going to make, and you're like, how am I ever going to pay this off? So I definitely, you know, I was kind of that person who was like, Well, I'm just going to be paying these until I die. And that's just going to be the reality of it. And I wasn't really thinking, I want to aggressively pay them off. When I first graduated, I was very overwhelmed, I was very stressed out, I had a lot of anxiety about it. And I was like, I'm just going to make the monthly minimum payments. And you know, hopefully, somebody forgives that later on down the line. And, you know, that'll be that. And my mindset definitely started to shift, I will say that I ended up getting married. And my husband is huge into finances. And so you know, we took a look at our finances, how much debt I was in how much debt he was going to be, and after his graduate program, and he was like, we need to come up with a plan. So it definitely shifted because you have to consider paying off over $100,000 as a single person with one income as an OT and then also being married having a two-person income. And you know, both of you earning pretty decent wages. And so I but I don't want that to discredit the story. I know that now I do have a two-person income. And so things are, I think I should be out of debt within the next, you know, five or so years. And when I was just single Amirra, it was looking more like eight or nine to 10 years. And so I will say that now that I am married, and I have that second income, and we're doing things together, it is going to knock down how much time it'll be for me to pay off my loans now.


Jayson Davies

And what about your husband? Did he come out of school with some debt? Or is he still in school with some debt or going to have debt or how's that looking?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes, he's graduating from his program in August, and he will also have over $100,000 of debt. So we have racked up, you know, hundreds between the two of us. And he is in a CRNA program. So he's becoming a nurse anesthetist. And so, you know, typically they do have a much higher earning. And so taking that into consideration taking the job that I live in Arizona, I work in Arizona, and it is, you know, one of the top five highest-paying states, so we both do have significantly high incomes, but we also have significantly high debt. So, you know, as I said, I don't want that to discredit anything that I'm going to say because I still think everything is still going to apply as far as needing to know your numbers, know your budgeting, stick to a strict budget, all of that even if you do make a high income, you still have that high debt too.


Jayson Davies

Absolutely. And that's a great goal that you have for you know, four or five, maybe six years trying to get that cut out. Because it's amazing. For me, I was paying like $1500 a month, I think when I came directly out of school, I mean, three months went by your grace period, as they like to call it, and then all of a sudden, boom.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

So yeah, mine was about 1300 a month, and that was only going to cover the interest.


Jayson Davies

Yep.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

That was to leave the meter exactly where it was. To not actually go towards the principal, I just needed to make the payment of 1300 a month, only to cover the interest. So I think that's something that it's so hard to wrap your head around that much money is not even decreasing my overall principal balance. And so I initially started off on just the standard repayment plan. And it was feasible for me, but I never wanted to get into a situation where I couldn't afford that really high payment. So I switched it to the income-driven repayment plan. So that lowered my monthly payments. And I just tried to do, you know, double, even sometimes triple that amount. So I mean, we're talking 1000s of dollars per month to cover the interest and the principal up until COVID happened in it went into 0% interest rate, because my loans were all federal.


Jayson Davies

So let's talk about that because I don't have my loans already paid off. So I haven't experienced this whole loan forgiveness. It's not forgiveness, but the COVID plan what happened and how is that impacted your repayment.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

So the Federal Interest rate is now 0%. Meaning I don't have to pay that 1300 to just leave the meter where it is I can use that 1300 to just attack that principal balance, which is really nice because like I said, depending on how high your overall balances, that just number to pay, your interest can be really high so it's really nice that right now it's not accumulating any interest and all of your payments are going towards your principal. balance. So that has been really nice. I will say that. So I actually misspoke, I did have two private loans through Sallie Mae, which was for undergrad school. So I won't really talk too much about that. But those are paid off, I paid those off last year, those totaled about 15,000. And so now I'm just kind of focusing on my OT school loans right now. And those are all federal. And that's nice because that's 0%. Now, if I would have refinanced it to a private, then I would not have had that 0% interest rate. So I'm really glad that I held off because that is something I considered doing to lower my overall interest rate, which was around 7%. And I could have got it at three, 2 to 3%. But I wouldn't have still been having to do that two, to 3%, if I would have refinanced with a private lender.


Jayson Davies

Wow, just so much to consider, like all the numbers being thrown around. And you know what, I actually want to ask you this, then, what did you know about loans? Before you jumped into graduate school, you might have known a little bit because at well, just a little bit, because they should, they should have told you a little bit when you're an undergrad. Right? And then they probably should have had you take another course before you took out more loans potentially in graduate school. Is that the thing still?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes, what is it called, like the exit counseling, or some type of counseling that you go through, and you go to sign up for a loan, but honestly, you just like keep scrolling, and you just click accept, and then they give you money, and you know, you're young, they give 18-19-year-olds this massive wad of money, and then you get these refund checks that you don't realize, I should probably put some of this aside to pay back, you know, once I graduate, so I would be getting these enormous relief, I mean, between 10 and like, $15,000, I was getting these refund checks while in OT school. But again, I was using those to live off of so I was using that for rent. And for utilities, my you know, car payments, basically everything because I was barely I mean, I had a job, but I was barely working. And so I was using those, you know, if I wanted to fly home for Christmas with my family, I would just use part of my refund check. So in hindsight, I probably should have not done that. I probably should have budgeted that refund check a little bit better so that I wasn't using the whole expense of it. Um, but back to your original question, Jason, which is...


Jayson Davies

Do you recall having any information about these loans prior to actually taking the loans?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Right, so, they just give you the number and you get the interest rate. But you know, what I didn't know about compound interest, I didn't realize that you would get interest on top of interest. So I think that is the biggest shock that I had is I remember getting an extra $20,000 on top of my principal balance. And I called them frantically and I was like "what just happened?" And he was like, "Oh, that's, you know, that's your interest capitalizing, that's compound interest." And I was like, "What in the world?" So, you know, you have these numbers in front of you, but you don't really understand at least you know, me, I have these numbers in front of me. And I didn't really understand what is this actually going to look like once I graduate, you know, sometimes you have loans that are accruing interest, even while you're in school, depending on which loans that you have, you are not required to pay those back or anything. But if you have loans that are steadily incurring this interest over a period of a few years, that can just significantly raise that total tab, you know, that total number, so although like I said my school right now it's at like 150,000. If you take out that full amount, you're gonna have to pay more than that back. And I think that's the part I didn't truly understand.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, because I mean, at 7%, I'm not going to do the math in my head, but 150... 7% of $150,000 is a lot. And with the compounding effect, it becomes even more, I just want to clarify because you said about the loans that are making interest while you're still in school. You don't have to pay that interest while you're in school. But you still have to pay that interest once you get out of school. Correct?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Correct? Yes. And again, that totally depends on what type of loan, you know who your lender is it it's a lot of different factors that go into it. But I did have some loans from like undergraduate that were steadily I was steadily getting charged interest. And again, that's you just you know, you're focused on becoming an OT, that's all I was thinking about him. And I was like, I'm gonna make great money when I get out. And that's a whole other conversation, but you know, how much you can realistically expect to make as a new graduate. But I was like, yeah, I'll just cross that bridge when I get to it. But I think that you really have to go into wanting to be in this profession with this in the back of your mind so that you don't end up having a fairly I mean, I make a fairly decent salary right now, but I also have massive student loan debt. So it just you know, it doesn't balance out. So I think there's just like I said that the finance conversation needs to be had, I think even before you start OT school to pick the best path for you, that's gonna set you up for financial success.


Jayson Davies

Just hearing you say that it's like a conundrum I like basically we're telling 17-year-olds that have never had to budget more than a couple, maybe a couple $100 at the most, to budget $150,000 Plus, and to figure that not budget, but to know like, "Hey, you're gonna owe $150,000 in four years, or five years, whatever that might be." That's crazy.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes


Jayson Davies

I want to cap this conversation off just a little bit with a challenge. And that is to everyone that has student loans listening right now. Next time, you get that email, it's probably on AutoPay. But the next time you get that email, look at it, and just look to see how much of your for round number $1,000 is going to interest versus how much of that $1,000 is going to principal, you might be surprised that 800 of your $1,000 is going to interest, which means that your principal is only going down by $200. And so that's what Amira was talking about, I think when she's you know, paying more so that she can knock down that principal right now, I did the same exact thing. And whenever I had some extra leftover money, boom, I put it in toward that principal, because that is the key to knocking things down. My dad always instilled in me early pay, make at least one extra payment a year, at least one extra payment a year. And you'll actually see that start to come down. And so I did that. And then whenever I could I tried to do a little bit more. You talked earlier about different types of payments that you could make, I think you said you were on the standard payment, and then you changed it to an Income-Based Payment. Do you know a little bit more about the different types of payments that are available?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

So yes, and no, I know those two, because those are the two that I thoroughly researched. But I would definitely start by I finance through Fed loan. So they have a really great page on their website that talks you through exactly what's going to be the best options for you. But I will just say so the standard repayment plan is the one that they calculate for you. And they say, "okay, you pay X amount, and then in 1020, whatever years, you're going to not have to pay anything else." So you have that standard repayment, but the standard repayment is typically, again, depending on your overall balance. If you're like me, and you have over 100,000, it's going to be significantly pretty high for that standard repayment. So not saying it's not doable, but you're just setting yourself up where you're going to really have to be very intentional about your spending, and have that strict budget so that you can afford that really high payment. The income-driven repayment plan is the one where they look at how much do you make, and you know, they calculate a percentage of that. And then that's what you have to pay. But if you do that, that typically extends your amount of time. So whereas the standard repayment plan, it was about 10 years until I paid everything off, I switched to income-driven repayment, and it doubled and it was about 20 years to pay it off. So just making sure that because at the end of the day, you still have that balance, and they want that full balance back. So it's basically just, you know, you can pay more, and then you are not gonna have to pay it for the longer period of time. Or you can pay less, but you're going to have to pay for a longer period of time.


Jayson Davies

Exactly, yep. Because there's going to be more interest. And so yeah, the standard is basically this is how much time you have to pay it off. This is how much you owe. And they just break it down month by month. And that's how much you owe every month. But yeah, with the income-driven, it gets a little more tricky to compute and make sense of how much you're actually going to be paying. I know those are the two main ones that I hear about as well, that people use. Next question, are you planning to use any type of loan forgiveness over the course of your time to pay off your loans?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

No. So that is definitely the other option that I hear about a lot. And it's the public service, loan forgiveness. And first of all, you have to just be eligible. And because of the company that I work for the agency, I work for early intervention, I am not eligible not to say that if you work in early intervention, you're not going to be eligible because I have had conversations with people who work in AI and they are able to apply for public service loan forgiveness. So you just want to understand all the parameters of you know, what types of companies what types of agencies you can work for to even be eligible, you do still have to pay something so even if you do the public service loan forgiveness, you're going to have a monthly payment. And I will say like I said I automatically just didn't qualify for this. But there are just a lot of stipulations and fine print when it comes to public service loan forgiveness that I don't think everyone has a ton of knowledge about and I definitely can say I started looking more into it because I had more questions about it. And I was like "Wow, you know, this isn't all that great that it's cracked up to be" there are so many fine print things. And you know, they say the devils in the details. And that's so true. And you know, the rate of people who apply for public service, loan forgiveness and actually are accepted, it's extremely low, like, I don't want to say an exact number, but it's very low. I mean, the last time I checked, it was like 1% 2%. So it's really low, the number of people that they're actually approving to even have the remainder of their student loan, forget, forgive, and are forgiven, and that's forgiven.


Jayson Davies

All right.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

The amount is supposed to be forgiven. So I would just say if that is what you're pursuing, really just like and study those details and make sure that you're going to be eligible that you're going to have that remainder actually forgiven.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, and I'll speak to my experience, to me, I looked at it as well. And I think what I came to the conclusion was that with my income-driven, because I did, because of my student loans, I took a higher paying job out, again, kind of like what you're talking about in a rural area, because I was going to get paid more. And I went out there. And because I was making quite a bit of money out there, my income-driven model wouldn't have lowered my payment very much. And so part of the stipulations that you're talking about that you have to meet is you have to pay your loan, using one of the payment options that are available for the PSLF Public Service Loan Forgiveness plan, you have to pay consistently for 10 years. And I believe if you maybe then have a missed payment in there, you can like lose that ability to get the PSLF. But when I did that, I found out that by the end of the 10 years, my loan would already be paid off anyway, so there'd be nothing left for them to pay off for me. And so that's part of the reason that I didn't pursue that one. But what I did pursue, and what I did actually get a little bit was taken off was the Federal Perkins loan, that I was able to, use, because I worked at a low-income School District. This always says it's for teachers, but if you're an occupational therapist, you can qualify for it. I know, because I found a website that says it, and then I did it. And over the course of five years, I think I had, it wasn't a whole lot. But I mean, in comparison, it's a lot of money like $10,000, in comparison to 120 $150,000. It's not a whole lot, but it still is a lot that was taken off. Because I worked in a school district and a low-income area for I think, was five years, you get a portion of that Perkins Loan taken off for every five years. And I'll be sure to put links into the notes to the PSLF and the Perkins loan forgiveness for anyone interested in finding those. All right. Well, you talked about budgeting a little bit. Tell me what do you use specific software for budgeting? Do you and your husband sit down once a week, once a month, what's your budgeting look like?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

I love the app, mint. MINT, is phenomenal. They have the app, but actually like the desktop version a lot. And that allows me to really have I mean, especially if you're a visual learner, it has some great visuals that can really help you track your spending, I do have it connected to my bank account. So they're automatically able to categorize my spending. And I think, you know, you never really realize how much you're spending, you know, those quick target trips or Walmart trips or no dollar store. And that stuff really starts to add up even your subscription services that you don't even think about. So I really like to use that it also shows you any other like they show you your checking account, your savings account, I have it connected to my fidelity account, or my Roth IRAS which is a retirement account. So I really like that it just lays out basically your entire financial portfolio right in front of you. It'll even show you your debt, it shows you individually all of your student loan debts. And then it also shows you like your assets if you have a house and it'll show you like your overall net worth. So I think it's a great tool to use to really visually track your spending and see where you can cut some costs. They also have a really cool feature where you can set up goals. So like I did one goal was to pay off one of my student loans, one of my student loans...


Jayson Davies

Payments.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Well, yeah, so one of my student loan payments. And so it broke it down to say how much I needed to pay per month to meet my goal of having that one paid off in six months. So I really, really liked the mint app.


Jayson Davies

Awesome. Yeah, I've been using mint since my college days. I don't know how I found it. But I remember being at USC finding this app, and I don't think I've ever said this on the podcast. When I was in college. I worked basically as an Uber driver before Uber existed. USC has its own student safety taxi program. And so I would drive around from six at night to two in the morning driving people to libraries, but more frequently from party to party. Yeah, but I don't somehow I came across a man and I have been using it since. I mean 2010. So Wow. Like I've been using it for about 11 years now. And I love it. I have everything inputted in as well, my cars, my house, all the loans that we have. My wife's income is also in there as well. All of her liabilities and assets are in there as well. And so we get a huge picture overall picture of our finances. It's fantastic. I recently came across a program called YNAB Have you ever heard of that? YNAB it's one that sounds familiar, Park Figueroa. Entrepreneur summit. Yeah, she is the one that led me to that one. And it's not too much. It's like 80 bucks a year or something like that. And it's really nice because your money goes into the to-be-budgeted pile. And then you just say, All right, I'm gonna budget $100 to this category this month, I'm gonna budget $100 to this category this month. And yeah, just some really great resources between men and white app, I would definitely recommend mint for sure. And if you want to go a little bit further, YNAB is also a good one. So how do you and your husband? Do you guys try and sit down and do it together? Are you guys both taking your own loans separately? Or what's that look like?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

So that's such it's such an interesting conversation to have about, like finances and marriage, and we're newlyweds, like, we just got married. And we'll celebrate our six-month anniversary this month. So we're still pretty new to everything. And so you know, opening like joint accounts and things like that. But what we're doing is everything. We're just combining everything. So we're we've combined both of our incomes, both of our student loan debts. And that's kind of the way that we're going to tackle it. And we are likely I think we talked about we're going to do that snowball,





Jayson Davies

or Robbins method, I think we're basically you pay off the smallest loan first. And then you take whatever you were paying on the smallest loan once that one's paid off, you apply all of that to your next smallest loan. That sounds about right?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes, yeah. That, yeah, yeah, that's the Dave Ramsey method. And the reason so the reason I, the reason I like that one is because I need small wins. So I need to have paid off, you know, a $4,000 one before I pay off a 40,000 one. Now my husband's a little bit opposite, and he likes to avalanche better, which is that one is the one where you pay off the one with the highest percentage, or with the highest interest rate first, which is typically your biggest loans. So you might be paying on just one for eight or nine months before you pay that one off versus paying a small one. And you haven't paid off after two or three months. So we're definitely still talking through all of the different options and things like that. But either way, what we've really sat down and done is how much are we going to make per month? And how much of that is going to need to go towards our loans, how much of that is going to go towards our living expenses and kind of dividing it up that way? So I like that way, too. It's just looking at it per month. So what do you need to make per month? What do I need to make per month? And where is everything?


Jayson Davies

You know, I struggled back and forth. I paid off my loans in about eight years. And I'll go into more detail on that, I think on a separate podcast now, because we're just talking about so much right now. But I went back and forth so much on which loan Should I apply that extra money to? And ideally, I always wanted to go for the highest interest loan because that one's the one that's going to cost more over time. But just like you're saying to the snowball math is like yeah, you want to get that one that like you only have $3,000 left on it. But it's only like, it's your lowest percent loan and you're like, well, should I give it to the 7% that's still $9,000 or just wipe out that 3% or, and I'll do I'll give one thing right now about what I did to help pay off my loans is actually I got in a car accident. So I had bought a Honda Accord. I don't know it was kind of my "Hey, I got out of OT school. I need something I need a new car. I earned it right. I graduated." So I went out I bought a new car. About three years later, I got in an accident, some guy decided he wanted to be in my lane on the freeway and took me out totaled the car. Well, the insurance payout was going to be about 14,000 I think after the car was paid off, I was gonna get about 14,000. So what I did was I took that 14,000 and instead of buying a new car with $14,000, I actually took that money and I put it directly into my highest interest student loan. And so that was $14,000 gone of a seven and a half percent loan. And then what I did, I still needed a car. And so I went and put a very very low downpayment on the new car, but, or used car actually used not a new car for me, but it was used. And but that loan was only 2% for the car. And so I took $14,000 basically put it into a 7% loan and replaced that with a 2% loan, kind of a little refinances in a non-typical way. But yeah, so I turned I basically wiped out, I think one or two loans with that 14, and then we got one loan at a 2% rate. So a little tidbit that I have that could help with wiping out some student loans. Hopefully, none of you get in an accident. And if you do get into an accident, you are perfectly fine. And okay, and have the ability to do that. But don't go getting in an accident just so you can pay off a student loan.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Good advice.


Jayson Davies

All right. All right. I think I got a little off track there. But I had a question earlier. And we were on a roll. So I didn't ask if has had these student loans affected any business decisions that you have made? Obviously, you have two jobs now one is more of a job. And the other is kind of a side hustle gig, it's your own thing? How have your student loans impacted your decisions when it comes to business?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

That is such a good question. So I will say you have to consider your startup costs when you are starting a business. And fortunately, mine was very low. Basically and I actually didn't even have to pay to get my LLC set up. Because the company that I used to contract through they have like a whole legal department. And they actually just sent me over the paperwork had me look everything we had had me look over everything. And we had a couple of calls. And that was it. So it actually wasn't a fee for me to set up my LLC. But depending on where you are, your LLC might be, you know, more or less expensive. So I think that would be the first thing to consider when you're kind of pursuing entrepreneurship and everything like that. So I would say that's really the only type of startup cost I had. And it wasn't even really a cost. But it's just the one to consider. You know, when it comes to student loans, you just want to keep all of your expenses as low as possible in every facet of your life, so that you have more to allocate towards your student loans. So from there, I would say the way it's impacted me is I've just been forced to learn about certain things related to business. So I recently filed my taxes. And I'm very excited about it. Because I figured out how to write off business expenses and how to do deductions and things like those things that I might not have ever really considered, I would have been like, Oh, well, I just have to pay a couple $1,000. And that'll be that. But I was like, you know, let me sit down because that couple $1,000 that I might have to owe, I could actually get that back instead, and use that to put towards my loans. So I think it just gave me that extra push to sit down and really figure out what I'm doing when it comes to having a business and having a business and using that to my advantage. You know, it doesn't matter if you make $100,000 a year, if 30,000 of it is going to go towards taxes, the key really is figuring out how to save as much of that and how to, you know, keep as much of what you make in your pocket without going to taxes. So you know, just in, that's probably another conversation we could get into but just knowing about like deductions and expenses that you can write off. And so I figured out, I could write off a percentage of my car leaves and my apartment for my home office, I can write off, you know, my canvas subscriptions because all of these things have to do with the independent contracting job that I do. And so just knowing that that is an option. And knowing that the whole point of that is so you don't owe a lot of money in taxes. In fact, you can get some money back, and then you can put that money towards your student loans.


Jayson Davies

Absolutely. Well, I can't speak right now. Absolutely, you are correct. And I personally have been using someone for help with taxes for the last few years, partially because of OT School House, and it being a business. And sometimes you pay a few $100 for taxes, and they are able to find you more than when you pay them for. And you do get that money back as opposed to having to pay so yeah if you own a business definitely worth doing it. I know it's a little bit more tricky. If you don't own a business, doing taxes tends to be a little bit more simple, a little bit more fixed. It's hard to write things off if you don't own a business. But interest on your student loans is absolutely a write-off. Unless you make a certain amount I found. If you make too much, then they don't let you write off your student loans. Don't quote me on that. But that's what basically someone told me when I was trying to do taxes.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yeah, because you get that forum at the end of the year that tells you how much you've paid in interest and then you can use that. But like I think I also wrote off things like my tie. So I go to church and I tithe 10% of my income so you're able to write that off. And then I think my biggest thing I would say to you like content creators on Instagram. If you are starting to make money from that you can absolutely have that as your business and In anything that you do related to your content creation, or you know, being an influencer or things like that, you can also write off those expenses. And so I think that you know, when you have debt, you're forced to get very creative and things that I normally would have been like, I'm just gonna go to H&R block. And then I'm like, No, I'm gonna sit down and learn and figure this out because I have a lot of debt. And I need to find money to put towards the debt. So I think if anything, having debt just makes you really creative and really eager to learn about finances.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right. What about in your, obviously, personal life? You've talked a little bit about how you got married, and you guys decided to tackle things together? But did when you check when it came to getting a job out of college? Did you make your decision based upon how much you'd be willing to accept as a new grad, based upon the debt that you had?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Oh, absolutely. So 80,000, right, that's the number that most of us here, at least, that's what we heard in our OT program is what you can expect, you know, starting out, and that's what if you like Google, the median for OT salaries, roughly around 80,000 comes out. So that's the number that I've always had in my head. So I was like, you know, whatever my first job is, it needs to be at least $80,000. So I will say I was very fortunate that we ended up moving to Arizona, I didn't know this at the time, but Arizona is one of the highest paying states for OT, and the median there is some somewhere in there like mid 90,000 a year. So I already have that advantage going to a state that's going to be higher, we also have higher reimbursement rates for the early intervention program. So this is not the same everywhere. So I know, you know, in Massachusetts, for example, there be may, reimbursement rates are not as high for providers, meaning that providers don't make as much. So early intervention salary drastically differs depending on where you are. So if you're in like, Massachusetts, I've heard of as low as 40 to 50,000 a year. Whereas in Arizona, you know, some of our bases are like 85000...95000. So it's, it's really amazing, you know, that I ended up being in a place that I was able to accept something that I was very, very comfortable with, we also have a lot of just earning potential and the company that I'm with, so like I mentioned, I would drive about two and a half hours out to a very rural community that didn't have a lot of services. And I would provide OT out there for about four to five days Max, and I would earn an additional $30 an hour on top of my hourly rate for providing services. So that alone, I don't even I can't even think about like the overall per year amount that was but by doing that, it raised my overall salary. Pretty, pretty high. So I think you know, just knowing what the different options are out there when you're looking to accept a job. But yeah, I definitely have that 80,000 number in my head. And like I said, I had to do that because I have so much debt. So I needed to make at least that so that I would feel comfortable, be able to pay that back. And now, you know, I'm very thankful to between the W-2 job and my independent contracting job to be making like well over that. And so I'm like I said, I'm at a very comfortable place with my income. The problem is, the debt is still there. And so you know, but But yeah, so that's the number that I had in my head. And that's it. I didn't want to accept anything lower than that.


Jayson Davies

Yeah. And you know, I want to bring this up, because this whole conversation that we're having today came as a result of me sending out an email to my following and saying, Hey, I heard that there are some OTs out there that have to work two jobs just to get by. And I think for, for you what I'm hearing you're comfortable, you could probably be okay with that one job that you have. You're doing your other job, I think more it's, it's something that you personally really enjoy. And you see the long-term benefits of it. But you could probably survive off that that one W-2 job that you have. Does that sound about right? If you really had to?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Correct Yeah,


Jayson Davies

Okay.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

I wouldn't be able to get my monthly facials from a doctor.


Jayson Davies

But I am hearing now that in other parts of the country, there is some oversaturation potentially of the OT market. And then OTs are getting paid really low. And you've kind of just talked about how it does come it does depend on what state you're in what the reimbursement rates are, especially for EI I think it also depends on the size for this audience, the size of the district, if the districts in a more rural area if they're in a high paying area or not high paying area, more of an urban area, but also again, someone brought up to me is how many schools OT schools there are in that area, and people are starting to actually bring up the idea that maybe there's some oversaturation in the OT market. Have you seen or heard or experienced any of that?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

I definitely think it goes back to where you are. So, in early intervention in Phoenix where I am, there wasn't an oversaturation. In fact, there was a shortage. And so actually use that to my advantage, because I was like, Hey, you guys need me. So I can use that as leverage, you know, to negotiate. So I think just, you know, being aware of that fact too, but in some areas, like acute care is, was pretty saturated. So there weren't a lot of jobs. And I think that, from what I know, from who I've talked to, I think that's kind of across the board, acute care, and like outpatient pediatrics, a lot of times they have a lot of applicants. So it's a little bit harder to negotiate, it's a little bit harder for them to offer a higher salary because they have someone, you know, if you don't want to accept 6000 a year, someone else behind you will. And so I think just being aware of some of those different settings, home health, in general, is not as saturated, and there's usually a pretty high demand for it. So you can usually negotiate more. and home health is also known to have pretty high salaries across the board, whether it's PT OT, you know, whatever, you're in therapy, they have pretty higher salaries. So I think just being aware of what setting you're looking into and knowing, you know, for whatever region, you're going to be in how, how open are those jobs? because that'll kind of give you a good idea of if they're going to be paying you more or less.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, and I completely agree. In Southern California, it doesn't seem like there's an oversaturation, there's still plenty of jobs out there. Every time I check, there's always an OT job available. And, yeah, there's a lot of applicants, but I think most of those applicants have jobs but are looking to upgrade their job. With that said, I am hearing a lot about even more OT programs opening up in Southern California. And we already have quite a few OT programs here. And I'm sure that's going on everywhere. Because OT keeps getting nodded as the top 10 jobs or whatever it might be by US News. And people are learning more about OT they're seeing how great it is. But I think that some new grads are kind of coming out of school is like wait, like what you said, I'm hearing $80,000. And what do you mean, I'm only making 60? that's a big difference. If you're expecting 80 and you're getting 60. That's a pretty significant, well-upset feeling that you get. So I don't know I'm seeing it right now. I don't see the oversaturation here, but I'm hearing about it in other parts of the country. And I am seeing more and more OT programs continue to open up. And they continue to fill up once they open up. And I know actually from my sister, who's a fieldwork coordinator that is getting very hard to find placements for field works for OTs, OT, and OTs. So if you are an OT, if you can take a student on please do. But yeah, it's I think it's going to be an issue in the near future because there are just so many programs opening up.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Well, and not only that, but the programs, they're pricey. And their tuition continues to go up every year, whereas our median salary is not really going up. So I think that's something else to just consider is and like, you know, some programs are now starting to switch over to that entry-level OTD, or new OTD programs are popping up. And it's like, of course, that's another conversation. But is that really necessary to have this many OTD programs? So I love the post-professional OTD option, I think that's great. But you know, these entry-level ones that have these huge sticker tags, and then new graduates come out and be like, Oh, I haven't OTD I'll be able to make more and you know, I'll be the first place for a job. And it's like, no, I wish I could say yes, but No, that wasn't the case. I haven't OTD. And I can say that absolutely was not the case for me.


Jayson Davies

Yeah, someone reached out to me the other day and was asking kind of, if I have my OTD, will I be overqualified at all? No, you won't be overqualified, you won't get paid more because of your OTD. But you won't be overqualified most of the people and I am kind of talking specifically to school-based positions right now. The people that are hiring you, won't take a second look at your OTD they won't think it means that you're a better OT. I don't know, maybe someone might have a personal bias, but any OT that's looking at it isn't going to potentially think you're a better OT. In public schools, they set a price before you're hired. They have a price that you can make. And whether you have a Master's or bachelor's because you graduated back in the 90s. Or you have your OTD you're going to make the same. Very few districts have a stipend that you might get for a doctorate, but it might be 1500 to $2,000 a year. So nothing major. So yeah, just want to throw that out there, I guess. All right. I have one more question. I want to go back. We're gonna wrap up, go back to talking about loans, what would be the recommendation you have right now, for a new occupational therapist out of school, maybe they're a year, maybe they're two years out, three years even. And they have a huge statement bill in front of them with their student loans, what would be your recommendation.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

So, there's not a ton of different options here, right, you need to decrease your spending and your expenses, and you need to increase your income or find multiple streams of income. So I think, you know, those are definitely the two areas that I'm focusing on right now is making sure that I keep my expenses as low as possible. And for example, I joked about wanting to get facials every month, that is something I really enjoy. But because I do that, I try and say, Okay, I can pick up an evaluation on a Saturday or Sunday, because that's something that I want to do. So just making sure that you have ways to increase your income. Part of that also goes into, like the importance of negotiating your first job and, you know, setting the bar for yourself at a place that you're comfortable with. And that way, you know, as you continue to progress in your career, you make sure that you're making, you know, more and more and more. And so negotiating even as a new graduate is a huge topic, something that I am very passionate about, because I was able to negotiate, I actually asked for $10 more an hour, but I ended up getting $5 more an hour, but that was perfect. That's exactly what I wanted, actually. So you know, you want to overshoot it. And like I said, I knew that they needed me, you know, just recognizing your worth, as a new graduate, they need you, you're more than qualified, you're ready to jump in there, you have this fresh perspective, and you're excited. And so just using all of that to your advantage. And then you know, not being afraid to negotiate things like benefits and you know, getting higher benefit packages and things like that. So you can negotiate even more than just your salary. But just, you know, focusing in on that, and even just asking for $10 more an hour so that you can get $5 more an hour, that's going to really help you in the long run. So I would say those two areas, really just decreasing your expenses and making sure that you have a way to have higher income or making multiple streams of income.


Jayson Davies

All right. I know I said that was the last question. But you got me thinking, when did you ask for that increase of the $10.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

So, my negotiation story is so wild. I actually did it after I accepted their initial offer. And the reason is, I ended up getting another offer. But it went to my spam folder and my email, and that one was a higher salary. And I was like, no. So I reached back out and ask, you know, I know this is really unorthodox. And people probably don't do this. And I was like, but I realized that I had another offer. And so I just wanted to come back and discuss it. And they did. They said, you know, this is highly unusual that we reopen the conversation to negotiation, they were like you were you know, an awesome candidate, we would love to have you. And so yes, let's go ahead. And so, in general, I wouldn't recommend that. But I still did it. And I was like, you know, should I do it? Should I not? And I was like, it doesn't hurt to ask the least they can. The worst they can have said is no, you already accepted it, we're not going to go back. But I would say in general, you know, doing it after you get that initial offer, then opening the door to negotiations, if they try to like just call you on the spot or offer you it on the spot, which did happen during one of the interviews I was on. I was like, you know, thank you so much for the opportunity. I'm really excited. I would love it if you would just send me the written contract so that I'm able to look over it. So you don't have to answer right at the moment, even if they call you or ask you in person because you want a chance to do this, gather your thoughts. Negotiating can be really scary. So just allowing yourself time to look through that contract, look to see what you want to negotiate. But just doing it after you get that initial offer written down.


Jayson Davies

Definitely agree. In fact, another thing that my dad always taught me was to sleep on it. And I actually use that as an excuse. I'll say it I use it as an excuse. If someone even when I go to buy a car, and they offer me a deal. Sometimes I'll say I'm sorry, you know, I this looks great on paper, but I need to sleep on it. So I will call you in the morning. Or when it comes to a job, the same thing, just see it. But take it in, don't respond right away. It can be nice when you see a number on paper, especially as a new grad for the first time. Maybe it's right at that $80,000 mark, and it looks great. But think about it. Have you applied to other places? Are you waiting to hear back from another interview and what they might offer? So definitely take the time to kind of digest it, compare it, maybe talk to a few OT friends that you know, have recently got jobs and they've been through that process. Talk to them a little bit and just think it over a little bit. So yeah. Yes, thank you. Would you like to share any last words of wisdom and also add in where people can learn more about you?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Yes. So I know that having massive student loan debt and I'm talking to those of us who have you know over $100,000 of student loan debt It can feel so overwhelming, it can feel, you know, just like you're never going to climb out of it. But I really just want to encourage you, I just want to encourage you, I just want to tell you that you can do it, take it piece by piece, you know, you don't have to be making two $3,000 payments every month. And that's what I thought I needed to do. And I was like, you know, what, if all I can do is $200 a month, extra this month, that's okay. Take it piece by piece, chunk by chunk, you will get through it. And don't let it stress you out. And also, you know, if you have this, you know, I mentioned having a strict budget, yes, have a strict budget, but also build in some time for you build on that time to go get a manicure or go treat yourself to dinner once in a while, you know, it's really important to do these things for ourselves. Even if you are in debt, you can still enjoy your life, you know, just be very smart about it.


Jayson Davies

Absolutely. Sorry, one more, any books or websites that you recommend to learn more about personal finance?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Oh, yes, I have so many. So I love the Clever Girls Know Finance Podcast, they are amazing. They also have a ton of free courses. It's just clevergirlsknow.com. And they have you know, free courses about budgeting personal finance, investing is another huge one, I just want to put a plug in here you can still invest even if you're in debt. That's something I'm more I know, he didn't even get into it. But I have recently started investing. And so you know, it might make your student loan repayment time a little bit longer. But it's so important to invest right now. Because time is truly money. So they talk a lot about investing, investing while you're in debt. So I love that one. And there are so many days and maybe I'll just send you over a list of my favorite resources to put in the show notes.


Jayson Davies

Sounds good. I will I got plenty of notes here that I've got to add in from meant to why now, which is you need a budget to fed loans, repayment plans, Ramsey snowball versus avalanche payments, they're all going to be there. So be sure to check out the show notes. And we'll have plenty of information regarding student loans, and budgeting, and all the good stuff that we've been talking about today, "good stuff". All right, Amirra, and one last time, make sure that you shout out yourself. Where can people find more about you?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Oh, yes, my Instagram is at marvelousmiracles.ot. And I also have a website, www.marvellousmiracles.com. And over there. I actually have a blog where I talk a little bit about finances sometimes too. I definitely talk about finances on my Instagram. And I am planning to talk even more about finances in a couple of different ways. So definitely stay tuned for that.


Jayson Davies

Sounds good. And one. You didn't mention it. But I know you're part of it. The podcast?


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Oh yes, I kinda forget. So I have a podcast and another business with two of my OT besties. Sarah Pyatt and Danielle de Lorenzo. And we are called "The Real OTs of Early Intervention". And we have a website, we are planning to start offering more mentorship and coaching. We have a podcast where we have really small tidbits of information related to early intervention. And they're meant for you to be able to listen to you like in the car. So there are only about you know, 15 to 20 minutes of bite-sized chunks of information. So if you have any interest at all in early intervention, definitely follow along with us. Our website is therealots.com and then our Instagram is therealotsofei.


Jayson Davies

Absolutely, you cannot go wrong with Amirra, Danielle, and Sarah, they are the best minds in early intervention, be sure to check them all out. They all have their own individual Instagrams and programs going on that are all amazing. But together, it just makes for a fun podcast that you learn a lot from so be sure to check that out. All right, Amirra. It has been so nice having you on thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to spend with us and sharing all of your knowledge. Really appreciate it.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

Thank you so much for having me.


Jayson Davies

Definitely Take care and have a great rest of your day.


Amirra Condelee, OTR/L

You too.


Jayson Davies

Bye. Alright, everyone, thank you so much for joining me and Amirra on this episode of the OT schoolhouse podcast really appreciate you being here. I'm sure that you learned one too if not many more things that are sure to help you out as an occupational therapist trying to either pay back some student loans or be maybe negotiate a little bit more for that higher paying job. Be sure to check Amirra out at marvelousmiraclesOT and see all this she's got going on over there. All right. Take care and until next time, peace out.


Amazing Narrator

Thank you for listening to the OT School House podcast. For more ways to help you and your students succeed right now. Head on over to otschoolhouse.com until next time, class is dismissed.




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Have any questions or comments about the podcast? Email Jayson at Jayson@otschoolhouse.com

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