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Welcome to the show notes for Episode 89 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast.
In this episode of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, we have a very special guest with decades of experience in helping therapists, teachers, and adults around the world to support students with handwriting difficulties.
Dr. Bev is a nationally recognized speaker with 43+ years of experience as an Occupational Therapist. As a school therapist, she serviced more than fifteen school districts, visiting over 60 individual schools. She has experienced the shift of practice in the schools over the years and shares her knowledge with us in this interview.
A creative entrepreneur, determined researcher, and tireless professional, she is also the author of The Size Matters Handwriting Program. Currently used in every state and 5 continents, its concept-driven approach to teaching and remediating handwriting has been proven effective at a .001 level of significance in the largest research study ever done on handwriting.
I am excited to have Dr. Moskowitz joining us to talk about all things School-Based OT.
You can listen to the audio version above or on your preferred podcast player. Or you may watch the interview below. Either way, I hope you enjoy this episode of the OT School House Podcast!
Links to Show References:
Learn more about Dr. Moskowitz and her programs at RealOTSolutions.com
Transcript
Download the Transcript or read the episode below!
Jayson Davies
Hello there, and welcome to the very first episode of 2022. I cannot believe that I am saying that. But welcome to 2022 Thank you so much for taking the time out of your early week or maybe the second week, or maybe you're listening to this a lot later. But thank you for taking the opportunity to listen to this podcast. Today we have a very special guest who in the world of school-based occupational therapy probably needs no introduction, but I'm going to give her one anyway, we have on the wonderful the talented, the evidence-based Dr. Beverly Moskowitz of the Size Matters handwriting program and the realotsolutions.com website. I'm so excited to have Beverly on today. Many of you have probably seen her in the halls of the AOTA conference, or maybe your state associations, she just has so much energy, so much passion for occupational therapy, and also a passion for the research behind occupational therapy. So I'm excited to have her on this day. We are not only going to talk about her size matters handwriting program, but also a future endeavor that she is working on. But we're also going to have Beverley talk a little bit about her experiences as a school-based occupational therapist. She has been a school-based occupational therapist for several decades. And so she's kind of seen our profession evolve over the years back when we didn't even really participate in IEPs and IEPs were very unofficial to where we are today where an IEP is the backbone of every single student that we see for the most part unless we're doing five-oh fours and RTIs or students study teams, SST's or whatnot. So be sure to put that phone away, put it in your pocket, and just enjoy this episode. It is so much fun. This is actually a recording of a live episode that Beverly and I did together on YouTube. And if you'd like to watch the video, the recording of the video that we did, you can do that at otschoolhouse.com/episode 89. Or you can just continue to listen and you will get the audio version of that right here right now. So stay tuned. Enjoy the episode, and I like to welcome to the OT Schoolhouse podcast, Dr. Beverly Moskowitz. Enjoy the episode. Hello, hello, everyone, and welcome to a very special edition of the OT Schoolhouse podcast. Thank you so much for being here this afternoon and evening with us today. I am your host, Jayson Davies. And if you are here, please just type into the chat, let me know that you're here. Maybe type in there where you're from, or if you're an occupational therapist, or an occupational therapy assistant just helps us to feel a little bit more involved and engaged when we see that chat going on. And we really appreciate that. So if you can take a moment to go ahead and let us know that you are on in the chat. We really appreciate that. Awesome. We have Andres here from an occupational therapist from Illinois. Thank you so much for being here. I'm just thanking you for typing into the chat. I'm just making sure we've got everything set up for our questions. Thank you all. We already have 10 likes here have, I believe Around 20 people or so watching live. So we really appreciate you being here this evening, this afternoon with us and we're actually going to go ahead and get started. We have a very special guest today. Her name is Dr. Beverly Moskowitz, and she is an OT a doctor of occupational therapy. She is a fellow of the AOTA Association. She has done the research. And as many of you probably know, she is the creator of the Size Matters handwriting program, and also the owner at realotsolutions.com. So I'm very excited to welcome to our show, Dr. Beverly Moskowitz. So there you see her right there. Before I dive in and say hello to Beverly real quickly. Thank you, Tanya. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Debbie, Aaron. All these showing up really appreciate you being here. So let's go ahead and let's dive right into it. Welcome to the show. Dr. Beverly Moskowitz. How are you doing today?
Beverly Moskowitz
I'm great. I'm excited to be here too. I have to share with everybody. This is my first podcast. So I'm a little nervous on my end that I speak all the time. But honestly, when I'm in front of a camera or a microphone, sometimes it's like I don't even know English. So I hope that this is coherent and fun for you. I am excited to go forward.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. And as I mentioned, you know this is very different. Usually when we record a podcast simply for the OT Schoolhouse podcast. We do it without an audience but today we have a live audience As everyone here from all over the country, and it's just it's going to be an exciting show. If we have some time, in the end, we'll do some Q&A, which will be even more fun. We don't usually get to do that on a podcast on all audio podcasts. So, yeah, I'm excited to get right into this. And, you know, the first thing I wanted to ask you actually is about your early career and how you found your way into pediatrics and working as an occupational therapist with kids in schools.
Beverly Moskowitz
Well, first, I have to share, I'm doing this for 46 years, I can't even believe that much time went by it goes by in a blink. So I graduated in the 70s. In the 70s, you could practice with a bachelor's degree. So I got a BS from the University of Pennsylvania no longer even has a program anymore. And back then you had two rotations, you did adult rehab you did or rehab and psychiatry if you want to do pediatrics, you had to do an extra three months. I always knew I wanted to work with kids. And so I chose to pursue the third rotation. We call them internships back then. Their fieldwork right now. But I always knew that I wanted to work in peds only this big, to begin with, so bigger than the kids.
Jayson Davies
That's funny. Yeah. And so what was your first job, actually? Did you end up directly into a school? Or were you in a clinic? Or what did that look like?
Beverly Moskowitz
Okay, so, first of all, there weren't a whole bunch of jobs out there. Hospitals, or odd children's clinics, their school practice wasn't a thing. So you really had to be created if you want to work with kids. And ultimately, you had lots of little contracts. My first contract was in a residential facility. And no back. This is the 70s that kids were kind of warehouse and I hate to say it, but that was a reality of life. If you had a severe disability you were put into an institution. So I worked in an institution for a few months, I didn't love it. And then I got an opportunity to go to the St. Edmund's home for Crippled Children. And that's what they called it back then they use that language because they wanted to get the donations and the sympathy money. And they needed a department head, I had only been working two months, I became the department head. I was at the department of one. So I worked at St. Edmund's for two years, I will share with you my career just took off. The church was very generous in sending me to every single course that I ever got a flyer for. And I do encourage everybody, if there are new graduates out there amongst you, every time that you can read something, take a course listen to a podcast, apparently they're educational. Do it, do it, I took everything out there. And I really felt like my learning curve had been expedited. And then after that, I got involved with a consulting group. So get back in the 70s, there was an institution called Pennhurst that had all of these disabled adults, and it had been decided that was inhumane. So different agencies were bringing these disabled adults into the community in group homes. I became the coordinating consultant for and I'm talking to you from Philadelphia, right now, Philadelphia and the surrounding counties. I went to all of these group homes and created programs for the staff to do with the people that were living in these homes. And I traveled the entire city I put a lot of mileage on. But again, in terms of could you work in pediatrics, you could work in related developmental disability fields. So I would do that for a few hours. But then I would also work in a preschool center, and then I would do a sheltered workshop. And I would do some other residential facilities or home care like I worked 15 different contracts. I, when I started to work in schools, was still juggling a whole bunch of contracts. But none of it was ever a full-time job. If you got a few hours in a school, that was that day, Tuesday mornings, I'm in this particular school district, then I got one that was an hour and a half. I mean a day and a half of work. So you, you stitched all of your contracts together to make a living. Now, of course, schools have multiple therapists, but I was the only one for around 15 different school districts. I visited more than 60 different schools, sometimes as many as seven in a day.
Jayson Davies
Wow. Wow, that's a lot. Wow. Yeah. And you know, as you mentioned now it's very different whether you work for a district in itself or even a contractor. You're primarily going to be in the schools. There are some contractors that will still have you maybe come back to the clinic and the Afternoon or something like that. But for the most part, we kind of stick to either clinic-based or school-based, which is very different than what you were doing where you'd have so many different contracts at a time. So yeah, that's pretty crazy. You mentioned that you had to go and get some training. At that point in your career very early in your career, what was concerning to you? Or what did you feel like you needed to learn in order to do your job? And what did you reach out for?
Beverly Moskowitz
So um, I learned a lot of stuff in school, but I wasn't really sure if I was being effective. I, I've always had the drive to know that my time was worth it. It was worth it to me, it was worth it to the person I was working with. And I made a difference. So there was a lot of back then we were not an evidence-based profession. But because I had this internal drive, I was always testing myself to see if I could make a difference. Was I being effective in school? Was I being effective at home? Did people really enjoy the fact that I had been there? Did I make a difference there? So I was reading, I was learning I was taking courses, I was trying everything, you could play around a lot more than that actually was kind of nice. Now, evidence-based practice is definitely the way to go. But when we had no evidence, you were doing your own experimentation all the time. And I was always creative and always trying things out. And that's kind of how they have already played around back then.
Jayson Davies
Yeah.
Beverly Moskowitz
But I Yeah, it was more loosey-goosey. And I had to be resourceful. We didn't have any internet. You know, you had to go to conferences and learn from your colleagues.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And you mentioned how and before we got on here, you actually just mentioned how you didn't even have to do paperwork back then. And just helping somebody.
Beverly Moskowitz
So don't shoot me, anybody. This is what so what was school-based OT like back in the western working in schools in the late 80s, early 90s. And there was no requirement for paperwork. I'm not sure that IEPS had reared its head yet. But all notetaking was a little bit looser. And nobody knew what I was doing. Now I had been recruited. It was very interesting my reputation as somebody that understood why I was there, it was never supposed to be about me, it really is about everybody else. And listen, friends, it's probably like alike attention. I'm standing in front of you, podcasting right now. But I know when I'm in a school, I'm really there to serve. I'm there to serve the teachers and the kids and the parents and make sure everyone gets along. So I knew that and I was recruited by the district in which I lived, which was fantastic as my kids went there. And just the same, I wanted them to invite me back. So I created paperwork, I, I created what I call the summary of Service Report, at the end of the year, I wanted them to know, everything I worked on so that they thought you know, we should have that back. She does all that stuff. Now, of course, we're drowning in paperwork. But when I didn't have to go to any meetings, we had, no, there were no IEPs, there was news data collection, I will tell you, there was no security. So when I was covering all of those schools, I could drive up to the back door run in do my little magic. Of course, I had no office. So you have to do your math in the hallway. And the closet, literally in the closet, on the stage, the cafeteria, you had no budget, you are buying your own stuff. Teachers still buy their own stuff. It's called investment in your in yourself. Lots of changes that you know that over time, some good and not some not so good.
Jayson Davies
Right? And so do you remember when there was a large shift and when you really started to get invited to IEPs? And they're starting to ask you maybe for progress on goals? I mean, does that even, or did it just kind of gradually happen over time.
Beverly Moskowitz
So a little bit gradually. But yeah, there was a period of time where this thing called the IEP reared its head. And putting this in perspective, it wasn't clear even to the administrators who were training us on how these things worked. They were always opening up their manuals to try and like get a little bit more clarity on what OT service should be. And, you know, we were a line item related service was a line item next to transportation. That's, you know, where they put related services. So everybody was figuring out but language started to populate the day FAPE free and appropriate public education was not always a thing. Least restrictive environment. So that was interesting. And I had really good intuitions I really felt way back when that you want me in the classroom. You don't want me pulling kids out? How? How am I going to know what you need kids to do? How are you going to know what I did if I can show you? So from the very beginning, even before this collaborative model evolved, before the least restrictive environment was more fleshed out a, as a concept as a strategy. I was pushing into classrooms, and I was learning from them. And that was something that later evolved. But it wasn't always the case that I'll share with you also, there was a period of time, for better or for worse, that the teachers, the therapists, you wrote through what their dream plan was going to be the education plan. And then during the 90s, I forget which President which act it was, but parents got a lot more power. And that's a good thing. It actually is good that parents have a seat. I know that that wasn't always the case, there was a very long period that parents had to accept whatever their school said was the right thing, even if it meant shipping them off their kids off to a different school, not their home schools. So that happened where I was. And then when they started bringing home these kids into our home district, we had to figure out how we're going to accommodate them. So I saw a lot of changes, parents having a voice, bringing in advocates, lots of paperwork, those procedural safeguards. They didn't always use to be a thing. Okay, now, just recycled it. But yeah, a lot of changes. At this point, right. I do think the pendulum might have swung a little bit too far to the side of deferring to parents. And listen, I'm a parent too. But sometimes you want the professionals to weigh in and give you some guidance there. I observed a Facebook discussion today where an advocate had apparently vetoed all the OT's goals. I'm like, Oh, I believe that's overstepping. So, okay, so it has to swing back a little bit.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And it's hard to find that balance. But you're right. It used to be a team decision, not a parent decision, not an advocate decision, not an OT decision, a team decision. And so we all have to kind of agree. So yeah, right there with you. Alright, I do want to step into the present. But I have one more thing that I want to talk about or ask you about how things have changed. And that's evaluations. How have you seen evaluations change over time?
Beverly Moskowitz
So, um, I want to talk about valuations and treatment. Okay, we really didn't have a big repertoire of avails back, then we had some developmentally. And that's what we did. Now, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm a really good therapist, I have never cured somebody who has an intellectual disability. Okay, so I, I felt all along. Why are you asking me to do developmental vows, the child's always going to not measure up, I get there, so functional, and you really don't need OT services if the teacher can fully include them in all the activities, and they're participatory. So that was back then the evals, the evals have evolved, we have more criterion-referenced, we still have standardized assessments, I get it, you need to have some kind of barometer. So you can measure change. Not a big fan of a lot of standardized assessments, I'll be honest with you, they typically never speak to what I was working on. So I'm more a fan of what we call now performance-based assessments. I think that was a smart move in evaluations, moving away from a deficit-based evaluation process, I don't want to know all the things that kids can't do, I want to know what they can do. And if that's still problematic, that's where I'm starting. So that's been a lovely evolution in our services moving away from the deficit-based to what we call the strength-based assessment, in terms of up treatment, pushing into the classrooms, I think is the right thing to do. Now, I've been in schools where they have these gorgeous OT departments, I was invited to one of those schools with a gorgeous OT department. And I said to them, so I think this is really mixed messaging. Like, I don't think you want me to have a medical model. And when parents see this, they want that pull-out service. You want me to go into your classroom. And in terms of all that stuff that you have, that's in the cabinets that you allowed the previous OT to buy, that's lovely, but I think you want to use that either. You won't be using this stuff that's already in the classroom because isn't that the stuff that kids actually have to use during the course of the day? So I'm very practical and my straight talk appeal to a lot of administrators, as I said, my reputation as somebody who got it was out there and I never looked for job districts always sought me out because they knew that I would do the right thing by the district, by the kids, the teachers, and the parents.
Jayson Davies
And that's interesting because you know, we do have this clinic model school model. And to kind of go back and forth, you really don't see the education model going into the clinic, but you do see the clinic model going into education a lot. And you're right, I've worked at districts where we do have a, maybe it's one clinic at one of the schools where more of the autism classrooms are based, or there might even be a few motor labs or whatever we might want to call them. And that does, it's moving into the classrooms more, it's moving into the schools more I should say. And so that's, that is a very interesting talk. And we have that talk a lot with all OTs that I talked to about, you know, what's clinic-based? What's educational based? Should we be pulling kids out of a classroom to provide 30 minutes of some sort of sensory type of therapy? And I, as someone asked me earlier, like, Is their research to back some sort of sensory in schools, and there really isn't most sensory research that's out there are three times a week, for an hour for 10 weeks, I've never seen a school-based occupational therapist have three hours a week with a student, that just isn't going to happen. On the flip side, you're saying, well, that kids now miss three hours of education every week, who would agree to that?
Beverly Moskowitz
So also, Jayson, our charge when we go into schools is to promote function and participation, their research, and if you look up, Helen Pola Tyco, there's a whole bunch of other articles out there, sensory integration, and I got certified way back in the 70s, the original Southern California sensory integration tests, I got certified and all that. But the research on using sensory integration therapy has not shown that it facilitates function. That's a problem. That's what we're supposed to be doing in school, and you're gonna tell me I'm doing all this swinging, it's not promoting that child's ability to actually work within the classroom? No, it's not. Does it impact the quality of life? All that's valuable. But when we're in school, we really have to get down to how can I give that child the movement experiences I read today on Facebook about how do I stop a child from tilting his chair back? Well, don't stop him from fooling. But think of a safer chair, because the child's telling you, he needs that movement. So that's the kind of sensory stuff that we can do in school, we should not be doing sensory integration therapy. Now, Lucy Jane Miller, at the star Institute is doing research on how to better measure the effectiveness of sensory treatment on function. Those are the things that we need to be measuring. Because when you administer, those SIP tests, and you go through all your fancy treatments, we administer those sub-tests, there's no significant difference.
Jayson Davies
Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, I know, that's going to continue to go on. And I know we need more research because there just hasn't I don't think there's been a sensory-based program that has been studied or researched using any sort of a school-based model. And until we get some sort of research where the sensory model can somehow be integrated into a school model, then I don't even think we can truly compare what could happen at a school versus what can happen in a clinic. There's a lot of research out there. We need more research in both sensory
Beverly Moskowitz
respectful, Jean Ayres, is it a she's like, whoa, brilliant, we are also indebted to the body of knowledge that she gave our profession. But as, as I read today, hey, listen, Facebook is awesome. And I resisted Facebook. Okay, not as long as I resisted podcasting, but I resisted Facebook. And then I discovered these wonderful discussion groups that OTs are having on Facebook. So there was something about the weighted vest today. And you know, how what's the protocol for a weighted vest is no research supporting weighted vest weighted blankets. Now, that's not to say, we haven't found the right variable to measure exactly. Cause we all know how nice it feels to get a nice hug. You know, when our children are upset how that is what they need. So we need to measure there are some neurochemicals we have to kind of hook up with some lab and make their something but the evidence isn't there right now. It's not there with sensory integration treatment in terms of translating into function, so keep your eye on the board. When you're in school, you are a major problem solver looking for ways to promote function?
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. Speaking of function, I think one thing that has evolved over the last 20 years is tiered intervention and RTI. And so I would love to know your experiences with RTI, obviously, you've been talking about how you push into the classroom already. So how have you used RTI over the years?
Beverly Moskowitz
By coming across as pushy? Because I guess I am? I don't know.
Jayson Davies
No, no, not at all. Not at all.
Beverly Moskowitz
No, I say that, jokingly, it always struck me as the right thing to do. So way back, even in the 90s, when they were having discussions about kids that were struggling regular ed kids, I would inject myself into the conversation out because I would say, "Listen, it's such a better use of me now to help him to help anybody, then to then wait until he gets you to know, you have to make a referral." Now you commit me to do an evaluation. Now I've got to write score tests and write a report and go to a meeting. "Listen, if you let me come into your classrooms and speak with you now. And, and actually, I bet there are a few other kids who I could hope also, we can intercept these at-risk kids". I have this feeling way back when before RTI ever became an acronym. That's the way I wanted to practice. And apparently, I convinced enough people that that's how I built my practice and my reputation, I was somebody, I am not standing on ceremony, I'm going to help everybody, you can talk to me in the hallway, you can invite me into your classroom. Now, we have, you know, more bureaucracy now. And I get that too. But I always was pushing limits to see how much I would be able to avoid having to get into a lot of red tapes. So I sent you my message, here's what I want to do. I'm never gonna lie, I'm never gonna hide it from you, this is what I want to do. I want you to be okay with it. And they would say, okay, so sounds okay. So if that is something that sounds comfortable to you, if you feel like, you know what, I could see myself doing it, do it level with your administrators, I will share Iran handwriting clubs. And we call them handwriting clubs. They just happen to be facilitated by the OT, but we can call them OT, because if we call it OT, then we wouldn't need to have a referral. I don't want to do referral paperwork. It's not just being honest with you. We call it handwriting club.
Jayson Davies
It's true. It's true.
Beverly Moskowitz
Right? By running it by the administrators. Here's what I want to do. And they said, sounds fantastic. And then all those at-risk regular ed kids, who, you know, if you just had a few sessions with them, you tweaked a few things, gave them some adapted writing paper, taught them the rules on letter size, I'll get to that. You can make a difference. And so I was playing a kind of play fast and loose. I was making my own rules up as we went along. They were there were no really strict boundaries.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And you know, sometimes I will say that it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission. Sometimes, you know, you go into a classroom, you get something working with one teacher, that one teacher, it's amazing how three other teachers come and ask for your help because you kind of stuck your neck, your neck out there, and got a group going with that one teacher. So I absolutely am right on the same page with you when it comes to RTI.
Beverly Moskowitz
Absolutely, I think that should be our motto.
Jayson Davies
Let's do it. Alright, so what have you found to be the most helpful when attempting to collaborate with teachers? We obviously just kind of talked about how you collaborated with the principal, but what about the teachers?
Beverly Moskowitz
Okay, so you got to be real, you got to connect with them. And you have to recognize they're professionals. They went to school thinking, you know, whether they're new grads, or they've been doing it for a really long time that they would be teaching, not sitting in the hallway themselves collecting data all day. They have so many layers upon layers of mandates. Differentiated Instruction is the right thing to do. Just the same. They are lesson planning for different groups for their classroom every single day. And they have to like juggling their and making sure that everybody is active. If you go into the classrooms, and they perceive that you're about to give them more to do. They're going to say, I'm good, thanks. Okay. And believe it or not, I did that because I have so many ideas to share, and they basically say, Okay, thanks, you know, any, okay, so yes, I have been known to overwhelm people, but I learned that the best use of my time is to listen to them to recognize we are on their turf. It is not about you and me. And I said that earlier, it's you know, listen, I'm getting plenty of attention right now. It really has that mindset. Well, you are there to serve in school, you are on teacher turf, you have to learn what they need to cover. So have those real conversations with them. Tell me about your curriculum. How are you assessing learning? What's your homework look like? How do you set up your assignments? Your room? May I play around? I've been known to Fench way a few rooms because I do that. But I asked permission first. I do before I forgiveness because I am moving furniture. But I also move furniture around I'm going to bring things I bring them gifts. It's a joke. It's not like I'm buying them an outfit or anything. But I will adapt the test for them. Can I try my hand at your test? Because I saw their test. It's visually overwhelming. Maybe I could make it much more linear on an adapted writing paper? Or could I move some desks around so that the child who really needs to be front and center it doesn't have to crane his neck to see the board moving away from the radiator because it makes a whole bunch of noise? That's a gift, you give a teacher. So if you want to have those connections with the teachers, let them know that personally, you come in peace. I say that to them. I'm not a spy. I'm not here to judge, right? I'm here to help. How can I help you? Yeah, I want to learn with you. And honestly, that kind of attitude will go such a long way in getting those teachers to open up. The ones that are overwhelmed. They have a whole new curriculum, they're in a master's program, their kids are sick at home, everybody has a life. They'll share that with you. And you'll say no worries, would you like me to create that test for you or to work in this in this center with you? They will be so grateful. So I don't know being human?
Jayson Davies
Yeah, you know, and some of my best experiences of school as a school-based OT come from working with the teachers. You know, we have great experiences when we work directly with the students, but you get such reward from working with the teachers as well. And also knowing that your knowledge of one teacher could potentially help 30 kids this year, and then even more kids throughout the lifetime of that teacher once they understand something so absolutely. So I want to dive into the Size Matters handwriting program that you so cleverly created. But I think this question might actually lead you there. I mentioned how I love working with teachers and that can be rewarding. What has been a super rewarding part of being a school-based OT for you?
Beverly Moskowitz
Wow. Well, what has been so rewarding of the connections, the connections with the teachers, the kids, to have people excited to see you in the hallway, I created a little gizmo we called it the budget, there was a device that attached to it, legs of a desk that kids would bounce on. This is before the bouncy band I had a model that I put in 30 seconds I had installed in their principal with saying the bed I need six more. And that room went on every desk in the classroom and the kids would stop me in the hall and say, Can I have one of those things? And I'm like, Who are you? I don't even know these kids. But I love that they recognize that I brought something into the classroom and they wanted it. I love it. The teachers sought me out they really only wanted my opinion that I had said something done something that stayed with them. And so that feels really good. And there's one story I wanted to share. And I'm sure you all have stories like this right now. But how do I know that I was on the right track? How do I know this inclusion part was going to be working very early in the beginning in the late 80s, early 90s. A parent knew her right she was having her severely cognitively impaired daughter in regular kindergarten cutest little thing, but she had Angel mints anyone have angel has to do with Angel mints you're pretty impaired. But those children were lovely to her daughter. And I sat in a meeting with his parents said for the very first time. She got to go to a birthday party. Her daughter was invited to a birthday party. And she was able to sit with the adults because the kids played with her daughter. And if I tell you that story is like 40 years old now. It still makes me cry. That's the right we're doing the right thing. It's the right thing to do.
Jayson Davies
Oh, yeah, I've had a pair of brothers with Angel mints and you're right very, they need a lot of support. And so that's so kind to some other students, some other kids were able to come and support. You know, I think it takes a certain type of person, to be an occupational therapist, to be an educator to be anyone that's going to come in and work with kids, especially kids with disabilities. And I think all of us as occupational therapists, working for those schools, we kind of have that heart that it requires, you know, the special education teachers have it too. And so
Beverly Moskowitz
not our kids, whether they ever grow up to be teachers or OTs, we want our kids to grow up to be kind. Yeah, to be able to see somebody with a disability and not be afraid of them to occlude them to talk to them.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely.
Beverly Moskowitz
You make such a difference to that parent. Maybe the child doesn't even know what that parent is most grateful for.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. All right. Well, I know a lot of people know you for the size matters handwriting program, this program has helped 1000s if not more, tons of 1000s of kids and adults around the world to understand. So I want to ask you starting what is the size matters handwriting program?
Beverly Moskowitz
So as I said to you, way back when we could play around a lot. And I was getting all these handwriting referrals. And doing everything I had ever learned should be impactful. I'm working on my core strength by enhancing manipulation skills, perceptual skills, so they had done those assessments and the kids did really poorly. And using the prevailing handwriting program out there. And I'm not making a difference. I'm not nobody is any better. They're still printing the same way. This probably like 25 years ago, I started to play around with variables I thought might have more impact. And that's what I discovered that when I focused on letter size, the kids caught on really quickly to that that was really, you know, touching here. And what started to happen if you were have taken my course I tell this story. The special ed kids became the neatest printers in the school. And you know, it was always hanging there work in the hallway, not go by my classrooms, and it looks so beautiful. And the regular classrooms were horrible. So I asked a first-grade teacher, friend, could I try something in her classroom, I wondered if these ideas would translate. And I gave a 20-minute half-hour lesson in her room in first grade. That's it. Later the day, she flagged me down but you walked out of the room and everybody's printing changed. One parent later in the week, said to me, that the teacher caught up with me and said, a parent called to confess that she scolded her daughter for being so irresponsible, bringing home somebody else's assignment book. I was there once. So I had the sense that I thought I'm onto something. And I started to develop it and play with it a little bit. And then I went back to school for my doctorate. And I wanted to know what everybody is doing about handwriting in the country and in the world. So you're welcome to read my doctoral work. And I stayed connected with Temple University because I wanted to test my premises. And that's when we did and I'll, I'll get into the research, we designed the largest research study ever done on handwriting. And my methods were proven effective change scores were significant at a point, 001 level. That is massive.
Jayson Davies
Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Actually, go ahead and explain that research a little bit. How was that put together? We had Beth Pfeiffer on the podcast not too long ago. And she talked about the program is this that the researcher was different research?
Beverly Moskowitz
So Beth, Beth Pfeiffer, everybody checks her out. She is beyond awesome. She's faculty at Temple University in Philadelphia. So after I finished my doctoral program, I did stay connected with Temple and I said to them, if you ever have a student looking for a study, bring it on. Later to doctoral candidates came forward. And in what turned out to be this first study. Now at this point, I was traveling around the country teaching and I would always say if you're interested in being a site for research, let me know, we had around 678 therapists say, Yeah, I want to participate. Let me share with you when you read the literature and you see the size of a study, be impressed. It doesn't matter how small definitely if it's big, you have to jump through such hoops to get to that point where your school is approved for participating in a research study. You got to write the IRB, which if you've done that, it's a pretty lengthy thing. By the time we finally were ready to launch, the eight schools dwindled to six to five. Ultimately, we had two school districts. That said, three grades, kindergarten first and second. Control and intervention in both grades. Over 200 students, three different standardized or criterion-referenced assessments. We had to our scores We had 15 scores in six different states because there were 1800 assessments to score and they had to sit through training videos and score samples and earn a reliability coefficient of 0.8, to qualify, all of that. I wrote, has anybody ever wants to replicate by study, a Fidelity manual, so exactly what was happening on day 15 In first grade, and Massachusetts, was happening in day 15, in first grade in New York, and so on. It was an eight weeks study, they did it every day. And again, being impressed with research makes it into literature, these people work hard. You need to get in, I needed to get out because you're gonna have to school. So it was a very brief period of time. That study was Beth was the lead investigator on it. Tammy, Mary, and Jillian Ray were also part of that study that got published in the OT Journal of Research in 2015. The second study was the one that you get Cheryl Zylstra. Cheryl was a doctoral candidate temple. And she did the second study with Beth Pfeiffer again, hers was smaller, but they correlated handwriting also with reading. So it kind of reading Facebook, you might think that's my it's like Wikipedia. Every it's Facebook. I don't know is that horrible? But I wonder what some of you are talking about so yeah, there was this advocate who wants technology, no handwriting. And I said, Well, what do they want the kids to learn how to read this. Handwriting supports reading technology does not problem-solving creativity. So anyway, Cheryl's study showed a very strong correlation between handwriting, and letter-sound and letter name recognition. That was that study, we had another study off, and Leigh and Leigh Akasha. And I hope that you're watching, she wanted to look at the self-monitoring component that we're very proud of. One of the unique features of size matters is that kids can score themselves. If they want to score each other, they can score each other do some peer monitoring, there is evidence on the benefit of giving kids that power. So she went to church to see whether there you know how powerful that is. So she looked at our second graders and wanted to ascertain the benefit of the self-monitoring, they rolled dice to determine practice. How silly is that? But we got to defer to it. They roll a five they're gonna make five-star worthy. Yeah, there's no they wrote one. We only have to make one but better Three Star Wars a year, you're making another one. The kids love that. And next thing, you know, kids are like, give me a six. Wait, you know, this game works, right? They love the power. They love the power so there's the buy-in. We had another study, this was thrilling. This was at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. I didn't even know it was happening to I saw it published in a journal I do my agents, they did a comparison of effect sizes of nine different handwriting programs. Some of those maybe I saw that one among your favorites. And they conclude when it came to legibility Size Matters are best. Now they did conclude we're not as good for speed
Jayson Davies
speed. I was gonna ask you about that. What's your reasoning on that? And do you think it's a problem?
Beverly Moskowitz
So that was funny. In that very first research study that kids did measurably slower, the intervention group kids were measurably slower when it came to writing. That said, the site managers in both locations said to me, that was so funny. When it came time for the post-testing. The kids were so careful to touch their pencils to the writing lines in all the right places that they were slower. Listen, we're looking for a longitudinal study. Does anybody out there want to do that? I believe. Yeah. So this was only an eight-week study. If we had a semester, the year I think you're gonna see it even out but okay, you have to report. That's what happened. Yeah. And here's my response. If the kids are writing fast, but you can't read it. Who cares?
Jayson Davies
Yeah. And to that point, what is one of the main things I think teachers say, in a classroom, they, their kids slow down, whether kids running across the room, or if they're going through math problems too fast if they're writing too fast. I mean, to your point, everything we need to slow down in a lot of time for kids, you know, reading to, they're not going to comprehend what they're reading, if they're going through it at the pace of a jackrabbit. They need to slow down and do the same thing with writing and everything else. I agree.
Beverly Moskowitz
In the beginning, let's get it right, and as you develop that automaticity? Yeah, the speeds gonna come.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. Alright, what are the main cornerstones that you would say the Size Matters Handwriting Program is based on, obviously, size, it's in the name. But are there one, two, maybe even three other like Cornerstone blocks of information that you really focus on?
Beverly Moskowitz
So yeah, letter size is the biggie. But Size Matters is very responsive to the realities in school, you have to empower kids and these kids. First of all, if the kids have been on your caseload for a while, a few years, they're not happy about it. They want to, you know, there's something about always having to go to therapy, it makes them feel like there's something very wrong with them. We want we don't want that messaging, this program works quickly. It's amazing. If you're not using size matters yet, I'm going to suggest it is in your future, because I do believe it's the future, because it works so easily. Once you correct errors in letter size. That's what makes an immediate difference in the consistency, and therefore the readability of the page. And it is so easy to teach because there are only three sizes in the manuscript. So I can't undervalue that when you look at format, every other program is focusing on form, there are 62 of those your uppercase or lowercase numbers. And individually, if you looked at that your kids writing letter one that you could figure out what those letters are. It's in the context of the whole that it's a mess. And that's how you know it's not about form. It's also not about a workbook. So Size Matters is a concept-driven approach, I often say that you can get started right away with your knowledge alone, you don't need any material. Now we haven't here to make your own can make it faster, make it easier to use. But if you don't have anything, you can get started just by teaching the concepts that make it affordable for all those districts that have budgetary issues. And who doesn't? You can get started right away, just using your concepts. I also share with you stuff that you can make, that's the kind of therapist I am. I mean, we have stuff that's beautiful, and you know, nicely finished. But I didn't have stuff when I was figuring this out, I made stuff. And I'm going to share with you how you can make your make stuff to share in your classrooms. It's embeddable across the curriculum, that's another thing that no other program can say. Because it's not about 15 minutes of practice in a workbook a week, that's not going to get you anywhere. You have to have concepts and strategies that are that remind kids to think handwriting letter-size during science, social studies, they're writing word problems in math. And it can be as simple as just having the teacher walk around with dice. When the kids hear the dice, their ears perk up, because they know, at any moment, the teacher could stop by and say, Hey, Beth, a veteran is a star worthy. So in so many ways, it is a realistic program. And I'm not done with the research. We just finished a study up in Florida. That was lovely. They're pursuing publication there that talked about how teachers feel about bringing size matters into their classroom, what the perception is, we had another study that finished in I want to say Norristown, Pennsylvania, with kids on the spectrum. We have another study, listen, there's more and more, I just say bring it on, I am going to be the most heavily researched program out there. That's how confident we are.
Jayson Davies
That's great.
Beverly Moskowitz
How well it goes.
Jayson Davies
that's great. We need more research in the field of occupational therapy. So yes, go for it as much as you can. So you go around the world, or at least around you talked about you might be going around the world soon. But you definitely go around the country and teach others. What is your hope for the occupational therapist sitting at the middle desk in the third row of your training? What is your hope that they're going back to their school? And do
Beverly Moskowitz
I want them to get excited? As I said, I'm doing this for a long time. 46 years, and I'm still excited. I am odd when I go to conferences, and I hope that all of you join your state organization, join AOTA go to conferences. Our profession continues to evolve. We're so very grounded in the way we approach situations. I said to somebody today, I don't think there's ever a problem that OT can solve. We just haven't figured it out yet. But give it to an OT because we are so creative. There are so many different avenues to go in there. So I want that therapists coming to my conferences to feel my energy to feel excitement about this awesome profession. In that you have spent a lot of time and money becoming a part of the possibilities are endless, but do protect this wonderful profession. Because there are people, professions, I should say, who are jumping on the bandwagon. And we kind of have taken our eye off the ball by not joining our state organizations, people say I don't have to, so I'm going to save the dues. Listen, I call it the cost to do a business, recreation therapists are doing ADLs they are doing handwriting they're doing, you know, they say they own recreation. Actually, recreation was always part of an... So no, Pts are being more functional. They're recognizing that just standing or walking is not nearly as important as when you have to put your bookbag in the locker. So they're being more function-oriented. And the ABA therapists don't get me started. They have somehow moved to the front of the desk, the conference table, and they're telling us how to practice and they are not science-based. They're not evidence-based. How did that happen? Well, how it happened is that OT stop representing, and when you see a practice infringement, and you want to nip it in the bud, the lobbyists, the legislators in your state say well, how many people in your state? Are you representing how many people feel that way? And the sad fact is that only around 10% of practicing OTs are members of their state organization. So they say, Well, how do we know that the other 90% exists is important. That's a point. By contrast, recreation therapists are 90% of those practicing are members of their state organization.
Jayson Davies
Oh my gosh.
Beverly Moskowitz
I would word for word from the OT practice framework here in Pennsylvania and drop it into their licensure bill. And amazingly, there was somebody on Capitol Hill in Harrisburg, capital, Pennsylvania, who caught it. And so you can't say that, that's what OTs do. It is happening in your state. So listen, you don't have to be politically active unless you want to be. But you must pay your dues to protect your future.
Jayson Davies
Yeah,
Beverly Moskowitz
and then go to the conference be awed by the many ways that your colleagues have taken this body of knowledge and are applying it. That's thrilling.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. All right, great. Well, I want to leave a little bit of time for some Q&A, because we do have about 50 to 60 people here with us tonight. But I do want to give you an opportunity to kind of transition because you're working on a new project. Obviously, you have the manuscript to size matters, handwriting program. That works all on uppercase, lowercase manuscript, but I think you're working on something in the future, right? Go ahead and explain that.
Beverly Moskowitz
So thanks, Jayson. This is a labor of love. For years, people have asked me for a Spanish edition, a cursive edition. Personally, I don't speak Spanish. So that was a big stumbling block right there. I didn't even know how I would attempt that. And in terms of cursive, I wasn't inspired. I didn't know how I was going to make my approach different, better than anybody else's. And then two summers ago, when the country looks like, like what happened, you know, we're like, can't we all just get along? I got it. I got my inspiration. Unlike the manuscript book, which is there's only one workbook and it practices a single letter at a time teachers are instructed, open up their literacy, social studies, pluck out words that are meaningful to your curriculum. That's what you want to write. Unlike a manuscript, cursive is all about connectedness. So I actually needed to identify words for kids to be writing. And, the words I chose to use were words of kindness, participation, inclusion, disability awareness, things that I think are so sorely missing nowadays, what happened to civility, and us learning how to have a polite discourse. So I have an advisory board. And we have built on the Size Matters principles, there's now a size four-letter. There are lots of motor learning opportunities where you practice making the movements of the letters. And then there are narratives and the narratives are written at grade level, second, third grade on these themes of acceptance and awareness and fineness with discussion questions. The words that the kids practice writing are extracted from the narrative. So they're a little contrived, because I've always tried to use the featured letter of the page on it, but the kids practice writing words that are meaningful reading words and having these lovely discussions about how they might include somebody who does Just make it simple. Suppose your arm is in a cast, how are you going to write. So it doesn't have to always be heavy-handed, but it gets the kids thinking about the challenges that are out there. So that's part of the beauty of this book, I will share too. It's illustrated by children. Beyond proud of that my own son did illustrate the cover. So it's dedicated to him. And I can just be a little bit personal here, he has a traumatic brain injury. So he qualifies as an artist in this book, but all of the children are exceptional. And the artwork is exciting, and I'm so so honored at the opportunity to celebrate these talented children. And then that's not all, that's the lowercase pages. I wanted to be authentic when it came to the uppercase pages. And to be authentic, you want to have a proper noun, which is a person place, or thing. I chose places because these are themes that are relevant, every place everywhere in the world. And so the uppercase pages actually have maps, different parts of the US different parts of the world, Europe and Africa and Russia, and China and Southeast Asia. And honest to goodness, I think this book is going to be a keeper because you're gonna love it. You're, I'm planning a vacation, I had, like, oh, well, I got a book as a map of them. It's a beautiful book, we have been working on a year and a half my advisory board, and I had a seven-hour meeting last Friday because they are so dedicated to this book, I believe that you'll love it, you will keep it you'll treasure it. And your kids are going to learn how to write in cursive, and how to be part of a kinder, more humane society.
Jayson Davies
I love that because I think as occupational therapists, sometimes we forget that, especially in the schools that were part of the education, and the idea that you're putting that geography in there. And you're using principles from the curriculum, and you're and you're throwing that in there. That's so important. So I think that's fantastic. Awesome. Looking forward to
Beverly Moskowitz
Worthing that the teacher amongst us suggested that we have additional STEM activities, which has now been expanded to steam science, technology, engineering, art, and math. So for those teachers that want to build a curriculum, there's a whole bunch of ways to expand on the lessons here are things to learn about, for instance, the AP age talks about accommodations and adaptations. And I think we talked about Temple Grandin under the steam pages Google her we tell the kids pretty, pretty fascinating lady, so much learning in this book, I'm just so as I said, so proud, so proud. This is a labor of love. I hope that you are interested in seeing it.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. And you know, some people are already talking about just about the size matters handwriting program. So I'm going to actually bring up our first question from Jennifer, I can bring that right up here on the screen for us, and says, I've really enjoyed this. Thank you. If I would like to start the size matters in my schools, where should I start?
Beverly Moskowitz
So, Jennifer, there are a few ways to get started. You want to learn more about it. And to learn we have a so my website is called realotsolutions.com, you can take the three parts self-study webinar series, I am an approved provider of continuing through AOTA so you earn points seven CEUs. That's a self-study, or teaching a two-day live course in February on East Coast time. I should probably know those dates and I don't. But depending on where you are, you could do that in April. I'm teaching a two-day course on West Coast time, two days. Day one is the intro course, it's comparable to the webinar series. If you take the webinar, you can just take day two, day two is a therapist certification course if you would like to be certified as an SMHP therapist, all you want to take the day two course. And I send you, I send you a gift. I'm going to send you your handbooks, your lab materials, scoring kits, a few little extra goodies in there, pre SMHP materials. So that would be a good way to start. Educate yourself. If you want to get a proposal for your school, I'd be honored, I'm happy to craft a proposal. I always say this is the beginning of a conversation. I want to learn more about you. Whenever schools districts adopt size matters, they get a free hour of me I'm going to do training on the use of the materials. If you want a CEU course I'm happy to bring that also to you. But I always want to learn what is your budget what I don't want to tell you to get something if you can't afford this. Don't get it. We'll make it we'll make something that's going to be okay. Hey, maybe next year, you'll buy the MRB, the magnetic rec to square board. But in the meantime, a dental practice scoreboard, it's a big whiteboard that has lines on pink, a yellow-blue marker is very cute. Or you can make lines on your board and use pink, yellow and blue, a dry erase board. Anyway, so I'm going to share with you how you can get started, whether you want to propose, whether you want to pilot it. Another option, pilot studies, I can help you design one of those, I always suggest asking your administrator, that's okay as parents to have that there. Okay, teachers, you want to control in treatment. So you can say that differences and take pictures before and after? Because a picture is worth 10,000 words, I promise you. You're going to say, as I still say, wait, that was the beginning of the session? The end of the same session?
Jayson Davies
Wow. Yep. All right. This next question kind of leads into where I think you're going anyway. So what are some of your methods for providing push-in services with the Size Matters program? Would you provide instruction to the entire class?
Beverly Moskowitz
Yeah, yeah.
Jayson Davies
So how would you pilot that? Or how would you pilot that then for the administrator to see?
Beverly Moskowitz
So So pilot studies can be as detailed as you want, or as long as you want, or as short as you want. We've done four-week pilot studies, three-month pilot studies, full-year pilot studies. So first, it's going to start with a conversation about what do you envision? What permissions? Do you need parent administrators? And how many classes do you want? How many, you know, grades per classroom Do you want so let's flesh all that out. We talk about what the training is going to be like. And I like to empower you as I want you to be trained and you get me you get to talk to me, I'm happy to talk to you. So shy, I know it's gonna be hard. I'm going to support you make sure that you feel like you know how to launch it. So you want to get bit collects baseline samples, which could be as simple as the kids writing the alphabet, and a grade-level sentence, date it, initial it, so maybe, you know, we keep it a little bit blindly, we don't want to or your number. And so you really don't know who the child is. And then at the end of whatever interval, you decide, you want that pilot period to be the child's gonna write the alphabet, upper and lowercase, and that same grade level sentence and you're going to compare it, I always suggest buying one of those flipbooks, like at Staples Office Depot that has those proposal sheets in it, and you assemble it. When you present that to your administrators, I promise you they're going to go they will.
Jayson Davies
Yeah, I've seen that happen. I've done something similar. And sure enough, the next year, the principal set aside money in their budget to get a handwriting program. And so definitely it does work. I wanted to go a little bit further on Caitlin's question. She asked about doing this in the classroom, I want to be asked you a question that I don't know everyone's a little bit different. What does it require of you to do with the teacher? Do you think that we can just walk in and do this on our own? Or do we need to plan with the teacher ahead of time, collaborate a little bit before we go in, and do an entire classroom program?
Beverly Moskowitz
Well, you always want to collaborate with teachers, because I'll go back to where I said they were on their turf. I'm Yes, I'm there to support you. I certainly don't want to be pushy. So first, when I asked, may I come in? Would you like a policy? Would you be receptive to it? And you might have teachers say to you, yes, not this year, I'm overwhelmed, ah, blah, blah, blah, whatever is going on in their life, and they love you. So first get you to know, you have that relationship, that rapport building wasn't that like OT one on one, establish rapport, you want to have that rapport? And you want to ask for teachers, what would be a good time to come in? They may say I am, we are so far behind in our math curriculum that I need to add extra time on that. So listen, life, find out when that block of time is, and ask for some regularity. So if this is the block of time, can I come in every day? Can I come in three days a week? Do I have 20 minutes, you can get a lot done in 20 minutes if you're organized. So there are lots of questions to ask an answer before you launch a pilot study. And that said, I tell you this from experience, had a therapist love, love, love size matters. They have I want to do a research study. And by administrators, my everybody's ready to go and I'm like, I think that this is going a little bit too fast. But she was so enthusiastic. The bottom line was we didn't ask enough questions. And when the study was finishing, it was the end of the school year. And it was field day. Well, who wanted to be in class doing a post-test when it was Field Day. And even when they sat there, they were really distracted. So we didn't realize it was gonna be a vacation overlapping that the time here. Ultimately, all that hard work ended up not being a good study. So
Jayson Davies
yeah, we always got to look at the calendar. All right, we'll do one last question. This is kind of a question about your course, you already explained this a little bit, but just a little confusion on the difference between the three-part self-study and the two-day course.
Beverly Moskowitz
Ah, okay. So if you want to become a certified SMHP therapist, that's an intermediate level course, you have to take a qualifying prerequisite an intro course, to be eligible for the certification course. Now, if you've followed me at all, you may know that I have taught our long courses on ot.com, a marvelous site, those do not count as qualifying prerequisites, look at them as like a little preview a little supplement to what you're learning, but it's not sufficient in itself, still, definitely, you know, take them they you get to see you if you want to do that. The three parts of self-study, and that day one course essentially have the same content. Here's the difference. The self-study, self study your, your pacing yourself, you get to backup, if you want to listen to me again, you can watch it a two in the morning, if that's the only time that you're free, you do have to take a post-test. As I said, I am AOTA approved provider. And when you do distance education, there has to be proof that you paid attention that you took the course you just go to movies. So of there are three different post-tests that you have to take, I send you the links to the slideshow, the handout, the post-test link, and the course evaluation link, you have to download the handout. I talked about the lab materials, you don't actually do them. In the live course, it's me in real-time. I'm going to send you the handbooks, I'm going to send you the lab materials because I believe in fun, so we're gonna have fun together doing center time activity, you get to ask questions in real-time, the day one course is six hours versus the three-part webinar, which is seven hours. So there's a supplemental course, if you want that extra stuff that I just couldn't have you sitting there for seven hours, I can't sit there for seven hours either. So there's a little less content, but essentially the same content in the day one course as the self-study. Now we do the lab materials in the day one course, which we use the next day during the certification course. So it's fun. Because you get to play the games, a lot of games that you play in certification. If you took the self-study, you can still play the games, when you're just not gonna have the materials to submit one of your samples. But you're certainly welcome. A little bit of a budgetary issue difference too. So you get to decide this, this works for my budget, this works for my time. And if you can't take two days off in a row, I'm gonna tell you to take the self-study. And then just join me for the live course.
Jayson Davies
There you go.
Beverly Moskowitz
Get a certification.
Jayson Davies
All right. Well, Dr. Beverly Moskowitz, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure. We've been going on for about an hour, almost an hour and 15 minutes, we've had 50 to 60 people here consistently, just loving what you're saying. Thank you. Everyone who has joined us this afternoon. Really appreciate you being here. And I look forward to staying in touch with you, Beverly, and maybe taking that course alongside some of the people that are here today. So maybe.
Beverly Moskowitz
Listen, this has been hard for me to read the chat and like, look at you all to see that. But I am, you inform me and I would be honored. If you wanted to write to me, bev@realotsolutions.com. I would love to problem-solve with you. Certainly, if its size matters. I'm thrilled about that pick-up anything in school-based practice. So please don't hesitate. I always hope that above all that people feel connected. Sometimes we are so isolated out there. And I want people to know that I am. It would be my pleasure. You honor me by reaching out and allowing me to learn about your life and your practice.
Jayson Davies
Absolutely. Everyone takes that and uses it because it's very amazing to be able to collaborate with another therapist, just to get a little bit of event really appreciate you offering your assistance there. So thank you, Beverly. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. Really appreciate you and we'll see you next time on the OT schoolhouse podcast. Take care. Bye.
Beverly Moskowitz
Bye, everyone.
Jayson Davies
All right, that was such a fun episode. I'm excited about that. When I'm excited to keep in touch with Dr. Moskowitz, she just has so much going on. Her passion for occupational therapy is off the charts. I love everything that she has to say. And I'm excited to keep in touch with her. Maybe we'll have her back on the podcast again in the future. Thank you. Huge shout out to Beverly for coming on taking the time to do this for us. And I really appreciate you for being here. Whether this was your commute your workout, your ADLs for the day just listening to a podcast, whatever it might have been. Thank you so much for being here and I will see you again on the very next episode of the OT Schoolhouse podcast. Take care. Bye.
Amazing Narrator
Thank you for listening to the OT Schoolhouse podcast. For more ways to help you and your students succeed right now. Head on over to otschoolhouse.com. Until next time, class is dismissed.
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