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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 80 of the OT School House Podcast.
We are kicking off the 2021-22 school year with the perfect topic - Ergonomics.
For the better part of 18 months, many of us have been working from home and students have been learning from their couches, beds, & Kitchen table. If you are lucky, you have had a desk in your home to work from.
Now, Most of us are heading back into the school buildings and that is going to be a big change on our bodies. So today I am bringing on School-Based OT and Ergonomic Specialist, Kirsten Beshay, to talk a little bit about how ergonomics has and will continue to impact us, the teachers in our schools, and the kids we serve.
In this episode, we dive into both her experiences as an ergonomic specialist in the private sector as well as her experiences in the schools.
Links to Show References:
https://www.aota.org/Conference-Events/Backpack-Safety-Awareness-Day/Handouts.aspx
REBA assessment
RULA assessment
Article References:
Jacobs, K. (Ed.). (2008) Ergonomics for therapists. Mosby Elsevier.
American Occupational Therapy Association. (2020). 2019 workforce & salary survey.
Fisher, T. (2019). Occupational therapy’s work and industry area of practice: Content in entry-level professional occupational therapy curricula: A survey. The Open Journal of Occupational Therapy, 7(4), 1-10.
Guirado, Terry, Chambonnière, Camille, Chaput, Jean-Philippe, Metz, Lore, Thivel, David, & Duclos, Martine. (2021). Effects of classroom active desks on children and adolescents' physical activity, sedentary behavior, academic achievements and overall health: A systematic review. International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, 18(6), 2828. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijerph18062828
Sarafian, A. (2019). Educational participation for children 5-21 years. Systematic review of related literature from 2010 to 2017 [Critically Appraised Topic]. Bethesda, MD: American Occupational Therapy Association.
United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. (2021a). Detailed event or exposure by selected natures [Data file]. Retrieved from https://www.bls.gov/iif/soii-data.htm
United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. (2021b). Employment status of the civilian noninstitutional population, 1950 to date [Data file]. Retrieved from https://www.bls.gov/cps/tables.htm#annual
Wong, C. W., Tsai, A., Jonas, J. B., Ohno-Matsui, K., Chen, J., Ang, M., & Ting, D. S. W. (2020). Digital screen time during COVID-19 pandemic: Risk for a further myopia boom? American Journal of Ophthalmology, 2020-07. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ajo.2020.07.034
Episode Transcript
Download or read a rough edit of this OT School House Podcast episode
Amazing Narrator
Hello, and welcome to the OT School House podcast, your source for school-based occupational therapy tips, interviews, and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here's your host, Jayson Davies. Class is officially in session.
Jayson Davies
Hey there, welcome back for what I'm calling is the first episode of the 2021-2022 school year of the OT School House podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Jayson Davies, and I am an occupational therapist down in Southern California. But I'm happy to be with you, wherever you are in the world listening today really appreciate you being here. Today, I wanted to have a podcast that really embodied the return to schools. Because right now, you know, some of you got back to school to the physical building at the end of the last school year or some part of last school year. For others of us, we're just going back in person this year. And so I really wanted something that would embody that. You know this is a start to a school year, like none other, there is just so much. I don't want to use the word controversy. But really, there is controversy about everything that's going on right now. And so we're gonna set that controversy aside, and we're going to talk about ergonomics today. And why I think ergonomics is the perfect topic for today is because like I said, we have people who have been learning from their couches, learning from their beds, learning from their home offices, whether you are an adult like you and I probably, or a kid, they've been learning from their bed, you've been maybe working from your bed or couch. And now we're all having to go back into work potentially. And that is going to be a big change in our own bodies. And so today I am bringing on Kirsten Beshay. She is a Doctor of occupational therapy. She studied at the University of Southern California, my own alma mater fight on football season is coming up for all you Trojans out there, and everyone else who's interested in football. And then she ended up getting her OTD at Boston University. And we'll actually talk a little bit about that, as we get started with this interview. She is an ergonomics specialist. And you know, she's actually pretty new to school-based OT. And so she's going to talk to us about ergonomics in school-based OT as well as ergonomics outside of school-based OT for any of you who have ever had an interest and what that might look like. So kick back, relax, put that phone away if you haven't already. And please enjoy this interview with Kirsten Beshay. Hey, Kirsten, welcome to the OT School House podcast. How are you doing today?
Kirsten Beshay
Hey, Jayson. I'm so happy to be here. I'm doing great.
Jayson Davies
Awesome. And you know what, I have to start with this because you just said you're going on a trip. And by the time people hear this, you will probably already be back. But tell us where are you going?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, I'm going to Egypt tomorrow. My husband was actually born and raised in Cairo. So we are going to see family.
Jayson Davies
Oh, wow. So it's not just for I mean, just have fun. I mean, it is to have fun, obviously. But it's also to see some family huh?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, yeah, I've done the pyramids before. I've been on the camel. So I think this one will be a pretty low-key family... family visit.
Jayson Davies
Not too much sightseeing. Just kind of taking easy eating some good food, I'm sure. Company...
Kirsten Beshay
Always about the food for me for sure. So yeah, I think that part will absolutely be a big piece of it.
Jayson Davies
That's awesome. Oh, man. I've never been to Egypt never been to. I mean, I've been to Europe. But that's about I've only been to Europe and Peru as far as outside of the country. Unless you count the Virgin Islands, but whatever. But yeah, that'll be a fun demo now to Egypt. And sounds like you've been there before. So that's gonna be one...
Kirsten Beshay
Once before. Yeah, I'm still relatively a newbie. But you know, I have a family of experts. I get the insider scoop.
Jayson Davies
There you go. That's always nice. Right doing some of the local stuff as opposed to some of the tourists. So very cool. Well, we are actually here to talk a lot about ergonomics today, you have done ergonomics, both in the schools, as well as outside of the schools. And we're going to talk all about that. But first, I want to give you an opportunity to share a little bit about yourself and your background as far as occupational therapy.
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah. So um, this is always kind of a fun question how people got into it. I graduated with my bachelor's degree in psychology and music. And I was initially thinking about studying cognitive psychology, maybe tried to get into a Ph. D program I applied to those, but it just kind of didn't work out. And so I graduated with my bachelor's degree and was like, Well, I don't have a plan now. Am I gonna do and my dad actually mentioned he'd read in US News and World Report that OT was like this up and coming great future job and I was like, Okay, dad, but I ended up shadowing, you know, all sorts of different OT settings to get a sense Because I read the description, and I had no idea what OT was. And then I shadowed and I still really didn't know what OT was because it was so varied. But I said, I think I could do any of these, these look fun. And so I'm in right now. That's kind of what drew me and it's so fun. I just love that we can like do different things on different days of the week that are so different but are still so tied together with our skillset. So I love it.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. Man, I love the whole psychology behind when your parents tell you about something. It's like, nothing is ever good. When your parents tell you like your parents could tell you you won the lottery. And you're like, no, that's not I don't want the money. But that's funny. Well, I'm glad you ended up finding occupational therapy. And if I remember right, you are actually relatively new to school-based OT. Right? So how long have you been in OT? How long have you been in the schools? And yeah, we'll start there.
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, so I have been an OT for six years now. I just finished my first school year as a school-based OT, and your podcast, I've gone through dozens and dozens of episodes, in this past year learning and growing, and it's been great. So thank you. Um, I also, of course, have been partly seeing kids with teletherapy for most of that time, you know, so I know everybody's a little different regionally, but most of my year has been spent doing that. So coming back for a year or two, and the in-person is, you know, I've done some, but it's gonna be another learning curve. So I guess that's just how it is for everybody right now. Anyway. Uh, yeah,
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And you know, if you've made it through the last 18 months of the school-based OT, I don't think it can get much more difficult than that. I mean, was teletherapy was tough. I don't know for you. But for me, it was tough.
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, absolutely. I think in some ways, it was a lower bar for me because everyone was figuring it out. So people were very, I mean, I have a very supportive team. But I felt especially supportive because everyone kind of felt like we're starting from scratch. So it was Yeah, I learned a lot. I think that it was an interesting time to have witnessed, you know, to see everybody kind of figuring this out and banding together. So I'm glad I was I wouldn't say it was easy, but I think that I was a part of it in some ways.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And in me, I mean, it doesn't matter. You could have been an occupational therapist in the schools for 20 years before last year, you were still struggling last year. So it doesn't matter where you were, the whole playing field just got leveled, like everyone was, unless you were already practicing in teletherapy online, you basically had to figure it out. So we were all transitioning right there with you. So you mentioned listening to the OT School House podcasts? What else helped make that school year a little bit easier? Did you have any other resources that were some go-to resources or any mentors?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, um, you know, I've been thinking about, I know, we'll get into my background and what else I've done a little bit, but I've been thinking about making the switch to school-based OT for a while. And I was really holding out to find like a supportive, like team lead or manager or, you know, a team that was going to be really supportive, because I was just going to have a lot of learning to do. So. It took me a little while to find it. But I think like my shout-out to Laura, OT lead, she has been super supportive. So I would definitely call her my mentor. I also have multiple friends that I graduated from USC with back in 2015, who have been very helpful and just, you know, a phone call away when I have questions. And then just digging through, you know, I mentioned the podcast, I bought the e-book of the AOTA school-based practice, textbook and went through a lot of that, and I gotta say, the Facebook groups for some of these pediatric school-based OT communities have just been absolutely wonderful. You know, like, any questions under the sun are probably all in there. And if not, I probably asked them, and it's just an amazing community. So all of those have been a huge help.
Jayson Davies
100% Shout out to Laura, shout out to the 2015 USC grads. Whoo, you're doing great. I was a few years before that, but good job. And of course, all the Facebook groups. Yes. Very helpful. I love the Facebook groups. You know I wanted to start one for myself. But then I was like, why there are so many good ones out there already for pediatric in school-based OT And so yeah, I go on there to ask questions, answer questions. I'm there too. Alright, so let's jump into school-based OT and ergonomics. First, we'll start with ergonomics. How did you end up actually kind of getting into economics? You know, we talked about this a little bit in schools, like when we're in OT school, but how did you just kind of end up going full throttle into economics?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, you know, it was always something that I've been a little interested in when I was doing my I guess gap year after my bachelor's degree when I was taking anatomy at night, you know, getting my prerequisites for OT school, doing my shadowing. I was also attempting at a small kind of tech company in the bay area, which is where I live in Northern California. And the HR team there was always kind of very puzzled by what to do if someone had an injury and like, what, what keyboard should they get? Like, should they order a footrest, they just kind of like didn't really know where to go. And I think it was such a small company that it was just a question mark, no one really had a process set up for like how to find this stuff out. So I remember kind of thinking, I think that might be something that I might be able to figure out once I go to OT school. So it was like, kind of in the back of my mind. And then I took an elective in ergonomics at USC, which was really fun, and just kind of gave me a lot more of that information. We had a couple of guest lectures of OTs who were doing ergonomic consulting, so it just kind of planted the seeds. And yeah, I just think the whole time I got exposed to it. I just loved how preventative it was, you know, how you can spend like 20-30 minutes with someone one time and just make a world of difference. And you know, preventing an injury, hopefully, and you can be super creative. You know, a lot of times they're really low budgets for ergonomic services. And so you're not going to go out and get someone that $1,000 deaths, you got to kind of work with, you know, a stack of books and all those, you know, duct tapes and crazy stuff. Um, and it's, it's pretty unique. So that's kind of fun, too, is you know, not many people know that. Well, I shouldn't say many, but it's definitely a unique practice area for OTs. And I think it's a pretty well-kept great secret because it's a pretty low stress. The hours are very good. You know, I used to work in the hospitals too. And so I feel like there were some aspects, I was like, Oh, I feel like I can breathe a little easier in this type of mission.
Jayson Davies
That's funny that you mentioned the low-key ergonomics ways to fix things because I'm not gonna lie. Yesterday, I was on costco.com and Amazon and looking for one of them, the adjustable standup desks. And I got to the point where I'm even like measuring my office, I'm like, Alright, do I want the 48 inches, so 55, which is like ordering a DV. But then I'm like, I have to get rid of my other desk, which I already like. And then you get into the rabbit hole. It's like, Oh, well, you have the ones that can go on your desk and rise up. And then all yanking, I'm like, dude, I have OT textbooks on my desk that are raising up my monitors. For my kids back when phone books actually existed, you know, I tape up phone books with duct tape and put that under their feet, turn the trashcan on its side so they can put their feet on the trash can try and I mean anything right to kind of try and get them in a position where it's easier for them. So you're right. It's a little bit different than typical traditional per se, occupational therapy. But I can see how it could be a good, a good changeup.
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, absolutely.
Jayson Davies
All right. Before we get too far, though, I do want to give you the opportunity, actually, just to make sure we're on the same page to kind of defined ergonomics, what it is. And sometimes the easiest way to answer this is just like, what is someone who has no idea what ergonomics is, and they ask you, what do you do? How do you explain that?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, I mean, you know, we're all used to that. Right? OT or is like, How do I explain this, but we're gonna have, it's kind of the same. I like there's a quote by Pheasant and Hargrave that I really like that says ergonomics is the science of work of the people who do it and the ways it is done, the tools and equipment they use, the places they work in, and the psychosocial aspects of the working situation. So I mean, obviously a very broad definition. But basically, we're looking at work in, of course, we'll get into this, but that might be you know, children's work might be getting an education. So it doesn't have to be an office setting. But someone doing work and looking at the social aspect, the physical aspect, the mental aspect, and kind of approaching the environment, approaching the person in the occupation, and tackling all of those to ensure that people are healthy, and we're promoting well being. So if that's still a little broad, you can really spend a lot of time doing office ergonomics where you might go into someone's desk, like what you're mentioning, you know, a home office, we're seeing a lot of those and suggest equipment, if it's not fitting them well, in a school, we'll dive into this, but you might look at furniture fit for your students. If someone's working in a factory, you know, standing at a conveyor belt, you might suggest task variation for them. Someone's in a wet lab, you know, you might suggest more automated pipetting equipment, so lots of different things, but the world is your oyster in terms of how you specifically approach that.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and you're right that that definition of ergonomics was very, very broad. And one of the key terms or two key terms that you used in that definition was physical, which I think makes sense. We're all used to adapting to the physical environment when it comes to ergonomics. But you also use the term social adaptions, which I don't think of typically when I think of ergonomics. I don't know if you can elaborate on that a little bit more. Have you even really touched upon the social aspect?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, I think it's kind of that mental health piece is a bit too in my mind. So if I'm evaluating someone say, you know, in an office setting, and they are extremely stressed, you know, am I going to completely like, take that out of it and just look at the physical piece and say, Oh, your desk is too high, you know, obviously as OTs were, like, absolutely going to look at that, and I'm probably not going to provide mental health services for the long term. But it's, you know, there are recommendations, if I know, the company's HR department might, you know, have some resources and employee assistance program, you know, I might kind of put that in the kind of write up or depends on the situation. But you know, that or, you know, just co-worker interactions can also if you're sitting in an open office space, and the coworker next to you clips, their toenails in the middle of the day, and that really bother you. Maybe having a slightly further desk space will actually be conducive to your well-being at work. So just some random examples, but it really can look like a lot of different things.
Jayson Davies
No, that is a great example, then I hadn't thought of that. Because you're right, you can't. You mentioned the PEO model person, environment occupation. And, you know, I love that model. And that's absolutely true. What you're saying though because even though you might give someone a new chair or a new desk, that doesn't mean it's gonna fix the problem. If you don't address maybe some of the other issues. Like what you use the example use high stress Well, I mean, sitting or standing, if you have high stress, that's still going to impact your body one way or the other. So very important, at least consider it.
Kirsten Beshay
And I have to add, you'd mentioned like the sit-stand desk, which, you know, I like those, but I do find a lot of times people get that, and then they never stand. So there's the behavior aspect, within like, the individual person is like, you know, you'd like to have this but are you actually like, can we work on like a, like a timer, or reminder or some app that will help you remember what motivates you to stay on? So you know, all of those things that we as OTs are looking at with our clients are exactly the same in ergonomics.
Jayson Davies
That's funny. Yeah. But that's totally true. I mean, all the even the apps that we use on our phone to remind us about things, I mean, all of those once upon a time, were really accommodations, and now their everyday life to remind us to mean, something simple as brushing your teeth in the morning, just a reminder to brush your teeth or reminder to drink water. I mean, how many of us have a reminder every three hours to drink a glass of water? I mean, things that were accommodations, at some point are now just everyday life. And so teaching people how to use even something like their cell phone, which they have on them 24/7. That's one way you can do it.
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, cool.
Jayson Davies
So, ergonomics, you've been an OT for about six years, but you've only been in those schools for about one year. What were you doing during those five years related to ergonomics?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, so I mentioned I had a brief stint working as an inpatient in a hospital. But most of my time for the past five years was spent as an ergonomic consultant for a tech company. So I was a contractor. But I have pretty integrated with the like ergonomics department actually, within environmental health and safety, which is a pretty common way that an ergonomics team or an ergonomic consultant might be integrated. Because you know, there is a safety, health and safety aspect to that. I'm currently also like per diem as an Ergo consultant. But during the bulk of my time, in those five years, I did a lot of office assessments. But I also did some lab assessments, both dry lab, which is more like electronics, and then wet lab, like, you know, I mentioned pipetting. They also had some industrial assessments, awesome kitchen spaces, which was fun, got to use some different standardized ergonomic assessments, and then provide a lot of one on one education, but also did some team education to kind of strike more preventatively. So since the pandemic started, thing, so things shifted a bit. So while I was doing more ergonomics day-to-day, in that role, I really was focusing on working from home. So that has been even outside of schools a big shift and that same creativity element, like working with what people have what space people have totally different than being in the office. So that's been really fun for me.
Jayson Davies
Wow. And so did you do any? I mean, you mentioned the per diem work and the consulting work. Did you do zoom calls with employees at all in like, look at their workspace at home?
Kirsten Beshay
Yes, I've been doing virtual evaluations, in various capacities for five years. So that wasn't a big switch for me, but seeing people at home, most of those people might have been, you know, in a different place than I was but in an office and now, I already I should say back at the start of the pandemic, especially people just, you know, in a hotel room that was 300 square feet and like trying to figure out how to work so it's scary. Yeah, just very different than anything I've seen before, which was really fun. And there are a lot of solutions that you can provide in those spaces, that just force you to be a little more creative, which I really like. So not I would say to anybody who has worked from home, you know, as a result of the pandemic, that it doesn't mean that you can't be comfortable, and there aren't solutions. But you might just have to put in a little more effort to kind of look around the house and see what you have.
Jayson Davies
So I think I might actually have this question later. But I'm gonna ask it now. Because we're kind of on the topic of your previous employment. How did you even come to find a job like this? Like, you know, it's really easy. I don't know you type in school-based OT jobs, and they come up? Do you type in occupational therapy ergonomic jobs on Google? Or how do you even find these?
Kirsten Beshay
Not at all. Yeah, it's totally different. And I think this is one of the big reasons that many OTs don't really know much about, you know how to how to get into this or what this might look like. Because I don't search for OT related things I search usually, like when I'm keeping an eye on indeed.com, which is where I usually look, I just searched the word ergonomic, or, or ergonomist, or ergonomic specialists, but usually just the word like ergonomic or even ergo. You'll have to sort through a lot, unfortunately, but it's not quite as clean-cut as OT positions where you need a license, because you actually don't need a specific license or background to work in ergonomics. So of course, some backgrounds are more helpful than others, like our background, and Kinesiology and posture and activity analysis, all of those things are great, but you might find people coming from a lot of different backgrounds. And so I actually, when I first got into it and was looking for jobs after I'd kind of been exposed to this, I just started searching on Indeed the word ergonomic. And I also had sent some messages on LinkedIn, like cold messages, very uncomfortable for me to send some messages to people in the Bay Area, who were either OTs or PTs who were doing who seemed to be doing ergonomics for tech companies, because, you know, being from the Bay Area, I was like, that would be so cool. What would that be like? And I just messaged them and said, How did you get into this, but I shadow you, no one really could let me shadow them by someone gave me a manager's email, and then I just kind of periodically would check in with this manager. And then that's kind of one of the times I emailed they had a position. And then that's how I ended up, you know, interviewing for the position that I had for almost five years. So it was a roundabout way. But you know, I would say don't be afraid to just kind of look around for someone who is doing that type of thing, if that's what you're interested in, and often people are happy to help you. But if not, you know, starting with that basic search is good too.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. Wow. So you mentioned OTs and PTs. Did you notice while you were in the field, any other professions that were kind of gravitating toward ergonomics type of jobs? or What did you see? Where is it just OTs and PTs really applying? Or what type of other positions did you see applying for this type of job?
Kirsten Beshay
You know, I would say OTs and PTs are actually less common, at least in my personal experience. I don't have any hard, hard data on that. But I actually consulted for install and per diem for a physical therapy company that does some ergonomic consulting. So they have a few OTs in the clinic, too. But they actually have a lot more therapy background people because you know, their primary focus is outpatient therapy. Yeah. But of the other people that I've kind of run into, I've seen a lot of people who come in with maybe an athletic training background, or I don't know bachelors in human resources or kinesiology, or it really, really can vary. I'm trying to think of who else but yeah, it really draws a variety of people who have some sort of interest in like health sciences or movement or engineering, I actually have also met a lot of people in, you know, at conferences and things who are like engineers who focus on like, the ergonomic side, but they might look more at design. But yeah, it's definitely a mix. And I think the fact that you don't explicitly need a certain background or certification also, is a little confusing at first, but I think that also makes us very well qualified because we do have such wonderful training and a lot of relevant aspects.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, whenever you don't need a license or certificate or something, it definitely opens up the possibilities for other people to apply. But you kind of started to allude to and so I want to go with it is during your interviews during your application processes, do you feel like having that OT degree, supported you and helps you to find a job potentially?
Kirsten Beshay
Yes, I was huge. They like communicated to me that it was a great background. I think the key thing when I'm talking to OTs who are interested in ergonomics, you know, as a consultant or something like that, outside of school, specifically, that job search term criteria being different as one thing, that's a hurdle. And the other hurdle is when you get an interview, when you're sending in your resume, I have a different resume for that type of work. That is basically it's the same experience, but I don't use our like OT lingo terms, I use terms that a layperson would understand, you know, who doesn't know the OT world. So it's still relevant, but it's slightly different. And same with interviews, I really try to use terms that make sense without talking about oh, you know, I saw, I don't know, just talking about caseload in the hospital didn't wouldn't really make sense to them. Yeah. So I think just thinking about vocabulary was was another big piece.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha. Those are two great tips for anyone looking for a job. Alright. That leads right into the next question I have is you talked about using different lingo. You know, if you're in an interview for Corporation, a tech Corporation, you're not going to throw out terms like IDA, IEP, like, those are out the window. Vestibular, probably, yeah, you're not gonna use those. But where did you learn this lingo for ergonomics? Did you go out and search for additional training outside of school? You did mention that you had an elective at USC about ergonomics, but I'm sure you've read books, went to conferences, maybe what have you done to further your education in that particular area?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, well, I would say first, like the be day-to-day, I think familiarizing myself with the standardized assessments that I got in the elective was, you know, a crucial piece in the beginning, but working with clients doing education, I need to use simple language anyway. So you know, I'm going out and like learning all the technical terms and things, I'm still going to do exactly the same way we do with like, you know, Family Education, you know, like, I'm really gonna think about the way I present it. So that said, I use the textbook ergonomics for therapists by Karen Jacobs, who was actually my, my academic advisor when I did my OTD, which was really wonderful because it gave me as a therapist, kind of a good perspective on ergonomics. AOTA also has a lot of school-based OT Ergo stuff and some ergonomic things in general. So that is a great resource. And depending on interest, I actually have a course for occupational therapists who want to work in Ergo. And I also will have a free school-based OT ergonomics webinar at some point in the fall. There are also some other online and in-person courses on ergonomic topics. So depending on you know, if you're interested in industrial ergonomics for factories, you know, there's something specific for that. So it kind of depends on what level you're looking for.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, and you know, we always have show notes, we'll be sure to link your website so that people can find that. The other resources you have, you mentioned, familiarizing yourself with a few assessments. You don't need to go into detail. But are there a few big ones that you would recommend anyone kind of look into if they're interested in this line?
Kirsten Beshay
Oh, that's a good question. I have just been kind of going through my list for the course. So they're all fresh in my mind. And it's really honestly hard to pick. So there are a few checklists out there that are pretty, pretty standard. And then there are also a few kinds of more standardized assessments. So one that I really like is the Rebbe rapid while I'm thinking of the robot, and the real, actually, anyway, there are a few, but there are a few kinds of one to the page, you kind of take a quick look at posture, and it gives you a score, the ruba and the real, I can send you those links. And those are freely available. And you know, as a school-based OT you might not actually be using those to assess children. But I think that might still be kind of a nice, just gateway into, like, what we're looking for. I mean, we look at posture all the time. So I don't think that's new for anyone. But it's kind of nice to see another aspect of that.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, absolutely. Great. Yeah, go ahead. And you can send me those resources at any time. And we will add it on here. You also mentioned your mentor, which Karen Jacobs, I love Karen Jacobs. And, Karen, if you are listening to this, let's do a podcast together sometime. If you're listening to gears on this podcast, you need to know that you and I need to jump on a call together into one of these because you just have so much knowledge to share. So I just kind of plugged that in real quick. But that's so awesome that you get to work with her. Did you meet her and start working with her as part of your OTD?
Kirsten Beshay
You know, I actually met her at the human factors and ergonomics society conference in October. And then I had kind of there weren't any OTs there. And so I had kind of found her on the brochure and was like, I gotta go to everything she's doing. And I went up to her at a poster and in five minutes she convinced me to do the Boston University OTD program, and she was my academic mentor, and she has such a wonderful background in school and ergonomics. So it was a perfect fit. So yes, she has been a huge support and developing that course as my OTD project. She was a huge advocate for that too.
Jayson Davies
Awesome. Yeah, she's a brilliant mind. She's always Go in. And I just Yeah, she's fantastic. So you mentioned you went there for your OTD. And it sounds like you actually did your OTD in relationship to ergonomics. What was that all about?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah. So a lot of people as we kind of touched on earlier who are OT practitioners really don't know how to get started in ergonomics are really totally feel like they know what it is. We do have some questions about the licensing exam. But I think we spend a lot less time talking about ergonomics or at least terming things ergonomics that we look at, as I said, we look at posture all the time, and grasp and things like that, which are kind of overlapping and ergonomics and other areas. But I just felt like we have such a good background and activity analysis and knowledge of Kinesiology and creativity. So I thought that we are such a great fit. But it's strange that under 2% of OT practitioners are in that practice area. But I saw a statistic that about 69% wanted more information on the working industry is under so yes, and also musculoskeletal disorders were the most common non-fatal work-related injury in 2019. So it's just a huge scope, you know, like ergonomics gonna have such an impact. So I felt like we really needed more people, whether they're ergonomics consultants, or whether you know, we're in schools or in hospitals, like, they're aspects of ergonomics, and each, and I really felt like it was an opportunity for us as OT. So that's what led me to start developing that course.
Jayson Davies
That's awesome. Well, I'm excited. I think a lot of people are going to benefit from what you have to share with them, especially on ergonomics. So that's fantastic. And you said you're doing a webinar specific to school-based OT, so even better for our population at least.
Kirsten Beshay
Yes, that should be a one-hour webinar. So I will be condensing just the information that I think is most crucial. I won't have you go through all eight to 10 hours.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, that's cool. Very cool. So before we move on to how ergonomics relates to school-based OT, that's what we're going to get into for like the second you know, half of this episode, I want to ask you one more job as it relates to ergonomics outside of school-based OT and the job and, and all that and would you say it's a growing field, a shrinking field, a steady field? Do you think there's going to be a lot more opportunities for school-based OTs to use to get into this type of area?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah. Are you thinking more like consultants?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, consultant or no? Do I don't even know big businesses? Do they hire their own person just to do ergonomics? Or is it mostly consulting work?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, that's a great question. The very, very large companies will have an internal team, I was at a very large company, as a contractor, and I was still a contractor. So even if you're part of like a team, that's just at one company, you might still be a contractor or a consultant, you might just, you know, have more hours there. But if, if it's not a really, really large company, it might be more of like a quarterly need, or they might want to have someone on hand if Oh, I think there's an issue here. So it depends. But all the need is absolutely there. And it's growing. I mean, especially with all of these changes in what work looks like with people just working from home with, you know, of course, none of us had much morning. And so I've seen a lot of discomfort coming from that. And I want to touch on that, in terms of us as school-based OTs too, because we have to think about ourselves and our own health and well being I'm sure there are people listening who have had some sort of discomfort or re come up of working from home on a laptop without much mourning. But yeah, in transitioning back to the office, things might start looking different. Some people might not be there, you know, people might be rotating desks, or people might be partly working from home. So I think there's a huge need. And as I said that, that musculoskeletal disorder incidence is so high. And we really, if you look at the data, we can save so much money by, you know, providing ergonomic services, whether it's preventative, or we're addressing something that's already going on if you make the case that the company can really save so much money in workers compensation costs, and it's a huge and growing field. So I think we have to kind of think a little bit about how we approach that and present that. So for new people, I found it easier to go with an existing company that had an opening for a consultant, but I think it's it's a wonderful thing to keep an eye on and I do touch on promoting ourselves and making the financial case for services in the course if that's something people are interested into.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha. You know, sorry, I just keep coming up with new questions. So we're gonna stay here a little bit longer and that is, so you are a consultant. You work for you said at the time or I don't know if it still is but for a physical therapy practice. The company is reaching out to the physical therapy practice asking for a consultant to come in to look at ergonomics. What are they really asking for... Do they even know what they're asking for? Are they saying we have a budget of you know, $20,000 and we want everyone to want to have nice ergonomic desks? Are they asking for one particular person you to come look at? What is that even? What is the referral per se? If we're going to use more OT terms?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, you know, I think you can look really different. And I'm not super privy to that specific company. But in general, I would say, it really, it can be kind of a one-off, or, oh, we've had a couple of injuries. And we're a little worried about this. So we want someone to kind of come and do a report and tell us, you know, what, we should change what equipment we should change, like, give us a list, here's our budget, and then we'll address it. So that could be one thing, I think there is gradually more and more knowledge about ergonomics on the company level, and so on. And sometimes it's seen as a perk, which fundamentally, I don't really believe it is, but it can feel like that, especially at these large tech companies. So I think that it's popular if you offer it, but also I do think that there's a sense that, you know, it will protect the employees and will hopefully save the company money. So I think sometimes you might be approached, or sometimes the consulting company might approach, you know, just companies and say, do you have anybody offering this service? Like this is how much money it might save? And then that might be how that relationship starts? Wow. So it can probably vary quite a bit.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, of course. I mean, and, you know, it's very different. Once you get out of the public sector of schools, you know, things are so much different once you get out of government-funded entities of any kind. I mean, they can really do anything they want. And so you've got Google wants one thing, Apple wants something completely different. And then any subsidiary of them on something else. So yeah, I can very definitely big time. Alright, so we're gonna kind of as much as I could probably ask you questions about the field of ergonomics outside of school-based OT. Obviously, most of the listeners that listen, to this podcast are school-based OTs, and they want to know, what they can do with their clients, how economics relates to school-based OT. And so I guess my first question is, is how do you feel like having that best knowledge and ergonomics has helped you as a school-based OT?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, so I mentioned posture a lot. So we all know that that's a piece of, you know, an overlapping piece, I would say, looking at grasp is also something that I feel that, you know, my background and ergonomics helps me to do is a little bit stating the obvious, but doing teletherapy I think computer usage, I like I'm very well equipped to look at, you know, what, what is my student using? What am I using that's working for me or not working for me? Specifically, how are my eyes doing? Am I straining them? You know, while I'm using all of these screens? Also, how is the furniture fitting, and you talked about using the trashcan, footrest, that type of thing, you know, like, is the chair too high? What can we do about that a lot of the furniture that we see in schools is just one size? And you know, that might, you know, we might not have, you know, kind of thought about what size that is, or it might obviously not fit every percentile of the student. Also looking at backpacks. I know AOTA has an annual Backpack Awareness Day that Karen Jacobs was very involved in the price. But I think as we come back to schools, especially, it's great to highlight because depending on what area you're in, and how much people are going back in my students, at least most of the year was virtual. And so we haven't thought about how much weight is in a backpack and how a backpack is fitting. And if we're using one from two years ago, it's probably not going to fit anymore. And then just movement, what the same kind of behavior modification, we were talking about what standing at the desk, I think, is a great thing to think about what students and we think about that. But we don't always realize that that's also ergonomic. So some of these things we're all doing. But I do think that having that background and doing it with adults for a long time, I do a lot of the same things with my students.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And so over the past, we'll just say the last school year, what have been some very common things that you said to kids that two parents said to teachers, as a result of ergonomics, and kids learning from home, and obviously, people not being in the same room and learning.
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, I mean, first off, it's been tough. You know, I think we all have kind of adapted our expectations a bit, you're not going to get like the cleanest, most straightforward therapy session all the time, you know, parents might or might not be able to be there. So, you know, we do the best we can. But I would say I mentioned computers, and that's such a crucial piece of ergonomics, both for us and for our students. And we've seen a huge increase in computer usage for school-aged students over the pandemic, not shocking to anyone, but we really don't know what the long term trends of that will be, especially as it relates to eye care, but also musculoskeletal disorders and posture and all of that. So I developed some handouts on computer usage. I know the human factors and ergonomics society has some too. We'll have some links in there, but you just kind of that basic knowledge of having a screen at eye level, if your students are on a laptop, maybe having a separate keyboard and mouse for them, that's more elbow height, and then fading the screen on some books just to have that basic, you know, looking straight ahead at the screen and also having your elbows kind of at 90 degrees while you're typing and mousing. If you can, I didn't always get there with my students, it's not, um, I know that a big push as some of my Schools has been to have everyone's faces on zoom, you know, to like be able to see the whole face and like actively participating. And for me, I absolutely cannot have my laptop screen angle that way over the course of the day. So personally, I would encourage students to angle it back a little bit more. So I can see the forehead, which is what all my junior highers love to do anyway, just show me the very top of their head, but to have it angled, so you're not looking down quite as hard at the screen, it's kind of coming to you a little bit more. And you know, I know this is diving a little bit into interoception. But also some of our students might not really be paying attention to is my neck aching from looking down all day. So we really have to, like walk them through How are you feeling with this position? So I would ask that a lot. Like, are you noticing your neck is sore? Are you noticing your wrists are sore? You know, do you feel like you're punching down? and usually, they say no, I feel fine. But you know, just kind of helping them walk through that. And that can help us catch any ergonomic risks that are there. I also would encourage having a dedicated space, although again, I definitely didn't have that with all my students. So you got to take what you can get. It's tough, but I think lots of parent collaboration and education, you know, sensory tips, a lot of self-feedback about the organization at home. And really just having a team effort was huge. I had a lot of teachers once I started giving handouts on ergonomics really coming to me with someone asked me specifically about eyestrain so that I made a handout on eyestrain to distribute. I ended up doing a little five-minute online video for the teachers on ergonomics so that they could protect themselves. So I think it really gave us some nice visibility into what OT can do. Apart from handwriting.
Jayson Davies
Exactly. Trying to get away from just being the handwriting teacher. No, I love that. I mean, I've got my setup here. And yeah, I had to, I've raised up my laptop a little bit. So it's not at eye level, but it's definitely a lot higher than what it would be if it's just sitting on the table. I've got my keyboard, my separate keyboard, and my separate mouse here. And my second monitor is on top of a textbook, will Willard inspections occupational therapy textbook. And so, no, I get that, you know, we're all trying to do that. With kids. It's been difficult. I mean, I've worked with a few sessions with kids. And it's like, they're at their dining room table learning. And I went as far with this student, I knew she was getting distracted, her teachers were telling me she's distracted all the time. And so I was like, Alright, well, no name, what is behind your computer screen. And oh my gosh, she turned around her computer screen, she was so nervous about doing it. And just the entire rest of the dining room table is just filled with toys. And luckily, the mom was kind of in the background listening. And so she was very open when I started because you know, mom has tried to do something. Let's go back to the conversation and think we had earlier about you know, dad tells you something, it means nothing, but someone else tells you something, right? And so the mom was very happy to hear me talk about, hey, we need to have separate areas for play and a separate area for learning. And I know that's not possible for everyone, especially learning at home. But when it is possible I that's huge, because she went from being super distracted in class to actually being able to get some work done. And all it was, was making sure that her toys stayed up in her room as opposed to down in her working area. So yeah, big aspect.
Kirsten Beshay
Absolutely.
Jayson Davies
Alright, so going back to your experience in a school-based OT, we have talked so much about ergonomics here. But obviously, you can't just be an ergonomic only occupational therapist in the schools, I like to say that we have to be, we have to know a little bit about everything. Because we could have a kid with autism one day kid with down syndrome the next minute, and we have to know a little bit about all of it. We can't specialize in one thing. And so, while I know you bring the ergonomic side to the table, I mean, I don't even know how to ask this question. I mean, you're not just an ergonomic therapist in the schools, you have to do everything, right.
Kirsten Beshay
Absolutely. Yes. So I have I do focus a lot on you know, kind of my individual students as I'm working with them one on one, but this is also a great tier one to think about it. I see that so that they make the point that it fits into what I'm doing with them, you know, so it's not I'm usually not doing justice ergonomics session. It's kind of integrated with other things that we're doing. I think also, you know, maybe plugging in self-feedback, if we're working on handwriting, and we're doing some self-feedback, or, you know, putting in a question about ergonomics there. There might be times where I spend the kind of a little bit more of one session, you know, checking in on how's your backpack weigh, you know, or how, you know, organization wise, you know, how many things are you putting in your backpack, and that might be more of like a monthly check-in or something like that. Or, you know, if we're working on typing, the first couple times of the year, we might focus on computer ergonomics, you know, talking through a little bit of that, because I do work with older students junior high in high school. And so talking through that, and then potentially, even if I have cell feedback for typing, maybe making get aware was the keyboard position, or it was I using the mouse or was using the trackpad or something like that. But most of the sessions I do integrate with other things. It's not exclusively ergonomics. I would also say that, if I'm doing an observation, I might spend a lot more time looking at ergonomics, then while I'm observing other things at the same time, yeah, especially you know, I mentioned backpack, so maybe looking at the fit of the backpack. Ideally, a backpack should have a maximum of up to 10% of a child's body weight. So I probably won't have a scale on hand, but I might get a good sense if I pick it up. And I'm like, this feels like 25 pounds, right? They're also observing, you know, if I'm observing, typing, or you know, like, anything like that in the classroom, I'm going to note the ergonomics of that. So are they reaching really far up the desk? Or the keyboard? Are they really are they on the laptop and their screen is just totally upright, and they're just cranking their neck down to look at it? Obviously, we all know to look for other feet dangling or they planted on the floor, is the chair way too big for them do we maybe need to throw a cushion on there is the desk height looking like it's you know, around their elbow height for typing or a little bit higher for writing, we'd look at playing board. So all that to say generally, it's not just an ergonomics day. But if I'm observing, I might spend a little more time thinking about that.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And I've told this story many times too, as I've seen kids that are being scolded for moving in their seats. And I was literally watching the kid and the kid was trying to put their foot on the bottom of the table because that's all that they could reach like the, you know how they go down and they tee at the bottom, they were trying to put their feet on that tee because they couldn't reach the floor and got scolded because they were sitting at the edge of their desk because that's where they could actually reach the floor. And with that, this leads into the next question, because I know you do some training. And so in my experience, when I did that, you know, I wasn't gonna say anything to the teacher, right at the moment. I mean, first of all, I'm in there observing in the middle of the day, I'm not just going to go up to the teacher and say something, but I did leader, I sent an email and just then said, I didn't say any specific kid or anything, but just Hey, just so you know, some kids weren't able to reach the floor and went about it that way. How do you go about helping teachers when you see kids not necessarily, maybe not using the best posture not able to reach the seat? Or if you notice something in the classroom? How do you help the teachers?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, I love what you said about, you know, maybe sending an email out, especially if it's not for a specific student, that I think that's, you know, a pretty what's the word, I guess, non-aggressive, you know, it's not in the moment, it's later, so they have time to think about it. I think that's great. And, you know, offering to kind of maybe suggestions for Oh, it looks like a few kids have their feet dangling. You mentioned phone books, and how we never have those. But if there's like something similar that, you know, we can, we might think about having a few in the back of the rooms that you know, if anybody is noticing that, you know, kids can kind of pull same with like cushions and, and keyboards. And also I'd say the same in terms of breaks, which is something I think we do as OTs in schools think about a lot. But if I noticed that it looks like you're doing a little bit more of a stretch break, as opposed to kind of a break seated, doing something slightly different. You know, I might throw that in the email, too. If it's kind of a one-off, and I know that teacher well, I might say it in-person kind of right at the end. But I like to if there's something that I can offer as a resource at the same time, I like to do that. So I might wait until, you know, I have like a stretch handout or I can offer to you know, lead a stretch break, kind of see some of the different stretches. Yeah, that type of thing.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And earlier, you mentioned a short, like five-minute training that you did was that for the teachers or for the kids, and how did that come about?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, you know, that's kind of a fun story. It was for the staff and not the students and people had kind of known when I joined this year that I had done ergonomics before. I think you know, it was just kind of the background that I shared when everybody's meeting each other on zoom because we did everything online at the beginning of the year. And so my team lead had asked me to do like a two minute or five minutes, ergo kind of working from home tips for our like staff meeting, you know, one of the first meetings of the year, so just a couple minutes. And then someone there said, Oh, can you maybe give us a handout? And so I made a handout. And then our Director of Special Ed was there. And she really liked it. And so then she said, Oh, wow, could you would you consider making a five to 10-minute video about working from home for everybody, and then our HR team could distribute it. So that's how I ended up doing a five-minute video of myself at my kitchen table with like sitting on a, you know, a couch pillow, and who has my laptop on a bunch of books, you haven't recorded that myself. And then that ended up being distributed to the entire regional team, which was very cool.
Jayson Davies
Wow, that is impressive. That's cool. And you're right, though, I just want to point out too, is that it is amazing. And I tell therapists in my course, I tell them all the time, one thing can turn into something much bigger. And like for you, it just started with the sound like it started with like a little one school just wanted a little bit, a few tips. And then it ended up and the whole district is now seeing your little video. And so start small, you don't need to change the world all at once. You can help one teacher, which may turn into two teachers, which may turn into an entire school, which may turn into an entire district. And you know, you don't have to start but you don't have to create a video for the entire district to start. Just start with one teacher. And you'll be surprised at how far that really can go. And it sounds like that's exactly what happened with you.
Kirsten Beshay
Definitely. That's Yeah, I mentioned one of the teachers later said, Oh, well, do you have anything for eye care? And I didn't. So I ended up, you know, a month later when I had some time making something. And then a couple of months later, that same teacher said, Oh, we've had a request from our school to have a presentation on executive function. Oh, what about the OT? And so I ended up co-presenting with the school psychologist. But I really think I probably wouldn't have been thought of first for that unless, you know, they had been like, Oh, well, she's done this. So that was a kind of cool visibility, an opportunity for me.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, yeah. And you know, the same exact thing happened to me, I presented for our three or four special education teachers at a school and the director of special education happened to be there. And then the next thing I knew she wanted us to present at a much larger meeting. And then you're presenting for paraprofessionals for teachers, for people that you would have never had the chance to introduce occupational therapy and what we can do unless you start with that, that first little thing, so very cool. All right, remind me again, you are now in the schools. Is it a public school, private school charter school? What is it?
Kirsten Beshay
Yes, thanks for asking. I didn't mention that earlier. So it's probably a little confusing. So I work for KIPP charter schools in Northern California. So it's, it's basically like, you know, a large district. So we have a few schools in San Jose, we have a few schools in Redwood City. Anyway, we're kind of distributed. I couldn't even tell you what the current number of schools is, they're always opening one or two more, but I do work for a charter school system, supporting junior high and high school students. And so I got five or six different schools and kind of do a variety of things.
Jayson Davies
And so in August, are you going to be returning in person for the most part?
Kirsten Beshay
As far as I know, right now, I think we're all kind of waiting to see with California what, what changes are happening? I think, for now, we're wearing masks. But you know, the school year hasn't really started. So I don't think I've heard too much official.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. Okay. And so do you think it's going to be fairly similar in your practice, when you obviously things are going to be in person when that happens, as opposed to online. But do you think your actual practice as an occupational therapist, other than just being on a computer is going to change very much? Or do you think is still going to be pretty similar?
Kirsten Beshay
You mean, in terms of like, what I'm doing...
Jayson Davies
Yeah, what you're actually doing?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, you know, when we did get to see some of our students in person, the second half of the school year, not everybody, but it was interesting, because some things I actually kept very much the same, some things I tried to change up. But of course, at that point, you know, some things run boxes, we didn't have all the equipment we would normally have. And so it was actually great because I really was a minimalist, you know, I was like, Okay, I got a piece, I got some printer paper, I've got some markers. This is what I know, I have today, I can do stuff with this. And I know some stretches. So I think it will be I'll have a lot more equipment. I mean, I had it available, but you know, I just really didn't want to have that much on my brain. So I wanted to start really simple, you know, do some, you know, bring in like one toy bring in, you know, one game. And so I think I'll probably be expanding a lot more the types of activities that I'm doing. But I do think that whether we end up having to do it virtually at some point in the future or not, you know, I think it's more there's more awareness about It now. And so having those, that ergonomic knowledge about computer skills, even if we're just working on typing with a student is going to be more and more of an important piece to have.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. And you know, you're in a unique position, I didn't realize you're mostly with junior in high school, that's fairly unique. I feel like most of us occupational therapists, tend to at least have one elementary school. And typically, it's, you know, several elementary schools, maybe one junior and maybe one high school. But that's unique, that you're more in that upper grade. Have you had the chance to focus at all on working with kids and their actual cell phone devices? Because you're in that older? I know, a lot of kids now are using their cell phones to take pictures of notes or to even maybe use text to speech. Have you had that come up?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny, because I've been on campus less than I've been in school, it's possible that I'm not super up to date. But my understanding is that they don't allow cell phones, at least at the schools that were in person if I was there, during the day, unless, of course, there were a special need. So there have been instances where we've used an iPad or a laptop for some of those features, you know, like the PDF to print. I mean, I'm forgetting the names of all those apps where you can write on them. Yeah, but definitely, we definitely do a fair amount of focusing on that. And I know I spent a lot of time kind of talking about Grammarly. This year, we're talking about, you know, looking at reading and write and co-writer and like, which would be appropriate for which kid and word prediction and using the text to speech or sorry, the voice dictation feature on Google Docs and all of that. So I'm still definitely learning one of the other people on my team. It's kind of my go-to for assistive technology recommendations. But I think we do a fair amount of that with the older students for sure.
Jayson Davies
Gotcha. All right. Well, Kirsten, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show sharing so much about ergonomics, both in the schools and outside of the schools really appreciate you coming on and just given us so much information about that. It's really awesome to see how things that you learn outside of the school-based world can kind of be brought into the school-based OT world and just make me an even better therapist through all that learning outside. Before I let you go. Are there any resources where people are, maybe not even resources, just where can people learn more about you? Do you have a website or Instagram or do you prefer to have people find you?
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, so the best place is my website, which is kirstenbeshay.net/schoolergo, that's where I'm going to have information about my free one-hour webinar on ergonomics for schools, which should be out in the fall. So that's probably the best place to start. I'm also on LinkedIn. So all of that information will also I’m sure be up there at some point. So I'm sure this will be in the show notes. But I would say LinkedIn or that website are my best points of contact.
Jayson Davies
Sounds great. Well, thank you so much for coming to the show. Really appreciate you doing this. And I'm sure everyone out there listening has just learned so much from you today. So I really appreciate it.
Kirsten Beshay
Yeah, thank you. It's so much fun to be here.
Jayson Davies
Thank you. We'll have to catch up more once you got that course out. And I am looking forward. Looking forward to that webinar. That'll be a good one. So I will be checking out kirstenbeshay.net/schoolergo. And we will of course put the links to everything you just mentioned. And, and maybe even some of the resources you mentioned above in the show notes. With that, thank you. I really appreciate you being here.
Kirsten Beshay
Thanks for having me.
Jayson Davies
Take care. Bye.
Kirsten Beshay
Bye.
Jayson Davies
Thank you all again, so much for checking out the OT School House podcast. I really hope this episode with Kirsten really just opened your eyes to ergonomics and what OTs can do in the field of ergonomics. Even if you are working as a school-based occupational therapist, there is definitely something that you can look at in regards to ergonomics. And for some of you who might be looking to venture out of school-based OT know that there is something you can do out there with ergonomics. All right. With that take care. I really hope you enjoyed this episode and I will see you next time. Bye-bye.
Amazing Narrator
Thank you for listening to the OT School House podcast. For more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com. Until next time, class is dismissed.
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