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Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts . Welcome to the show notes for Episode 164 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Have you ever wondered how integrating reflex patterns could enhance your approach to therapy? Join us as we discuss the world of reflex integration with Kokeb McDonald. She shares her journey and discusses the importance of understanding the root causes of developmental delays. You will learn about the MNRI program and how Kokeb has adapted its principles to create effective treatment plans within occupational therapy practice.  This episode offers valuable insights into how addressing reflexes can lead to significant improvements in motor skills, attention, and overall functioning. Tune in to learn more! Listen now to learn the following objectives: Learners will be able to understand what reflex integration entails and its role in school-based OT Learners will understand the importance of reflex integration in occupational therapy, particularly in addressing self-regulation and sensory processing issues. Learners will understand how movement activities can be integrated into classroom settings to support reflex integration and improve student outcomes. Guests Bio Kokeb Girma McDonald is a pediatric occupational therapist and the founder of the Reflex Integration Through Play™️ (RITP) program. She is the mother of two wonderful children, and has extensive professional experience working with young people of all ages and backgrounds since 2004.  Recognizing the need for practical and universally accessible primary motor reflex integration programs, Kokeb created the Integrating Primitive Reflexes Through Play and Exercise book series and the Reflex Integration Through Play™️ method to empower and reassure frustrated parents, and to offer fellow professionals a tool to expand their clinical reach. Quotes “ Think of it as, building a house…if the foundation is messed up, cracked, anything you build on top of it will be faulty. Yes. It will stand, but you're going to be fixing things all the time.”  -Kokeb McDonald, OTR/L “At the end of the day, it's all interconnected…When you impact one thing, it impacts another.”  -Jayson Davies, M.A., OTR/L “Reflex patterns are a response to sensory input.”  -Kokeb McDonald, OTR/L “I learned that it's important, especially for OTs, to go back and review anatomy and movement patterns, like the functional movement pattern because we've forgotten what that looked like, what functional movement pattern looks like, what is the most efficient movement for this specific task.” -Kokeb McDonald, OTR/L “All of a sudden you start to see results in other areas as well. Things start to come together…and the client doesn't have to struggle as much.” -Kokeb McDonald, OTR/L Resources 👉 MNRI 👉 Choose wisely AOTA  👉  Integrating Reflexes Application  👉 Integrating Reflexes  👉 Integrating Reflexes Game 👉 Integrating Reflexes Certification    👉 Integrating Reflexes Books *Don’t forget to use promo code otschoolhouse to save 10% on your purchase. Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript.   Jayson Davies     Hey there, and welcome back to the OT schoolhouse podcast, where education is an essential occupation. Today, we're taking on a topic that has been stirring up much debate in the school based ot world, reflex integration. It's a concept that's gaining traction, but it also raises questions like, How does reflex integration fit into school based occupational therapy, and more importantly, how do we ensure it supports meaningful occupation based outcomes for the students we serve to help us unpack this. I'm excited to welcome Kokeb McDonald, a seasoned occupational therapist and creator of the reflex integration through play program, over at integrating reflexes.com With nearly two decades of experience and a passion for empowering ot practitioners and parents alike, cocoa has developed practical strategies that make reflex integration accessible, effective and yes. Occupation focused in this episode, we'll address the controversy of using reflex integration in a school based setting. Then we'll shift into how you can integrate reflexes within your play based interventions in a way that respects your time, your expertise and your students goals. If you've ever wondered how, or even if reflex integration belongs in your practice, this is the episode for you. Kokeb, insights might just change the way you approach your next session. So settle in, and let's dive into our conversation with our OT colleague, kokeb McDonald    Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development. Now, to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Kokeb. Welcome to the OT school health podcast. How you doing today?     Kokeb McDonald     Great. Thank you for inviting me.     Jayson Davies     Absolutely. It has been a minute since we addressed reflex integration here on the podcast, I'm excited to have you on, especially because actually, the last person that we had on to talk about it wasn't an occupational therapist, so I'm excited or an OT practitioner in general. So I'm excited to get your point of view here, kind of your background into it, and how you implement it into ot practice. So this should be a fun one. Great. All right. Well, I want to kick it off by first asking you how you even kind of got into the world of reflex integration. You know, occupational therapy is a wide range world. There's so many different ways you can go, but you have really, kind of, I want to say, narrowed your focus to just reflex integration, but it's definitely an area that you now kind of specialize in. So I'd love to learn how you kind of got into that.    Kokeb McDonald     Great, yes, I started out from maybe 20, 2005 or so right after I became an occupational therapist, as I'm working on treatment planning, and I think I felt just stuck with my treatment planning, and felt like I'm working on specific activities, but not really figuring out the causes or the root causes of why certain kids are delayed in their development, and why am I doing this specific exercise? So I think I was researching a lot with one my co worker was an OT clinic. I was working for an OT clinic, and we found out in Poland at someone called maskadova, who's doing this program. This was before the svelana moskatova was the mnri program was here, and that's when I started taking the courses. It just made sense to me, and made sense the root causes of the development and how to even create a treatment plan. And I think that's what got me and when I put those treatment plans in my sessions the clients that I was working on, like task after task, like tying shoes, time shoes, or like handwriting, hold them, you know, the pencil grasp and focused on when I actually implemented these reflex patterns, like when I'm looking at it and I'm putting the treatment plan as part of the implementation, the kids start to doing really well. And it just made sense. It made sense that I fell in love with it.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and say that name of the program again. I've never heard of it as    Kokeb McDonald     MRI. It's moskatova method. Svetlana moskatova, she.    Jayson Davies     I've heard of the shorthand. I've never heard it all the way out, okay.    Kokeb McDonald     longer. Mnri is a longer one, but I just go with her name. I took several courses through her program, and then I start to implementing it as part of the OT I mean, it's done differently, and mnri, the process is different, so I start to implement it as part of OT process.    Jayson Davies     Well, yeah. I mean, it sounds like you've been on this, been working with Reflex integration for close to 20 years, about and now and and it's interesting because, I mean, I've been an occupational therapy practitioner Since 2012 is when I graduated. And I can say with pretty certainty that. In 2012 like primitive reflex. Reflex integration was not a common word, and that was in 2012 and you started, you know, almost a decade before that. And so it wasn't till, like, I feel like, around like 2018 maybe 2020 that we started to hear more about reflex integration. And so it's just really, it's really amazing that you kind of learned about this before it became kind of a trendy thing, which is very cool. And so it sounds like you've done a lot of training, and now you're kind of doing your own trainings, right?    Kokeb McDonald     Yes, yeah. So about 2019 it's when I first published my first book and creating a treatment plan that therapists can easily follow, especially if I was thinking OTs in mind, and I was thinking of a home program and parents, what are the activities that they can easily incorporate in the classroom, at our home, or in the clinic, with mnri, with other work? I mean, they're very effective as well. It's a very hands on work, and it's not as easily. You're not easily able to implement it in our session, because we have 30 minute session. We're do functional skills, and we're in the classroom. We're doing group session. The idea for me was like, How can I implement what I've learned, but for OTs and because we have to charge insurance, right? So we have to stay in our framework, but we can still do that. There is a very effective way, and play base is one way that we do with us, like reflex integration through play, and how to do it in a play based and more functional way. So I've been actually doing that for a long time, and when I start writing the book, though, I start to because, you know, I didn't tell you the story. It's because I injured myself and I couldn't see clients as much. So it became like, Okay, what am I going to do with all this knowledge? It became to like, I might as well create this treatment plan for other therapists to use or for parents to use. And ended up being, you know, I was able to share it so it created a snowball into what it is today.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you mentioned something really key there. A moment ago, you talked about how you really kind of adapted it to fit into the occupational therapy world. And I think that's important, and we're going to really dive into kind of how you did that, but I just want to touch on that fact alone, because we do see a lot of or at least I'm seeing a lot of different reflex integration programs out there on the web and whatnot, a lot of trainings, but a lot of times it doesn't have that occupation focus, and it's a lot about doing the exercises without putting it into the functional outlook and whatnot. It sounds like that's kind of what you've managed to do here, right?     Kokeb McDonald     Yes, yes. So for for OTs, we focus on activity, daily living, functional skills. So what do we focus on? Play place for kids, especially if you're focusing on pediatrics, even though adults do the same work as well, classroom engagement, social skills and sensory processing and modulation and regulation. And for therapists like, how can you, I mean, we talk about it more too, but as How can you address, or even when you start screening, how can you screen these motor patterns, these reflex patterns in your client's body doing play. Why is this child having a difficulty climbing the play structure? Or why is he hesitant? Why is he setting a certain way? Those kind of questions we constantly are looking at as OTs, and for a new ot can be very overwhelming. And no, I was very overwhelmed and not being able to, you know, where am I starting, right? So that was a big question for me. But when I looked at, when I learned these reflex patterns, it just outlined it. It gave me like a framework to follow that was really easy. And then the idea now, with with our certification program is like, Can we get a lot of OTs come and teach them exactly how I learned it? And then it's been exciting to see teaching them this framework and having them screen, having them be able to observe in a playground, in the classroom, walk in. Our goal is like, I want you to be able to go on a playground and observe a client and see what these patterns and then now you can create a treatment plan accordingly, and a play based way, like they're already, you know, triggering all these reflex pattern already. But how do you address it? How can you address it? And the way you already are doing and probably in a clinic, you just don't know what you're looking at, because sometimes they just don't know what they're looking at. And so we talk about that as well.    Jayson Davies     All right. Well, let's go ahead and actually, in a way, take a step back here. You know, because I sometimes, and I do I'm guilty of this too, is I assume that? P. People who are listening know what everything is, and that is not always the case. So I want to first ask you here, how do you explain reflex integration to someone who just kind of isn't familiar with it, whether it be an occupational therapist, occupational therapy assistant, or maybe even like a parent, what's like the easy way to understand reflex integration.    Kokeb McDonald     Okay, so the easiest way to explain it is to the for parents, I tell them, think of reflexes. Because we're in the bay area here a lot of tech people. So I tell them, like, think of a code. You know, it's like we are born with this reflex patterns in our body that are there for survival mechanism, and babies in the womb were born with all these reflex patterns, and it helps the baby survive for the first year and then supposed to integrate in the whole body so that more voluntary movement patterns in sensory processing and integration and learning and higher functioning level needs to happen. So think of these are codes that they are there. The child is coded, you know, and then it comes out. So each reflex has its own sensory trigger and it has its own motor response. So you can learn to find out what these all these reflexes are, patterns are and how they're influenced by sensory triggers, and then what their motor response look like. So that's one way that the therapist will learn, one of the things that would teach them. But when these motor reflex patterns, when they're stay active, because after a certain time they should say dormant, and more postural reflux or sensory processing, the child starts to learn the environment. They start to respond that should happen. But if that doesn't happen and it's improperly integrated or not integrated and their body, they start to interfere with motor skills, coordination, sensory processing, self regulation, attention, and the child, or even later on, adult, starts to get overwhelmed and start to have a lot of compensation. You know, ways out how to deal with the body as well. So I don't know if that is a longer way of explaining it, but that's that's in brief, that's how I explain it.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And let's go kind of a little bit deeper. Let's kind of talk to maybe someone who has a little bit more of that information and the medical background, per se, when it comes to talking about more the brain, the spinal cord and all that, are you able to kind of share a little bit about how the mechanisms within the body, I guess, how the reflex and reflex integration and retained reflexes, what's going on in the body with that, and how it impacts.    Kokeb McDonald     Yes. So the reflex, these primitive reflexes, are housed in the brainstem. So the brain stem is also considered like the reptilian brain. That's the most primitive part of the brain. That's one of the brain part that develops. So that's the first thing that develops. So that's where breathing, heart regulation, anything that we're not regulating intentionally as housed. So we have to know first that that's the first thing that needs to develop, and then after that is maybe the sensory regulation the midbrain and the cortical one will develop. So usually for a therapist, we get asked to come to work with a client, especially like school based is when a teacher or parents see a challenge in the child's attention, which is in the frontal cortex, right? So the last thing that develops, we usually are called when regulation or anything of you know before that needs to develop, which is the reflexes at the foundational level, right? So that's affected. And then we usually get asked when he can't attend. He can't sit still, he's not focusing on copy from the board, all those kind of reasons. That's when the therapists are called, and what it tends to happen traditionally, as we try to tackle that, okay, he can't catch a ball. Let's practice catching a ball. He can't write. Let's work on writing instead of what is it really going on that this child is falling behind? Because, yes, you can solve one thing, which is the writing, but then this child is going to be struggling 10 other things if we don't figure out the root cause. So with the therapist is that the idea is to learn to go back and the brain stem level and see, can we work on the foundation? So think of it as building a house like if the foundation is messed up as cracked anything you build on top of it will be faulty. Yes, it will stand, but you're going to be fixing things all the time, right? So you don't want a house like that. So you want to go back and build the foundation. So. Think of the foundation as you brain stem, and then you building everything that's up on top of us. So the great thing about creating a treatment plan that goes back to the foundation and making sure that you're not missing any hole is all of a sudden you start to see result in other areas as well. Things start to come together, which much easier and you don't have the the client doesn't have to struggle as much. And even as a therapist, you don't have to waste that much energy or time to work on the client, because by fixing on the foundation level, others, you know, even speech starts to improve, coordination, attention, parents will say like, oh, all of a sudden they're, you know, we're not fighting about homework anymore, right? So he's attending. He's more coordinated. Oh, he's becoming interested in sport, because your goal might be one thing, you know, but then he can start to see other improvements. Absolutely, you know, earlier you started down the path. And I want to come back to this now is, you know, there's reflex integration, and then there's also reflex integration that an occupational therapy practitioner might actually implement, and that's kind of what you've done here. And so I kind of, I know we can't go into full detail on this, but how do you start to connect in occupation, such as a specific piece of play or education on task behavior, whatever you might want to be, what might want it to be. How do you then connect that to specific reflexes, or specific unintegrated or integrated reflexes? I mean, I know it's an entire evaluation process, but what is some of those processes that go through your head? Or are there already some research that has kind of tied some of that together for us? Yes. So when you start to learn about these specific reflex we talk about sensory triggers and then how the body is influenced, which is the motor response, and some of them will have your response as well. For instance, the common one, one of the first book I wrote about, is the moral reflex. So the moral reflex actually is, can be a powerful reflex, because it influences the child and self regulation as well. Because what, as you know, if the reflex stays in and the body stays active, can create, like, the fight or flight response, like constantly on guard, the client will stay on guard in these when that happens, it's not like the child can stop it, because it's a reflex, right? So even with the name, you can tell, right? So they cannot wheel it away. Or it's not like, don't it's not a behavior thing. It's a primitive reflex which is housed in the brainstem level. So we have to really go back and address it if we seeing these patterns in the body. So once the therapist is starting to learn to assess and a client, so what you can start to see is like, Okay, whenever we with the sensory trigger, the child is having all these sense symptoms. So we have symptom checklist. For instance, we can look at any multiple symptoms we're looking at to see, can, you know, is the child getting car sick? Some of the symptoms for us, for instance, it can be like, hesitant to climbing up and down a certain playground can be one thing for them, and then easily startled. That can be another thing, auditory processing issue. They might melt down. They might have a hard time with sounds or and then all these kind of things that we're looking at, and then heart palpitation, ice bulging or like a sudden movement next to them might be threatening to them. So all these things that we're looking at, and we're also testing, we're screening, physically screening as well, to see and then we start addressing those so and that way, yes, one of the main things some OTs are asking the classroom is self regulation. And usually we do other things. We do the symptoms part, okay, let me teach you how to regulate. Let me teach you like the, you know, the cortical levels like, Okay, I'm gonna teach you how to not act that way. Or it could be a behavior thing. So, but then it's we were we really are not solving but my body constantly respond like this, whether I want it or not. I know in my head I get it, but I'm constantly on on guard, right? So you we didn't really solve it. So for us, it's like we do need more research. We do need more work. Even in our program, we're doing a research right now. We're gathering research and collecting data as well in our program, because I find it very necessary, especially for OTs. So yes, we do need to do that and improve in this area. That's like one way motor skills as well. There we have. We can look specifically on motor coordination and crossing midline. There's for everything. Can think of you. Can we have like a framework that you can start looking at to see, like, which one are we looking at? Right? So why can't we have kids who sit specifically on their heels, for instance, that is like a telltale sign of stnr, for instance, like they because they can't sit on 9090, degree, that OTs we look at in the classroom. So we keep saying, feet on the ground, they'll never solve that problem, right? So I can put an icon next to the table and the picture. I mean, we've all done that. At least I've done it's like, if I just point to him, you sit, but he his body doesn't work that way, right? So instead, we have to look back and be like, let me help you. Let your body actually function with efficiency.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I really like the way that you are talking about this, because you're definitely talking about it from an occupational perspective, and it kind of brings something to mind. And I just I this wasn't in the questions that I asked you. So bear with me here, because this comes straight from a OTA. They do. They're like, Choose Wisely campaign, and I'm sure you've probably seen this, and it says, don't use reflex integration programs for individuals with delayed primary motor reflexes without clear links to occupational outcomes. And so I guess my kind of question there is, is there ever a case where a primary motor reflex, whether it is integrated when it shouldn't be, or vice versa, doesn't necessarily impact occupation to the point where you say, You know what look this child still has the moral reflex, or this child still has another reflex, or they don't have a reflex, but it's not actually impacting them at this time. Does that ever come up? Or do you tend to see that typically, if they have a an integrated or unintegrated reflex, there typically is that occupational connection?    Kokeb McDonald     Well, what a child does is even with with what we're saying, with the statements like it's related to everything that the child does right, like, as it will be in his plane and being a social skill and classroom as well. I have not seen anything that did not connect to that that person's occupation, or can even be self regulation. I think the way I look at it is because I'm I'm looking at it from how we deliver the program or the intervention. My understanding from that article is like they're looking at the different reflex integration intervention that are out there like that are not typically, there's like on the table you're doing hand on, you know, maneuvering, and you really cannot bill for it as an OT work, because that's the thing I was trained on that too. Are they effective? Yes, effective, but that it's not ot based. So the question is not like, the question is now like, can this work or not? The question is like, how, how do OTs implement this? And what we do? I personally think OTs are, like, perfectly positioned to use this intervention, because now we see a lot of vision therapists are using it, physical therapists are using it. Chiropractors are using it. I mean, people are are going because they can't find enough OTs who who do this work. They're moving somewhere else. And OTs, we specialize in sensory integration and reflux integration. And sensory integration, for me, is combined. I do not separate them. Like reflux integration helps sensory integration and vice versa, like, you know, is, is like reflux patterns are, you know, a response to sensory input. So for me, actually, in my opinion, when I learned sensory integration when I first started, it was difficult for me to wrap my mind around it, until I learned reflex integration, because I now finally can visually see it. I can go in a classroom and and when a teacher, like for instance, I walked in in a classroom, like couple months ago, or like few weeks ago, whatever the child is putting anything and everything in his mouth, like rocks paper. They can't put anything on the, you know, the table, because they have to chase it's not safe. Okay. How do you under How do you explain that? So I quickly.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, so hold on. Hold on. I want to stop you there really quickly. And I want to continue this because I want to role play this, actually, because for me, if I see I'm not trained in reflex integration here, so for me, going into the classroom, things going into the mouth, I'm probably thinking some tactile, you know, wanting to get that tactile sensation in the mouth. Maybe some proprioception, potentially, that's kind of what I'm thinking. Maybe taste might be involved. But from the. Sensory perspective. That's what I'm thinking now, Susanne Smith, Rowley, Zoe Mayu, they can go way beyond that and go more, but that's what I'm thinking as an occupational therapist that is SIP trained, but not like, you know, to the max. But I'm excited now to hear or first of all, is that what you would see from a sensory and then how would you go beyond that?    Kokeb McDonald     Yes. So the first thing I will think is, like, I was assessing this job. I was observing with them, and then they were just concerned, because he has behavior and other things. He's like, see, look at this, you know, like, what is he doing? So what I did is I pulled them quickly, because I need to explain to them that this child is he's not just having a behavior. He cannot control it. So I did a quick screen in front of them. So I screened his rooting reflex. Rooting reflex is a very one of like the first you know, should have been integrated, what, four months. So I screened him like this child. You can see his mouth moving, opening his mouth. He's was seven years old, or seven and a half years old, so I have to, I can explain to them right there. I said, like, this is a primitive reflex, like, so he's constantly doing that. There's also a back end reflex, which is connected with your hand and mouth. So everything you hold in your hand, goes in the mouth, because those reflex patterns are connected. So when you ask him the child, when you ask him, what's in your mouth, he's like, it's almost, he's almost surprised that something in his mouth, because he's not consciously doing he's not like walking around. Oh, a rock. Let me put that rock in my mouth, because he's smart enough in his head to understand, but when he's not thinking, when he's like, focusing on things, something in his hand is goes inside the mouth. They were saying how dangerous it was because he had they found him like a scissor in his mouth during cutting activity or so it can get dangerous. So when I showed them right? Really quickly, I said, like, hey, this should have been gone. And I even went and did that to the teacher, like, I just stroked their face, like, see nothing happened to you. And so in that way, there was almost an understanding of compassion and less frustration with the kid. And then they can understand now he's like in a brain stem level. So we really need to work on creating movement activities and to help, really, this brain to develop so that they can get to the point of like, higher level function of like, don't even expect him to sit for 40 minutes for you, because we're really in a lower level. So we have to change the expectation for the class safety and all that. But that's just one example of because, is it the solution to always give him a chewy toy because he's constantly chewing? Or can we really go a little bit deeper and see why even is there it should have that kind of exploration is very, you know, immature in a sense, like, you know, babies do that, right? They explore. It's a developmentally appropriate a certain age, but should go away, yeah? So, yeah, that's one observation.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Like, I would have just seen the proprioception, the tactile, but you saw, you know, the reflex, and we're able to go that route. So, yeah, definitely one thing that I have learned from discussions with people who use a primitive reflex model. You know, you hear about these different screenings, right? You're testing like you're testing this reflex, you're testing that reflex. I honestly don't know the answer to this. Is there a standardized tool at all for looking at reflexes, you know, like we have the easy, or we have the sipped, or we have the bot, you know, standardized tools. But is there actually a standardized tool, or a go to tool, even for, you know, looking at primitive reflexes?    Kokeb McDonald     Not that I know of right now, there is no standardized we should have some kind of standardized we should develop. We are developing one for our program. For instance, it's not standardized. It's really based on observation and really training the therapist. The reason, even on my program, we have them stay with us for about 12 months, and have Q and A calls and implementation in video chats and coaching is it really takes time to learn to have this clinical, sharp eye to picking up these movement pattern right? So we encourage the therapist to take a video while they're screening. So I can, we can watch them do the screening and help them pick up as well. So it really takes time. I really, I really, highly encourage therapists to not assume that you just gonna read it up and then you gonna pick it up. I mean, took me years and years, and this Like any skill, right? So it's gonna take time to learn this, but we do right now. Observation. You. We do an actual screening method and then have them train them in how to look at these reflex patterns. We also, in my program, I learned that it's important, especially for OTs, to go back and review anatomy and movement pattern like the functional movement pattern, because we've forgotten what that looked like, what functional movement pattern looks like. What is the most efficient movement for this specific task? And once you have to have that baseline, and then, you know, these reflex patterns, you can really easily screen better instead of just looking for screening. Sometimes what happens I see now a lot of posts on social media, as well as like stnr, and then they do just one thing. But for us, we screen the entire body, because there's so much that happens with the body the way they compensate. So even if you're screening one thing, you can also start observing other reflexes, kicking to compensate, right? So the same way our body does that all the time, right? So you're doing some exercise. The mouth is moving, the toes are curling, and, you know, you're moving from the shoulder. We want you only need to write from the wrist, like stuff like that. So we want to look at different patterns. We can also look at, look at in this screen.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could definitely see a tool that almost looks similar to, like the sensory profile or the SPM, right, where it asks the teacher or the parent, you know, about behaviors that the teacher or parent can see, and then it kind of categorizes it into different Yeah, reflexes that that is associated with. I mean, maybe you kind of have something with that. It sounded like you kind of alluded to something similar to that within the program. But yeah, I think that would be an absolutely helpful tool for anyone who's kind of, again, you got to have the education to know where to go with it. From there, you know, once you know that it's the more reflex, you got to know what to do beyond that. But yeah, very interesting idea, if someone hasn't developed that, that would be a great tool. I'm sure that a lot of OTs would find helpful. So.    Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, yeah, we have this symptom checklist, and we're doing the screening, and the school based too. We're working on a tiered intervention, like, you know, tier one, tier two, tier three, kind of way of evaluating an intervention, because our program, we have a school program, for instance, that service the entire school, not just kids with IEPs or services. Because I really do believe everyone should get this as almost like a school based and school wide movement break. So now we everyone can get it, because we have a lot of actually, it's interesting. We have a lot of kids who are falling behind, who are not on service, they don't really qualify for service, but then are struggling and can still benefit from it. So like with a school program, for instance, we encourage everyone to use it, and then if the kit really needs service and it can get pulled out and do more of intensive work. So.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that's awesome, a follow up to that. Specifically, I have so many follow up, but are you? You're doing tier one, tier two, tier three, just to confirm, because everyone kind of thinks about tier one, tier two, tier three a little bit differently. I think of tier one as, like, supporting the teachers. Tier two, maybe supporting the entire classroom, or a group of kids, and then tier three gets more individualized. Does that kind of align with with your tier one, tier two, tier three?    Kokeb McDonald     Yes. So luckily I have, like, I have it here, so I'm looking at it. So yeah, tier one. I was just reviewing it, editing it, so Tier one is more of like a general classroom we're doing. Tier Two is like for at risk kids, and then tier three will be individualized support. Yes.    Jayson Davies     Okay, so then, if I can really quickly ask you, how do you measure whether or not in the group sense progress is being made or not being made? Is each individual student going through a screening process, or is it like a group screening process?    Kokeb McDonald     Yeah. So what I'm in the middle of development inside of our program right now, so usually, ideally, as I'm training our therapist to go in and do like a school, like, if you have a school wide contract, for instance, and be able to if you're doing a push in. And right now, I do that with a school, and I have the entire school, like pre K to high school, so we are implementing these ritp program for the entire school, so every teacher is trained, they have access to our program. They implement that as a movement break throughout the class, and when they contact me as like, Okay, I have clients on kids so and so. I need support so and that way I'm creating it. Actually, for me, I'm like, I have the entire school, so I wanted to make sure I create this. So I'm gonna give the teachers to do a quick. Okay, have we done a school like, you know, the general classroom intervention and then, but there's some kids that we need to actually in addition to what they're doing, because we're trying to create the same activity so they won't be confused. They're already doing it. And so now we're creating a program they can pull out. And then we give them, like, five minutes or something, so do additional movement break, and they can come back again. And then when I'm screening the classroom, I can, for me, at least, because I can do it, I can be able to do a quick analysis of the child, and be able to say, like, oh, okay, we need to target this, this reflexes. So and our program that we give them so we have, like, the done for you school program that we can actually give them a playlist for the specific kid to go outside and do his exercise and come back. So the idea is, like, when we do, you know, sensory diet we've heard about that, that's where OTs do. I always been thinking. I always want my sensory diet or movement break to be meaningful and really connect brain body connection. I want, I don't want it to be like, just jump and come back. I'm like, why am I having this kid jump and come back? As is really targeting a problem. But how about if I can give him, like a five or 10 minute of exercise that really targets the challenge. And if we can create frequency that's actually can get a better result with that than seeing him once a week with me, if I can create a movement break that the teacher can easily implement, the child can go do it and come back, or the Para educator can do a comeback, or send a home program and do a comeback, you get a better result then, yeah, you know, you just shooting in the dark. Sometimes I kind of feel, I felt like that I sent ot right now, like, Okay, try this. Roll here, run here, you know, and then I'm like, we still having the same problem next year.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And, and so I was just wondering how you how you kind of kept track of whether or not the student need to to progress from, you know, tier one to tier two to tier three, or if they're doing okay well enough in tier one. It sounds like it's primarily your observation as a therapist, whether or not you go in and observe the entire classroom, and you kind of pick out which, you know, students who may need a little bit more and which students who don't need as much. So does that sound about right?    Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, that that would be definitely a skilled therapist. Like that would be something this can can help. Because sometimes even the teacher will their kids will pull out, and then the teacher will say, like, oh, he doesn't need it anymore. He can the what we're doing already, he's can maintain. We also will teach the kid to say, like, okay, to teach, to tell them like, Oh, do you want movement break? Okay, when you want movement break, this is what you can do. So even educating them. But then they're outside of that. There are some other kids who definitely need a structure, pull out one on one sessions.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. And it's hard, because I think as therapists, we want to develop like a tier one system, or maybe even a tier two system, where the teachers can do the measuring, as opposed to us needing to do the observation and measuring. And that's really hard, especially when you're talking about things that are happening within the brain, right? Like, it's one thing to see a pencil grip, it's another thing to understand reflex integration, sensory processing, all that other stuff, right? So it's very hard to conduct a screening other than just, you know, an individual student, screening a group of students, or screening an entire classroom without the occupational therapist, or maybe even an occupational therapy assistant, even getting into the classroom to really kind of observe what's going on. So, yeah, yeah, thanks for diving into that. I know that was not planned on today's conversation, but I appreciate going down that route.    Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, yeah, definitely building it, and then we're testing it out all the time and then improving it. So that's, that's where we're at right now. Wasn't actually supposed to be public. Now you got me talking about.    Jayson Davies     All right, uh, well then, no one heard any of that. You can obviously, if you heard anything about, um, all right, going back you talked a little bit about integrating your approach with play and as pediatric occupational therapy, practitioner, school based, clinic based, home based, anything. Of course, play is huge, right? Like it is the primary occupation of a child, and it is one of the ways that we can help children make progress. So how have you kind of done that? How have you incorporated reflex integration into a play based approach?     Kokeb McDonald     Yes, just like you said, it's a natural progression for the kids, and the best way to learn is through play, and the best way for OTs is think of it when. Let's say when you are creating an obstacle course, we do that a lot, right? So we have a group session, and you create an obstacle course, and you pick out exercises. So what we teach is we really dive and break down each game you're doing an activity. Let's say you have them crawl through the tunnel. We can break down each of those movement patterns, and you can relate it specifically and to specific reflex patterns and how to even screen and observe. I think that that is the skill that we want our therapist to learn as like, Okay, I I picked five games, and I want to know my therapist to tell me I'm for each of the five games. I want you to tell me exactly what you're looking at, right? So let's say we the crawling. You know, we crawling can be working on and observing STN, R like one of the reflex that helps with the crawling is sdnr. You can look into the Galant, even in crawling, and you can also work on the atnr and during crawling, that's like, but then for the client, I tell them, for for you, it's very like, you're like a detective. You're observing every part of the body, and you're learning to pick up all these and how to observe the parent, the child, for the kid, is play. You're creating an obstacle course, but you're picking specifically the exercises that you want that is triggering the reflex pattern. It's going to challenge them just enough. But then for you to work on these brain body connection so we, I mean, the entire ot gym that you have, we can create a play based work just for that. But then for the therapist, we're teaching them how to observe these pattern, how they make it difficult for the child, let's say, to hang from the monkey bar. Why? Why is that? And their reflex parent can look through that. And which one are you working on in ball games, you can do the same, similar things. You name it. We can do it. You know, it's just really teaching therapists a tool to to assess even their work and to track.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and, and again. You know, you don't necessarily have to have a clinic to do a lot of this. And, and maybe I'll let you share in a second, you know, like, what you can do if you don't have a clinic to do to look at some of these. But you don't necessarily have to have a si or reflex integration type of clinic to do a lot of this. What would you recommend to therapists to don't necessarily have a nice therapy space, space.    Kokeb McDonald     Okay, then a park. Do they have access to a park or playground? Playground? Yeah, so playground. So Monkey Bar is, like, one of the most common activities or even goals that I've seen written for OTs, right? So like, he will, you know, work on a monkey bar, hang from there. Like for, for Monkey Bar. One other thing we train is like, Okay, what does it take for the child to be able to hang on the monkey bar, and what reflects make it even difficult for them. So mostly, if they're more reflexes really active, or the TLR is really active, anything that makes them leave the ground would be challenging. Balance is hard. Vestibular is affected. So we work a lot on vestibular, right? So specific reflexes, the patterns you can work on. And another thing is, like the Grasp reflex as well. Like, in order to be able to alternate the hand and to cross over the monkey bar, you need to have a shoulder strength, obviously, core strength and bilateral coordination, which is etnr and all that. But the palm of grasp is one too. So we can do like, Okay, which one do you want to work on first? So sometimes we have to, you know, go back and working on the pomegras before we even work on the morrow, because the child has to be able to hang on with both hands. Because, let's say the pomegrass still active. So when one hand opens, the other one will open with it, so they won't be able to hang on, on both hands and be able to balance. So their strength is affected. Their core strength affected so being able to gradually walk them through and even how to set up a simple, like five minute session that is really like, what can actually give them, like this domino effect into the goal that they're working on. So, yeah, you can do on the playground, climbing up and down the playground, whether or not you're doing I'll ask the therapist too, like, Okay, why is that some kids have a hard time pumping on swings, right? So that can be if the sdnr is really active, or the TLR is really active. It's really hard for them to differentiate the upper body and lower body. And then you can see this awkward movement pattern like and their mind. You can see they're really, really trying, but their body is totally not following through. So you can see this disconnect with the body the brain. Body. So that's what we're going to help them. It's like, Okay, now we're going to downgrade the activity and help them.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha. Sorry, I have so many follow ups. I'm going to preface this with I am very uneducated when it comes to primitive reflex, and I really am, and I'm really asking questions that I'm genuinely interested in, and I think others that are listening might be interested in as well. A lot of what we talked about today has been more gross motor stuff, crawling, doing the monkey bars, climbing up and down different areas. You know, attention that's not really it's not gross motor. It's not any motor, but we haven't discussed fine motor at all. And I'm curious to know if there has been correlation between fine motor and primitive reflexes.    Kokeb McDonald     Oh, yeah, 100% I'm actually writing the next book on hand, which will include perfect at least. This is a plug that was not planned, but yeah, so I'm working on the hand because it took I decided not to write on the hand. Because, yes, OTs, we can tend to focus on the hand, but there's so much also we need to work on the postural reflex as well. But the hand, which is the palm of grasp, effect the hand the fine motor, the back in the one we talked about, like, have you seen kids cutting but their mouth is opening with it every time the mouth opens. Yeah, that is the AP reflex. That's the reflex that sometimes makes them like even want to put things in the mouth constantly, because something in the mouth, it goes in, you know, hand. It goes in the mouth, the hands pulling reflex, as well as connected to the hand as well even other reflexes, like atnr, which affects eye hand coordination, being able to time, that affects the hand as well. So the fine motor is also related to speech. So our grasp as there's a lot of actually, I'm researching on this because I'm about to write them. I'm writing the book as there is a correlation between the grasp and fine motor and and speech articulation, not the perception, but the articulation, which is why you see a lot of kids with fine motor challenge also have speech. Speech is a fine motor skill, right? It's a fine motor skill. And then you can see or how grasp or also affect overall strength. And then later on, even in older adults, the first thing for the quality of life is reduced 60 I think, if I'm not mistaken, are older adults because their grasp strength goes down. So how important it is actually to work on grasp for overall quality of life. Because if your hand strength is down, you know your functional skill, and you know taking care of yourself, care will go down as well. And this is really highly. Is, you know, connected. And if you notice too, like, if you had, I don't know if you have baby, or if a child, like the grass string, is so strong when they're born, you can literally an infant. You can literally lift them up and you can see how strong they are. This, like a tiny like infants, they are just born, literally, because they're so it's not because they're strong as it's the reflux. It's really strong pattern, yeah, and that helps with even breastfeeding. It helps because they tend to, you know, help with breast, you know, milk production, because they grasp on the mom's breast and then they squeeze. And that is something it helps with self regulation as well, because it's connected to it helps with the Moro reflex integration as well, because the Grasp helps, because the baby, you know, the infant, even with other animals, then research that they hold on to their caretakers. So that is all connected to grasp and hand strength is highly related.    Jayson Davies     Wow, yeah, you know. And I just casually went along with you and said, like, yeah, you know, speech movements is fine motor and like, I just, you know, went along with you, but, and it is, but I had never thought about that. And so when you said that, speech is fine motor, I think that's the way you phrased it, like, yeah. I mean, all the different movements that you have to make with your lips, your tongue, your jaw, all of that definitely not gross motor. I mean, maybe just opening your mouth, you might consider being gross motor, but everything else going on in there is definitely micro, small movements. So.     Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, very complicated. It's its own field, right? So, yeah, yeah, it's fine motor. Yeah, that's related. And then you'll see, if you go now look at your caseload and see how many kids who have fine motor challenges also have speech challenges. The correlation is very hot. Okay, yeah.    Jayson Davies     And I think we're all, you know, everyone right now, including myself, we're all thinking about one or two specific kids right now as you talk about this so absolutely and and it leads my head to a whole nother conversation, which has become kind of popular. I don't know if we'll dive into it, but about speech, kids who have speech only IEPs, whether or not they should also be able to have ot on their IEP, or if they need to have RSP or sai in order to have OT, whole other conversation. But this kind of backs up the idea that students who have a speech IEP might also need occupational therapy. So, yeah, just something to throw out there.    Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, I think it's important, like we have some speech therapists in our program as well. They take our certification program, because now more and more speech therapists are actually noticing that they need to do more than just the articulation piece of it there. There is more to speech development, like working on, I mean, co treating speech and OT is the best, and I actually enjoyed the most when I did that, especially the kiddos who have speech delay. And I can actually screen out, pull in the speech therapist, and then I show her, look at this, in in, let's co treat. So those aren't great. And then even encouraging speech therapists to do more movement activities and consider co treating with OTs and vice versa. And when our kids start doing really well and integration and coordination, bilateral coordination, I asked my team and my therapist to go and talk to their speech therapist and see if their goals are improving. And sure it is.    Jayson Davies     Wow, yeah. It's amazing how the how the brain works, and everything kind of comes together, you know, we, yeah, we like to, you know, it was always big, right? Express, I mean, it's still a big thing in, especially in, like an OT school, right? People get frustrated when they say, oh, PT works on the legs. OTs work on the arms, and, I mean, it's just another reason to be more frustrated by it, because it's all interconnected, right? Like we can't separate speech therapists from i You can separate what we each do, yes, but at the end of the day, it's all interconnected, and what what you do might impact speech not because you are a speech therapist, but because that's just the way that this child or person's brain works. Right when you impact one thing, it impacts another. So yeah, absolutely crazy. One last topic that I want to address before we move on today is a little bit about collaboration, because within school based occupational therapy, we are often tasked with supporting teachers, and we talked a little bit about this with the tier one, tier two, tier three, that we discussed earlier. But I'll ask you this way, if there's an occupational therapist, you know, listening out there today and they want to support their teachers, maybe they already have some some education with primitive reflexes. But what maybe one or two tips do you have for maybe helping an occupational therapist support a teacher, whether it be one specific kid or the entire classroom? I know carry over is always difficult with teachers. Is there any suggestion that you might have to help with the carryover?    Kokeb McDonald     Yes, so I can tell you what I've learned by working with lots of years, and what I noticed is, even when why we developed a school based program is is really understanding what the teacher goal is, right? So usually we go in a classroom and focus on our goal, like I'm an OT. Here is my kiddo. This is my goal, and I'll go, do you know? But then we forget true, yeah, that is because that is our care, and then that's why we're there, and we assume the teacher is equally concerned about that. Yeah, and then what I but then, when I did this work, I think I spent about a year going to classes and just observing teachers and what they do and the amount of tasks they have on your plate, and they're just overwhelmed by like 30 kids, and we have that one kid, we want them to do something. And so what I've learned, and even I changed my approach with teachers, and we just decided, okay, what do teachers really need? And each of the teacher working with, just like your clients, they're different, right? So there, are teachers who are like, gonna learn and read everything, and they will implement everything to the team. I mean, those are great. But then there are teachers that they are overwhelmed themselves. So what can we do? So what I've noticed, in general, what works really best for teachers is when you provide a. Done for you. Curriculum based. Here it is five minutes. Just do it, because I got a first I was focused on. Let me explain to you. Let me help you understand why this is important. I'm like, they don't care because, because there's a lot of other things they need to do. So the best way is to understand your teacher, know their pattern, your own teacher pattern, what works best for them, and then suggest and ideally for me, what I do is give them a done for you program, like, we just give them, like, Okay, you have five minutes. I'm going to doing this time. Just do this exercise with the whole class. And if you want to learn more, come here. I'll show you how to do it. And when I, when I work on a client, I first, with the teacher, actually address their goal first, because they care about what they care about. So I I'll, instead of, like, telling them what I'm concerned about, I tell them, like, Okay, the reason you want them to sit still, okay, this is what's going to help them. You want to, what are the things you're concerned about? I'll help you with that. And indirectly, you'll work on on the goal. And I think that same thing with everybody else too, right? So, and, but you definitely have to, you have, I have to remember there the classroom is the teacher's domain. I don't dictate it. And then if it does, if I'm overwhelming them, I lose already the same with home program, right? So you have to figure out the parent and what they can handle. And then I if you overwhelm them, and then you're not meeting, you're not addressing the main concern. They're not going to do it. So sometimes that's why I screen in front of them, to show them, because when they say I'm concerned about this kid, like the the oral motor situation, that he puts everything in his mouth, I just pulled the kid in front of him and did the screening right quickly in front of him and proved to them that, hey, this is a not behavior. And then you can see their their demeanor starts to change. They they feel like, oh my gosh, I didn't know a poor baby, you know. Like they care more so now they're not having this battle, you know, like, you know, battle with him about behavior issues. He's not listening to me. Situation that's, that's our approach. And then offering a denfoy, easy to follow program, it's ideal, and that's we create that for.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, yeah, and, you know, it takes a little bit of time to do something like that as a school based OT, absolutely. But I found like, once you create your template for what your program is going to look like, then it's relatively simple to plug and play. Once you have, you know, this student versus that student like you, you've got the infrastructure there. You just need to change out a few different routines that you might want this student to work on versus this student. And it's relatively simple. It takes less time. There's always that setup phase of getting it, you know, ready, but by by developing the template that can be simplified. We'll just put it that way. Definitely be simplified. And 100% agree with you on figuring out what the teacher's goal is. That is my number one go to support that I provide to OTs oftentimes like, they ask me, like, I don't know what to work on the court or what to work on with this student. Ask the teacher, start with the teacher, because the teacher sees the kid every day. They know what they want that student to do in the classroom, that's the best place to start. So, yeah.    Kokeb McDonald     And if you can solve other things for them, yeah, they will. They will definitely buy into what you're going to do.    Jayson Davies     Yep, yep. 100% All right. Well, COVID, it has been amazing talking to you a little bit about reflex integration. Thank you so much for coming on. And before you go, I want to give you a little a little moment to talk a little bit about what you're doing over at integrating reflexes.com and what you have to offer for therapists. You've mentioned books, but what else?     Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, we have a mobile app that is now public for everybody we that's where we have our therapist create treatment plans, and then they can easily share it with their clients to be able to access that. We also have made it available that parents who don't have therapists who wants to actually start a home, they can be able to access it as well and learn and be able to implement it with their client, with their child. It has activities. It's done for you, movement activities and some explanation. And constantly adding to it, we have a little bit game set there can be able to do as well. We have a certification program that we teach therapists to screen, create a treatment plan, implement and be able to, you know, create a home program and school program as well, and then be able to do that inside our program. We do coaching. It's 12 months right now. Is 12 months program access that we give them. Some of them finish it really quickly. Some of them takes them a while. To learn to implement, but they have 12 months access to our coaching and support where they can come. We have life coaching times that they bring in their cases. We do treatment planning and brainstorming, ideas and support, so that is something we provide. We have books and resources that we create for therapists to be able to implement constantly, creating those what else we have game. We have a memory game and game, a tile game that we have for a lot of therapists actually like it, because it's easily they can take it with them and they do memory game, and it's exercises, but all the exercises are picked so it can challenge different reflex pattern as well. And I think that's it for now. Yeah.    Jayson Davies     Is integrating integrating  reflex.com that's the best place for everyone to go?    Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, or you can go ritp dot info and then sends them to our website, which is integrating reflexes.com .    Jayson Davies     Perfect. Well. Kokeb, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate it. And yeah, we will link to all those in the show notes, as well as any other resources that we've kind of talked about today. And yeah, definitely go check out the website. Kokub also has several videos where she like shows the game and whatnot. So head on over there. Learn more about the game, the app, all of that, and especially the program, if you want to learn more about reflex integration. So Kokeb One last time. Thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate yourself and all the knowledge that you shared.    Kokeb McDonald     Yeah, thank you so much for the invite. I appreciate it.    Jayson Davies     And that wraps up another episode of the OT schoolhouse podcast, a huge thank you to kokub for joining us today and sharing her expertise in reflex integration. Kokeb, your insights into making reflex integration accessible, practical and occupational focused have truly given us all something to think about and to apply into our school based practices. As an added bonus for listening to this episode, Kokeb is graciously offering all of our listeners 10% off her reflex integration books and games at integrating reflexes.com just use the code. OT schoolhouse, all one word to save today. And thank you, of course, for tuning in and taking the time to grow alongside us. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave a review or share with a colleague who could benefit from learning more about reflex integration and its place in school based occupational therapy. And if you're looking to take your professional development to the next level, I'd love to personally invite you to join the OT school house collaborative, our growing community of school based OTs and OTs, who meet every single month to learn from experts, dive into research and implement evidence based practices together. It's the perfect way to get the support and resources you need to grow in your role while connecting with others who understand your unique challenges. You can learn more and become a member over at ot  schoolhouse.com/collab , that's ots.com/C , O, L, L, A, B, with that, I hope our conversation today sparks some new ideas and approaches for you to consider in your practice. Remember, as ot practitioners, we have the incredible opportunity to make meaningful changes in the lives of our students, teachers and families we work with. Thank you again for listening in, and I will catch you in the final episode of 2024.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed. Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. A podcast for school-based OT practitioners, by school-based OT practitioners! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts. Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen where you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 94 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In today's episode of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, we are talking about OT Month coming up in April. Why are we doing this in March, you ask? Because OT Month is worth planning for, of course! In this Episode, I am going to share with you 10 ways you can celebrate and promote our fantastic occupation in a serving manner (because that is what we do here at the OT Schoolhouse. We serve first. 🤝) Here is a list of those 10 things, but listen in for more details on how you can implement each action. Get the occupational therapy crew together. Introduce yourself to the school teachers and support staff. Put together grade level kits. Leave resources and snacks in the teachers lounge. (See handout below) Create and conduct and inservice. Inform others of OT Month and why OTs are awesome! Create an opportunity to meet the parents. Answer questions on Q&A sites. Share OT related content on social media platforms. Share your A-Z list of school-based OT terms on social media platforms or wherever you have an audience. Use hashtags: #ABCsofOT and #ABCsofSBOT Get the OT Month Handouts With everything you've got going on, trying to promote OT Month can be tough. So, we are making it easy for you. Submit the form below to get your OT Month Tips Handouts that you can share with your school colleagues as a way to share how amazing you are and how you can directly support them and the students. Subscribe below to get your handouts! Additional Links to Show References: AOTAs 10 Ways to Promote OT Online Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript.   Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hello everyone. And welcome to episode 94 of the OT school house podcast. My name is Jayson Davies. In case this is your very first episode that you've ever listened to, and I'm a school based occupational therapist down in Southern California, whether this is the 94th episode that you've listened to or the very first episode anywhere in between, I want to say I appreciate you being here. Really happy to have you. I live to serve. I live to help. So I'm just happy to be able to support you in your career as a school based occupational therapist or a pediatric occupational therapist, maybe a mixture of the two. Again, just thank you so much for being here today. This is episode 94 and this episode actually signifies a lot of achievements for the OT school house. I just kind of wanted to point that out, because many of you have been on the ride right there with me. Some of you have listened to all 94 episodes, which is just insane. That's like 90 hours of listening to myself and and guests that we've had along the way. And I just want to say thank you so much for being here. This also actually signifies the four year mark of the OT school house podcast, which, again, just blows my mind. I've been doing this for four years now, and, you know, I thought I would have had more than 94 episodes after four years. But I am glad we are where we are right now, because putting out one episode a week, maybe I would have, I don't know what's 52 times four, about 200 episodes or so, but that is just beyond what I could even think to produce for you all, and the content just wouldn't be as great as what we are producing every other week right now for you. Oh, in addition to that, we have 100 episodes. The 100th episode will be coming up fairly soon, which, again, just blows my mind. So this is episode 94 and I'm just so happy that you're here with me today. I'm so happy that we got into 94 and I can't wait to continue more for you in the future. Now, this is also the first episode in a while where it's just me, there's no guest. And you know what? Today we are going to talk just me and you about ot month. It's coming up in a few weeks, and what we can do to celebrate ot month. You know, we are very prideful people as occupational therapists. We love our profession. We know that our profession helps so many people, not just the kids we work with, but all the other OTs in the world. They do so much. And so we want to celebrate, and we also want to teach others and let them know about ot month and how we can support them, and how maybe even they can support us a little bit. And so that's what we're here to talk about. I have 10 things that you can do to celebrate within ot month, and I'm giving this to you ahead of time because I want you to have some time to plan for them. Some are very simple. Some are a little bit more complex. It might take a few weeks to get going. So I want to share that with you right now. All right, before we dive into all of that content, I just want to share a little bit about what's coming up, because this is a solo episode, and then our next few episodes are also going to be solo episodes. We're actually doing a Q and A for episode 95 and so if you haven't yet submitted a question that you'd like to hear me answer on episode 95 be sure to do that right now. Click on over, press pause, click over to OT schoolhouse.com forward, slash question, and you can actually leave me a voicemail and potentially hear your voice on the next episode of the OT school house podcast. Going beyond that, in the month of May, we have a four episode series coming up that's going to be all about occupational therapy, of course, like it would be, but it's going to be celebrating occupational therapy, and it's a very special four series, four episode series, and I don't want to spoil everything for you, but it's going to be a lot of fun. It's also going to be educational. So stay tuned for that one last thing, if you do appreciate this podcast, if you have been appreciating this podcast for however many episodes you've been listening to it, I'd really appreciate if you could leave me a quick comment review. If you're listening on Apple podcast or Spotify, both of those platforms have an area where you can just write in a quick comment. Give me four stars, five stars, eight stars, I don't know, however many stars you want to give. And, yeah, I'd really appreciate that it just helps other school based occupational therapists to find the show, so that we can all support each other. So really appreciate you taking a moment to do that. All right, so let's talk ot month. You know, ot month, it's our month. We we really appreciate it. You know, we love that we have a month dedicated to us. But if you've had similar experiences to me, then other people don't necessarily know it's ot month. April is much more known as either Autism Awareness Month or autism experience. OTs month. It's not something that people say, Oh yeah, you know April, that's ot month. I need to find an OT and and say, Thank you or whatnot. That just hasn't been my experience, and I'm sure that that necessarily hasn't been your experiences as well. So what can we do to not necessarily change that, but still celebrate our month of April. Well, here are 10 things that I think that you can do to not only share what we do as occupational therapists, but also to promote occupational therapy as well as potentially lead to down the road. People may be celebrating you. I don't know about you, but I have felt very left out of emails from anyone, from a principal to a superintendent to even teachers, where they just like, forget that OTs even exist. In the schools, we get emails that celebrate psychologists week and counselors week, and Teachers Day and principals day, bosses day, secretary's day, everything like that, but OTs, we're often left out of that and just we don't get it. And it's frustrating. It can be frustrating. It definitely is. But there's things that we can do, starting with the most simple thing, the most potentially even fun thing. Let's go ahead and put together a little group, an OT crew, lunch or happy hour together. Find the OTs in your area. Find the OT, the OT as in your area, even if they're not necessarily in your district. Hopefully there's a few other OTs that you're familiar with within the region that you live in that you can just set something up and find that time to share. You know, as ot practitioners, we are often left to our own ot room, or we're left to kind of take care of five schools, and we don't see another ot for days, weeks, sometimes even months. But for the month of April, find a time that you can set aside to meet with some of your ot friends, and maybe this does need to be a virtual thing that's okay. Maybe you have some ot colleagues from back in college that you you remember and you just haven't had the chance to meet up with them as frequently as you'd like. This is a great excuse to reach out and say, hey, you know what ot month is coming up. Let's go ahead and set something up on Zoom. Or let's go ahead and meet over at the local restaurant, wherever, wherever you like to go on april 15, or whatever that might be. This is a great excuse to get together with some OTs and OT practitioners, OTs included, to just celebrate our profession. All right. So that's something that you can do with your ot friends, your ot colleagues, all of those people, and kind of keep it within the field of OT but let's get outside of the scope of just seeing our OT friends as well. Let's move beyond to help the teachers understand what we can do. I'm going to share with you five things that you can do to celebrate our OT profession while also helping us to better understand the teachers and help the teachers to better understand us. If you are pretty new to your campus or your district, and you haven't had the chance to simply get to know the teachers, then the first thing I'm going to recommend is that you actually just walk around campus one afternoon and introduce yourself to the teachers, let them know who you are, how you support students on campus, and how you maybe plan to eventually support students on campus. Maybe, right now, you are doing a lot of pull out sessions, but you want to know how you can support them more in the classroom. Let them know that. Let them know what your goals are, what your plans are, and how you can support them. Then before you leave that room, be sure to ask them how you can support them. You want them to walk away, or you want to walk away from their classroom thinking, oh, right, this is Miss Myers. I can support Miss Myers by doing this, whatever she says she needs help with. Now maybe you don't get to that today, but there's likely going to be a few teachers that you might be able to provide a very quick win for. And you can just say, Oh yeah. You know, back in the OT room, I actually have some Thera band. Let me go grab that real quick, bring that over, and maybe you can try it out with a few of your kids. And maybe it works, even if it doesn't, you have built a relationship with that teacher. So if you are new to a campus, new to an area as the OT I highly recommend you start here. And you can do that during ot month. You can even let them know that you're doing this as part of OT month. That's perfectly fine as well. Now, if you have multiple campuses, you're not sure you're going to be able to get to all of the campuses, because you just don't have that much time in your day. Maybe consider making it a video. Upload a video to YouTube and share a link in an email out to all the teachers, some of the teachers, whoever you want to get your your face, your name and what you do out to it's not too much work. It's pretty simple. You just got to put that video to. Together or come up with kind of what you're going to say when you knock on their door and they answer and ask, Wait, who are you? So that's a good way to start to get to know people and to let people know that, hey, it's O, team up. All right. So this next one requires maybe just a little bit more work, and maybe you've already had a chance to get to know most of your teachers. Well. Now I have this idea for you where we kind of separate it out by grade level. And I would say, maybe make a little kit, not for each classroom, but for each grade level. And so you can kind of put together some things that maybe you think all the kindergarten teachers should try out, or all the second grade teachers should try out, and put a little kit together for them and give it to them as a grade level. So maybe, for instance, in the kindergarten kit, you have a few different pencil grips, some adapted scissors, maybe some Thera band, maybe some adapted paper that you provide them, versus maybe the older kids, maybe fifth grade or so. Instead of providing with a lot of those physical, tangible resources. Maybe you put together a list of different websites to help with motor movements and different activities that they can do to support mindfulness, that could all be specific to a grade level, and you really only need to do it maybe six times if you're in an elementary school, four times if you're in high school, and you can kind of repeat it oftentimes. We have many of these resources either available to us in the OT room, or, if it's online, it's a free resource, right? We just have to put it on paper, but take some time to actually put some thought into it and say, You know what, I understand that your classroom is different from a different grade teacher's classroom. And here are some resources specific for the kids that are your age, they'll really appreciate that. They'll remember you for it. It's not just a box of chocolates that you're giving them, it's something that they will actually remember. And if you can send them a digital download even better, then they can kind of keep it on their computer somewhere. So that is our second thing that you can do directly for teachers, along the same lines as that, if you don't necessarily have the resources to maybe separate it out per grade level, maybe you find a resource that you can actually just leave in the staff lounge with a bag of Cheetos or something that people can crab snacks for them, right? We're likely to get people to see what we put out if we add some food to it. I am actually going to make these worksheets available that I've made, and it's four different worksheets designed to kind of explain the role of OT and how OTs might be able to support in the classroom teachers. So I'm going to make these resources available for you. Be sure to go over to OT schoolhouse.com , forward slash episode 94 where you'll be able to download these four documents that you can just leave out one per week that'll kind of say, Hey, I'm the school OT, this is me. Here you go. And then the next week is going to have a different thing that maybe you can support with, or something that the teacher can try in their classroom each week, there's a different resource that they can try for all four weeks of the month of April. I really hope that you will take me up on this and head over to otschoolhouse.com , forward slash episode 94 and grab those resources. And again, all you have to do is lay them out in your lounge. Or maybe there's a board where people share things. Put it up on that board. Add a bag of whatever is your favorite candy, maybe you can even personalize it a little bit. Say, oh, by the way, these are my favorite chips, Cheetos next week. Oh, this is my favorite candy, whatever it might be, just to make it a little bit more personable, make them a little bit more aware of you. And that brings us to our fifth thing that you can do during ot month to celebrate our wonderful profession. And this one does require more work, but I guarantee the results of it will be ever lasting. And maybe you can do it during ot month, but maybe you start it during ot month, and then you go beyond that. And what I mean by that is, remember, in one of the first things, I said, you know, going around finding out how you can support your teachers, right? You're gonna get a list, but you're gonna start develop some patterns. You're gonna see teachers are really saying the same two or three things over and over and over again. They need help with handwriting. They need help with sensory and they need help with behavior. Maybe those are the three things that you hear over and over and over again. Well, let's take that and let's turn it into an in service and support all the teachers, right? So maybe you go in the first week of April to all the teachers and they say, hey, those are the three things I need help with. Well, it might be a little difficult to turn that around into an in service within three weeks, by the end of the month, but maybe you can let them know that you'd like to provide it in service. Talk to your principal and say, you know, when can we schedule something? Even if you can just give it on a calendar and send out an email to all the teachers and say, Hey, I just want you to know I heard your concerns and I want to support you. This is how we're not going to be able to do this during ot month, which is April. Again, throw it out. It's ot month, but. But I'd love to be able to support you in May with an in service, work with your principal to figure out a date that you can do that. Maybe it is even after hours. Maybe it's on Zoom. It's okay. Maybe it's optional. It doesn't have to be mandatory. But if we can get a few people there, we are getting those few people on our side, it can be so simple, and it doesn't need to be what many of us think of an in service as a hour and a half long thing. No, you can make this super simple 30 minutes. Just give them the information you want them to have. Give them the information that you actually have. Don't go out of your way unless you really want to make this some big production, to get all the research and you know, 20 different things that you can do in the classroom for these teachers. Give them something simple that they can actually implement the next day or the next week. The easier we can make it for them, then the more likely they're going to do it, and also the more likely that they're going to remember that it was us that gave it to them and that it was part of OT month. So next April, maybe they'll remember, and maybe they'll even ask you for another in service during ot month in 2023, 2024, whenever that might be. If you'd like to learn more about how an in service can play into your RTI impact or your RTI strategy, be sure to check out episode 42 of the OT school house podcast. Or also check out my A to Z school based ot course, where we have an entire module on RTI, and that includes how to conduct a in service. I even actually give you a full PowerPoint that you can use as part of your in service. All right, that's going to wrap up our section where we talk about things that you can do specifically for teachers, but now let's talk about some things that maybe you can do that don't directly impact teachers, but eventually will have an impact on them. We can do this by impacting those who actually have some say over the teachers, such as principals, superintendents, a super assistant superintendents, the people that are both their bosses and our bosses. So how do we actually have an impact on someone who is our boss and the teacher's boss? Let's set up a time to have a discussion with those people, with maybe the special education director, coordinator, maybe if you can get to the superintendent or assistant superintendent, even a principal, can have an impact, but they need to know you exist. They need to know what you do, so reach out to them, or even have someone else kind of give you an introduction email, right? Maybe the speech therapist or another special education teacher you know, actually already has an established relationship with someone at a higher level, and they can CC you on an email or email both you and the superintendent, or whatever it might be, and say, Hey, Superintendent, I'd love to introduce you to our occupational therapist, and that's how you can start that conversation. Then set up a time to meet with him. It doesn't have to be anything super formal again, if you can just say, Hey, are you going to be on my campus anytime in the next few weeks? I'd love to talk to you for just five minutes and let you know about OT and what we're doing to support our students. These people need to know what we are doing. That's why we get so many emails that say, thank you teachers, thank you principals, thank you lunch room staff, thank you bus drivers. Thank you all these people, and we are never included in it, because they barely know that we exist. Let's give them a face to put to the profession of occupational therapy. Let's let them know we are a real person. Let them know that we are actually helping these students to be successful in their education, let them know that you exist before I move on to the next one. I do want to acknowledge that I know many of you that listen to this podcast are contract therapists. And you don't just have one district. You have multiple districts, and I understand it can be more difficult to do some of these things that I'm talking about when you have 12 different schools that you have to go to in four different districts. I understand that completely. And you know what? Maybe some of these things that I'm sharing with you, maybe they're not the best solution for you, or maybe you do it in a different way, and that's totally fine, because if you're a contracted therapist, there's no way that you can have a conversation with like four superintendents. It may just not be possible. I get that, but there are some things that you can do. Also, be sure to reach out to whoever your boss at your contract company is and make sure that they understand what you do, and let them know what your concerns are about working in this specific district or what's going well. They need to know that they're not at the school every week like you are. So even that person, your boss, your recruiter, whoever that might be, call them up, have a conversation with them, let them know what's going on in your contract world at school a or district B, whatever that might be, I'm sure that they would love to know how things are going, good or bad. Yeah, and who knows, maybe they'll be able to reach out to their contact at the district and maybe even set something up with you. They could be that person that connects you two together, and that brings us to our seventh thing, or seventh actionable item, that we can take of 10 for ot month to celebrate it, to bring awareness to ourselves, and that is to have a meet the OT night for parents. I actually did have a chance to do this kind of it was more disguised as a in service, per se, but it was nice because my principal supported me, and all we did was hop on Zoom. It was actually during the pandemic, and I gave the parents a little in service, about 30 minutes long. Again, not too long about setting up a homework or a at that time, it was more than homework, right? Because everyone was learning from home, setting up an area for school at the home, it was a great opportunity for me to not only get to know the parents of the students in the special education programming, but also the general education programs, parents from all the kids, not just the special education students, came to this and so again, it was a way for me to get out that, hey, I'm the OT. I work at this district. Your child might see me. You might see me if you're on campus. My name is Jayson, and I'd love to chat more, right? A great opportunity, just to get ourselves out there. Of course, also mentioned in there, if you can, by the way, April's ot month. You know, don't say it in a way that you expect anything. That's the last thing anyone wants to hear from you. But again, just throw it out there. April's ot month, and I'm just here to support you, support your kids, support the teachers in any way can. I would love to continue this conversation with you at any time. Here's my email. Please reach out to me with any questions you have. Now, even when you give out your email, the likelihood of you getting any emails is very slim. There are times that I send out emails to 1000s of people and don't get many responses. That's okay. The idea that you are opening yourself up, you're seeming approachable. You are being approachable is a big thing, and parents appreciate that, so set that up. Maybe you already had an OT night, or maybe you go to the back to school night and you do make yourself available. That's awesome. Maybe you don't need to do this during ot month if you already do that, but this is an idea for you. If you want to do something for ot month, potentially, that's a way to do it. Set up an OT night for parents to meet you. And again, this can be virtual. It doesn't necessarily need to be in person, all right. And that now brings us to the final three things on our list, and before I jump into these final three things, of 10 things that you can do to support occupational therapy during ot month, these final three things are really kind of outside of potentially what you might do as a school based OT or at least in that setting, these are more related to doing things online, social media. However, I'm sure there are ways that you could actually incorporate this into your school based ot practice, even if it's through like a newsletter or something like that. So let me get into these, and then maybe I'll relate them back to what you can do on campus that would be similar. So this first one, I have to say I actually got this from a short blog article from the A O T, a website. They have a list of 10 things that you can do for ot month. And this was the one that stood out to me the most, because it was unique. And what they suggested was actually getting onto some of those websites where people ask questions and just replying to a few there and pointing out that you're an occupational therapist replying so websites like Reddit, where people it's it's like a form an open forum right Reddit, where you can just answer any questions about health or about education. Maybe jumping on there, maybe finding parents that have difficulty with their kids in the area of ADLs, handwriting, sensory, whatever it might be, and just providing your perspective from an OT perspective. Other websites like ask.com There's various things here where you can just jump on and answer a few questions. Now, how would that potentially look if you do it in a school based ot setting? Well, that could be kind of like what we talked about earlier, a Meet the Parents, or in service for teachers. That might be a maybe. It's like a newsletter that you send home to either all the parents of the kids that you work directly with, or maybe even the entire school, if your principal is open with that. In the past, what I have actually done that's been kind of fun to do is I've sent out a newsletter before breaks, so before the holiday break in December and then again in the summer, I'd usually do it twice a year. I send out a newsletter of maybe different ways that parents can support their students over that break, whether it's iPad apps or different games that they can play, maybe doing things outdoors, something like that. Very simple, and it just goes out to everyone. So that's something that you. Be able to do from the school based ot perspective within your practice, number nine is to share ot related content on social media platforms, just to kind of just as outreach, to bring people awareness to occupational therapy. Now, the one thing I will say about this is that oftentimes, as occupational therapists, our community, the people that follow us are occupational therapists. They already know about OT. And the whole point of this social media outreach is to try to get the word of OT outside the OT circle. And so if there's any way that you can do that, maybe it has to do with different hashtags that you use. Maybe you're using something that helps you target educators in general, or more specifically, I guess, or parents specifically, or doctors specifically, find out what hashtags they use, and then use those types of hashtags, so maybe your posts will show up on their feed. As far as doing this within your school community, find out maybe your school, or your schools, or your district, has social media outlets, and maybe you can find out how you could potentially have something shared within those media outlets. That'd be kind of cool, right? Imagine the district Instagram account sending out something like, Hey, meet our occupational therapist. This is what he or she does with the kids in our schools. That'd be pretty cool. So find out if you might be able to do that, even if it's just your school, or maybe your teacher, parent committee. Maybe they have something like that that can go out. That'd be pretty cool, I think. And finally, that brings us to our 10th and final thing that you can do to promote occupational therapy during ot month, and that is to share your ABCs of OT, or, as I will be doing this April, my ABCs of school based OT, the ABCs of OT hashtag was originally started by Shannon Marie underscore OT. Shannon Marie ot on Instagram, and it has blown up over the last two or three years, and now you will see this all over the OT, Instagram, Twitter, social media world where people are sharing their ABCs of OT. What I mean by ABCs of OT is that they pick a word for each letter of the alphabet, and they share one post per day on that letter. So for me, for instance, for school based ot this year, I am going to be sharing a to z of school based OTs, which, for just reference, I'm going to start with administrators for the letter A, B for behavior core strength for letter C. Potentially, these are just some ideas that can help get you started. And then again, be sure to tag people that aren't necessarily ot related, or maybe not tag them, but use hashtags so that people that are not OTs will see this information. Really try and reach out to people that are educators, administrators, special education teachers, speech and language pathologists, maybe physical therapists, Adapted PE teachers, people that are outside the OT world, but would really benefit from knowing what we do. If you'd like to see an example of the ABCs of OT, be sure to check out Shannon Marie's ot page on Instagram, where you can go back and look at her history of things that she has done for ABCs of OT. Also, many other people have done them. I know Alvin from ot outside the box did one last year. I believe that Sarah from ot for life has done them before as well. Be sure to check those out and yeah, just what are your ABCs of OT? Share those on social media, or get creative and do it within your school. Maybe you just have, like, a list that you send out, or maybe you send out an email every day to a few teachers, maybe not to everyone. You don't want to frustrate anyone by sending them a daily email, but those teachers that you think might actually appreciate it, send them a daily email with today's letter is a for whatever you want to use letter A for. I think there are actually some teachers that would appreciate learning more about you and what you do, and maybe you can actually throw in a few of those letters that are more specific to you, so that the teachers get to know you, not just occupational therapy. All right. Well, that is going to wrap up our episode for today. This was episode 94 and if you'd like to hear any of the show notes, or sorry, not hear them, you're hearing them here. But if you'd like to see the show notes, where I list out these 10 things that you can do as part of OT month, head over to OT schoolhouse.com , forward slash, Episode 94 while you're there, there is a lot to check out. We have courses, we have free resources. We have a conference coming up in August. That's going to be amazing. It's not yet available for registration, but I look forward to seeing many of you there. Thank you so much again for spending this time with me. I know we are right at about the 30 minute time period. Thank you for spending these 30 minutes with me. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you being here. I value you, and I actually enjoy learning from you. So reach out to me if there's anything. That that I missed on this list, reach out to me on Instagram or send me an email at jason@otschoolhouse.com and let me know what I forgot. What should I have added to this list? Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. And then also, if you wouldn't mind, please do leave a star rating and a little comment about what you enjoy about this podcast that is gonna end our episode 94 and I will see you next time on the OT school house podcast. Take care. Have a great rest of your week. Yeah. Enjoy. Bye. You Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

As school-based OT practitioners, we’re responsible for much more than direct services to students. Our days are filled with evaluations, IEP meetings, consultations, documentation, and, for a vast majority of us, travel between schools. Yet, in many districts, our responsibilities are still assessed solely by the number of students who have OT listed on their IEP - AKA your caseload. The truth is, your workload  encompasses much more than just your caseload. Understanding and tracking your workload is essential to advocating for the support you need, ensuring not only your own well-being but also better outcomes for the students and schools you serve. Let’s dive into what it means to track your workload and how you can begin taking steps toward meaningful change. School-based OT Caseload vs. Workload: What’s the Difference? What Is Your Caseload? Your caseload refers to the number of students you are directly responsible for serving through IEPs or 504 plans. For example, you might have a caseload of 50 students across three schools, each requiring different types of intervention or consultation. While caseload numbers are often used as a quick metric to determine staffing for a district, they only tell part of the story and, to a degree, set us up for failure from the get-go. Caseloads fails to capture many of the tasks and responsibilities that allow you to succeed in your role as a school-based OT. What Is Your Workload? Your workload, on the other hand, includes all the tasks and responsibilities that come with your job. These go far beyond direct services to students and may include: Writing evaluations, IEP reports, and progress updates. Attending IEP meetings, MTSS sessions, and team discussions. Collaborating with teachers, parents, and other staff to support student goals. Traveling between school sites. Participating in school-wide initiatives like RTI or professional development. Providing staff training or workshops. A workload approach  accounts for all these tasks, offering a more complete and realistic picture of your responsibilities. Why a Caseload-Only Approach Falls Short Using caseload numbers as the sole measure of your responsibilities can lead to unrealistic expectations and unnecessary stress. Here are a few reasons why a caseload-only approach doesn’t work: 1. Invisible Responsibilities Caseload numbers don’t account for the time spent on evaluations, documentation, and collaboration. These tasks are crucial to your role but are often overlooked in caseload-only models. 2. Burnout and Missed Goals According to a 2020 survey published in the American Journal of Occupational Therapy  (AJOT), 60% of school-based OTs reported feeling their caseloads were unmanageable. Even more concerning, 55% said they couldn’t meet all the mandated IEP minutes for their students. This gap not only impacts students but also contributes to OT burnout. 3. Missed Opportunities When your caseload is the only focus, there’s often less time and support for broader initiatives like tiered interventions or teacher training—programs that can positively impact more students while reducing referrals. The Benefits of Tracking Your Workload Switching to a workload approach offers numerous benefits for both you and your school community: Advocate for Resources:  Data from workload tracking can help you demonstrate the need for additional staff or policy changes. Improve Time Management:  By understanding how your time is spent, you can prioritize high-impact activities and identify inefficiencies. Enhance Job Satisfaction:  A manageable workload allows you to focus on delivering high-quality services, leading to better student outcomes and a more fulfilling career as an OT practitioner. Support System-Wide Goals:  A workload approach highlights how your work contributes to broader school initiatives, helping to align your role with district priorities. Looking to ditch the Caseload Model and move to a Workload Approach? While at a rural school district with a caseload of over 100 kids , I knew something had to change. That's when I began to study where my time went and create a plan to get support. After changing how our program operated and convincing my boss to hire another OT, I created this course to help OT practitioners and other providers do the same. Click here for support in making the transition! How to Measure Your Workload Tracking your workload is simpler than it might seem, and it’s a powerful way to take control of your responsibilities. Here’s how to get started: Step 1: Use the Workload Calculator Our Workload Calculator  at otschoolhouse.com/calculator  is a free tool designed to give you a quick overview of your workload. Input your current caseload data and select the responsibilities that most align with your job, and the calculator will provide a snapshot of how much time it should take to complete your job in a given week. This is a great starting point to screen whether or not your workload "should" be manageable. Step 2: Conduct a Time Study For a more accurate understanding of your workload, track everything you do during your workday for one to two weeks. Be detailed—record time spent on direct services, writing reports, traveling, attending meetings, and collaborating with teachers. This time study will give you precise data on where your hours are going. Step 3: Identify Areas of Concern Compare the results from your Workload Calculator and time study. Are certain tasks consuming too much of your time? Is there an imbalance between direct services and other responsibilities? Use this analysis to identify areas that need adjustment. Step 4: Advocate for Change Present your findings to administrators in a clear, data-driven way. Highlight how your workload exceeds your available time and suggest actionable solutions, such as hiring additional staff, reducing your caseload, or redistributing responsibilities. If you'd like help with this four-step process, I offer a workshop titled Making The Shift: Caseload to Workload . In that course, I walk you through each step and provide templates and tools to help you and your team along the way. Learn more here. Overcoming Barriers to Change Advocating for change isn’t always easy, especially in districts that have relied on a caseload-only model for years. Here are some tips to navigate common challenges: Speak Their Language Administrators are often focused on compliance, cost savings, and student outcomes. Frame your argument in terms that resonate with them, such as how a manageable workload can improve compliance with IEP mandates or reduce burnout-related turnover. Start Small If a full shift to a workload model seems overwhelming, propose a pilot program for your department. A small-scale trial can demonstrate the benefits of the approach without requiring district-wide changes. Work as a Team Collaborate with your colleagues to present a unified case for change. A collective voice is often more persuasive than an individual request. Take Action Today If you’re ready to take control of your workload, the Workload Calculator  is the perfect place to start. This free tool helps you analyze how your time is spent and provides the data you need to advocate for meaningful change. By combining the insights from the Workload Calculator with a detailed time study, you’ll be well-equipped to make the case for a workload approach that supports both you and your students. A Final Thought The work we do as school-based OT practitioners is invaluable. Unfortunately, it is also sometimes difficult for us to quantify its impact. Understanding and tracking our workloads is the first step to both advocating for ourselves and measuring the quality of our services. Unless we understand the time we spend on specific activities, we are not able to identify what tasks are making the most impact. Maybe it is 1-on-1 services. Maybe it is groups or classroom collaborations. But without the data, we won't know. By tracking your time, you can make the necessary changes to ensure your time and energy are spent where they matter most—on the students and schools you serve. Let’s make the shift. Your work matters, and so do you. References American Occupational Therapy Association, American Physical Therapy Association, American Speech-Language-Hearing Association . (2014). Workload Approach: A Paradigm Shift for Positive Impact on Student Outcomes . Retrieved from https://pediatricapta.org/special-interest-groups/SB/pdfs/APTA-ASHA-AOTA-Joint-Doc-Workload-Approach-.pdf Seruya, F. M., & Garfinkel, M. (2020). Caseload and Workload: Current Trends in School-Based Practice Across the United States. American Journal of Occupational Therapy , 74 (5), 7405205090p1-7405205090p8. https://doi.org/10.5014/ajot.2020.039818

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen where you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 95 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In this episode of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, I am answering the questions submitted by several of our OT Schoolhouse Podcast listeners. From "what is a consult?" to "how do I implement sensory strategies?" I am answering a dozen questions that were submitted by OT practitioners that work in the schools and listen to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast just like you. Listen in to hear how I respond to these listener-submitted questions. A special thank you to all of those who submitted a question and made this episode possible! Additional Links to Show References: Journal on effective handwriting strategies (Related to speed) OT Schoolhouse Podcast Episode 50 - How to get your foot in the door as a new grad OTP Podcast episodes related to sensory processing: OTS 25: How to Conduct An Evaluation Using the Ayres Sensory Integration Model feat. Zoe Mailloux OTS 26: Sensory Integration Treatment and Sensory Strategies in Schools Feat. Kelly Auld-Wright OTS 63: Sensory Integration & Independent Educational Evaluations with Susanne Smith Roley, OTD The A-Z School-Based OT Course The course for all OT practitioners looking to better understand school-based OT. Making the Shift: Caseload to Workload An online workshop helping you and your colleagues move from a caseload model to a workload model in your school-based OT practice. Get the OT Month Handouts With everything you've got going on, trying to promote OT Month can be tough. So, we are making it easy for you. Submit the form below to get your OT Month Tips Handouts that you can share with your school colleagues as a way to share how amazing you are and how you can directly support them and the students. Subscribe below to get your handouts! Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript.   Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast. Your source for school based occupational therapy, tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the OT school house podcast for episode 95 My name is Jayson Davies, and I'm so happy that you are here today with me. We have a very special episode today, no guests, just me and you, and I'm going to be answering some questions. We have about 11 or 12 questions that maybe you submitted, but these questions all come from the OT school house community. Some are going to be voicemails. And there's some questions that I'll read because they came in via an Instagram message or an email, and I want to answer those as well. So we're going to go ahead and do that, but first I want to say that we are just about to kick off ot month here at the OT school house and just in America in general, this is ot month. And well, not quite yet, just a few days from now, if you're listening to this on the day it releases, but we have some special things going on here at the OT school house for ot month. And instead of releasing an episode every other week in the month of April, I will be releasing an episode every week where we are going to do something very special. And, yeah, that's all I'm gonna say right now. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but it's gonna be a lot of fun. And I hope you'll join me the next four Mondays as we celebrate ot month. Also, if you did have a chance to listen to episode 94 I hope that you got your handouts, and I hope you have those ready to go as soon as ot month kicks off. Remember, in Episode 94 we went over 10 different things you can do to celebrate ot month. And part of that, I think it was number four or five, was to use handouts. And I created handouts for you. You don't even have to create them. I created them. All you have to do is go to OT schoolhouse.com . Forward slash episode 94 and you can grab those handouts 100% free. Print them out and leave them out for your teachers. Leave them on their door, whatever it might be. So be sure to check those out at ot  schoolhouse.com . Forward slash episode 94 to get your four handouts with tips from an OT that will help a teacher and that'll also help you build a rapport with your teachers, they're gonna find you helpful, and therefore they're going to know who to go to when they have a question, whether it be about behavior, about handwriting, about fine motor skills and various other areas that we support our teachers in need. All right, so with that, let's go ahead and dive into our first question. We are going to start with a voicemail, and this voicemail comes from Brittany. She has a question about consultation, so let me go ahead press play on this voicemail, and then I will be right back to answer that question, because who knows, maybe you have the same exact question.    Question 1 - Brittany     Hi, Jayson, my name is Brittany, and I had a quick question about ot consultation in the schools. So every time I have a new therapist join my team that's new to school based practice, one of the big questions that they always ask me is what is considered consultation? And obviously, when we think of consultation, we're thinking about, you know, what types of things can we do to support a child to sort of generalize their skill. But what I'm more wondering is, what are some concrete examples of what can be done for consultation time. So for example, is reviewing an IEP. Okay for consultation is observing a student when you're first getting to know them. Okay for consultation is emailing a teacher to check in okay for consultation. So specific, tangible ideas on how consultation time can be delivered would be super helpful. Thank you so much.    Jayson Davies     Hey, Brittany, thank you so much for your question. Thank you for submitting it via voicemail so that we could hear your voice. Not just me reading a question. We do have some of those, but I really appreciate the voicemail. You know what to start off. Consultations are the least restrictive environment that we can provide a service in. We have no direct communication in most cases with the student. During consults, we are only talking to the teacher, maybe other staff members, administrators and sometimes maybe even the parent. There are times where I would actually call it a consult when I am meeting with a student, and that might be more in a high school type of environment or even a middle school environment where I'm meeting with a student, but it's not like I'm providing direct instruction on something, whether it be handwriting or even a direct instruction on what to do with scissors or what to do with sensory strategies, it would be more of a back and forth communication. And I think that's what's also important to realize about consults, is that there needs to be a back and forth. It cannot just be a one way. Communication. So if we're talking about reviewing files, I don't see that as a consultation. I do see that more as a evaluation process, or even just a information gathering process. I wouldn't count that toward consultation minutes. Same thing with observations. Observations can be part of a consult, but it should not be the only part of a consult. If you are going in and observing a student, that's only one way communication, if you want to call it, that you are seeing what the student is doing. But then you need to respond to that in some way, right? You need to let the teacher know what you saw, and then also get feedback from the teacher and go back and forth on that. So emailing a teacher could be part of a consultation, but unless they're emailing you back, I don't necessarily know if that's a consultation, because we need to have that two way conversation going on when I have presented a service in a consultation format, what I typically look for to do is, I think, of a plan of action that we're going to do with the teacher, and then we have that back and forth about it. So we are actually going to implement something. We're not just getting feedback. We're actually implementing something, something such as maybe a self regulation program, such as the zones of regulation, or maybe we are implementing a specific handwriting program for a student, or maybe we're implementing a certain social connectedness program with that student, but you're not the actual one doing it, rather the teacher, or maybe an aide in the classroom is doing it, and you are facilitating that through consultations with that person. So whether it be once a week, once a month, or even quarterly, it would be your role to go in or to email or to even collect data from that person, and then get back to them based upon that data that you're seeing and provide them with additional strategies, and then check up on that a little bit. And then one final note here is that we obviously have to document this. And there have been times where I will document part of a consultation. For instance, if I have maybe a 30 minute consultation per month, I might write a 15 minute consultation for when I wrote an email to the teacher, but I am sure to write in my documentation that I am waiting for a response, and then I might document the other 15 minutes when I get that response back from the teacher, and maybe even email back, like I said earlier, a consultation needs to be a two way street. We can't just receive information and we can't just give information. It needs to be a two way street, and that needs to be reflected within our documentation. So one more time. Brittany, thank you so much for your question, and I hope this helps not only you, but also the new OTs that you have coming in that you work with and and explain consultations. All right, so let's go ahead and move on to our second question. Our second question comes from Krista. This comes via Instagram, and Krista is looking for techniques for working on and improving handwriting speed. So first of all, Krista, thank you so much for your question on Instagram. Really appreciate that. This is a unique question. It's not very often that I get asked either by ot practitioners or by teachers about speed for handwriting, actually. And to be honest with you, I can't actually think of a time that I wrote an IEP goal for the speed of a student writing. And you know, I did a little bit of research when I saw this question, because it's my take that the way to eventually lead to an increase of speed of handwriting is to first improve the handwriting. And as I went back and saw a little research, and I will tag an article or two in the show notes@otschoolhouse.com forward slash episode 95 that when an implementation or when a handwriting task or a handwriting curriculum is implemented, the research actually shows very little improvement in speed and sometimes even a decrease in speed when working on legibility. And so there hasn't actually been research to show long term how increasing legibility or increasing the fundamentals of handwriting could potentially lead to increased speed. However, that's kind of where I would go with this. I think I would start off by making sure that we have those fundamentals of handwriting down, that there is a program, again, being used within the classroom, that they're actually working on this. Because there's so much that goes into the idea of speed, there's motivation, volitional aspects, and you have to be sure that we have those fundamentals down. You know, we forget sometimes, and especially parents and teachers, we find ourselves explaining how many aspects go into handwriting and speed is one of those things that cannot occur until we have the fundamentals down. And so I would start there. I don't have a specific tip for increasing speed. Believe it or not, it's not something that I have actually worked. On. Typically, once we get a student to the point where they can write, to the point where the teacher, the parent, and even the student can read it, and then we kind of move on from there a little bit. It really depends on what's going on with the student. I need a little bit more information. If this is a motivational difficulty, or if we're having difficulty motivating the student, then that might look different, as opposed to if it's something where the student just doesn't have the capability to write legibly, and therefore the speed is difficult. So thank you so much for your question. I'm sorry if that wasn't the answer you're looking for, but I will try and follow up with that again in a future podcast. And for question number three, today, we have one for new grads coming from Danny on Instagram, and Danny wants to know, how do you get your foot in the door as a new grad occupational therapy practitioner? And I think I kind of did this in a way that I would recommend to you as well. And my story is that I started out as a contracted occupational therapist. I worked for a company at the time. It was called my therapy company. It is now part of stepping stones, or stepping stones. Bought them out, and I started there, and that helped me get my foot in the door, because they always seem to be looking for therapists. You might not get to be in the district that you live in or in the community that you live in, but they are always looking for therapists, and oftentimes they will cater or advertise to new grad OTs, whether that's because they feel that they can potentially pay you a little bit less than an experienced OT or because they just feel like they can mentor you and turn you into the occupational therapy practitioner that they want you to be, I'm not quite sure, but It was a great way for me to get my foot in the door, because all the districts were asking for a therapist with years of experience and experience in sensory integration and experience in handwriting curriculum and experience like even up to five years of experience as an OT before they even wanted you to apply. So I worked as a contractor for a year, and then my next tip would be to send out that application, even if you don't necessarily fit the five year experience that they want. That's what I did. I went out on a limb, and even though the district wanted five years of experience in my second job, I only had about a year and a half. And with that, I went ahead and applied, and you know what, I got it. And so don't be afraid to to say, You know what, even though they're looking for a five year person, I'm gonna apply anyways, you never know what might happen. The other thing that I would say is to actually put on your resume that you are listening to an OT podcast for school based OTs. If you've taken my A to Z course, or any of the other courses, or any courses in general that relate to school based OT, add that to your resume. Show your future employer that you really care about school based OT, not just ot in general, but school based OT, and you're willing to take those courses that will make you a better therapist for them, I think that's a great way to also get your foot in the door. You'll stand out just a little bit more. As opposed to maybe a therapist who's coming from another facility, another area of practice that hasn't taken any courses, your resume might stand out just a little bit more. So I think that is a good start to getting your foot in the door. And you know, we did do a podcast on this, I want to say is somewhere in the 40s, with Amanda Clark, we talked about getting a new job as a school based occupational therapist. I definitely recommend checking that out, and I will link to that in the show notes as well. So thank you, Danny, for your question, and best of luck getting your foot in the door as a new grad OT or OT a really wish you the best of luck in that. Now that brings us to a sensory question, straight from Lindsay on Instagram. Lindsay would like some support in implementing sensory in the classroom. She says she doesn't even know where to start. Trust me, Lindsay, you are not alone on this. I get similar questions all the time, and so let's dive into this. First remember what I said about consult about 10 minutes ago. That's very important when it comes to sensory. Another thing that's very important when it comes to sensory is that we need to keep in mind that we should not be implementing any sort of sensory strategies, at least specific sensory strategies, to a student without an evaluation in sensory. So you need to make sure that you actually have an evaluation. This comes straight from one of the A O T, A Choosing Wisely campaigns. Again, I'll link to that in the show notes, that we need to make sure that we're actually evaluating sensory before implementing sensory. Now how do you actually go about doing this? I would use a mix methods, type of service delivery model, where I am both seeing the student in a pull out model as well as in the classroom. So if we're doing maybe a weekly service every other week, I'm seeing the student outside of the classroom, and then on the next week, I'm seeing them in the classroom. That way we're working on. Of we're seeing what works in that clinic, or in that outpatient, whatever you want to call the OT room space. We're seeing what works and trying out new things there and then implementing that into the classroom in a collaborative model where we can work with both the student and the teacher, or even potentially the classroom aides, if they're in there, that way, you can say, You know what? I saw this work last week. Let's see it work in here. And the teacher is going to be watching you, the aides are going to be watching you. They're going to see you be successful and see the student be successful with this strategy. The last thing I would say is try not to give up too early. Make sure that you are actually implementing the sensory strategy, whatever it might be, for at least a month, if not six to eight weeks, before you give up and ask for a little bit of data from the teachers and the age when they're saying, it's not working, you know, it's we have to be nice about it. But to say, you know, hey, I understand what you're saying. I understand that it might be a little tricky to implement in the classroom, but we need to see if it works, and we need to have a little data. I would love to take some data when I'm there with you on those every other weeks, but I might need a little bit more. Can you help me out by taking data even one time a week, and that will help you to determine what is working and what is not working. So Lindsay, I hope that helps give you a place where to start. And I know sensory can be difficult, but I would definitely recommend going and looking for, potentially even a sensory intervention type of training if you haven't done so already. All right, and This now brings us to our fifth question, which is from Nicole about documentation, and Nicole left a voicemail, so let me go ahead and play that, and I will be right back.    Question 2 - Nicole     Hello. I'd like to know your process for documentation after you see a student. So I try to do notes right after each session. For me, it's I'm more in the home, sometimes I'm in the school, sometimes I'm in the clinic. And the students I work with, it can be really difficult to use a computer while I'm seeing them, so typically I don't do point of service. I try and do my notes right after, and if I'm unable to do them right after, I save them for night time. I also have a data sheet for each student and each goal that they have, and on that data sheet, I just write their progress towards that goal and the date. So those are typically the two things I do after I see each client, and I try and do them, you know, if not directly after service, the same night. But what is your process? What kind of tools do you use to keep yourself organized, whether it be data sheets or something else? Thanks.     Jayson Davies     Nicole, thank you so much for this question about documentation. I totally understand the difficulty all of us want to be able to just get our documentation done the second we are done with a session, right? But oftentimes it ends up that we end up doing our documentation later in the day. And I have tried so many different strategies over the years. I do something kind of like what you mentioned, where I will often create a printout by day for each student that I'm seeing and their goals. So I'll have one printout for Mondays, one printout for Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and so forth. And on that Monday sheet, it has the 10 or 12 kids that I'm responsible for that day, and it has kind of the important information that I need to know, such as what the frequency is, and also their goals and maybe a little bit about, maybe where they're coming from, just so I have that refresher in my mind, and I will actually kind of write down, jot down notes directly on that paper each session. And so if a student's absent really quickly, I can just kind of cross them out and I know that they're absent, or add a little note that way I can go back later in the day, because, like you said, it's really hard to do it in the moment. I've been practicing for 10 years now, just about and I still struggled with it. I ended up writing most of my notes later in the day, just like you're saying you do now. I really liked doing that one page per day, but as you can imagine, you end up with a lot of pages. And so if you can turn that into an iPad type of system, great, and if not, then keep it pencil and paper, or pen and paper, other ways that I have tried and just it never caught on for my documentation was actually doing little documents on my phone. I would say, Hey, Siri, write a new note, and I would let Siri actually transpose my note onto my phone, then I could copy and paste that over. I was doing that back when Siri wasn't nearly as good as Siri is today. So that might be worth something to try again. I've also done Google Forms where I created a form where I could just type in really quickly student's name, or I had. Drop down for all the names and then just type it in there real quickly. And that put all of my notes into a spreadsheet, and I could copy and paste those over to another document if I needed to. And one more thing that has really helped of recent is the ability to use text replacement. So as you know, if you're on a phone and you're typing a text message, you get that auto text replacement, like auto correct, or even it wants to type the word for you. Sometimes, if you're writing an email in Gmail and you write hello, it'll automatically, you know, write the rest of your sentence for you. Well, you can actually set that up for yourself and make it customized. And so I used an Apple computer, but I'm pretty sure you can do this on a Windows computer as well. You can set up so that if you type in maybe x, x x, or something like that, it'll automatically replace the x, x x with a treatment note template. And so whatever your note template is, it'll just replace it, and then you just fill in the blanks really quickly. And that's something else you can do. So I hope that gives you a few tips where you can start with documentation. If you're going to go deeper into tracking data, then I would definitely recommend keeping something with you, like what you're doing, a file that you have on you at all times with that student, or an Excel spreadsheet, Google Spreadsheet, whatever it might be. For me, it's really hard to be on a computer and servicing a student, so I like to have the paper printed out, or even the iPad, where it's right there, like pencil and paper, and I can just write on there with an Apple pencil or a stylus. So thank you, Nicole, so much for your question. I hope that helps not only you, but also others that are listening to this podcast episode. Now that brings us to questions, six and seven from Bailey and Jessica. They're kind of similar, so I'm going to read them together and then go through them. Bailey asks, How long are sessions? What are the biggest challenges? And Jessica asks, How do you decide how many minutes a student should receive. So I will tell you that most of my sessions range from if I'm doing a consult 15 minutes a month, although sometimes that ends up being closer to 30 by time you get in contact with everyone you need to and then up to 30 minutes per week, sometimes 30 minutes every other week. I have had students that are more than 30 minutes per week, as much as one hour per week, or two times a week for 30 minutes, but that is not as typical. Now, how do I decide on these minutes? It is very much based on the goals and what I need, or what I think I need, time wise, in order to meet those goals. That is how I derive my services. That's also how I decide what type of services I want to create or want to recommend. I should say, Do I want to do, pull out or push in collaborative console. That's all based on the goals that I have set in place. Now if I have only one goal, then I'm opt to likely go for more of that consultative model. If I have several goals, then maybe I need to be seeing that student more frequently, once a week. It's very rare that I get into that twice a week or even hour long session, but occasionally that does happen. So really it's based upon the goals what I think I need in order to help the student meet those goals and also help the team help the student meet those goals. To answer Bailey's second part of her question about what's the biggest challenge, I would say, you know, the idea of not necessarily knowing if what I recommend is really the right service or the right recommendation for service and time and so, you know, the IEP is a fluid document. It can always change. There have absolutely been times where I recommended a group session for a student and then realized maybe a month in or two or even three months in that this is not the right setting for that student, that I need to see that student individually, or that I need to see that student in the classroom for less or for more time, and that's why we have such things called an addendum or an amendment to the IEP. We can absolutely change our minds. We just need to explain why we are changing our minds. What is the rationale behind changing a student from a group to an individual session, or from 30 minutes to 15 minutes, or 30 to 45 minutes, as long as you can explain it and the IEB team is on board with it, then there's nothing wrong with doing that. So thank you, both Bailey and Jessica for your questions about sessions and and choosing what type of session we might use. All right, so we are just about halfway through all of our questions for today's episode. We're on track for about 45 minutes today, which is perfect. That's exactly what I wanted to do. And you know, let's just take a quick break if you are not driving and you're doing something where you can use your hands, I would love for you to hop on Instagram or Facebook, whatever that might be, even email. That's the easiest way for you. And. And just let me know you're listening. And also ask a question. If you have a specific question, how can I help you? I would love to know, and maybe we'll answer your question on a future podcast episode. You can also submit questions that you have via voicemail at ot  schoolhouse.com , forward slash question. You can leave me a quick voicemail, just like the ones you've heard today, and I will get back to you on a podcast episode to answer your question. So let's now dive into our next question from Anna on Instagram. Anna is wondering what a typical treatment session might look like, and how one chooses the activities that are used. She primarily pointed to individual sessions. So I'm going to start there. Now what's nice about individual sessions is that it really gives us the freedom and the control to really create a session that we want to create. We are not pressured by what's going on in the classroom. We don't have to try and be quiet while working with a student in the classroom, in a group. There's not external forces to have to try and work with, right? Sometimes you have that student that student that really needs a little more support today, and so you might be focusing on that student as opposed to the other two students. So with an individual session, we have a lot more control. Now with that said, while we have control, we can't do the same thing every single time. Every student needs something a little bit different, and we need to cater it around them. Now, if you look back at the history of research and occupational therapy, you see kind of two camps. You see the camp that says, hey, if you work on fine motor skills, then that will lead to increased in other occupation based areas, such as handwriting, ADLs and so forth. And then you have the other camp of research that says, No, not necessarily true. Just because you work on fine motor skills doesn't mean you are going to increase occupation. You need to go directly and target that occupation. Now, again, that doesn't mean that if a student's goal is to write letters A through Z, you're just going to sit there and write letters A through Z the entire session, every session. No, that's not what that means, but there is indeed a way to work on handwriting through handwriting. Maybe you're not using pencil and paper, but you're using an iPad app. Maybe you're not using pencil and paper, but you're using sand and a stick, right? That's still in a way, using handwriting, but you're also incorporating play to work on those skills. Now, within a typical session, I would say, for the most part, especially an individual session, I would start with some form of a quick warm up, not just to quote, unquote, get the fingers warmed up or whatnot, but also that rapport establishment, which is so important, therapeutic use of self, getting myself involved, making sure that the student understands that I'm really there for them, that they can trust me, that we're going to make some progress today, then I would dive into whatever my activity is that's going to somehow revolve around that goal I just mentioned a few potentially to do with handwriting. But maybe the goal is to cut out simple shapes. If that's the case, then maybe we're not cutting out simple shapes, but we're doing some sort of activity that's that incorporates bilateral hand integration and maybe also uses scissors to do something fun. And then maybe at the end of the session, I might actually measure the goal. Now I don't necessarily measure the goal every single time. We are not required to measure the goal every single time, we do need to somehow show data over time, so maybe once a month I'll measure the goal, or as we get close to progress reports, I'll make sure to measure the goal. But you don't necessarily need to measure the goal in every single session, so I guess that kind of puts together what my typical session might look like. For an individual pull out session would be a warm up, then an activity that really focuses on the goal in some way, and then maybe some documentation of data at the end to see whether or not there is some progress being made toward the actual goal. Great question, though, Anna, you really made me think about how I actually structure my interventions, and so I appreciate that. All right, we got about four more questions that we're going to get to today, and I really hope all of these questions are helping every single one of you. These are great questions, and I'm excited to be able to answer them for you all. This next question comes from Tiffany, and she submitted a Google Form. Tiffany, the question was a little long, so I'm going to paraphrase here. I hope you don't mind, but really, Tiffany is interested in understanding how to become a more confident therapist. She's having some difficulty with working with the teachers within the school, and she also really wants to understand sensory a little bit more, and asks how she can go about understanding sensory especially since she's getting a lot of cases revolving around sensory and kids who are having difficulty with processing sensory and integrating sensory stimuli. So with that, first, I want to say this is not about faking it until you're making it, but you do need to believe it until you achieve it. And we need to we need to know what we can do and what we can't do. I love that you are listening to the podcast. I love that you want to learn more, and I would absolutely recommend that you do learn more and go beyond just the OT school house podcast. There are some episodes that we've done with people such as like Zoe Mayu and Susanne Smith, Rowley and Kelly, alt right, that we've talked about sensory I believe those are episode 2526 and somewhere in the 70s or 80s. I'll link to those again in the show notes. But start there and then decide what type of sensory type, of course, you want to go and do. There's the star center, and there is the CLASI. And there's a lot of different sensory trainings out there that you can go to and I would highly recommend picking one and going through that one. I went through the SI, PT, the sensory integration and Praxis test course, when that was available. That's no longer available, but there are kind of like the big three out there, which is the star center, the CLASI, and then also the USC, University of Southern California courses for sensory integration. Those would be a great place to start. Or you can even start with more of a one off course that you might find on occupational therapy.com , or summit the education at Summit education.org I think it is, or.com so there are some one off courses that you can do as far as feeling more confident, that will help but also, I think what will help you feel more confident is that if you get into the classroom and provide a few quick wins for the teachers, they're going to see what you can do, and they're going to feel more confident in you, and you're going to, in turn, feel more confident in yourself. So by getting into those classrooms, building that rapport with the teacher, also building the rapport with the students, you're going to feel a little bit better about what you are doing. And so I recommend kind of getting started with that. I love that you truly believe that you're supposed to be in the schools. That's awesome. I'm sure you do. It's a great place to be, and I really hope that you continue to build in your confidence moving forward. The same thing with everyone listening to this podcast. That's the podcast. That's the whole reason this podcast exists, so that you can feel better, more confident, and be more effective in your practice as a school based occupational therapy practitioner. And now we have one final voicemail question, and this one comes from Danielle. Danielle is in Hawaii, and just her voicemail just makes me want to be in Hawaii. Just feel like it's so Hawaii in her voicemail, you're gonna hear that in a second, and she wants to know a little bit about how we can support teachers. So let me press play, and then I'll be right back    Question 3 - Danielle     Aloha from Hawaii. This is Danielle. My question is, what top three activities, exercises, you know, what can general education teachers do in their classroom to support students who need ot support?    Jayson Davies     Aloha, Danielle and thank you for your question. Next time I'm in Hawaii, we are definitely going to have to talk more about this, because this, when I listen to your question, screams out to me. RTI, MTSS, which we do have other episodes about, and I see that you want to help those general education teachers, which is amazing. This is where I think the future of occupational therapy is going, because I think we're going to help more students in less time. You know, one on one, sessions are never going to go away. Individualized therapy will never go away. But what can we do for the teachers, especially those general education teachers, to help them support their students, so that maybe there's a few of them who might need ot in the future who won't need ot in the future, because we are giving those strategies up front. So to answer your question, what are my three big things, my three activities, my three exercises that I will often recommend to teachers, well, the first one that I always go to, because I really do believe it's important, is seating, not necessarily proper seating. You know, you think of like the 9090, 90 rule, but comfortable seating. We need to make sure that our students are comfortable so that they can actually get work done. Now, what does that look like? That looks like at least taking a mindful approach to looking at the students and just sharing with the teachers. Hey, as you're walking around the classroom, here's a few things that you can look for, because these will also impact behavior, as well as legibility when writing and so many other skills that students do in the classroom, so things like making sure that the that the kid can actually reach the ground while they're sitting in their chair, making sure that they're that the desk isn't like at eye level, and the kids trying to write with their hand up in the air, simple things like that, and then giving them a few accommodations that they can do really quickly, such as turning the trash can on its side and putting that under the student's desk so that they have something to put their feet on. Yes, it's only a temporary solution, but now that teacher is going to say, okay, what can I do to replace that trash can? And they're gonna come up with their own ideas. They don't even necessarily need your support. They will go from there. So that's tip number one that I like to do with teachers. I'm. Of the things that I like to do with teachers is to incorporate movement. So sometimes I will recommend a few different YouTube channels that incorporate yoga or other types of movement breaks, and let them know about that a little bit. And then the third thing that I really encourage teachers to think about is that just right challenge. And I kind of frame this around the kids who they feel need a little bit more support, right? In a general education classroom, the idea is that everything's the just right challenge, right? The kids are at third grade. They need to be working on third grade level work, but we know that there's going to be a few kids in that classroom that are struggling a little bit, and so just to be a little mindful about thinking about what accommodations might be able to be put in place when we see those two or three kids that are struggling just a little bit, how can we make their life a little bit easier so that the student knows that we're actually thinking about them and we're caring about them, and when I use the word we, I'm not just talking about us, OTPs, but the entire school, making them feel like we actually Understand them a little bit, because we do understand them a little bit, and we know that they're struggling. How can we support them just a little to boost their own confidence and to boost their ability to feel like they belong at school? So I hope those three things help a little bit, and I'd love to hear what you are doing with your general education teachers. Again, I find RTI, MTSS that idea of tiered intervention getting into the general education classrooms, fantastic. I see it as the future of OT and so, yeah, thank you for that question. I really appreciate it. And that's kind of a perfect segue to this next question, which comes from Meredith. And I like the bigger picture that Meredith is thinking here. And Meredith says I'm planning a huge presentation soon on all of my campuses. It will include what all school based OTs do, advocating for our students and the education to to school staff. I'm reaching out because she wants to know if I have any advice for helping her have a bigger voice in this movement. And when she uses the word movement, I kind of see that as being the RTI movement, which we just talked about a moment ago with Danielle from Hawaii. And I love this. This is something that I actually teach in my A to Z school based ot course, when we go through our RTI module, and it's how to get teachers on board a little bit. And I love the idea of doing a presentation for all the teachers at every school site that is tier one intervention. I think that's a great idea. What I would say, as far as bolstering your voice when it comes to that presentation, is, don't make it research heavy. Keep it quick and to the point, make it actionable. When you're coming up with the title, make sure that you are showing what exactly the teachers are going to get through that title, something like 10 things to do related to this, or the five things that OTs can support you with, something that's very easy to digest. And then, as I mentioned, I think just a second ago, make sure it's not too research heavy. One thing that I learned by going to conferences with my wife, who was a teacher, she's now an administrator, was that when she goes to conferences, her sessions are a lot shorter than sessions of OT conferences. You know, a lot of times we go to conferences and we expect a session to sometimes be two hours, three hours long, and that is not the case when I go to the conference with her. A lot of her sessions are, like, 50 minutes, and they're very quick. They're very action oriented, and yes, they show a little bit of the research, but it's not like they're there to to really dive into theory, you know, teachers want actionable things that they can do right now. And so if you can give them that, you're going to give, give them those quick wins, and they're going to remember you. They're going to remember what more you can do for them, and they're going to come back to you when they have a next question. And that's kind of why I again, in the last episode, Episode 94 I provided some handouts for you that you can create that quick win for a teacher by just leaving these handouts, potentially in the lounge or something that's really easy. Don't overthink it. Make it simple, make it digestible, and give the teachers what they need. Be sure that you're asking the teachers what they need before you do your presentation right. We want to know what do they need help with so that we can give them the answers they need, not just general questions or not just general answers, I guess so. Meredith, thank you so much for your question, and I really do hope that helps you get the ball rolling on your training, your in service for the teachers. I think it's fantastic that you're going to do that. And yeah, let me know how it goes when it happens, because I'd love to hear if it made progress, and how you're kind of tracking whether or not that progress is being made. Make sure that you have some sort of potential data point, even if it's just like how many referrals are coming in, so that you can kind of show your administrator. Hey, look, I did this training, and now I'm getting less referrals. I need to make sure that I'm doing this training. On a yearly basis, so we can keep this up all right now, this brings us to our final question for episode 95 and this comes from Emily. And Emily is actually a learner in my A to Z school based ot course, and as such, she submitted this question as part of our A to Z school based ot collaboration hours, which is a collaboration hour that we hold on Zoom every other week, where we come together and can ask me questions and work together as a team a little bit to help each other out. And so this is a a zoom call that we do, that you get access to when you're part of the A to Z school based ot course. So if you're interested in having more questions that I can help you with then check out the A to Z school based ot course at ot  schoolhouse.com , forward slash A to Z. And so Emily asks, When taking on a new student with outdated goals and a soon approaching IEP meeting, can I update the goals without doing a comprehensive re evaluation my school IEP team tells me a brief informal assessment is enough. And the second part of Emily's question is this, what if Teacher reports new areas of concern, and I have limited time to access this new area, can I assess at a later time and try to write an IEP goal based upon the information that I have? So let's tackle the first part first where, what do you do when you take on a new student, potentially with some outdated goals? I think you're right on track here. Your IEP team is on track with you to say, You know what, let's update those goals. We don't need to do a full reevaluation, unless maybe it's a triennial has passed and OT was skipped for whatever reason. Then yes, let's do an evaluation. But either way, we should get started with new goals, and in order to do that, we should still get data on the old goals and then transition forward, even if a goal is potentially two years old, that doesn't mean that it has been tracked or that it has been met, and we need to know so really quickly, as quick as we can, maybe in a single session, get some data on those goals, and then at the IEP, or even an addendum, as we talked about earlier, you can update those goals. All right, you don't need a full reevaluation, unless it is time for a reevaluation. Now, in the second part of your question, Emily, you asked, What if a teacher reports new areas of concern and you have limited time to assess the new student? I think you actually started to answer your own question just fine, you know, go into that IEP, update those goals, and then if people bring new questions, new concerns to you, then you can stay at the IEP meeting. You know what? I didn't realize these were concerns. I have seen this and this, or I haven't seen this or that, but I would love to get more information for you and bring that back to the IEP team. Now, whether or not that's going to be a formal evaluation, that's up to you and the IEP team to feel out if you need a full evaluation, but maybe you just need to have a few sessions with that student, and you can figure it out from there. There are some cases where you might need to do a full evaluation. If it's something related to sensory like we talked about earlier, we shouldn't be implementing sensory interventions without having a sensory based evaluation. So you might need a full evaluation, or at least a an evaluation that looks more into the sensory before implementing those strategies. So I hope that helps your question, Emily, and for everyone listening, I hope that answers at least one question that you had about school based OT, because, yeah, as I even mentioned, I think back in the third question about handwriting speed, that's not something that I had thought about, and so that's something that I need more information on. You know, there's always something more to learn. And by asking questions, if one person asks a question, it's very likely that another person has the same questions. So that's how I feel about questions. So I'm so happy to all of you that did submit a question, and if you didn't, that's okay too. Maybe you just weren't sure how this was going to work. This is the I think this is the first time I've done like a Q A on the podcast. But now that you know, go ahead and submit your voicemail question at ot  schoolhouse.com forward slash question, and maybe you will hear your question here on the OT school house podcast, along with a little answer from myself or maybe someone else. Maybe we'll have another guest to answer some questions. Who knows? We'll keep doing this, though, a little bit I've enjoyed this. I hope you have as well. I hope this helps you in your endeavors as a school based occupational therapist or a school based occupational therapy assistant. I really appreciate having you here today, and I look forward to supporting you further. Stay tuned for ot month, when we are going to have four very special episodes every single Monday coming out in the month of April. I'm excited for that. I'm going to do something that is very popular, but I'm going to do it in my own way, the only way that I know how, via a podcast. So stick around for that, and I will see you in the first Monday of April. Take care everyone. Have a great rest of your day, and I will see you next time bye.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT schoolhouse podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otsoolhouse.com Until next time class is dismissed Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen where you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 93 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. In this episode of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, we are joined by Angela Provenzano, OTD Student, to discuss kinship families and what we should know as school-based OTs who support students who may be a part of a kinship family. Angela is going to share her experiences as being a member of a kinship family, what the research says about both the children and the guardians in kinship families, and how she is now supporting those who find themselves as kinship guardians. Links to Show References: KinshipCaregiversConnect.com Angela’s Linkedin Page Kinship Connections: How schools can partner with kinship families Free 90-minute online training hosted by the Family Engagement Center at The Ohio State University - March 2022 Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator Hello and welcome to the OT Schoolhouse podcast, your source for school-based occupational therapy, tips, interviews, and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies, class is officially in session, Jayson Davies Hey, everyone, and welcome to episode 93 of the OT Schoolhouse podcast. My name is Jayson Davies, and I am your host today and forever. Thank you so much for being here today, I want to paint a picture for you. And that is that you walk into an IEP, you sit down at the table, you're talking with the administrator, the SLP. And then the next thing you know, you know, you're about to invite the parent or guardian in and someone comes in maybe they're a little bit older than what you might imagine them to be. And you kind of get the sense that they're not the students, parents, maybe they're the students, grandparents. How do you respond when that happens? That's what we're going to talk about today with Angela Provenzano. She's an occupational therapy doctorate student and she's about to graduate a few months from now. And she's going to come on and talk today about kinship families, and really dive into what's called Grand families. And that is when the grandparent takes responsibility for the child. And this does happen if it hasn't happened yet. I guarantee as an occupational therapist, it will happen, you will be sitting across the table from a grandparent of a student. And you need to know a little bit about what's going on in both the student’s life and that grandparent’s life. So that's what we're going to talk about today. Now, stick around have a great listening experience to this podcast with Angela Provenzano. But also, if you're listening to this episode, within the first week that it is coming out, I want you to know that we are having an event with Angela about a week after this podcast goes live, where she's gonna come on and actually do a live Q and A. So look in the show notes for a link to that live Q and A. Or if you're listening to this a little bit later, we will be sure to upload the recording of that Q and A If you'd like to learn a little bit more about kinship families and grand families. So I hope you enjoy the episode. And yeah, I hope to see you at the q&a event or in the replay for that Q and A event. Enjoy this interview. Hey, Angela, welcome to the OT Schoolhouse podcast. How are you doing today? Angela Provenzano I'm great. I'm so happy to hear. Thanks for having me. Jayson Davies Yeah, I'm so happy to have you as well, you know, you originally reached out to me and you're telling me about something that is just really quite something that I had never heard of before I had experienced in my practice as a school-based OT. But I had never thought more about that. And that is kinship families. And so we're going to talk about that in just a little bit. But first, I want to give you a moment to share a little bit about yourself, maybe how you found OT or maybe how OT found you and where you are at right now in your OT career. Angela Provenzano Sure. So currently, I'm a graduate student at The Ohio State University. So Go Bucks. And I will be graduating in May of 2022, which can't come fast enough for me. So yeah, I chose OT I found out about it in high school from like a random friend’s neighbor and a random conversation which I feel like how it is for most people. And then an undergraduate, I attended Mississippi State University. And I studied educational psychology. So for a while, I was going between psychology and OT actually. But I loved the holistic perspective that OTs can take and the number of different settings we can work in. So yeah, I landed here, and now I'm doing some non-traditional stuff, but have also really enjoyed learning about all parts of occupational therapy. Jayson Davies Awesome. You know, I actually want to dive into educational psychology. What was that? Like when you're going through that program? What did you learn? And yeah, like, what were your plans when you're doing that? Angela Provenzano It was very cool. I think it's like a very unique major, but we pretty much learn about the psychology of learning. So it very much applies to occupational therapy. We learned cognitive theories, behavioral theories, and also in the schools how kids can best learn. So it was a very different perspective. And I think the learning theories I learned there have really helped me in OT because we are teachers of different skills. Jayson Davies Very cool. And so would that have eventually led you to potentially being like a school psychologist? Angela Provenzano Yeah, a lot of people go into counseling or school psychology from educational psychology. It's very theory-based. It's not very applicable as like science itself. But many people do end up working in school systems or counseling settings. Jayson Davies Awesome. Well, we're lucky to have you and especially have you with that educational background, because I'm sure that is going to like you mentioned all those theories, all that information that you learned is going to carry over into your OT career. So that's awesome. All right. So now let's dive into the kinship families. And to do that tell us about how you landed on the topic of kinship families. Angela Provenzano So it kind of has found me For a long time, and I always say this is a long story, but I hope you all enjoy just the perspective that I have coming in here. So my grandparents have actually raised my cousin from about age five to age 15. And that was their grandson. So I've got to see a kinship care dynamic, just growing up in everything that came with that. And I do like to tell this story because I think it's very illustrative. In the last conversation I had with my grandma, she actually was diagnosed with stage four, lung cancer. And I knew this would probably be the last time I would talk to her and think about how it would go. And like one of the last things she said to me, like even struggling to talk was like, make sure Damien's school uniforms are ordered on time. So I think that just shows how intricate the role is to one's identity. Once you step into that, that was like one of the last things she was thinking about talking to me. And at that moment, I'm like, I need to do more with this. Because I can't be home and help my own family. But I want to learn about this on a bigger level and help others. And after this, my cousin went to live with my parents after she had passed away. So that's an aunt and uncle raising a nephew. So it's still very much in my family. And I get those late-night calls sometimes of stress. But yeah, so Well, I was studying educational psychology, I actually joined a grand family’s research lab. And we looked at large national data, and like psychological outcomes for this population. So I learned about it on a theory and research level. But coming into OT school at Ohio State, I really wanted to get the opportunity to work with kinship caregivers. So at that, I applied for the Albert Schweitzer Fellowship, which is a one-year small grant to start a community program. And this was right after COVID had hit as well. So I started kinship caregivers Connect, which is an online support group for kinship caregivers. And I've gotten to meet caregivers twice a week now for the last year and a half, which has been so incredible. And just like such a joy of mine. And I've also looked for other opportunities to support kinship families as well. So I'm currently in a research lab with Dr. Ramona Denby, who's actually at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, now she was at Ohio State, kind of looking at the Child Welfare side of things more. And then I'm also completing my capstone project on kinship care. So everything I do is very much in this area. But I'm working with the Ohio statewide Family Engagement Center Ohio State, and developing professional development for educators of all different types around supporting and engaging kinship families within the schools because I feel like the school system can be such a support to these families. So it's a long story, but that is how I learned today. Jayson Davies Yeah, we're gonna break that down here. But to get started, you mentioned two terms during that, that I kind of want to let you dissect a little bit. The first was kinship family, what is a kinship family? And yeah, just dive into that. Angela Provenzano So a kinship family is when the primary caregiver is a relative, that's not the birth parent of a child. So the most common dynamic we see is our grandparents raising grandchildren, and they make up about 65% of kinship caregivers. But you can also have aunts and uncles raising nieces and nephews, you can have cousins, or even siblings raising family members. And there's also something called fictive kin, which is when a family friend steps in as the primary caregiver. And this could be with or without the birth parents still present. But a lot of these arrangements, the birth parent is not still living with the child. So... Jayson Davies and so obviously, when I think most of us when we think of families where the child is not with the birth parent, we typically think of foster families, I think, at least that's my experiences. So this is obviously different from a foster family. What are some of the similarities? And then obviously, the difference? Well, I don't know, are these kids technically in a foster situation? Or is this completely separate? Angela Provenzano This is a lot different. There are a few instances actually only about 5% of kinship families are licensed, foster caregivers. So many of these people are not, do not go through the foster system to care for their children. And the reason for this is kinship care is often a way to keep kids out of the foster care system. So if CPS gets like a call, that a child might need to be removed from their home the first people they'll call or the relatives and be like, can you take this kid in or we're gonna have to put them in the foster system. So it's kind of seen as the first line of defense because it is a lot better for a child to go with a relative compared to a stranger and there are better outcomes related to like permanency and stability, as well. But another key difference is kinship. Families are not supported or prepared like foster families are when you typically think of it. So a lot of times foster families will have to go through training to get licensed and kind of have a timeline of when a kid might be placed with them. And they also get monthly payments for being a foster family. But for kinship families, a lot of the time it's just a call On the Dine like I've heard so many stories, they get a call like you have to come and get the kids that night, they get the kids and they come back with whatever they could fit in a suitcase. So it's definitely normally an unplanned situation. And also they receive a lot less funding than foster families, it differs from state to state. But like a foster family, a national statistic might receive $500 a month per child whereas a kinship family might receive $250 a month. And that's not even like doubled per child, it's just increased a little bit. So there's definitely a lack of support. And also like those family ties make it different too because it's likely like your son or daughter who you have to take the kid away from. So there's a lot of like, less strict boundaries with that. So a lot there. Jayson Davies Yeah. And the other term that you mentioned, and I think you kind of answered this already, but grand families, I'm assuming that means that when the grandparents take the child, Angela Provenzano yeah, so grand families are just when the grandparent is ahead of the child. It also is sometimes used interchangeably with kinship families, since that's like the most common arrangement that people can relate to. But yes, Jayson Davies gotcha. And you said only about 5% of these kinship families actually become licensed foster, I don't even know how the system works, but only 5% or so actually go through a foster type of system. Yes. And that's because they might not have the information about it to start and then it's too late. Because once they're out off of caseload for CPS, you can't go back. And also the licensing process takes a while and it can be an expense. And there might be barriers. I think, with the process going online, it might be more accessible now. But it has been very something very difficult for caregivers to do. Jayson Davies Well. And so what does it look like for the parent or for the grandparents or maybe the aunts and uncles that taken that student? Or that child, you said that you know, sometimes they only get to pack up whatever they can fit into the car and go and that's the last of it. But beyond that, what are the next few weeks even potentially look like for that grandparent or that new caregiver? Angela Provenzano Yeah, so this time of transition is really hard. And I think the word I might use a lot today is trauma, which is not a fun word. But that's just the reality of how these families start. And also, there is a lot of other feelings with the process. But a lot of times the kids have gone through trauma in some way. And the most common reason a child might get reported is because of neglect. So that's the most common type of maltreatment, we have to remember, a lot of times these parents are struggling with mental health issues and substance abuse. So these are like lifelong struggles. Or maybe the parent has passed away too. So when this kid is picked up by a kinship, caregiver, they're not in like a regulated or good state, because it is a traumatic thing. And even to be taken away from a parent is a traumatic thing as well. And it's also traumatic for the caregiver, because like I said, they might be the one that has to call Children's Services on their son or daughter or the one that has to go pick it up and try to set boundaries with their son or daughter. So it's like a very chaotic time. And on top of caregivers, a lot of them that having the financial means to just be raising a couple of kids all of a sudden, because sometimes it can be like three kids at once. I've heard of caregivers having up to like five or six kids. So it's just a lot there to start. And they're navigating a lot of systems at once trying to figure out how they can be supported, but the systems are not normally catered towards them. So I think that the reason that school can be so helpful is like they're in the child's life from the start. And it is some sense of stability. And hopefully, that's not as much of a transition as other things. But yet, the beginning of it is, I think a shock to everyone involved. Jayson Davies Yeah. And you know, you bring up a good point, too, is that I think we might often think that a child goes into kinship or foster care because there is a death of their parent. But that is not always the case. A lot of times, it's more of a different type of situation that you were talking about that is going to bring trauma with it. Are there numbers related to like kind of what the I don't know, not the top reasons? But is there any data behind that? Angela Provenzano Yeah, I mean, it's well-cited that the top reasons children go into kinship care are because the parent struggles with mental health, illness, or substance abuse and honestly, kinship care kind of came out of the opioid epidemic in like the 70s and 80s is when it started becoming recognized as a thing. So those are heavily like most cited the common reasons and as I said, the most commonly cited reason for a maltreatment report or anything like that is due to neglect, which has also been linked to poverty as well. So there are a lot of socio-economic factors that I think come into play with the formation of kinship families, too. Jayson Davies Yeah. And then so as the grandparents, the aunts, the uncles, I mean, is it almost on a whim that they go and just kind of pick up the child and bring them home with them? And then after that, is there a true system to go through like to make this formal, and do they go through it? Or do they just kind of take on the role of a guardian? Angela Provenzano Yeah. So I will say definitely differ status stay in a situation to situation. Sometimes, as I said, they'll get a call from Child Protective Services and go through that way. Sometimes it's something they've noticed as time goes on. Like with my grandparents, they've noticed that he was missing school or things weren't looking right. So then they started having him on weekends and then took him full time. So sometimes it is more gradual and planned. But sometimes caregivers don't know at all what's going on with that child until they get that call. And it is even more so overnight. And there are really not many systems in place at all. If you go through Child Protective Services, then, like I said, becoming a foster family, you have a lot more options. But without that, I mean, families can get legal custody themselves privately. But that also is an expensive thing to do to have higher private lawyers get custody. And a lot of people do end up going that way. And then another option is to just never have custody. And it's kind of an informal relationship, which is actually my parents, and my grandparents never had legal custody of my cousin. So there's no like legal thing, binding him to them. But they've been able to like navigate the system and his mom is still, able to sign things over and in his life in that way, as well. So it's very different from family to family. But the sad thing is, there's really no universal system to fall back on. A lot of times, it's just Alright, I'm going to get the kids and then what's next, and then figuring it out day by day for really the next like 15 years or 18 years, depending on how old the kid is. Jayson Davies Yeah. Because I mean, I've been in situations where I'm at an IEP, Individualized Educational Program for a student, and the grandparent is there, the uncles there, whoever it might be, and one of the questions that we have to ask is, do you have educational rights in order to sign this IEP? And sometimes we get a yes or no, but other times, we kind of get a gray answer. And we are responsible for trying to figure out who has the educational rights in order to sign this IEP. And so it sounds like there may be some kinship families that never really established that because it's almost kind of almost on the side. It's not even formally recognized. It's just kind of the, you know, this kid is living with the grandparent, and the state doesn't even know that. Because, yeah, so is that common? Angela Provenzano That is pretty common. I will say a lot of people do end up getting custody just for those reasons. But some people are afraid to take their son and daughter or daughter to court to get custody or they don't want to put them through that. Or they're afraid that the court might give them back to their parents. So there are just so many things to think about on the legal side of things that aren't even on our radar at all. And it can be like a very stress-inducing process, and very, hard to navigate and make those decisions as well. Because once it's done, it's like permanent. And you don't really reverse it either. So yeah. Jayson Davies Wow. All right. So let's talk a little bit about the research and relationship to the caregivers. What are they bringing on? And what has some of the research shown you the difficulties for the caregivers themselves? Angela Provenzano Sure. So it's obviously a huge role transition and research sadly shows, but it's unsurprising that kinship caregivers do experience more depressive symptoms, higher anxiety, and more physical health compared to nonkinship caregivers, their age. And I think a lot of it has been tied to lack of social support, lack of financial support, and also tied to the aging process as well. For grandparents, there's a lot of stresses and strains, but pretty much their whole life has to change. And I know we talk about occupational deprivation and OT and I think that's like the perfect word for this. Because a lot of them who have been working, won't be able to work and afford childcare, because childcare is a whole another problem that can be so expensive. So they actually might have to quit their job and live off like state benefits in order to even provide care for these children. Whereas other people might have to take extra shifts and struggle with raising kids while working two jobs that they never planned for or expected to. And then thinking about like now you have to wake up for school and get everyone on the bus and do pickups and drop-offs. And like your whole world changes and not having support and that and feeling alone in it. And not being able to relate to other parents that might be within the school system too is a very hard thing. So running the support group, the most powerful thing has just been to see like not even the resources, just seeing what it means to know that you're not alone in it. And there is a lot of unsaid guilt and shame from society and people who are in these situations, just because people don't really know what's underneath it. So anyway to like bring that to light and just normalize the things that caregivers often go through in their kids is very helpful. So yeah, Jayson Davies I mean, their life is changing. It brings a whole new meaning. Then it takes a village to raise a child, right? I mean, whole new, whole new changes, you know, that child is no longer reliant on their parents, they're relying on the grandparent, and I'm sure the grandparents are relying on their circle of community to help them as much as they can. I mean, hopefully, aunts and uncles are also helping and friends as well. Well, you mentioned trauma for the students. Are those the primary findings of the research when it comes to the children, are there other findings, the difficulties that the children have? Angela Provenzano Sure, yeah, trauma is definitely a common finding, which just comes out of the circumstances they've been in. But it has shown in relation to school, especially, and just in general, children and kinship care show for behavioral outcomes, which I think can very much be tied to trauma as well, and poor academic performance. But the good thing is, children and kinship families do fair better than children in foster families. So although it's worse than the overall population, like that's why kinship families are so important as well, they definitely do. A lot of them need extra support, especially in a time of transition. And interesting Lee as well, children, kinship care, and more likely to have a diagnosis of autism, ADHD, and a learning disability as well, which I've so much seen in my support group, like when we talk about this topic, I think like 75, at least percent of caregivers have a kid with some sort of diagnosis. So it's definitely not uncommon for children in kinship care to need some extra support in schools and that at home as well. Jayson Davies I am wondering why that might be. I mean, we know that autism is not a result of trauma, right? We know that ADHD is not a result of trauma, per se. But obviously, trauma is a big part of these children's life. Do you think that on the flip side, and this is hard to even discuss, but do you think on the flip side, that the parents might have struggled also because the children have this disability and they just didn't know what to do? Angela Provenzano Yeah, I think that can definitely be a factor. And I think a lot of these could be hereditary as well, because a lot of the caregivers can struggle with, especially like ADHD, or other things, and even mental illness to with like the parents. But it is pretty surprising. I think dysregulated sensory systems come into play a lot. And I know that ties into trauma, and I know that can manifest in different ways in school, as well. So I think sensory is kind of a key component and just how a kid can process the environment when they're in like fight or flight mode, that might affect their school performance. But I'm not sure of the root cause of it. It is just very, very interesting to see. Jayson Davies Yeah, definitely. All right. Yeah, that, you know, thank you for that answer. What the kids, you know, they went through a big change of their life. How does that impact them within the educational system? Do we see any research or even just stories that you have heard from the grandparents about how those children deal with a change within the school? Angela Provenzano Sure. I will say like, in general, children and kinship care, there's not a ton of research around it, which was a little sad for me to see like in coming into my capstone and all that, but I definitely have common stories and experiences to share. And a lot of the times like that time of transition is really hard. One grandparent said like she had to go to the school and tell them like, I'm the caregiver now. And like he's living with me, but you didn't want to switch school districts or anything. So it was up to the grandparent to kind of inform the school about the situation, which I think can be pretty common since there's no really systematic way to do that for the school. So starting with that interaction, but for kids, I think sometimes they might have to end up switching schools, depending on where the caregiver lives. So that can be one transition. And like I said, I think the biggest thing that comes up is just raising children who have been through trauma and might have like dysregulated systems in doing struggle with behavior or do struggle with like the emotional side of things, especially if they haven't been in therapy like they probably haven't been in therapy at all leading up to like this transition. So they're pretty much starting from square one. And I think any communication the schools can have with the caregivers can be so helpful because so much of the transition is unknown, but this is something that they can know like how their kids are doing in school and what supports are being used. But a lot of the struggles are just feeling connected to that school community. Because it can be a stigma, like one grandparent said, Whenever she walks in a room, she just doesn't know where she stands. And also like the other parents can make small talk with her at soccer games, but she knows it will never go beyond that just because of maybe how society views grandparents in general and you're in a different situation and other parents. So I think really becoming a part of the commute school community can be really difficult. And also trying to get the support for those kiddos who want to get anything in place as soon as possible. But like the reality is the IEP process is long, the 504 plan process is long, anything like that can take a long time. But a lot of these kids do struggle in school, especially at the initial transition. Jayson Davies Wow. Yeah, I know that stigma, that was what I was going to ask you a little bit about because I can only imagine as a parent having to muster up the confidence to walk into a school and tell the secretary like how do you even tell a school that you are now going to be the parent of this student? And without, you know, people might ask why. And I could imagine that just being the most difficult question asked, not just because, you know, when you answer that question, if you choose to, you are not just talking about yourself, and the child that the grandparent is taking in, but you are also then having the conversation about the middle person, the grandparents, child, and the child's mother or father. And who knows, I mean, sometimes the Secretary or the principal at that school may be very familiar, because that child or the middle person, the mother, father may have gone to that school, or I mean, there's just so many factors that I can imagine would make it difficult for the grandparent to explain. Yeah, I'm taking over control of the student's life, or Angela Provenzano Yeah, and I think we have to remember, it's like a traumatic thing for the grandparents really, as well. And even any, like, the simplest of questions can just be complex. So I think that's why creating a safe environment. And just getting to know these grandparents, as caregivers can be so helpful, and kind of casting away any judgment, like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That's like the worst mindset to have. But I think caregivers can feel that sometimes. And also, on the other side of things. I was talking to my cousin about this recently, and he said, in school kids would always ask, like, why are you being raised by your grandparents? And he was like, I hated that question so much, because like, I don't want to have to answer that every time and relive, like, my past childhood as well. So there's a lot there. Jayson Davies Yeah, I mean, as children, we take, not the responsibility, but we take pride in who our parents are. And on the flip side, parents take pride in their children. And so grandparents had to not speak down about their child who was taking care of the grandchild. But that puts everyone in a really tough situation when people ask that question. And so I'm glad you're on here because that's the type of thing that we need to know that we have to be very mindful of, and very careful of when we are in an IEP. And to know that, you know, if we see a grandparent sitting across the table from us, we need to be mindful. And so that's where I want to kind of dive into the next part with you is What can teachers, occupational therapists, administrators do to support these families? Angela Provenzano Yeah, I'm so glad to be here to talk about this too, because I think talking about it. And breaking the stigma is like, the first biggest thing, and I think we have to kind of analyze their own implicit bias. And I think it's called implicit because we probably didn't know it was there, especially toward something like grandparent caregivers. So thinking like, When the grandparents are in IEP meeting, do I think of them any differently? Or any less or any less capable of like a parent? Or is there any sort of feelings of judgment? So I think, analyzing our own implicit bias, and then also, just approaching any conversation with empathy and understanding, and I think it's easy to forget that oftentimes, these caregivers are doing the best they can in the best like with the situation they have. And a lot of them are struggling with a lot of different systems like the child welfare system, like I said, trying to get payments to even meet monthly rent the legal system, there are so many systems at play. So just realizing that like, sometimes their life can't revolve only around like their child's education. And that's okay like them housing their child in a safe environment is making such a difference in their lives. So I think leaning into empathy for that and just creating a safe and welcoming environment and getting to know them as like human beings, not just a caregiver, and when they are ready to open up one caregiver said like her first parent-teacher conference, which is also like a problematic terminology. But anyway, was very difficult because she was walking through the hallway. She's like, I was not supposed to do this again. And like, now this is just me saying like, this will be my what I'm doing for the next couple of years. And the first time she met with the teacher, she said, all she could do was cry when she was trying to talk about like, what had happened with the kid and what the teacher should know and all of that and what supports they might need as she could just cry. It was so overwhelming but the teacher gave her her phone number. And she's like, well, when you want to talk about this more, and you're more ready, and like, please give me a call, let me know. Because it can be very difficult in the beginning and kind of like a shock to everyone. So I think just creating that safe and open space, and also like truly listening to the concerns of caregivers can go such a long way because they feel so unheard. And so many other systems like, what are you concerned about? What do you see with the child and taking that seriously, and not approaching behavior as like something that caregiver did wrong or the child did wrong, but like having that trauma-informed mindset, as this family has been through a lot. And like I said, using that family-inclusive terminology. So like, Mom and Dad don’t go very far with all these families and different caregivers. So asking them their name and what they want to go by, because some grandparent caregivers do go by mom or dad, at that time. So I think just trying to be more mindful of addressing people in a more universal and accepting way, like inside the classroom and outside of the classroom. And like I said, just truly listen to their perspective and what they have to say because they do want to be the best advocates for their kids. And that's like, what everyone is there for, for like the best for the kids. So Jayson Davies yeah, absolutely. And so from your experiences, then do you find that most of the kinship family guardians really want the school district to kind of understand the current situation, or do some of them prefer to not even really have the school understand the situation because of that stigma a little bit. Angela Provenzano From what I've heard, most caregivers say they want them to know what's going on. And they will tell the school what they want them to know, they just don't want to have to relive it every year with every new teacher. So like, that's part of getting to know a family in the school. Like in the beginning, it might be hard to open up especially but as time goes on, like them talking about it more, but I think that's the good thing about being able to have a relationship with teachers in the school, it becomes more natural and less of like, alright, let's sit down and talk about all the terrible things that have happened. And I've seen, checklists being used in the school, where it's, it was actually like, pretty hard to see, it was given to a grandparent caregiver. And it was like, pretty much check, like all of these traumas that have happened to the kid. So we can see, I think it was from an outpatient clinic who had done it, though. And I was like, how terrible is that to look at a paper and have to check off all the things your child has done to their child's like, it's just a very difficult situation. And I think that's why relationship art is so helpful, so it can come out more naturally. But these caregivers do want the schools to know what their kids need, and what has gone on to the extent that they need to, hopefully not having to relive that like with every new teacher in every year. Jayson Davies Yeah, absolutely. So you are working directly with these families right now as part of your doctoral Capstone, I want to give you a chance to kind of speak a little more directly about that. And then also share with us what you are learning from that process. I mean, everything that you've already shared with us. Angela Provenzano No, I love this question. That truly has like, been the biggest honor of my life. And like I don't say that lightly. I get emotional about it. Just gotten to know these caregivers over the past year and a half. And I think when we go into occupational therapy, not to get like, you know, too philosophical, but we think we're there to help people and solve their problems and make their lives better. And I found the most powerful thing is truly listening, and seeing the dignity in people and what people have to say. And I think I've been the biggest learner of this all, and caregivers supporting each other. That's been like the magic of it. I do provide very helpful resources like I have lawyers come in. I have OTs come in. I have psychologists and counselors come in and talk about trauma, and like all different types of things. And that information is very helpful and very powerful. But the most powerful thing is just seeing what it means to know that you're not alone and taking away the stigma and shame from these families. Because if you think it just happens to you, then you want to keep it private and not talk about it. But once we talk about like, Oh, this is what my relationship is like with my like adult child, and this is what's hard. And this is what is easy. someone's like, oh yeah, I've experienced the same thing too. And this is how I've handled it. So the most immediate, amazing meetings have been when I can just sit back and watch the magic happen. But I think behind the scenes, what I'm really like even using my OT skills, doing is creating that safe and nonjudgmental, nonjudgmental space to share. But also kind of taking an empowerment approach. Like these are all hard things that have happened to us. But what is the good we can see in today and like, look how far we have come ourselves and kind of building that self-efficacy, because that is very important as well? So I think I've just learned like kind of cliche, but like the power of human connection, like how resilient people can be in literally changing their whole life and identity to care for a child and it's like the most amazing thing to witness and also like the joy to like yes, these caregivers go through hard things but like you bet Laughing like half the meetings when it's going on? So, yeah, just a lot there. Jayson Davies Yeah, adult child, that was the term I needed, like 10 minutes ago, stumbling over my words. Great. So you kind of explained a little bit about what you are really getting out of this and the significance of this process. But what does it actually look like for you? Are you running groups on Zoom? Or how many people are attending? What does that day look like? Angela Provenzano Yeah, so like I said, the name of the group is kinship caregivers connect. And I think we're actually the first online support group throughout the whole state of Ohio. So we have people from all different regions since it is online. And we have two meetings a week. So we meet Tuesday mornings and Thursday nights just to have two different time options. Typically, we have like eight to 12 people, but it has really been growing recently, which has been exciting. And I'm like, maybe I'm gonna have to start a new group soon. But I've had really strong community partners. And I think that has made a difference just I think, like being in OT, and doing kinship with no one else doing kinship, I'm like, I need to like look at other disciplines, other organizations. So I think I just really like making those strong community connections with advocacy organizations, and even bringing awareness to kinship care within the OT program at Ohio State. And making those connections has been really helpful. So I've had so many different speakers come in and provide information, and then I'll record those presentations, upload them to a website, so people can watch them afterward. But yeah, that's the typical structure of the meeting. And it is exciting that it's still growing in, it just shows that it's such a need for caregivers to know they're not doing something like this alone. Jayson Davies And so what is your ultimate goal? I guess with this, I mean, you are an OTD student right now, you are just starting your career as an occupational therapist. Do you have kind of like a short-term and then longer-term goal? Angela Provenzano Sure. Yeah, it's a question I asked myself a lot. Amaze coming like, but I have been fortunate enough to find a funding source to do the support groups, which has been super awesome. Like, especially as a student, you're kind of used to volunteering your time. So I'm partnered with Ohio can which is a kinship navigators program in Ohio, so shout out to them. And they also refer a lot of caregivers to the support group. So that's how it's really hard to get in touch with caregivers otherwise in the community. So referrals are really helpful. And I have like an email list of like, 150 people right now, I think. So it's definitely been growing. And I plan to hopefully, continue working, doing the support groups, it is like a remote job, which provides a lot of flexibility as well, and hopefully adding a support group or two. And if I could go the nonprofit route, I think that would be a really awesome thing. And maybe even like, thinking many years ahead, like making this a franchise match, I don't like the term franchise, or like opening it in other states as well, if it is working well. And it is like, pretty easy to expand just with the online format, because historically as there has been in-person kinship support groups, but like, it's always known that maybe like one or two people show up like it's really hard. If you think about the barriers of like transportation and childcare and finding time in the middle of the day, where like caregivers here, they're doing something cooking dinner in the background, they can still like hop on and listen. So it is a lot more accessible in some ways. So I hope to keep doing this. I'm really enjoying like I know it is non-traditional OT if I ended up in OT, I think the schools would be a great fit for me. I was in a preschool for fieldwork. And I just love like the aspect of working with different kids and different families and like the school community, that aspect that brings, and I'm also enjoying research, so maybe a Ph.D. like, but I have a lot to figure out short term, definitely keeping the support groups going and keep keeping to do this. Yeah, Jayson Davies that's great. So if there is a school-based OT out in the Ohio area out in the Midwest, is this somewhere that they can reach you to potentially learn more about the program, or I guess anywhere, anywhere, anyone anywhere in the country. We're more about you. Angela Provenzano So the most information about me, and the support group is kinshipcaregiversconnect.com. So that's pretty straightforward. My capstone project on posting resources on their website, which is Ohio family state, oh, my gosh, I should know this better. Ohio Statewide Family Engagement Center. It is kind of a mouthful at Ohio State and they have a page called Grand Understanding. So that's where I'll be posting some more of my content like the professional developments I'm working on. And then you could also find me on LinkedIn at Angela Provenzano. And if anyone has questions and is interested in learning more, or maybe he wants to come to present something at a support group meeting. I mean, definitely feel free to reach out to me I love just making as many connections with the community, especially the OT community as I can. Jayson Davies Yeah, awesome. So well We will be sure to link all of that into the show notes so that anyone can find the website or find you on LinkedIn. Great. Thank you so much for that. And yeah, you know, I'm excited about this because I think this is something that any one of us as a school-based occupational therapists, we will experience. If you haven't experienced it yet, you will experience sitting in an IEP across the table from a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle, someone who is taking care of a child that is not the biological parent. And you're also going to deal with foster families as well. You know, that's different from what we talked about. But there are some similarities, that trauma that comes with with a student, that's likely there as well. So yes, be sure to check out the website, check out the resources that Angela has provided. And I would love to find out that one day someone listened to this podcast that the school-based OT out there near you that came and presented one of the groups that'd be awesome. So thank you so much, Angela, for joining us on the podcast today really appreciate you being here taking the time out of your day to present this and I want to wish you the best of luck in your program and career as an occupational therapist. Angela Provenzano Thank you so much. This was so great. It was such an honor, thank you. Jayson Davies Definitely. Well, take care, have a great rest of your day. And we'll have to stay up to date, okay? Angela Provenzano Yeah, sounds good. Jayson Davies Bye Angela Provenzano Bye. Jayson Davies Alright, one more time, I want to say a special thank you to Angela for coming on and sharing all about kinship and grand families, it really is a pleasure to have her on. And it's even better to know that she is starting this. So early in her OT career as an OT student, she is going to make significant contributions to the field of OT as well as not just for kinship, but OT in general, but significant contributions for the lives of those who care for students as a grandparent, or an otherwise you know, as an aunt or uncle. So, one more time. Thank you so much, Angela, for coming to the show. I really appreciate having you here today. And if you're listening, thank you so much for listening, especially all the way to the end of the podcast. I really hope that you learned a lot. And don't forget about our live Q & A session that you'll be able to partake in about a week after this podcast goes live, or be sure to check out the replay. To hear what others had to ask and what Angela had to say in response to those questions. Be sure to check all that out at the show notes take care. Have a great rest of your day. And I'll see you next time. Bye. Amazing Narrator Thank you for listening to the OT Schoolhouse podcast. For more ways to help you and your students succeed right now. Head on over to otschoolhouse.com Until next time, class is dismissed. Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Freebies! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Have any questions or comments about the podcast? Email Jayson at Jayson@otschoolhouse.com Well, Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! 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Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen where you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 100 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. For our 100th episode, we are celebrating in a very special way. I don't want to give away too much, so I'll just tell you this. You may already be pretty familiar with our special guest today. Listen in to see who our mystery guest is and learn more about the OT Schoolhouse. Additional Links to Show References: The A-Z School-Based OT Course The course for all OT practitioners looking to better understand school-based OT. Making the Shift: Caseload to Workload An online workshop helping you and your colleagues move from a caseload model to a workload model in your school-based OT practice. Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host. Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Sarah Putt     Welcome to the OT school house podcast, today is a very special day for the OT school house podcast, a big day, a huge day, and one that is cause for a big celebration. But first you might be thinking, Wait a second, I am not Jayson, where is our beloved ot school house podcast host? So because this day is such a big milestone, Jayson actually asked me to come on and host this episode, since we're bringing on a very special guest in order to celebrate. My name is Sarah putt. I am the host of the OT School house podcast, as well as co host of two other ot podcasts, the real OTs of early intervention and the OT round table. I've known Jayson now for a few years, and we've connected because of our shared love of occupational therapy and, of course, podcasting back in the beginning of both of our shows, he came on mine, I've been on his, and we've even done a shared episode together where we talked about ot associations. Needless to say, we always have so much fun together when we record. So when he asked me to be a part of today's episode, I could not say no. I mean, it's not every day that a podcast reaches its 100th episode. Yep, you heard that, right. This is the 100th episode of the OT school house podcast. A major congrats to Jayson for all of his hard work in getting to this point. I know, as a podcast host, it is not easy to put together a show, and quite frankly, it's a lot of work. So getting to this milestone is absolutely huge, and I could not be more proud of Jayson and everything that he's accomplished. Now I know I mentioned that there's a special guest coming on the show this episode, and I'll bring him on in just a second. And honestly, I think it's a guest that you're really gonna like. I mean, who am I kidding? I already know it's somebody that you like. In this episode, we're gonna peel back the curtains on his ot journey and dive into his story, some of which you may or may not have heard about before. So without further ado, let's celebrate this 100th episode, this huge milestone episode, and welcome our very own Jayson Davies to the OT school house podcast. Hey, Jayson, welcome to the OT school house podcast, how are you today?    Jayson Davies     Wow, that sounds so weird. I'm doing fantastic. Thank you for welcoming me to the OT school podcast, wow. First time for everything.    Sarah Putt     I know I had to, like, refrain from saying the OT for life podcast, it's not my show today, but I am so excited, so excited. Today is a big day. Today is a huge day for you. 100 episodes of the OT school house podcast. And as a podcaster myself, I know just how big of a milestone this is. I know how much work every episode, everything that you have to do for a podcast. Like I get it, I know exactly what it takes to get to this point. And I want to know, how does it feel to be celebrating 100 episodes today.    Jayson Davies     You know, it feels fantastic. And I think I mentioned it a few episodes ago. You know, I always dreamed of this day coming a little bit sooner, but I'm so glad that it is right here, right now. I mean, so many things have happened in life with ot school house and just in my personal life to get to this point. I mean, you might hear a baby crying in the background for the first time in the 100th episode, and it's just amazing. You know, the OT school house has been going on for about four, almost five years now. And I wouldn't change a thing I love, everywhere that it has taken me, everywhere that it's going. And, yeah, just excited that we made it to 100 and that means that there has been 99 now, 100 fantastic episodes to help people. And yeah, just super excited about that. It's amazing.     Sarah Putt     Yeah. And we're going to dive into a lot of kind of how you started, and where you've been, and where you are now, and and really a lot about kind of your journey, and also the OT school house podcast journey, and just ot school house in general, because I know it's not just a podcast. There's a lot of other resources and just really great information that you offer. But I also I just have to ask, because I'm guessing this is the first time that you've been a guest on your own show.    Jayson Davies     Yes, yes, yes, it is. And you know, before I answer that, Sarah, first of all, I want to say thank you so much for agreeing to do this. I mean, when I first had this kind of idea, a little bit, and actually you were kind of the one that threw it out there, a little bit. About having someone interview me on my own show, I just could not appreciate a you for being here to do this for me, but also appreciate you as a podcaster colleague, and we've been doing this for so long together, and it's just been so much fun bouncing ideas off of each other and growing together as a podcasting community. It's just been amazing. So thank you for being here. I really appreciate that. And as for being interviewed on the show, you know, never thought this would happen. You know, if you would have asked me day one, four years ago, hey, someone's going to interview you on your show, I'd be like, Why? What's the point of that? But, you know, I see it, and I think it's going to be a fun episode, so I'm excited to dive into it a little bit more.    Sarah Putt     I think a lot of times, as a podcast host, we are so good about kind of showcasing the guests that we bring on or the topics that we're going to talk about. And quite often, at least, I feel like, for me, a lot of times I feel like I don't talk about my story as much. And that is, well, we're not talking about my story. We're going to talk about your story. Your story today. But I think that sometimes it can be overlooked when you're the host, because you just get so excited about, oh, this fantastic guest I'm gonna bring on. We're gonna talk about this topic. And you kind of are like, yeah, no one, no one wants to hear my story. Well, that's not true. We want to know the real story behind Jayson Davies and what makes you tick? Why even ot school have started, how you got to that point? And we are going to dive into all of that today, and I am sounds good. So excited to hear more. I know some of it, but I'm excited to hear more, and I'm sure there's little bits and pieces that I'm not even aware of yet.    Jayson Davies     Maybe we'll both learn something today. It'll be fun.    Sarah Putt      It's gonna be a lot of fun. So I mean, again, big congrats, 100 episodes and yeah, let's dive in. And I want to start with this question. I feel like whenever I'm maybe like on Facebook, or I'm out in the community, or somebody asked me a question about school based. OT, you are the first person that pops into my mind. I'm like, Hey, I've practiced in the schools before, but it's been probably more than eight years ago. It's a long time. And I'm like, Jayson, he's he's the expert. He knows everything. And I have to ask you, did you always know that you are going to end up in the schools, because in my mind, I feel like, Yeah, that's right where you were supposed to be.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, no, I did not actually think I'd end up in the schools. I did want to work with kids like that was one of the things that I knew going into ot school. I wanted to work with this population. However, as most of us, you know, go through school, we learn new things, and actually going through school, through ot school, in particular, I started to lean more toward acute rehab, because I really enjoyed the quick pace of an acute rehab setting. I mean, you are on that floor, on your feet for like eight hours straight, going from room to room to room, pulling a patient out, and it's just really quick pace. And I really did enjoy that. But ultimately, after graduating, gosh, almost 10 years ago now, it's crazy.    Sarah Putt     Another big milestone. I mean.    Jayson Davies     Right, but yeah, after graduating, you know, I actually kind of just fell in to a school based occupational therapy interview for a contracted position. And really, literally, I just like fell into it. Someone who I knew, who graduated with me also was already working for a contract company, and so she sent me up for a interview. I didn't know it at the time, but it was probably because she knew that she would get a referral fee if I signed up with the company. That's just how they work, right? We all know that now, once you've been in the field for 10 years, but you know, your first day out, you don't realize that people are actually getting paid because they bring you in to the company that they already work for. Anyways, whole nother situation, but I fell into that interview, which, to be honest, wasn't even really an interview. I talked to a person at that contracting company, and they basically gave me the answers for what the district would ask me when I interviewed with them. So again, I really fell into the school based ot position. I knew I wanted to work with kids. I thought I was going to be more in an outpatient type of SI clinic. But you know what? I'm glad that I fell into schools. You know, sometimes I feel like as a school based OT, we have to know a little bit of everything. We can't pick and choose who our clientele is. You know, one day, we're assessing a student who may have sensory difficulties. The next day, we are assessing someone who might have more behavioral difficulties, and we're trying to support them in the classroom. And then another day, it's a kid who just has handwriting difficulties. Down syndrome. You know, all the different varieties we see the entire spectrum of kids. Some have a diagnosis, some don't. And I just love that about school based ot that we get to see the whole gamut, and then we also, not only get to support the students, but also the teachers involved. And so I really appreciate that I found it, and I'm so happy. That, that I'm here, that I'm a school based occupational therapist.    Sarah Putt     So I think this is a really good point to kind of highlight here, because I think a lot of times, and honestly, it's so funny, because if you would have asked me when I was a student, even, like, pre ot student, and then ot student, and probably even new grad, like, where I was going to be, and, oh gosh, now I'm going on 13 years. Ooh, I probably would have said that I was going to be in the schools. So it's so funny that, like, here you are, like, Nah, I'm probably not going to be in the schools. I'll probably end up in a clinic or something. And I'm like, I'm going to be schools. And I'm like, totally.    Jayson Davies     You know, real quick I remember, like, I think at one point during ot school, they had us do like a five year, 10 year plan. And I think my five year plan was to get SIP certified, which I did actually do that within the five years, because I got very lucky and had a district help me pay to go through that program. But I think my 10 year program was to start have my own si clinic. And so I don't have my own si clinic, but we have ot school house and so exactly where we should be?    Sarah Putt     Oh, completely. I 100% agree with that. And I think it's just interesting to just point out that, like you don't really need to know when you're a student, or even a new grad, or even a couple years into practice, like you might not be exactly where you are until you're meant to be there. And I think a lot of times, like, students kind of get, like, stuck in this like, Oh, I really need to, like, where, what am I going to do when I graduate? What am I going to start at? And it's like, sometimes it just falls into your lap and here you are. I mean, you love it. You've been doing it your entire career, and you're not going anywhere. No, not at all. Yeah, yeah. So I know you're kind of talking a little bit about the schools and and why you like them, but really like, what is it about being an occupational therapy practitioner in schools that is so special to you?    Jayson Davies     You know, ever since day one, I just felt that we had an enormous ability to be in the student's natural context. And not every occupational therapist gets that ability. You know, I really see it as a vital part of occupational therapy in general, of practice, you know, helping a student or helping a client in their natural setting. And when you think about an OT working in a hospital, they don't get that. You think about an OT working in an SI clinic, they don't even get that. These kids are coming specifically to that place, the SI clinic, where people are going to a hospital to get the care, versus for us, we are going to the student's natural context. And yeah, sometimes we do pull a student out, and we do see them in the quote, unquote ot room, which sometimes is a hallway, sometimes it's the playground, sometimes wherever you can get it, the lunch room, right? It's wherever we can get it. But there is such a push now to have those services happen in the natural environment. And you know, as a school based ot knew, nine years ago whatever it was. I didn't understand that. I knew the idea of it, but I did a lot of pull out services. But over time, I saw the value of actually getting into the classroom. And that is what I appreciate most about school based OT, is that we have the opportunity that not everyone else has, to see the student in their natural context. And yeah, I just really appreciate that being able to help the student and the teachers where they are, not where we want to pull them out to so yeah, that's, I think that's the thing I enjoy most about school based ot.    Sarah Putt     As an OT in early intervention. I get it. I get it. I mean, that is one of the unique and super special parts of that practice setting as well. I mean, you really are servicing the kids where they are. You're working with a variety of staff. And yeah, it's there really is something truly special about meeting people, meeting kids, meeting the teachers, whoever it is that you're kind of collaborating with, meeting them where they're at and not just like, oh, come to me. It's like, no, no, I'm coming into your house and I'm going to support you the best way that I possibly can.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and you know, we're seeing such a big push for that. Now, research is coming out every year saying more about contextual and now we're seeing people like Laura Park, Figueroa, you know, doing more of the natural setting, natural based, ot out in the wild, and it's all about play. And how cool is that, you know, that we, I mean, as a profession, we understand the importance of seeing a student or a client, whatever it might be, in the natural setting. So I just love it.    Sarah Putt     So I have to ask, we're gonna get real here for a second. And I know we talked about this, gosh, when you were on my show, and that was, Ooh, that was probably, like, three years ago. So I'm curious if your answers have changed, or perspective has shifted a little bit. But I want to get into the kind of the nitty gritty about what it's like to be a school based occupational therapy practitioner. What are some of. The biggest challenges that either you have faced, or you've heard other people face, or you're hearing people are facing right now and then also, what are some of the most rewarding parts?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, so, you know, that's part of what I really love about the OT School House, is that I have met people from all over the world that I would never have had the opportunity to meet if I were practicing, you know, I meet people practicing in the schools, and I meet teachers. I meet adaptive physical education teachers who become my best friends. But through the OT school house, I get to talk to people specifically ot practitioners from around the world. And for me, some of my biggest challenges that I really had to overcome were realizing how to work with some of the older clients, the high school students. And we have this conundrum in school based OT. It's like, as kids get older, we should move them to consult, but also at the same time as kids get older, they need more support, and so how do we combine those? Where do we provide that support for our older students, who maybe they have more ability level, but they also have more responsibilities and a lot more to do within High School. And so that was tricky for me, and I hear that echoed throughout basically everyone who has worked in high school as an occupational therapist, that is one of the most common questions I get is, what do I do with the older students. So I think that is an area that as a profession, we still have a lot more to do. I think that as transition plans get more solidified, OTs are becoming part of that transition team. We have so much to offer for students who are about to turn 18, and either they're graduating from high school or they're getting a certificate of completion, and they're moving into the real world, whether it be trying to get a driver's license or trying to get that first job. I think OTs have a huge, huge potential for supporting that particular clientele. So that was something that was always a struggle for me, and I still do not claim to be a specialist in high school. In fact, that is one of the areas where I always try to bring people in who are doing more, and luckily, people are doing more in the high school. So I'm excited to bring on more podcast guests and and speakers at the conference that we're hosting later in August about high school. So that's, yeah, that's always a struggle. The other part was like, I think you kind of asked, you know, the flip side of that, what has something that's come kind of naturally. It's kind of how I'll take the question. A lot of people hate meetings. I actually enjoy the IEPs. I don't know about you. Do you enjoy like.    Sarah Putt     I love you. I thrived going out to IEP most of them, I should say most. Some of the, like, six hour ones. I was like, Yeah, I could, I could remove those. But yeah, I loved going to the IEP meetings.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, and on the same way, I love it, because I feel like that is where we get to advocate for the kid. We get to advocate for ourselves. We get to advocate for special education in general, and why it shouldn't be something to look down on, and why it's, you know, some people, I'm not going to point at anyone, because it comes from anywhere. Some people don't understand the role of special education, that it is to support the students, and they see it as a bad thing. They see it as my kids in special education, or that kids in special education, and there's something wrong. But that's totally not the case, you know. So, yeah, I enjoy IEPs. I think that it's a great way to share the knowledge that we have and to advocate for our profession, for the students that we serve.    Sarah Putt     And I don't know about you, but I feel like a lot of times, at least in the IEP meetings that I've been a part of a lot of times and work with lots of other practitioners, therapists, other staff, teachers, you name it, right, I've been in IEP meetings with probably 17 people, and I have encountered it time and time again, where there's maybe arguing or just some like, discontent between the different professionals, and then ot steps in, and we kind of like, explain everything, and all of a sudden people are like, Oh, I get it. And like the whole tone of the meeting changes. And I'm like, Yeah, that's ot right. That is why we're here. That is why we have a presence in the schools, because people need us to kind of connect those dots and really make it as supportive and empowering that we can for the kids and for the families and the caregivers.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I agree. And you know, as an occupational therapist, as an occupational therapy practitioner, I think that we do actually strive in realizing that we don't know everything, and knowing that the speech therapist has value, the teacher has value, the parent has value. Every single person on that team has value, despite what you want to think about them, even B CBAS, they bring value, and we can either A, we can ignore them and go down our own road, or B, we can listen to them and we can all work together. I think it's amazing when I understand other professionals goals, because then when I'm working with a student, I'm naturally embedding their. Goals into my sessions. And likewise, they're doing the same thing with me. Maybe the speech therapist incorporates some fine motor stuff, because they know what my goal is. And I think that's amazing. And that can only happen when the IEP team is really on the same page. We gotta be the loop.    Sarah Putt     I heard that somewhere, like, years ago, and I'm like, Yeah, OT is the glue. We bring everybody together. And, yeah, go. OT, okay, so I know what we talked about, how you got into the schools, but we are going to back up a little bit here, and this is before. OT, how did you find out about occupational therapy? How did you know that it was the profession for you? Like, let's, let's back up to little Jayson. I'm not sure how little you were when you found it, but let's go back a little bit.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. So I'm very fortunate in the sense that I learned about ot because my sister is actually an occupational therapist, and so that's how I learned about it. I think she actually learned about it at the Girl Scout retreat, so that's how she found out about it. I didn't even realize what she was doing throughout college, so I had no idea why she was at school, really. But once she graduated, she actually got a job in Southern California, in Pasadena, at Center for developing kids. Shout out to CDK. And so at that point, when she's working at CDK, I think I'm basically graduating from high school going into junior college. At that time, I was very insecure. I was so insecure that I didn't even apply to a university, even though I had like, a 3.9 GPA, like, I was afraid of getting let down and not getting into a school. And so instead of going to apply for a four year university. I started at a JC, no problem there, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. Two things that were on the table. I knew what ot was, so I decided, okay, that's part of what maybe I could do. And then I also was thinking film. I had gone through animation all four years in high school, and I really wanted to work for Pixar at the time. That was like my dream was to be an animator for Pixar. So I went to junior college, started taking some psych courses, you know, pre reqs for OT and I also took some film courses. And just over time, I started to sway more toward the OT side. I was doing volunteer hours at CDK. I probably racked up, like, I don't know, maybe 300 hours, like, not even realizing it. And then even when I was in OT school, I continued to go over there to support them. Even though I wasn't doing a field work, I was still volunteering and shadowing and doing stuff there. So yeah, I kind of followed my sister down that road a little bit into OT and found a very secure place, a very welcoming place, a place where I felt like I belong. You know, it allowed me to work with kids, which was kind of something I always wanted to do, and so it allowed me to get into that realm. And yeah, that's how I found OT, that's how I got into it. And yeah, we already talked about what happened after that. So, yeah.    Sarah Putt     So I kind of want to talk about the interim piece, because you said that ot school house is roughly four to five years old, and you've been practicing nine to 10 so you started, you found OT, you were volunteering and working with kids, and then you graduate, you get this job in school based what happens in those kind of the next, like four to five ish years that led you to starting ot school house?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. So we talked about, you know, that first job that I got, it was a contract job, and so I did work again, pretty local, about 20 minutes or so from from where I lived at the time, and that was my first toe dip into school based OT. I was a contracted therapist. However, I worked in a district where all the OTs were contracted by like, the same company, basically. So we really felt like we were really part of the district. However, what we didn't get was some of the support from the district. We didn't have a lot of RTI going on. We weren't really. We were a part of the district, but away from the district. You know, we met as a team, but we were kind of in the middle between the contract company and between the school district. Very grateful for the people that mentored me there. A little bit. We got some mentorship, not a ton, because you just didn't have the time. But again, that's where I learned what an IEP was. I really tried to learn, not only from the occupational therapist there, but also the school psychologist, from the teachers, from the speech therapist, learning so much about IEPs and special education, but after a year, I decided, You know what, I want to be in a district position. I don't want to be a contracted therapist, and I want to be in a place where I can start to to get benefits, and I want to be in a place where I can start to have a pension slash retirement. And, you know, I was getting a little bit older, I understood the value of health insurance and all that good stuff. And so I did take a district position out in the high desert, which you're familiar with. Southern California is like half, not halfway, but it's on the way to Vegas. And so I was working. Out there, driving an hour to work every day, and I was the only occupational therapist. I had one occupational therapy assistant that I also worked with, and she was a little bit more familiar with the district. She had contracted for the district, but yeah, it was just her and I, and they had always used contract therapist, and now they're hiring us in house. And so we got to develop the program there. We got to shape what their occupational therapy program looked like. And at the time, there were two things that I was really keying in on sensory. That was the district that sent me to go get SIP certified, which is very nice to them, but the more I learned about sensory and school based OT, the more I also leaned more toward RTI and getting into the classrooms and that natural context setting that we talked about earlier. And so I actually strayed a little bit away from the sensory side, because I didn't want to be pulling the kids out. However, I did use that sensory component to help train the teachers in understanding. And for some of our classrooms, they did have access to a sensory room, per se, very toned down, you know, definitely wasn't an SI clinic, by any means, but developing kind of little sensory plans that the teachers could carry out a little bit, definitely not sensory integration. Because sensory integration, as you know, is a very strict it's a protocol, and you have to follow those protocols to be providing Si, but I was able to help train the teachers in sensory strategies and help them implement that. So that was at that district. I was there for five years, and it was a place for Jason to grow up. It really was. It was a place for Jason to spread his wings, I guess you could say, and I was the OT practitioner, and I had to explain to my boss what ot was. I had to explain to everyone there what occupational therapy was, what it could do, and how it could benefit from OT, all the students, how they could benefit. And I got to try new things. That was one of the cool things as a small district. So I was given the leeway to try a little bit. And so I really opened the door to RTI for that district.    Sarah Putt     I want to point this out, because this is one of my favorite things of being a podcast host, is that you start to hear things that might have happened in their past journey, and then other things pop up, and they all kind of start to tie together. And what you said just now it's like you kind of growing up, growing into yourself, growing into this ot practitioner. It made me reflect on what you were saying. When you were scared to even apply to college. You were scared because you were going to get rejected, or you were scared to put yourself out there. And you went to school. You went to OT school. You started this position where you were the only occupational therapist, and I think you said there was a code out there. And here you are, like, I have to represent myself. I have to represent my kids. I have to represent the certified occupational therapy assistant. I have to represent the profession. I have to represent everything here. And it's like, it really is, like, you kind of went from this scared student to kind of finding your wings and finding your voice and really finding your niche within school based occupational therapy.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's funny because as you're saying that, like, I'm saying things out loud right now that I don't think I've ever said, and it's crazy. You know, we really do grow, but it's not until you actually say it out loud that you start to realize I knew what I did, but not that I'm saying it out loud. Wow, what was I doing, and how did I do that? So, yeah, that's crazy. You're right.    Sarah Putt     Yeah, it's just kind of like, making these connections and drawing these parallels of our journeys. Of like, maybe I haven't thought about that before. I didn't. I think we just kind of forget where we were because we are so comfortable where we are now. And I'm really curious to kind of hear about originally, what was your idea for ot school house, and what did you think it was going to be when you were first starting out?     Jayson Davies     Yeah, you know, that's crazy. So I was at that job that I was talking about where I was the only ot with a coda. And actually, during my time there, our caseload was growing, and we showed to our administrator that we could not do it on our own. And so we did a workload study, a time study, and we, like, laid out. I created, like, a three page document that showed why we needed another occupational therapist. And so when I did that, we hired another ot Abby, Abby piranha, and it was, yes, that's right, Sarah, you know Abby, she was on the podcast too when we recorded with you. Yeah. So Abby piranha was an occupational therapist that we had hired, and her and I, we worked together at that school district for two and a half years, maybe, and closer to the time where we eventually left the district, both of us were in a place where, you know, we were the only two OTs in a district we had an OT a and we're in an area where there's not a lot of occupational therapists. And so. We would have a quote, unquote team meeting, but it would just be us three. It's like, we had a team meeting almost every day, but then once a month we had an official team meeting. So we're like, How can we not meeting with other people, other occupational therapists? And so we decided, how can we make this happen? And that was kind of the birth of OT school house. We wanted to connect with other OTs, and we didn't see that out there. Both of us loved podcasts. We loved listening to podcasts from everything from like murder mystery podcast to finance podcast to how to start a podcast, podcast. And so, you know, we had this idea, and it's actually started off as a blog first, and then we quickly turn it into a podcast, because we just saw that podcasts were growing. And personally, me, I'm not a typer. I can talk all day long, but I hate typing, and so blogging for me was like tedious, but jumping on a microphone was easy. And so we started the podcast, and unfortunately, Abby, she ended up moving across the country and decided that it was no longer part of her world at that point to be part of the OT school house podcast. She now has a family and lives back east, and she's doing wonderful. We are on fantastic terms, but at the same time, you know, we just knew that it was at that point, best to split away. So now the OT school house is just myself, but she was absolutely a big part in starting it. And like I said, we just wanted to build a community where OTs that particularly worked in school based practice, could come together, learn together, teach each other, and just have a community, because everything was going virtual, and we saw a place, you know, there wasn't a podcast about school based ot there wasn't an online community for school based OTs at that time, and so we wanted to build that, and that still holds true today. I still want to build a community out a community for school based occupational therapy providers, and that's exactly what we're doing now. That's exactly what we're going to be doing in the future. So I'm excited for it.    Sarah Putt     Yeah, that connection piece and the community piece it, I get it like, that's why I started the podcast too, because I think it's very easy to kind of get stuck in our own little ot world, especially if you're very isolated, and maybe you're the only practitioner one of a handful. And there's so much amazing work that's being done out there, and if you just stay in your own little world, you're never going to kind of find out about that. And I want to just say you have built a community. So I know your goal is to build one. You're going to continue to build, because you've already built this amazing school based ot community. And it's amazing to because I listened to you from the, probably the very, very beginning, when you first started your podcast. And it's so amazing to see how much you've changed, how much you've grown the topics that you've covered. And I also want to say like the, almost like the in depth of the topics that you've covered. I feel like in the beginning it was very, you know, just kind of those, those big topics that come up in school, and now you're coming up with different topics that I'm like, wow. Like, how did you even come up with like that? That's so that's so niche, and so needed, that we need, that needs to be kind of talked about in the school based world. And so it's been really cool to watch this progression and how ot school house has grown, how the podcast has grown, and everything that you've really kind of built around ot school house.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, thank you so much. I mean, it's been a journey, and you know, right along with you too. I mean, it's been crazy watching you grow. I mean, starting off with your own podcast, your own ot for life and everyone you know, very niche, but at the same time, very large for all occupational therapists that that might want to watch occupational therapy practitioners listen to and then watching you kind of niche it down a little bit, even you know you've done the OT round table, which is still very broad. But then you also have your ei podcast, which now that you're doing with Danielle and Amira, and can't not mention Amira, I hope everything is going well with Amira. But, yeah, just seeing everything that you're doing with the EI field, and just your journey in podcasting, it's been amazing to grow with you within the podcasting community.    Sarah Putt     Yeah, it truly is kind of, I mean, occupational therapy is a small world to begin with, and then enter ot podcasters, and it's like, we're, we're even smaller, and connecting with you a couple years back at the Occupational Therapy Association Conference in California, and, yeah, just being a part of your journey and now being here today, I'm like, this is on it for me first. But what do you think, kind of reflecting back on, I mean, this entire journey from starting ot to starting in the schools to starting ot school house, what do you think are some of like, the biggest things that you've. Learned along the way, and this can be very specific to the podcast, or this can be school based. OT I'm going to leave it kind of broad for you to answer.    Jayson Davies     I feel like I should kind of hit like one for each thing here. You know, for school based occupational therapy, I think the biggest thing that I've learned is that we can't do this on our own, and sometimes as occupational therapists, as occupational therapy practitioners, we sometimes have this feeling where it's us against the world, where no one understands what we do, and we have to constantly share what we do. And I'm not saying that is false. It is absolutely correct. We do have to share what we do, but we also need to, and I've learned we can't do this alone, and we need help from the school psychs. We need help from our administrators. We need help from our teachers, and we need to push ourselves out there. We can't expect them to come to us. We need to show them what we can do, not just explain what we do, and the more that we push ourselves out there, the more that we show them exactly how ot can support that one student in their class, or their entire class, the more that we do that, the more they're involved, the more they're going to ask us to come back and do more. And I think that is the one thing that I've learned the most in the schools is that if you share what you do in a way that they actually see what we do. If you do that with one teacher, they will share it with another teacher. You won't have to share with another teacher. That teacher will share with their colleagues what Jason did for them, and then that teacher is going to ask me to come into their classroom, and from there, it just continues to grow and grow and grow. And so the power of showing one teacher what you can do can just have tremendous benefits for the field of occupational therapy, not just for you, but for the entire field of occupational therapy. So I think that's kind of like the one big thing from school based ot that I've learned outside, you know, with ot school house as a business in general, I've learned that I can do hard things that I never know how to do my goodness. And same with you. I'm sure you know it's you don't learn how to develop a podcast in OT school. I mean, you don't learn how to develop a website. I sometimes get emails, and I'm sure you get them too, where people like email you as though you are a team of people, and I'm like, it's just me here, hi. It's Jason. You know, it's we are learning how to do this, and we're learning how to write, how to do a podcast, produce a podcast. We're learning how to create a website, how to make YouTube videos, how to make a course, how to make a conference for school based occupational therapists, how to build a community. And I never thought that I would have ever done that in my life. And so I think that's the big thing that I've learned from the business side of things. So yeah, I think those are kind of two big takeaways that are very different but equally important when it comes to the OT school house being what it is today.    Sarah Putt     And I'd also include that they probably have intertwined a lot, and as you kind of grew as a business owner, and as you grew using your voice on the podcast and and really, kind of finding your true passion, and really like your true purpose of what you want to be doing, that has then translated into the work that you do clinically and working with teachers and working with staff and working with clients. And I think it's just it's so cool to kind of see, because, I mean, I've gone through it myself too, how both of those skill sets, I guess you could say, even though they seem separate, can really just kind of come together and like, I mean, it just kind of opens up all these other opportunities and potentials. And really, you just kind of find yourself and find your footing and kind of move into that space that maybe you didn't know you were supposed to be. But once you're there, you're like, Yeah, this is exactly where I'm supposed to be.    Jayson Davies     Right? And, yeah, I have a folder in my email where, like, all the appreciation that I get, I just, if I get an appreciation email, I just drop it into that appreciation folder. Um, sometimes I print out a few and I put them up on my wall, you know, it's just because, growing up, we already talked a little bit about self conscious issues back in the day. And one of those things was like, my voice, like, you know, self conscious about your voice, right? YouTubers are self conscious about what they look like on YouTube for podcasts, or naturally, like, I don't want to listen to my voice. And I was always self conscious about that. And growing up, people would always like, ask me to repeat what I said because of my voice. And so that made me more self conscious. And now I get emails saying, like, your voice is so calming and soothing and it's perfect on a podcast, it's like that just it baffles me, because that's never what I would have expected anyone to ever comment on about myself. And if I wouldn't have started the podcast, I would have never known that people actually appreciate hearing. Not only my content, but also the sound of my voice, which is nothing I can control. Well, to some extent, right? You can take lessons or not, but I haven't, but, but to hear what, you know, people enjoy listening to you, and it's just something that you never expect to get, but it helps when you get it. And always appreciative.    Sarah Putt     I love the appreciation folder, and I feel like I need to, like, do that. I like, say I'm gonna do it all the time, and I just haven't done it. But maybe this is gonna be from something that came from that, or maybe it's something else. But would you share, like, what has been either the most memorable or maybe a couple of memorable moments that you've had since starting the OT school house.    Jayson Davies     Oh, you know it always I mean, it's crazy, because it's not something that you wouldn't think would happen. But every time I hear from an occupational therapist, a provider that is not within the United States, like it just floors me, like the first time I received a message from someone outside of the United States. I believe it was, I can see her name, but I can't think of it from Shanghai, China. I was like, Why does someone in Shanghai even know I exist? And it was just amazing. So that always floors me. We have actually quite a bit of listeners, both in the UK and in Australia. And, you know, as a podcaster, we kind of see some numbers about where people are listening. I'm just like, again, why? Why do these people even know who I am? So that always floors me. But every time that someone tags me in an Instagram like story and just says, you know, thanks to the OT school house for this gray space paper. Thank you to the OT school house for sharing these handouts that people that they're using to spread the awareness of OT school house. Those are really the moments that I remember most. You know, it's just people are thanking me for something that I created for them, and it really touches the heart. You know, it's like, you put these things out there, not knowing if anyone will ever use them, and when they actually do use them, you're just like, Thank you for using this. You know, I give out so much for free, and I do that because I want people to use stuff. I don't want you to have to recreate the wheel. And so, yeah, it's just amazing when people do that. It's always amazing when we have, you know, 300 people show up to a conference, or 300 people show up to a live webinar, and we just have community those types of things I can't ask for. I can't even fathom saying, hey, you know, I have something really cool to share with you. I hope you'll show up, and then when 300 people show up, it just means so much that you're actually helping them. I like to tell people I try to give away 1000s of dollars worth of free information before I ask you to purchase one thing for the OT school house, whether it be a conference or a course, I want to make sure that you're finding value through the podcast, through the website, through free webinars, because if we're not, then we're not doing our job, or I'm not doing my job. So yeah, those are some of the things that just really make me in awe every time that that people say thank you that people share what we have put out there, and when people show up and just be a part of the community.    Sarah Putt     Is it so interesting to reflect back to when it was just you and the COTA in the district, and that was it, and there was nobody else around. And then when you moved to the next position, and it was you and Abby and one other practitioner, and those were your meetings, right? Like, two to three people, and now all of a sudden, you're talking potentially 1000s of people that are listening to you showing up to your events. Like, that's gotta be the best feeling in the world.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. And my wife sometimes jokes around how, like, I can't go to an OT event without people knowing who I am. And it's kind of true, and like, I don't let it go to my head. But it's just amazing to know that, yes, ot practitioners around the world, like, know who I am. And okay, we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, there are very few males in the position of OT and being one of the few males that are prominent within the podcast space and whatnot, I do get recognized if I go to an A ot a event, or ot of California ot event or something like that. And it's awesome, but that is just a byproduct of all that I have done, that I have put out there for everyone, and it's just a byproduct. Basically, it's a way of saying thank you when they notice me out in the world. It's a way of them anyone saying, you know, thank you for doing what you've done. And I feel that, you know, I feel whenever someone comes up and says hello, sometimes a simple hello, you can feel is really more of a thank you so much for what you've done. And even if people don't say it, I feel it from every single person in the OT, ot school house community, and just the OT community in general.    Sarah Putt     So I kind of have a two parter question for you here. And being that you know you love being an OT in the schools, and you have so much passion for really. Changing the face of what occupational therapy looks like in in schools, in school districts. Here's the two parter here, where do you want to see ot in the schools be in the future. And then the second question is, where do you want to see ot school house fit into that.    Jayson Davies     Great question. I love it, and I know exactly what my answer is, at least for the first part. No two plus, maybe not evolving. Yeah, seriously. OT in school based occupational therapy. I want OTs to be ever present, more so than we are today. I want us to be helping more people through the power of collaboration. Now, sometimes when I say that, people think that I mean like we won't be having one on one sessions, and that's not the case. There will always be a case for one to one ot with an individual or even a small group with ot supporting a few students in maybe the OT room. But I want more teachers, more administrators, to understand our value. Beyond that, I want us to be as well known as the nurse on campus or any teacher. I want us to be a part of the community, a true part of the school community. I'm not just someone that walks into a room and people say you're going to the OT room and not know why someone's going to the OT room. Or you walk into a room to pick up a student and all the other students, they want to go with you because they know you're in the fun place, but they don't know what you do. I really want us to be embedded into the classroom right now, most OTs are working through the IDEA law, right, which is all about special education, but I want us to move beyond that. And there is legislation for that. It's the ESSA Every Student Succeeds Act of 2015 and it's got to be reauthorized soon. And what that pushes for OT and other service providers is to be more involved in general education curriculum, and that's really where I want to see OTs. I want to see OTs in every classroom, not just the special education classrooms. So, yeah, that's my answer for that, for the OT school house. This is a tough one, you know, I, you know, I always say, you know, I need to have a five year plan, but I never create a five year plan.    Sarah Putt     Both. I'm like, oh, five years ago. Wait a second.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. You know, I I definitely want to continue the OT school house podcast. I want to bring on more guests. I want to provide that value for every school based OT, whether they're in the city next door to me, the same city, or anywhere around the world, alongside of that, though, I do want to, like you said, I have developed a community, but I wanted to develop that community even further. I want us to bring us together for more events where we are sharing specific knowledge to school days. OT, I love a OTA, I love OT. I love the World Federation of OT. I'm sad that I probably will not make it to Paris later this year. Me neither. I was gonna ask you, I wasn't sure if you'd make it there or not, but yeah, you've got a lot going on too, but sometimes those large events, they're encompassing of all of OTs and school based ot kind of gets lost in it. And so I want to continue to build a community specific to school based occupational therapy practitioners that is 100% for the school based OT and that's where I'm at. That's what I want to continue to do, and whether that looks like more in person events, so be it, if that continues to be all virtual, that's okay too. I just want to continue to have a place for school based OTs to come and feel like they are talking with their own and learning also how to outreach beyond school based OT and as you know, I really share about about advocacy. We've already talked a little bit today about sharing with teachers administrators what your value is as a school based ot practitioner.    Sarah Putt     Yeah, I think it's really just kind of continuing to spread the knowledge, spread the research, spread the work, spread the word. You know, everything working in the schools is definitely a unique and niche practice area. And being able to be in that community and build that community and be a part of that community worldwide is huge, and learning about how people are doing it in, maybe it is the city next to you, or maybe it is a completely different country and and learning from each other, and just that kind of knowledge translation and that knowledge sharing is, again, it's one of the biggest parts for me being an occupational Therapy practitioner, as well as being a podcaster, and really just like sharing everything that we're learning and connecting with each other. And I love that that is your mission, and continuing to be your mission with the OT school house podcast, I want to go a little personal just for a second, because I know for. Five ish weeks ago, something big, and you talked about it right in the beginning of the episode. Something big changed in your life, and you had your son. You're born, and being that I am now, I had a daughter last year. She just turned one year old. I know how much we are so passionate about the field of occupational therapy and the settings that we work in, and how our personal lives are so intertwined with our professional lives, yeah, and I am really curious to hear, how has having your son, and I know it's only been a short few weeks, probably feels a little longer, a little sleep deprived here, but how has your son influenced your role as an occupational therapist?    Jayson Davies     Funny, you should ask. Actually, I was texting one of my former colleagues and a friend, Amanda. She was actually on an episode, gosh, a few years ago now. She was asking me. She's like, Hey, how's being a dad? Like, you know, it's going well, you know, just learning every day how to take care of a baby. And she's like, Oh yeah, you only worked in the schools. You never did early intervention. You don't know what it means to be a to work with young you know, the baby. And I was like, yeah, that's that's right on. I don't, because I never worked in that EI. And so this is all new to me. I'm the first child of my parents to have a kid. My wife is the first child of her family to have a kid, and so we haven't been around a lot of newborns, and yeah, so we are learning everything by the moment. It's been crazy. Lots of diaper changes, lots of trying to, you know, people tell you to get into a routine, and then people tell you, is it impossible to get into a routine with a newborn? So it's like, wait, what do you want me? There's just so much information coming from everywhere. I have barely started to get back to like responding to emails and getting into things. You know, I'm in a fortunate position, I should say, and I am not actually working as a practitioner at this point, and so I don't have to rush back to a school based job. I am now full time with the OT school house, and, you know, it's scary, but at the same time, I know by being full time at the OT school house, I can support more occupational therapy practitioners. And so I'm excited for that. I'm also excited because I do get to work from home now, and I get to be here for my child. His name's Kyler, Kiyoshi Davies, and I get to be there for Kyler. And so I'm excited about that, but the one thing that I remember, and I don't even know who told me this, is that, you know, babies aren't necessarily as fragile as everyone thinks. So I am keeping that in my mind, but at the same time, I know he's still a baby, and you know, of course, he relies on us for everything. So it is just a blessing to have him. I'm so excited to be in his life, and I'm so excited to have him in my life, and I look forward to all the precious moments with him. And you know, he's already, he's already aging out of the newborn clothing, which, you know, it's, it's amazing. You know, they grow fast, so just trying to enjoy every moment.    Sarah Putt     You know, it's been a journey. Your experience from starting out in OT, starting out in the schools, starting ot school house, and now having a son and becoming a parent like it's all a journey, and it's.    Jayson Davies     I don't know if you can hear him right now, I just started crying. No.    Sarah Putt     Like on cue. I'm watching my daughter throwing her toys over her crib right now.    Jayson Davies     Just for everyone, just for everyone listening right now. We had to, like time this around baby naps and walk time. So, yep, that's, that's life for us now.    Sarah Putt     Yeah, life as ot parents and OT podcasters here, true life right behind the scenes, behind the curtains here. But yeah, it's, I think having a kid, it's only going to add to who you are right now and everything that you do. And I think as your son gets older, you will start to realize how how you can better talk to parents, or how you can change how you talk to parents, caregivers, and IEPs, all that type of stuff, because I know I learned a lot, and I was like, wow, I expected a lot from my clients parents, and now I'm like, okay, and it just, it's a continuous journey of just kind of learning across all boards. Here, is there, like, side note, is there anything else that you feel like you wanted to talk about you wanted me to ask, like anything else we didn't touch on before we close up.    Jayson Davies     Now you can hear, yeah, I always tell people this is a dog friendly podcast, but now it's a kid friendly podcast too. So yeah, you know, I think we touched on everything, you know, I'm just excited that we have got to this point. You know, I never expected to to be where I am today with the OT school house podcast, and I couldn't have done it without all the support. I just remember, like, the first time a number popped up on our podcast, or like, someone listened to the podcast, and, you know, now. So it is being listened to by 1000s of therapists, and I'm just so excited to be able to support those therapists in any way possible. It is just a huge blessing. And yeah, you know, that's really it. I'm just super appreciative for everyone out there that's listening and allowing me to be a part of their drive or their workout or whatever they're doing while they listen. Right? It's just amazing that anyone would want to listen to a podcast about school based occupational therapy, and just cannot say thank you enough to everyone that listens and to everyone that's a part of the OT school house community, and yeah, that's, I think that's the big thing that I just want to, just want to share with everyone. I really appreciate you.    Sarah Putt     I said it in the beginning, and I'm going to say it again. Congratulations. 100 episodes. This is a like, just an enormous milestone to hit as a podcaster. And I know the work isn't done. I know that there's so much more that you want to do and so many more brilliant ideas that you have yet to share with the OT and school based community. And first off, I am so honored to have been a part of this and to be asked to interview you for this huge milestone. So thank you for that. And honestly, I cannot wait to see where Jayson goes in the future, where the OT school house community goes in the future. The podcast like, yeah, there are, there are big things coming. And I am. I'm so excited. So big congratulations.    Jayson Davies     Thank you so much, Sarah. And thank you again, so much for taking the time out of your day to come on and do this. I really appreciate it. As we've talked about, we didn't even talk about how we met. And if you want to hear how we met, go listen to the OT for life. Do you know what episode that was? It was way back in the beginning. I know we talked about it.    Sarah Putt     Like 43 or something. We can, we can link to it.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, you'll hear about how we how we met each other at a ot occupational therapy of California Association, just we decided to have lunch one day, and us and a few others, and it's crazy to see where we've gone from there, and so build your community out. And yeah, Sarah, you know, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for taking the time to interview me. I know you've got a baby that's ready for your attention, but I appreciate you taking the time, right? Always. I appreciate you taking the time to be here. I couldn't think of a more perfect podcast, occupational therapy provider to be here. Excited for that.    Sarah Putt     I know I said it a bunch in the episode, but I'm saying it again. Congrats Jayson for reaching 100 episodes of the OT school house podcast. This is such a huge accomplishment, and I am so so so so proud of you. I honestly cannot thank you enough for allowing me the opportunity to come on and host this monumental episode with you. It is such an honor to be here on this special episode to celebrate such a big accomplishment. I had an absolute blast going behind the scenes of the OT school house podcast how it came to be, as well as learning more about you and how your journey led you to where you are. Now, if you're still listening to this, I know that you are Jayson people, so do me a favor. Go wish him a big congrats. You can do that by sharing this episode on social media, telling a friend about it, or just send him a message to share your excitement and your congratulations, hearing from you I know will make his day. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, and again, congrats Jayson and the OT school house community. Cheers to 100 episodes, and here's to 100 more.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com . Until next time class is dismissed. Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen where you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 102 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Are you a new grad OT practitioner ready to find your first school-based OT job? If so, hit play now! In this episode, I am interviewing Jhenny Rivera about her recent experiences of searching for, finding, interviewing, and starting in a school-based OT position as a new grad OT. Jhenny graduated from OT school in the summer of 2021, passed the OT boards in the fall, and landed her first school-based OT job in January of 2022. That is why I have asked her to come on the OT Schoolhouse Podcast to share how she achieved her goal and what she learned in the process. We talk not only about the hiring process but also about what the first few months were like as a new grad school-based OT. Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hey there. And welcome to Episode 102 of the OT school house podcast. My name is Jayson Davies, and I'm excited for you to be here today, especially if you are someone looking to transition into school based OT, or maybe you just made that switch into school based OT, and you're trying to figure out where to go from here. You know, those first few months can be difficult. Landing a job can be difficult, even applying for a school based ot job can be difficult. Do you choose to go with a district or do you choose to go with a contract company? Those are the things we're going to talk about today in our episode with a new grad occupational therapist. Her name is Jhennylyn Rivera, and she is joining us today to talk about that transition that she went through. She actually passed the National Board of OT course, or not the course, sorry, the test about in November, I think it was. And then she went ahead and applied for a job in January, and now she's been working as a school based ot practitioner for about four months. And so she's going to share with us that experience from moving from graduation, going through looking for a job, trying to figure out who to apply for, what jobs to interview with, and all that. And then she's going to share with us the last three or four months how that's been going, what those first few evaluations were like, what those first few IEPs were like. She works for a contract company. So if you are looking at that direction, definitely listen to this. But even if you're in a district as a district ot position, there's still so much value within this episode. So be sure stick around. Jenny is amazing. You're gonna hear how positive she is. She is a self proclaimed extrovert. She even says that in the podcast today, so she is willing to share all so be sure put that phone in your pocket and just listen in. This is gonna be a great episode. So without any further ado, here is our guest for today's very amazing episode. Jenny Lynn Rivera, I hope you enjoy this interview. Hey Jhenny, welcome to the OT school house podcast, how are you doing this morning?     Jhennylyn Rivera     I'm doing good. Jayson, thank you.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. Thank you for waking up. I know Saturday morning here, I appreciate you waking up and doing this with me. I'm excited to talk to you about what it has been in your first few months as a school based occupational therapist. So how are you feeling? Is this surreal? Or how you doing?     Jhennylyn Rivera     I mean, it still feels surreal right now. I mean, it's it's been three, almost four months, and it's an up and down roller coaster ride. I came in in the middle of the school year, so imagine it's pretty rough transition, but I'm starting to get a the feel of the school based world.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, you know, usually I like to start off by asking my guests to share a little bit about their background within occupational therapy, but you were, like, in the midst of creating your background in occupational therapy. So why don't we just kind of start off with school, a little bit ot school. What was that experience like for you?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Okay, I mean, I was actually planning to, like, you know, share about, like, my school, whole school experience so well, I mean, basically just a summary. I went to, like, LA City College for my associates, liberal arts. And then I want to talk about kinesiology in Northridge, because that is a huge part of my ot school that basically prepared me to, we know, kinesiology classes, even motor development. So basically, I got my bachelor's in kinesiology with an emphasis in exercise science from CSUN, yay matadors. I took a two year gap. I worked for the county parks and recs. I'm still supposed to be working there, but I got laid off during the pandemic. A lot of employees got furloughed, but during ot school breaks, summer, winter, Thanksgiving breaks, I would do part time work because, you know, as much as we can, we try to limit our student loans. So I did that two years from bachelors to OT school while I was working as a wellness coordinator and or slash rehab tech for an Ali or assisted living independent living facility in California, also while retaking my prerequisite classes and volunteering for Rancho amigos national rehab center in Downey. It's pretty big in the OT world, and that's where I pretty much learn more about OT and what we do. I was able to experience inpatient outpatient I even observed surgery, where you stand at the back of the glass.     Jayson Davies     I remember doing that watch. I remember seeing a rotator cuff surgery. I was like, Alright, I'm good. I don't need to see this ever again in my life.    Jhennylyn Rivera     Yeah, it was fascinating. It was a really great facility to learn and to observe, and I'm glad I was able to do that before the pandemic, because I don't think they took volunteers, um, during COVID, I'm not sure right now, but so during that two year gap, I applied to two schools. I only applied to two schools because I didn't take my GRE. Yeah, interesting, yeah. So I got chicken now with a GRE.    Jayson Davies     Quick story on that for backstory for me on the GRE. I am a terrible test taker, and I scored below the minimum threshold on the GRE for USC, but I had already kind of been committed to USC, and so I was technically on probation while in the US C ot program, because, like, I was supposed to get 1000 on the GRE, and I got like a 950 or something like that. And so yeah, that's the only time in my life that I've ever been on academic probation. I've always been a great student, but because I got a low score on the GRE, I was on academic probation technically. So yeah, I'm right there with you. I didn't want to take that.    Jhennylyn Rivera     It is cool that they took it though, I mean, like, they got you in without, you know.     Jayson Davies     I was in a very, yeah, I was in a, I was in a special program. It's like the bachelor semesters program. So I was already kind of guaranteed a spot. It's kind of a formality that I had to take the GRE but, yeah, I'm just very fortunate that they didn't, like, turn me away once I got a low score.    Jhennylyn Rivera     Those were the days when the competition isn't really crazy. OT, but yeah, I'm speaking of competition. So like, I applied to two schools in Southern California, and the first year was not successful, but the admin in Loma Linda, which the school that I went to, she literally took time to look at my application and transcripts and advised me to retake my anatomy, physiology and statistics, which I did, because when I was taking those classes before I was a nursing major, and it's a funny stereotype, but it's true that my parents want me To be a nurse, and my heart wasn't really into it. I mean, I salute nurses and I really, really applaud what they do, but I feel like I'm gonna cry at the bedside. I don't think it's for me, because I would, you know, I want to work with patients in the rehab process when they're ready to get back to, you know, living and to provide or help them achieve a better quality of life. So yes, I took my I retook my prerequisite classes. The second year I applied, I got into Loma Linda University. That was January, 2018 and then the school started in June, 2018 I so went to school. Our program is two years and three quarters. So it was for Master's program. I know it's two years for most schools, but our school, we have religion classes and ethics classes, and we have, like, a five weeks off in the summer, which was awesome for my program. At least, I believe they got rid of the master's program. Now they only have the entry level. OT, so it's pretty accelerated, but that's basically my experience. I'm supposed to graduate March 2021, but due to field work placement challenges during the pandemic, I was delayed by three months. Um, ended up finishing in June 2021    Jayson Davies     that's not too bad.    Jhennylyn Rivera     No, actually, yeah. And I wasn't in a hurry, because when I graduated, it took like two, three months off, um, traveling. We my my fiance now bought a van during the pandemic, and we basically took a two week, three weeks a road trip. North, no North like West Side. So basically, California, Arizona, Utah, Yellowstone.    Jayson Davies     Wow, yeah.    Jhennylyn Rivera     Montana, Idaho. So basically, we toured down, yeah, west side of the US, and then spend time and family before tackling and passing the board's exam with me here today as an OT practitioner.     Jayson Davies     Yes, and congrats on on passing that. You know you reminded me, as you're talking, as talking about your student life, that I had completely forgotten about this, and you just made me recall it that you were awarded the OTEC Outstanding Student Award at the annual conference last year, right?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes, I was.    Jayson Davies     Congratulations on that. What does that mean for you as what did I like? How did you feel? How did you respond as being awarded by the OT Association of California for being a great student?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Oh, well, thank you so much. First of all, it's an honor, and that during, you know that, like, well, I can't say like, the most difficult time for ot students, but you know, every everyone's experience definitely a difficult time. It was difficult time, and we transitioned from in person and then virtual. And I think what led to that is my participation in different activities, not just go to school, go home study and this and that. While I was in school, I volunteered for, you know, we call it possibilities in Loma Linda, where we have events for people with disabilities, we do 5k runs and, you know, ride bikes. I think it's a triathlon type thing. I also volunteered for the chapel over there. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, but I love music, so like, every like, probably a couple months, I would volunteer to play the piano, or, like, the drums or the cajon for the church over there, and while serving in the soda. So student ot Association, I started in the first year as a historian, and then the second year I became vice president, and I continued that leadership, leadership role. I got into ot I became a volunteer for the conferences, which was fun Pasadena, twice, 2018 2019, and then I became a ot membership, committee, board member, and then co chair now, so it's, it's, you know, it's a really great experience. And also on my other volunteers outside the church sewing face masks during the pandemic. I probably saw like 700 face masks and donated to like, differenthospitals, yeah, yeah.    Jayson Davies     that's crazy. And you know, well, first of all, kudos to you on earning that award from OT. It sounds like you deserved it. I know you are a very busy person, and I know from working with you right now a little bit, I guess I should point out that for everyone out there, Jhenny has been helping me behind the scenes, actually, at the OT school, off a little bit, and just working with her, I know that she is a a go getter, and she is so invested right now in being a school based OT, that's why I'm excited to talk to her now moving forward in the rest of this podcast. But she's just she is always going beyond the expectation, whether it's work, life and even when she was in school. So yeah, thank you also for continuing with OT and serving as an OT volunteer. We all need those, whether it's for our state organization or national a ot organization, we definitely need more volunteers so so thank you for that.     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes. Thank you, Jayson, and you know, I'll take this opportunity to shameless plug. If any of you want to volunteer for OT, feel free to reach out to me.    Jayson Davies     Yes, absolutely, absolutely, or reach out to your state. If you're in another state, reach out to your state and say, you know, how can I help? We everyone. All the state organizations need, need support. All right, so let's go ahead and move forward a little bit. We've talked about your life as a student a bit. Remind me again. Did you have a school based ot field work?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes, I did. I actually had two school based ot.    Jayson Davies     Pandemic mix up type of stuff going on?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Um, our school in general have a basically two level one field work. One is a different location. I was placed at a behavioral health inpatient site facility, and then the other one, everyone, all of us in our class, have to do a level one field work for the that quarter. Once a week we go to a school in San Bernardino area, and, yeah, get to experience basically, like, like a sneak peek. But, yeah, the level ones. It's really quick. I mean, it's a two week experience, but that experience was virtual school based for us, it was distributed for the entire quarter. Once a week we would go to schools, but I had my 12 week level two field work at a school district in Southern California. It was an interesting experience because it was hybrid. It was during the pandemic, um, January 2021, so we are in the process of going back in person, but not totally back in person. Like four days a week, I would do virtual and then one day I would do in person assessments and treatment prep, so I was able to see everything virtual and in person.     Jayson Davies     Such a unique experience, I'm sure. Yeah, all right, so you did have a little bit of experience in school based. OT, coming out of school, and that leads us now to, we're going to skip the NBC. OT, I know that's like a whole another conversation, but talking about moving into the professional world. Where did you start? Did you know you wanted to go into school based? OT, did you apply other places? Or kind of walk us through even just that mindset that you had when you decided, you know what it's time to apply for a job?    Jhennylyn Rivera     Well, deciding whether to go to school based, I didn't even know about school based ot when I started ot school, coming into ot school, I thought of, oh, I'm going to do rehab. And I was set in outpatient rehab, but then learning all the things that we learned in school, we have, our SI classes, our pediatrics quarter, and also my background in parks and rec, because I love working with kids. Working with kids. I coach youth sports, and I taught music in a private school before guitar, piano, so the love is there. And it's funny, because when I was young, I wanted to be a teacher. My grandma was a teacher. Three of my aunts were teachers, and I think it's our it's in our blood, and I've seen them. But you know, my my parents kind of want to, want me, wanted me to go for a medical based job. So I compromised medical field in a school based setting. And so that's, that's why I decided to go for school based and then meeting mentors in my field work setting as well, and you meeting and continuing to talk to you for like, the past, what two years now, I learned a lot. And you know, the community, like the OT world is a small world, and everyone knows everyone. So especially now with social media, you could easily reach out to mentors out there, and that's why, like, I made it a goal of mine to, you know, give back to the community and mentor like potential ot students and new OTs as well. Yeah, and that's what I decided to go for school based. And your second question is, how I landed with this job?     Jayson Davies     Well, let's talk about before you let's before they jump into that. Let's talk about what were some of the things you considered when you were looking for a school based OT, job. I mean, districts are all different. Sometimes there's contractors. You know, pay is different when you decided to apply, what were some of the key factors you were looking for a job?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Okay, so definitely, as a new grad OT, my main goal is mentorship. I know I could easily, not easily, when I was looking at jobs for districts, they put two years minimum experience, so that kind of scared me a little bit, and so I That's why I didn't really look into school district jobs. But it is interesting because when I started looking for jobs, I went to indeed, I turned in my resume, and within 24 four to eight hours, I got three messages from different recruiters in schools in Southern California. And basically, when I was looking for jobs, I look at, of course, the pay, mentorship, schedule, workload, case, load, the camaraderie, like, how how many OTs are there in the company? One of the companies that reach out to me, I was on the phone, you know, they're interviewing me, but I'm also interviewing them. And I asked, how many OTs do you have in a company? And they said, you're gonna be the first one. I'm like, as a new grad, I'm not gonna do that.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I remember when you when you texted me that, like, yeah, that's a little scary, especially as a new grad, you know, you want to have an OT to bounce some ideas off of. I think I think I even told you, I was like, you know, you have me, you have your previous field work. Ci, so I know you're close to but still, you know when you're when you're diving in as your first year as an OT, you don't want to be doing it alone. I don't think.    Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes, definitely.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. So okay, so you looked at caseload, you look at pay a little bit mentorship, you said was key quick question about the pay. Was it transparent, or was it hard to determine what you might be making when you were looking for my job?    Jhennylyn Rivera     It depends on the company. So I learned when I was searching for a job, some of them are straight to the point. This is how much we'll pay you. Some of them did not list it, so it has an estimated and it had to ask during my interview. Um, so it really depends.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. In my experience, what I've seen is that districts are straight forward because it's in their like board of education guidelines like this is how much you will make step one through step seven, or whatever it might be, versus contractors, it tends to be a little bit more secretive, and you get that range per se. The other thing that I've noticed is that districts, it's, it's salary versus contractors, it might be hourly, they kind of make it, they kind of make it a salary per se, because you're gonna get eight hours every single day for 100 and whatever days, but at the same time, it is technically still, still hourly. And so if you don't work a day, maybe holidays, or whatever it might be, then that's time that you don't get paid for. So yeah, that was that's one thing I've noticed. All right, so then, what did you ultimately decide on, how many districts did you apply to, and what was that process like?     Jhennylyn Rivera     So I did not apply to district jobs. So because all the experience kind of like daunted me, but like, even in OT school, actually, I was already eyeing this company, this company that I work for right now. I have two friends that are still in there. I had multiple friends that you know, that worked there before, so they're really known in OT in Loma, Linda. And this is a small, big company, like our big, small company. It's a small company, but they're big because they have over 100 OTs and, you know, a dozen PTS, and they have a main office in Fullerton, I'll just mention, like, the cities, and then we reach out all the way to, you know, 20 miles away to, like, All the way down south to Long Beach area. So it was a pretty big company, and they're known for their mentorship. And like what I said, pay, of course, we look at the pay and it's like a bit the biggest factor when you're taking a job. But me, personally, I went in for the mentorship, and if you would like me to talk more about the mentorship my job this company for new grads or new hires, especially for new grads, we are assigned with a one on one supervisor, so we have someone to text, to call you decide how often you want to meet The supervisor. But for me, right now. I We meet once a week for an hour, but if it's a high profile cases, we could be for hours. And also, we have a weekly mentorship meeting so new hires for the whole year, we meet with this specific mentor, and we talk about, like, our how our week went, What's, what's the craft that you did for this week? And, you know, the highs and the lows of the week. And if you have any questions, also, you have, like, what I mentioned there, they have over 100 practitioners, so you have access to 100 over 100 OTs for advice, resources, for questions. You could just send out a blast email to everyone if you have a like a random question out there that you can that your supervisor doesn't have any answers for. Yeah, so that's why, that's what I heard from my friend, and that's what I mean, what I'm experiencing right now working for that company.     Jayson Davies     That's great, because I know there are a lot of companies out there, both districts and contractors who kind of, yeah, we'll give you mentorship. And really, sometimes that mentorship ends up being maybe, like, a subscription to occupational therapy.com or like, they don't really provide the mentorship that they say they're going to provide. And from talking to you both just now and from what I've heard you speak about over the last few weeks, you know you are getting that. In fact, you even mentioned that as a new grad, you get like, an administrative day, right?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes, wow, day. We have 14 hours of admin time per week, yeah.     Jayson Davies     14 hours. So that's like a day and a half. That's almost two days.     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yeah, so my schedule basically it's eight o'clock to, let's say three o'clock, depending if you have an IEP, if it's a longer IEP, then. But at the end of the day, I have at least an hour of admin, and then I have a solid day of admin time for reports, organizing, treatment prep. If I do you know, when I started, they started giving me more kids. If I feel overwhelmed, I just have to, you know, reach out to admin or the owner and tell them, Oh, this is what I feel right now. And they were able to adjust my schedule. They took out or they didn't really force me to take kids and gave me that make sure that I have that 14 hours of admin time, because I need that right now, especially with report writing, and I'm still super slow three months in.     Jayson Davies     That's how it works. That is definitely how it works. It takes time to figure out what we're doing so that. But that's very cool, that your your company, recognizes the importance of giving you that time upfront as a business owner. I mean, I think of it as a way of investing in you. You know, they're making sure that you're learning the right way, because that way down the line, when you're working for them five years later, hopefully, you know that's, that's, of course, their their hope is that you'll stick with them long term. You're going to know what you're doing, and you'll be that person that that the new grads can reach out for help and provide the support that they need. So that's that's really great that they're giving you this time. Now I want to move on to our next subject, and I almost feel like we might have to split this episode up in two, because we are talking about so much, and I love it, but you talked about districts wanting more experience, and so you actually were scared to apply to those a little bit. I want to dive into that just a little bit deeper you touched on it, but explain a little bit more about what your what you were seeing in those job offers, and what how that made you feel.    Jhennylyn Rivera     Well, that is just my personal, you know, personal insight when I was looking at jobs, but for new grads out there, don't like take my experience, and you know, it's a subjective insight. I know someone and my previous field work, my level two, we had, when they came in, they had new employees, or two new employees, and one of them actually went to the same school that as I did, and she's a new grad, um, she had a field work experience in a unified school district in in the Southern California, LA, I believe, and she was able to get a job right away at this at the district. So it really depends. So that's one, but also two. I saw two years experience, minimum and certain certifications.    Jayson Davies     right? Yeah. So so that your your colleague that got that job, were they asking? Was that district asking for two years of experience? Do you know?     Jhennylyn Rivera     I believe yes they did.     Jayson Davies     So she decided to apply anyways, and lo and behold, even as a new grad, they were able to take her, okay.     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes, because I believe it really depends. I mean, the two year experience is just on paper, if you had a job before, I believe she worked for the school district as well before I was an ABA or some kind of position. So she is familiar with the school district and also how well you, did you do on an interview what kind of professional development you did before you applied. And so you know, you invest in yourself before, and that's why I'm telling the students that I meet right now, try to not just limit yourself to learn what you learn in school. Look at other opportunities out there, like your conferences or your state association conferences, they offer professional development classes that will help you learn things. Because I learned a lot of things outside classroom before I even graduated, which helped me get to where I am today. The resources, you know, 1000s and 1000s of files from my school based field work educator before. And yeah, so don't limit yourself out there.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. And honestly, if you're listening to this interview, then you've probably already listened to several episodes of the OT school house podcast, and I have had so many therapists reach out to me and say, You know what, because I've listened to your podcast, I was able to get a job. And I don't know, I don't. I've never had anyone reach out and say, like I listed it on my resume or anything, but just the knowledge that they get from listening to the podcast, they're able to better express themselves during the interview process and better answer any screening type of questions that might pop up in the in the application process.     Jhennylyn Rivera     So yes, and may I say, Jayson, like you're, you're, I'm not just telling this because you're my friend, but, well, I mean, in OT school, I listened to the podcast too, because school based OT, it's like a different world of OT, because we only got a quarter of learning in school based. But it's like you speak a different language when you go into school based. So there are terms that you don't really even even starting in the job, like, there are things that I still don't know. And the podcast, and I know you have a blog about this too. And when I was in my field work, I wrote five blogs about my experience, like, how to prepare yourself, you know, the the alien language of school based OT and yo, yeah. So I'm just just to, like, verify that information, like listening to OT school house has widened my vocabulary and my understanding of the school based ot world that and learn things that I didn't really learn out there.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. I appreciate you listening, and I especially appreciate you coming on and sharing so much of what you've learned even through this process. So the whole point of this podcast was to get to your first three months of actually working as a school based OT. We haven't even gotten to that point like where you're hired yet, but I know this is going to be super helpful for anyone listening, especially students out there, anyone that's thinking about transitioning to school based OT, so I don't want to skip this part, and that is a little bit about the interview process. I don't want to go too deep into this, but what were you expecting, and what did it end up looking like going in and in doing that interview.    Jhennylyn Rivera     I guess I'll make it this brief, and because my experience is different, because, of course, if you apply for a school district, I heard that they asked, you know, school based ot specific questions, like, what's an IEP? Like, what to expect? How they give you case study, like, if this student has this, what are you going to do? My experience, this doesn't happen to everyone. I literally just came in because, I mean, I told you I was already looking at this company before I graduated, and they, my friends, already told me that you're not really interviewed for what you can offer as an OT, they're looking more in personality. So when I mean, we have some ot topics in there, but I was in there for two and a half hours, oh, wow, talking about my life, my interviewers life, and our connection in OT and, you know, yeah, so it's more of a personality interview. So it's, it's, it's, I can't, I'm sorry I won't give you much detail, because this is not helpful, because for other like, I don't know, like the district interviews would be something different that, like COVID OTs would experience. But I guess what I was trying to get into was, what was I trying to say? Of course, I came in with a folder. I researched, this is self information. I researched salaries for Glassdoor, indeed, ot  salary.com and I was ready to negotiate during that interview. So this is one thing when it goes to your interview, get ready to negotiate. Have a list of questions. So I did have list of questions, of course, about your benefits, the workload, the caseload, mentorship. You know, expectations, how many hours a week you're supposed to work? What kind of everyday, activities as an OT, yes, I guess this way.     Jayson Davies     wait, I have a question. You went in with a folder ready to negotiate. Did you negotiate during your initial interview?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Not really, because I spoke to with an owner and it was an HR question, so I had to wait for my offer, like try to do that in negotiation after I got offered.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. What was so you did some homework, and I'm not going to ask you how much you're getting paid, but what was that range that you were finding for Southern California, that OTs were kind of, what were you kind of, what was that range you were expecting?     Jhennylyn Rivera     It was really a huge, wide range. It's funny because coming in an OT school, you're expected to pay, oh, this much. But it ranged from 65 to 120.    Jayson Davies     65 to 120 an hour an hour.     Jhennylyn Rivera     I mean, sorry, okay, a year, a year.     Jayson Davies     Yeah. Okay.    Jhennylyn Rivera     So it's a huge range. You know, it's like a double range. So it really depends. So of course, district will probably pay more, and contract companies are probably going to be pay lesser. But, yeah, that's the range, 65 to 120, per year.     Jayson Davies     And that's, of course, that's Southern California. It's very specific to region. You know, things change from from one place to another. So just want to clarify for anyone listening that? Yeah, it is definitely a Southern California area that she's talking about for 65 to 120 and that's what I've experienced as well in in my past. So All right, let's get now to you have a job, you are working for this company, and explain kind of how this looks the larger picture. You talked about it being a contract type of company. So so just kind of give us an outline of what that looks like for you.     Jhennylyn Rivera     So, contract company we have. Each company is different for us. We have a satellite office, our main office in Fullerton, and we service different districts. I think we have six or eight, and each of those strict districts depends too. So one district have two dozen employees, one district would probably lesser. Mine has 12, so different districts, and I'm assigned to one district in the LA, LA area, and I service three schools. I go to to, Monday, Tuesday, I'm in one school, Wednesday, Friday, I'm in a two different schools, and then I have my Thursday as admin day.     Jayson Davies     Gotcha. Okay, so three schools within one district. How far away are? How far away are your schools? About just general, five minutes, 10 minute drive.     Jhennylyn Rivera     Five to 10. I was, yeah.     Jayson Davies     Pretty close. I mean, you're in a very suburban area, so that makes sense. All right, cool. I just wanted to everyone to have a picture of what we're talking about, because other people might be in a much more rural area, and so what we're going to talk about will still apply, but keep in mind that it will be different than your experience. So now you figured out you're in a job. You've got your schools assigned to you, what were some of the first things you remember feeling like that you needed to do in order to get prepared to start working in those schools.     Jhennylyn Rivera     So I definitely went shopping. So as a school based OT, and that's the reason why I like one of the factors to why I went to school based because I'm I'm a crafty person. I love making stuff, and before even learning about how the stipend for the therapy materials that we have, I already went shopping for Play Doh on papers, pencil pencil grids. Because, from my experience in my school based field work, I mean, those are the things that I are. I encountered, and my supervisors actually gave me a gift at the end of my field work, and had some like essential therapy materials in there, which I build on. Um, I basically have my closet school based ot stuff. So I went shopping also. I reviewed my terms, my terminology for school based IP IE, who are the members of the IEP team. What do they do? How can we provide help as an OT? What do we do as an OT? So basically, I just refresh myself on the things that I would need. Also reach out to my mentors, I believe, like you know, if they have any advice for me, starting in the job, what to expect, what are the challenges that I and how to how do I overcome it? Yeah, yeah. So that's pretty much what I did. I mean, I also, of course, ot interview process, I looked in their professional development package, because I want to tie that in during the school year, because some companies I wasn't sure. For ours, it expires at the end of the school year, so I have to incorporate that in my schedule and when I should take and so this is also a promotion I'm not sponsored, but a shameless plug, shameless plug. But calling out, hi, Beverly, I'm going to attend the Size Matters handwriting program in June, and the company is paying for that, for that, well, a part of it, we're getting $300 for professional development, but also paid hours to attend it. So, yes, I looked at professional development, that I could take certification, that I could get a hold on, you know, like just to invest in myself, to give back to my my students.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. And for anyone listening, if you haven't already, Episode 89 that was with Beverly Moskowitz of the Size Matters handwriting program, and that's the course that Jenny was just talking about. So check out episode 89 if you want to learn more about Bev. And all right, you had administrative time. How did you use that first week of administrative time to get prepared?     Jhennylyn Rivera     So first week, I did a lot of initial chart reviews, because I don't know anything about these kids. Definitely the first and the good thing about this company too, you know, I'm not sponsored, but the first two weeks, I was only shadowing my supervisor, the OT that I was going to replace, and she was there doing her routine, and I was just following her, asking questions, and I'm already paid on the clock and the admin time during those two weeks. I reviewed charts, I looked at reports, I treatment prep for the next week. So basically, that's what I did.    Jayson Davies     That's important. You know, you got to get organized. And knowing you, I'm sure you probably figured out some spreadsheets to put together and documents and got all the goals and organized in a very particular way. And I recommend doing stuff like that too. You know, take time to get organized, if you can. And you know what that might be, something that you need to speak up and tell your boss. Because a lot of companies, you know, they expect you to, day one, start seeing kids. And that's a very difficult expectation, because, I mean, as an OT, you know, I like to think that we are very ethical people. And, you know, it takes time to start to know what to work on before we should just be thrown in and working on it. Right? We need to develop a treatment plan. And it's hard to build, hard to develop a treatment plan if you don't know anything about the child you're about to work with. So speak up to your boss and say, you know, what? Can I take a day or two just to look at the files and get organized a little bit? Definitely. Yeah. All right, so I just want to ask you about the first couple experiences that you had. And maybe we, I mean, I don't know. We'll see how it goes. First evaluation or two. Tell us about the first few evaluations you did, the experience that you had with that.     Jhennylyn Rivera     So wow, in three months, I already done a lot in my company. We don't do initial evaluation as a as a new grad and as a new hire, which is awesome, but I've done a lot of tries. It was, it's, I guess it's a subjective experience too, because it depends on the kids that you're working with. I was assigned in a school, the only school in the district that has an autism program. So most of my my kids are more severe and so, you know, coming into ot school, oh, we learned about this evaluation, you go step one, step two, step three, yeah, and now it's doing so right now I've only done the VMI Berry and the Peabody. So beer is pretty straightforward. You go with the VMI, the the visual perception and the motor develop, the motor coordination. It was sad. My first one, it was pretty sad, because it's motzi beer, and the kid was, I believe it was first grade or kinder, and, you know, unable to sit down for the task for the entire time, lots of verbal, visual and physical prompts. So it wasn't really, it wasn't really, I didn't really see much on that evaluation, so that is only the standardized part of it. But then I also did some functional assessments to have them, like the drawing, the coloring, the grasp, and also interviewed educational staff, because standardized stuff is just one thing, and then you probably learn it from your podcast. So yeah, that's my first evaluation, even it didn't really go as planned. I mean, never. I mean, nothing goes planned. You just have to be flexible on the spot. But I've also had peabody was pretty challenging, because you go by, okay, step one, step two, but if the blocks are already in front of you, you just have to, like, do the blocks.     Jayson Davies     Yes, I totally remember I used to have a little cheat card. I made, like, a three by five, three by five note card. And I put, like, all the block activities together, all the paper and scissor activities together and like everything. So that way you just do all the blocks at once, and you just stop once you get to, you know, the the failed whatever block attempt, right? They couldn't do the bridge. So you stop. But, yeah, the Peabody, if you try and do it in order, it can take forever because you're constantly switching materials. But if you learn how to batch it a little bit, it can go a lot more smoothly.     Jhennylyn Rivera     Definitely, I'll probably need a copy of that.    Jayson Davies     It's long gone. Sorry. I mean,    Jhennylyn Rivera     I could rewrite it, but write it to get familiar, to get more familiar with it right now, because it's still a learning process.     Jayson Davies     Absolutely all right. So that was the first evaluation. Let's continue down that road. So you did the evaluation. You know, you made it through. It didn't go quite as planned, but you made it through. Tell us about the first few IEPs. How'd you feel?     Jhennylyn Rivera     First few IEPs, I was definitely scared. I think I was talking to you about this, I was scared. And the good thing with that too, my company too, my my supervisor, was there to, like, attend with me for like, first two, three IPs. In case they have a question, they can back me up. But, you know, I have to be confident of what I deliver, because, you know, and also the IEP they attended and delivering information that the previous ot have inputted, because it's a transition. So I wasn't really fully familiar of it. That's why we're there's two of us tagging out tag team presenting the IEP, but it's definitely scary. But it was virtual the first month. I believe it's still virtual, because it's January, February, March is when we started to incorporate more in person. When I went to so first virtual, and then I did my first in person. That is also scary, because I love public speaking, but I guess if the if it's something that I do for the first time. I mean, of course, you get the jitters. But of course, as soon as you stand out there, you just have to, I just have to be myself, like you make jokes here and there about the kid you you've tried to focus on the on their strengths, like you're deliver because I've, I've sat on Iaps that are really sad, and we try to, you know, strength to approach, to get a strength based approach on our IEPs, and that's what I try to do with minds. Because, you know, we are servicing the kid we're we're here to help them improve, and we want to empower them using those strengths to build on the challenges that we're trying. To work on.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, so and there. There might not be an answer to this question, but have you had to sit through an IEP that was very difficult, where you struggled because for any reason that was going on? Or have they gone mostly pretty smooth? So far?    Jhennylyn Rivera     No, I have sat in a couple high profile IEPs IPs that had lawyers before, had advocates already. Wow, they didn't attend on my IP, but they had it before, but it's still the longest one I attended so far here is two and a half hours, and that's in person. So and I like, have to stretch here and drink my water. But, you know, I mean, I cannot blame the parents. I know a lot of people are saying that always challenging parents, but they just want the best for their kids, and they were trying to work as a team to, you know, have a middle ground and to provide what's best for the kids.     Jayson Davies     100% absolutely great. Well, you know, I'm glad that, for the most part, they've gone smoothly. I'm sure there will be one in the next year or two that will be a lot more difficult, and we'll have to talk about it again. All right, so I don't again. We're getting close to where we should wrap up, so I'm going to, I'm going to wrap up with a few questions quickly. Tell us what your caseload looks like right now, both in numbers and the type of services that you're delivering.    Jhennylyn Rivera     Okay, so my case load looks like number wise, I started with 35 and in three months I was able to pick up five or six more kids, so I probably in 4045 something, but that depends the service wise. It ranges from six times a year, collaboration to once a month, collaboration to twice a month, collaboration to once a week, collaboration two, once a week and compensatory so It arranges my case load and yeah, difficulty depends as well, but yeah, number wise, 45 and services.     Jayson Davies     All right, two questions, based upon what you just said, compensatory, I'm assuming that means that the student was owed extra minutes from either Miss sessions or whatever, and so that's the compensatory time.     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes. And then, you know, those are the pro the high profile ones that they had, lawyers and advocates and yes.     Jayson Davies     And I think we're also seeing some of that right now because of the pandemic, there are people arguing that, you know, those services don't count, and that that is for each district to figure out how they're going to go about that, right? Yeah. Then the other thing is, you use the term collaborative model a lot. You said six times a month or six times a year, collaborative all the way up to one time a week. Collaborative? Was that on purpose using the word collaborative? Are you? What does collaborative mean to you?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes, I mean, I guess it's in purpose, because we have the collaboration model and individual model. So for my individuals, basically, I have an OT office in at least all of my schools. We have two, one school, we have an OT office in one school. I have a room, a designated room, that I use. And, you know, in one on one individual, I take, I pull out the kid from class, and then we work on ot goals in the office. Collaborative model can basically include talking to the teachers, the staff, the parents, as well as pushing it. Could also be a few times pull out just to do the assessments and the goal progress, and then a lot of basically communicating with everyone in the team.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that's great. I love that you're already starting down the collaborative Road, even within your first year of school based OT. I can tell you this right now. 10 years ago, when I started as a school based OT, collaborative approach, like wasn't even a thing. So that that is fantastic that you are over. I mean, again, I shouldn't say the way that I said it, because it's it was a thing, just not where I was, not my schools. And so that's great that you're already jumping in. Because I always tell new grads, it's hard to do a collaborative, you know, it is easy to pull a student out and work with them one on one. I mean, you pull that student out, you know, we're not thinking this, you know, cognitively, but it's not in the forefront of our brain, but we're pulling that student out. There's no one watching us. There's no one grading whether or not what we're saying is actually like working or not, until we give our progress reports. But doing that collaborative approach, getting into the classroom, it is tough, and you've got to build relationships with the teachers, with the aides, with the lunch noon duty aides, if you're working out at lunchtime, with the principal, the speech therapist, everyone. So kudos to you for already diving into that collaborative model. That's That's fantastic. Fantastic. Two more questions.     Jhennylyn Rivera     Sorry, just to add to that collaboration model, because lres Least restrictive environment, if we pull out the kid, we pull them out from the education or the curriculum that they're missing in class. And you know, like having the team in my district, they're really supportive from, you know, the school, the cafeteria people, the custodians, the teachers, the admins, I try to learn their names. I'm pretty okay with names, so I when I see them, I call them their names out and, you know, try to try to make that rapport and relationship with everyone.     Jayson Davies     Yep, that's That's smart. I that was something that was always a struggle for me, was remembering everyone's name. I even would put, I would even put people's names into my phone, into a Notes app, so that way, like as I was walking into a classroom, I could remember the name of the age. You know the teachers. It's easy to remember the teachers you know you're you're in constant contact with them, with IEPs and whatnot. But the age, sometimes they move around a lot, and it's just, you know, you you get so much more. The more you put in, the more you get out, right? So the more effort you put into working with them, knowing them, the more they're going to work with you and work with their parents in the way they that you want them to. So great, feedback on that. Yeah, all right, last two questions, and they're going to be more upbeat ones. I hope. What would you say you have enjoyed most in your first few months as a school based OT?    Jhennylyn Rivera     I definitely enjoyed I'm a person who doesn't like being cooked up in a building for the whole day, and I know this might be stressful for other people, but I like the change, the flexibility. Every day is different. I may have a schedule to follow, but it also takes cognitive flexibility to Oh, skit doesn't show, doesn't as absent today. What are you going to do? You have to, like, try to move your schedule around. I like that part of the job. And also, some people don't like being in the car. I like the the traveling between schools, because that gives me that gives me a time to reset, take that I know you have an episode about mindfulness, to take that minute or two to just breathe, because that is really important, especially the first two months, I was crying probably almost every day, because it's so hard. I was thinking of quitting because, like, coming from school and then going straight to, like, 40 hour per per week job, and it's physical, and then you have to do reports. It's really a lot, and that driving part between my schools gives me time to relax and reset and rest for a little bit before I hop in again. But I also enjoy meeting a lot of people, new people. When I walk in a school and they know that I'm the OT that they already automatically greet me and, you know, we chat about our lives, we learn about, you know, oh, you go to this church, I go to this grocery bar and stuff, I know. Like, like, I'm really, I'm extrovert, so like, slightly intro, I guess depends when I go home after work, I just want to go home, but when I'm at work, I'm in my A game. Like, I try to, you know, like, bring that energy at the job and you it. They give it back to you, whatever you get out to, you know, to everyone they it's nice when they call out. They call me by my name, not just because it's, you know, the teacher, the writing teacher, yeah, the fine motor teacher, so OT, yeah, so and they and I tell them what I do, so not just that those things that they are really hard for.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, thank you for you know, I preface that with I think these will be positive, but you're right there. There is difficult times, especially in your first year, and it's going to be tough a little bit. So with that, thank you for sharing a little bit about the struggle, but knowing that's a struggle. What advice would you give to anyone who is either a looking to get into school based OT, or maybe they just got a job last week and they're in school based OT? What advice would you give them?     Jhennylyn Rivera     I guess I have a few couple advice as one is believe in yourself, especially for new grads. Imposter syndrome, it is there. I don't usually like call it that way, but, you know, I don't really fully know what it is. I guess sometimes I feel it like, I feel like I'm not. I don't know what I'm doing, but you have to remind yourself that you're the one who went to school for this. You are the one who have OTR L, you took the boards, and you basically are the professional and coming out there, I don't know. I mean, I don't really go by this motto of, um, fake, fake it till you make it, but I don't, I don't really like it, but sometimes, I guess you just have to, I don't call it that way. But when you're even though you're unsure, you know, you just have to present yourself confidently. If you're if you're presented with a question and you're not sure, tell them honestly. Oh, I'm not sure. I don't know the answer right now. But you probably heard this from people like, but I'll look into it, and I'll get back to you. Don't give them like a false advertisement, like false information, if you're not sure about something, and also don't beat yourself up. You make mistakes. I did make mistakes, and I did beat myself up, but my supervisor said, which is a good thing with this company, they really not just there to make the productivity that they're there as a friend to, and they remind me to because they know my personality by now, I'm kind of a perfectionist, and they said that sometimes you just have to deal with what is out there, and you cannot make everything perfect, and you have to adjust, like on the spot, yeah, so I guess be flexible too. A lot of Type A's in OT school, and like me, things are not going to go your way all the time. It's okay to be prepared. It's nice to be prepared, but you just have to have a backup plan. I have a cart with me with a dozen of different activities. If one plan doesn't work, go to the next one. And literally, every kid is different. One kit may only last for one minute, and you have, like 2025, minute, um session, you just have to adapt and grade your activities up and down based on what they need.     Jayson Davies     Absolutely. Yeah. Great advice. Great advice. Yeah, you know the fake it till you make it thing, I have officially replaced that, and I think it was on a podcast that I heard this. But instead of fake it till you make it, believe it until you achieve it. That's the new one. Believe it until you achieve it. That's the one I'm I'm turning it into, because you're right. You know, we're not faking it. We do know what we're talking about. We just have to believe in ourselves. And when we believe in ourselves, we can achieve anything. So believe it until you achieve it. That's, that's what I'm replacing. Fake it till you make it with. All right. Jenny, well, thank you so much for coming on really quickly share where people can learn more about you. Obviously, you're helping me out a little bit at the OT school house, but outside of that, where can people find you?     Jhennylyn Rivera     Yes. So pre ot students, I have a YouTube channel of all my experience during ot school, and even now, even though I'm well, I'm busy, I haven't been uploading videos, but a lot of informational videos from my ot school experience, and you can see it. Jenny berry OT, I believe I don't even remember my YouTube anymore, because my website is Jenny berry com, j, h, e, n, n, y, b, R, Y. I mean, Jayson is going to put a link on the website, um, YouTube, uh, website and Instagram, um, Jhenny Berry, OT.    Jayson Davies     Yep. And I marked those down, so we will add those to the show notes. If you'd like links to those. Head on over to OT schoolhouse.com , forward slash episode 102, wow. I still can't believe we're in episode 102. But Jenny, thank you so much for coming on the OT school house podcast and sharing your experience. I couldn't have asked for anything more, and I know this is going to help so many ot practitioners that a they just graduated, or maybe they're still in school and just thinking about they want to know what to expect once they get out of school. This is all going to be very helpful information. So thank you. I really appreciate you being willing to come on and share your experiences, and you're very welcome. It's so much fun. Let's do it again. Sounds good. We'll have to do a one year update, maybe, or something. All right. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, I will catch you later.     Jhennylyn Rivera     All right, bye.    Jayson Davies     All right, and that is going to wrap up Episode 102 of the OT school house podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. I am sure there are more people listening to this sentence right now than there usually is at the end of every ot school house podcast, because there was just so much great stuff there, and she was just so exciting to talk to. Thank you, Jenny, so much for coming on and talking about your experiences here within your first two months of being a school based OT. I hope that you found this episode so helpful, and if you did, please just share it with your friends. Share it with a colleague who is ready to make that switch to school based OT, share it with that new school based ot practitioner that you work with every day. Let them know about the OT school OTs podcast, and that this episode is worth the listen. And go ahead and listen to all the other episodes we got going on. There are so many good episodes within the podcast, and more are coming in the future. This is episode number 102, we dropped this in June. So this is a good time to be looking for a new position, to be looking to make a switch from maybe one career to another. Maybe you had a kid and you just want to have summers off, and so you're thinking about moving to a school position. That's great. Thank you so much for being here, and I hope to be able to support you in so many more episodes. We have so much going on at the OT school house, the website and with our conference coming up in August, so I hope to see you there, but yeah, I'm going to take a moment to breathe. Sign off, and I will see you in episode 103 of the OT school house podcast. Take care everyone. Bye.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to OTs schoolhouse.com . Until next time class is dismissed.  Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen where you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 103 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Are you constantly wondering how to be more evidence-based when working in a school setting? In this episode of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, we discuss how using client-centered top-down approaches will allow for more evidence-based practices and what top-down approaches look like with children in the schools. We are speaking with the creator of the CO-OP approach, Helene Polatajko, Ph.D., OT Reg. (Ont.), OT(C), FCAOT, FCAHS, OC, and the creator of “A Guide for Implementation: Using the Principles of CO-OP to Frame a Top-Down Approach with School-Aged Children,” Lara Collins Barros, OTD, OTR/L. Guests' Bios Helene Polatajko, PhD, OT Reg. (Ont.), OT(C), FCAOT, FCAHS, OC Helene Polatajko is an international occupational therapy scholar whose work focuses on occupations and enablement. She has over 300 publications, is the co-author to the Canadian Occupational Performance Measure (COPM), and created and developed the Cognitive Orientation to daily Occupational performance approach (CO-OP). She has presented in over 20 countries and has received many awards and distinctions, such as being named a Fellow of the Canadian Academy of Health Sciences, the Muriel Driver Lectureship, and election to The American Occupational Therapy Foundation’s Academy of Research. Lara Collins Barros, OTD, OTR/L Lara has been a school-based OT in the Chicagoland area for over 25 years. When completing her OTD at NYU with the mentorship of Dr. Polatjko, she created and developed the CO-OP Principles for Participation which is an evidence-based guide for implementation that uses the principles of CO-OP for school-aged children with a top-down approach. What you will Learn Listeners will learn the principles and guidelines of the CO-OP approach and how they apply to school-based OT Listeners will learn how the CO-OP was developed Listeners will learn the difference between the behavioral approach and the cognitive approach Listeners will learn more about top-down approaches Listeners will learn about guided discovery and the role a supportive adult plays in the process. Quotes “I created these guidelines to show there is a way to be evidence-based in the schools” -Lara Barros “We want to learn something to know what we can do. Not to know what won't work” -Jayson Davies “Collecting your own evidence is so important”-Lara Barros “CO-OP is problem-solving. You have a goal and have a kid get as specific as possible… and observe the actual performance”- Lara Barros “In CO-OP, generalization is a major focus. Taking the skill, whatever that skill happens to be, into the place that it needs to be in the real world, and building on that skill so generalization transfers” - Dr. Polatajko “The thing about guided discovery is being very careful about just the right challenge” - Dr. Polatajko “By doing the task you will improve the component skills” -Dr. Polatajko Resources CO-OP approach website TEDx - The Problem with Cookie-Cutter Therapy University of Toronto course (CO-OP) Principles for Participation A Guide for Implementation: Using the Principles of CO-OP to Frame a Top-Down Approach with School-Aged Children Developmental Coordination Disorder - CanChild.ca Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hello and welcome to another amazing episode of the OT school house podcast. So excited for you to be here today, and before we dive into the content for today and introducing our wonderful two guests that we have talking today about an amazing topic that if you've read the title of this episode, you are probably salivating, because you are ready to learn all about the co op model I know I'm ready to share with you. I This has been seriously, this was one of the best episodes I've recorded in a long time, and I'm really excited for you to hear about it. But before I do that, I want to give a special shout out. You know, you don't get to 100 episodes or 102 103 now without a little bit of help, and so I want to give actually, a special shout out to my brother in law. His name is James. We call him chemo, but he's my brother in law. He is my wife's brother, and he has been editing the OT school house podcast episodes for some time now. And I just thought you should know that. You know, I know some of you, some people reach out to me and they're like, hey, Jayson, I don't know how you do this all on your own. And the truth is, I don't do it all on my own. I have help. And so a special shout out to chemo for holding down the episodes, editing them, putting them all together, so that we can share them with you, and so that you can learn about school based occupational therapy every other week. And so I really appreciate it. Thank you so much chemo for putting this in. You're probably blushing as you edit this right now, you better not cut it out. But yeah, thank you so much. Kimo, all right, with that, I want to go ahead and actually introduce our two speakers. A lot of times I let them introduce themselves, but these two speakers deserve a little bit of an introduction, and so I'm going to start with Dr Helen  Polatajko. I'm sorry, Helen, if I butcher that, I really tried. This is a hard name to pronounce, but you know, Dr  Polatajko is a she's an occupational therapist from up north in Canada, and she has done amazing things. It wasn't till about five minutes before I jumped on the episode to record this that I also realize that she is actually the brilliant mind behind the Canadian occupational performance measure, the copm. Yeah, you know, it's not every day you get to hop on a call with the creator of the copm. And it's not just within the field of occupational therapy that she is known for her brilliant contributions. She was actually appointed as an Officer of the Order of Canada in 2021 and she is also a fellow of the Canadian Academy of Health Sciences. In addition to the copm Helen also developed the co op approach. The Co Op approach stands for cognitive orientation to daily occupational performance, and that's what we're here to talk about today, the co op approach, and how that applies to school based occupational therapy. So let me introduce our second guest on today, Dr Lara Barros. And Lara actually was an understudy, if you could call it that, of Helen. She completed her OTD with the support of Helen. Now, Helen lives in Canada and Laura lives in Chicago. We're going to talk a little bit about that and how they got connected. Got connected down the road, but now they have worked together, and Laura has actually put out a guide to using the principles from the co op approach within school based occupational therapy. So that's what we're going to talk about today, a little bit about the development of the co op approach and then how it applies to school based occupational therapy with both Helen and Laura. If you're listening to this and you've already registered for the back to school conference in 2022 you might have seen Lara's name on the list of speakers. Laura is going to be talking at the actual conference, going more in depth about the co op approach within schools, but we're going to talk a little bit about it today. If you're interested in the back to school conference and you're listening to this before August 26 2022 head on over to OT schoolhouse.com/conference to get registered now, or at least learn a little bit more about the conference. So without any further ado, I'm going to bring on Helen and bring on Lara, and we're going to talk all about the co op approach. So go ahead, get comfortable, or if you're driving, keep your eyes on the road and just listen. And while you do that, I'm going to transition us into our interview with Dr Barros and Dr Polatajko. Hello, Dr Polatajko and Dr Barros. How are you doing today? I will go ahead and let's start with Dr Barros. How are you doing today?    Lara Barros     Doing great. Thank you.    Jayson Davies     Anything special going on today?    Lara Barros     Not really, not here. Mardi Gras, I suppose, right.    Jayson Davies     Yep, yep. We are recording this on today is March 1. Right. March 1. Yeah. Happy March, everyone. I. And what about you, Dr, Polatajko, how are you doing?    Helene Polatajko     I'm doing fine. Thank you.    Jayson Davies     All right. Did I say it? Right? Polatajko.    Helene Polatajko     Almost, Pola, as in Paula, you know? And then Tyco.    Jayson Davies     Tyco, Oh, right. Thank you so much. Names are difficult, you know, we try our best, but names are difficult. So thank you both so much for being here today, and you know, rather than asking you how you all got started and found yourself in occupational therapy, I actually want to start with a different question, and that is, what is one of your most fondest memories of being an occupational therapist? And Lara, would you like to go ahead and start.    Lara Barros     Sure, Why not? I would have to say that one of my most favorite memory, or memories of being an OT was when I was doing my OTD. I had just taken finished a course where we had to kind of try to create, like our own kind of guideline, right? So we had, so I had created this with a partner, or this thing about, kind of a self monitoring thing for the classroom and all this stuff. And then the next semester, I took a course where we went back to the theories be, you know, the the models that are that, you know, are the foundations for OT. And I turned the page, and I found the cognitive orientation, daily occupational performance, the the co op approach. And I was like, I just, I just can remember, like, reading the description over and go over again thinking like, how, you know, anyway, just thinking I had found gold, right? So something that like I, I guess the, you know, younger people today say I was, I felt very seen when I started reading that so.    Jayson Davies     Well, that's awesome. I'm hoping that when we, as we go through our conversations today, I'm hoping that there's many people that are listening that will feel the same way, because we are here to talk about the co op approach, and so that is awesome. Now I have to share a little story before Helen, I asked, What's your most fondest memory is, because I was, you know, we were scheduling this podcast, and I had no idea that I was about to jump on a call with the creator of the copm, the co op model, and you have just done so much for our profession. So first I want to say thank you, and also, like I said, give you that opportunity. If you had to pick one thing, what's kind of your most fondest memory as an occupational therapist?    Helene Polatajko     Yeah, I don't know if it's a memory. I guess it's a memory. I guess it's a memory, but it's certainly a moment. My most favorite moment, and it has to do with the words that Lara just used, which is about being seen. Is when I was a young therapist, my first job ever, I worked on what was then called a back ward where the children that nobody has any hope for are placed and basically forgotten about. And one of the children on that Ward was this little boy named since she his real name was Jesus. But I guess, because it's a very Christian environment, people decided not to call him Jesus. So they called him since she and since he was a little boy. I had cognitive delay, of course, slight, slight, very slight. CP, very few words, the most amazing smile. And every morning, when I came to work, as I opened the door to come on to the unit, he would run across the corridor, jump into my arms and kiss me, hello. Oh, that is my ot moment of all time.    Jayson Davies     That is awesome. You know, it's amazing that you know, no matter how much you create in this world, no matter what books you write, journals, you write, podcasts, you create. It's those memories that stick with us a lot of times, the ones that that that kid that we we touch their life in some way. So thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that. So I just mentioned before you answer that question, that you're the creator of the copm, however, Dr. Barros Lara over here, she is not in Canada. So how did you two come to work together?    Helene Polatajko     Well, if you want me, I'll go first.    Jayson Davies     Sorry. It's open ended.    Helene Polatajko     From my perspective, how we got together was Laura sent me an email saying, Can I talk to you? And I said, sure.    Jayson Davies     yeah. And Lara, you want to add to that?    Lara Barros     Yeah, I mean, that's basically it. I had taken the introduction course, and I reached out to my, one of my instructors, and was like, you know, I'm trying to use this in the school. I want to make sure I'm doing it with fidelity, right? I want to make sure I'm doing it well. And then, um, probably within what, like, an hour, we were connected. So it was, it was amazing.    Jayson Davies     Wow, you know. And I'm in, yeah, go ahead.    Lara Barros     I'm in Chicago. Helen was in Toronto at the time, right? And I was, I'm in school at NYU online. So.    Helene Polatajko     Who knew? And it was in the depths of of COVID. So everybody was on Zoom. Anyways, really matter who was where?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I love about podcasting, YouTube, the internet has made the world just much smaller these days, and it's quite amazing. And you know that that story also just shows that, you know, never be worried about sending an email, a cold email, out to someone. You never know what that person is going to. Respond. I mean, yeah, some emails get lost, but no one looks at an email and, like, purposefully says, No, forget that person. I'm not going to respond or anything. At least not very often. For the most part, OTs are very kind, and we're open to receiving emails and and and getting back and especially when it comes to working on an OT project about something that you've created, I would imagine that you're very eager to help people when it comes to the co op approach. How many other I'm sure you've had other OTD students and whatnot that you've worked with, anything stick out as far as a specific program that you helped develop that was really great?    Helene Polatajko     So not a lot of OT students, because there are no OTs in Canada, doesn't exist. That's right, but lots of PhD students who've done various pieces of work around Co Op, you know, one that comes to mind was a woman by the name of Sarah McEwen, who was a physio with 15 years experience in stroke, and she was working as my research assistant, and she kept looking at this stuff, and she's saying, you know, this should work with with stroke. This should work with stroke. I think this should work with stroke. So we ended up doing a stroke study and looked at Co Op and stroke, and she and we've done a number of other since. And then one time I got an email. I had done a co op workshop in London, England, and I got an email from one of the participants who said, you know, I work with kids, young adults, sort of teenagers, young young people with severe dystonia. And, you know, Co Op seems to work with all kinds of kids, and there's nobody knows what to do with people with severe dystonia. Could we please try Co Op? And that's generally how it happens. Somebody sends me an email or asks me a question, or I go to, I do a workshop, and somebody in the audience says, What about and because my dedication is always to research, if I my answer to What about as always, well, we either have data, or if we don't have data, are you interested in doing the research?    Jayson Davies     That's a good way to look at it. That's a great way to look at it. Let's, let's get some data. Awesome. Well, yeah, yeah. We are here to talk about the Co Op, the cognitive orientation to daily occupational performance approach. So I want to dive right into that. For many people listening, this might be the first time they've ever heard those six or so words put together. They might have heard Co Op, but not necessarily know what it exactly means. So Helen, I want to give you the chance to actually just share kind of your elevator pitch for Co Op. When someone asks you, what is Co Op, how do you respond?    Helene Polatajko     Well, first, I want to talk about the word daily in there, because it's cognitive orientation to occupational performance. Was the original name. And we, and I work a lot with colleagues who are not OTs, and they know I work in pediatrics, and they say, Well, really, you're doing occupation with children, that seems a bit odd, like, aren't there laws against that? And so I said, Well, I'm talking about the stuff they do every day, and how does the word daily in front of the word occupation work? And everybody was happy. So that's why it's daily occupational performance and and it is daily occupation performance, but because it's all about figuring out what we can do to help people do the occupations that are important to them to do. And it's using it's a top down approach, and it uses their own cognitive strengths, their own abilities, to identify strategies that help them be able to accomplish the tasks, the goals that they want to accomplish.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha. And it sounds very occupational therapy, so I love that. And going a little bit further, and you can answer this question as well as, how did the co op really come to be into existence? What What drew you to creating this model?    Helene Polatajko     So I'm a researcher, and I'm a clinician and I'm a researcher, and I had my PhD was in the area of sensor integration. Very excited about it, because it was such a hot, exciting topic at the time. And my research, my early research after my PhD, was all on interventions that therapists were using, because mostly people do them, and there's not a lot of data. And I'm very, very married or dedicated to getting data. So I started doing a whole bunch of research studies, and the joke in my lab kept being that my P value was larger than my T or my F, and if you're not a stats person, it means that there is no result like basically it makes no difference. So after doing research for several years where everything I did made no difference, clinicians were starting to not want to work with me, because it just kept showing that what they're doing doesn't work. And so out of frustration, I decided that, you know what, we're going to stop looking at helping and I was, I was always in pediatrics, we're going to stop looking at helping children do better by using these sort of various sensory, motor, neurosensory, motor, neurodevelopmental approaches. And we're going to do what I used to do with since she, you know, the little boy, when I worked with sin, she, we were a behavioral unit. We use behavioral principles. And I was frustrated, because I know I can take a child. An IQ of about 20 and teach him skills. I can do that using a behavioral approach very simply. It's hard work and it's long work, but it's not hard to do, not as intellectually hard to do. And now I can't take a kid with a DCD or clumsiness who's got an IQ of 120 and I can't teach him how to write his name. That just doesn't make sense to me. So I decided to abandon all of those things and go to a behavioral approach. But because we were talking about kids with, you know, normal or better IQs, I didn't want a straight behavioral approach. I wanted a cognitive behavioral approach. So that's how we got to co op.    Jayson Davies     I want to ask you to ask you to actually go a little bit further on that cognitive approach versus behavioral approach. How do you kind of delineate the two?    Helene Polatajko     So a cognitive approach, a behavioral approaching, was all about observable behavior, stimulus and response. So you do something, you do a response. I reinforce it. It increases the likelihood of occurrence and and if you do, if you don't do it, I don't reinforce you, and it decreases the likelihood of reoccurrence. COVID behaviorism arose some years ago, many years ago now, because what they started to notice is that when you were doing these studies, if you told the subject, and these are intellectually normal people, if you told the subject what the reinforcement schedule was. And, you know, the research on what reinforcement schedules do and what kind of behavior they create, and how that behavior works, whether it's a scallop effect or a step effect or what have you that clear, that research is well established. It's very clear. So what they did was they would tell people what the reinforcement schedule was, and then they would actually implement a different reinforcement schedule than the one they told them, but the behaviors that emerged were consistent with the reinforcement schedule they were told, not the actual reinforcement schedule, which made it seem and that's the case is that The cognition, the thoughts, the thinking was actually controlling behavior much more so than the actual reinforcement schedule. Oh, interesting. And basically, that's kind of the birth of cognitive behaviorism. So now what we do is we use ideas to help you through your through whatever you have to do. And that's what Co Op is all about. It's all about cognitive strategies used to help you perform.    Jayson Davies     Wow. Thank you. That was a really good explanation. I appreciate you taking that and just going with it. That was great. Now, you mentioned how you kind of started with children and developing the co op approach. Was that simply because, at the time you were working with children, or was there a specific reason that you decided to go that route?    Helene Polatajko     Well, as I said, my PhD had been on sensor integration, and I had been working with kids with learning disabilities. And so the kids we were working with were all kids with learning disabilities, and as I said, I was getting very frustrated because we weren't having any effects on their outcomes. So we tried to identify an approach that would work with kids. So we used cognitive behaviorism. Drew a lot of work from Mike and bound. Donald, Mike and bound. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but gentlemen stuff, but he does a lot of cognitive behaviorism using problem solving techniques. So we thought, we decided, You know what? These are bright kids. They know how to problem solve. Who can use their skills as Problem Solver to help them solve these problems, their performance problems. So if you can't write your name, what is that about? And let's solve that performance problem. So that's how we started, and that was my population. All of my research had been in the area of DCD, so that's how we ended up working it with kids.     Jayson Davies     Great. Well, thank you. Now I want to kind of switch gears just a little bit and go back to Laura here, because, like you both mentioned earlier. It started with an email, a simple email to Helen about wanting to do an OT project, about Co Op. How did that turn into this project that you have where you created guidelines for school based OT? Lara?    Lara Barros     Well, Helen would probably say it was hours and hours of trying to figure out what I could do and what, what I could actually do, because the research was there, right? Because I originally wanted, I originally clicked with Co Op, because of, I see so many children with kind of regulation, emotional and regulation issues, and they can do everything, but they couldn't do anything, right? You know, you, you they have everything, but they can't perform. So, um, after a very, you know, a lot of a lot of thinking, I really thought that, you know, I created this guideline because I wanted to be able to, I want to be clear, too. It's not the co op approach that this, that this guideline is, it's that using the principles of Co Op, right? So if in order to learn the co op approach, you need to take a course. There are books. It's more in depth than my thing. It's more about using these principles to become evidence based in the schools. And I, you know, I'm a school based therapist. I've been at school based therapist for 20 some years. And you know, always, you know, therapists are always hearing, oh, like you need to push in, you need to do this, or you need to be evidence based. And I, what I found is that, you know, really great therapist I work with. Didn't were resisted pushing in because they felt like they felt like an assistant, right? They felt like they were being a paraprofessional, and they didn't know how to push in right, how to be in the classroom and feel like a therapist. And I also saw so many people still and still tied to these performance component, you know, like, not a bottom up approach versus a top down approach. So I wrote this kind of as a way for therapists to hopefully have at least one way to see that they can be evidence based in the school, right? You know, because I think there's in and one way to try to do it, right? I mean, yeah, I would like to say the best way, but, but there, you know that there is a way to be evidence evidence based in the school, great, and you have to completely change how you're thinking, right?    Jayson Davies     You gotta completely change how you're thinking to be evidence based.    Lara Barros     Yes, yes. Because, well, not to be evidence based, you have to, like, turn you should change what you're doing, right? Because most there, did you want to say something? Oh, you finished, and I was going to add something to, okay, yeah, because I think what you'll see, and I, like, I, and I did read, read research from this, like, therapist would say, oh, I want to push in. I want to do this, but it interferes with my ability to do these performance component like, you know, using playing games with, like, fine motor games, or doing these visual motor or visual perceptual task. I can't. How do I do that in the classroom? So they're kind of this disconnect of, like, of, you know, of what it means to be evidence based. Does that make sense?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I think so. And Helen, I think Helen wanted to add on.    Helene Polatajko     Yeah, yeah. I think the in terms of being evidence based, this is sort of back to, you know, why do we even start with Co Op at all? Why did we created, being evidence based the evidence right now, and it's been there for some years, the evidence right now, in terms of Pediatrics, is that a top down, task specific, task oriented approach. That's what the evidence supports. The other approaches that have been around forever more, that are very bottom up. So, you know, improving your visual perception, improving your midline crossing, and proving your grip, improving your bilateral coordination, all of those approaches that do that one way or another, they don't have the results. They just don't have them the evidence doesn't support their use. So if you want to be evidence based, you have to go to top down approaches, because the other approaches just don't have the evidence behind them. Now, once you go to top down approaches, then how do you actually do that? And that's, I think, where, you know people like Lara are, because I think so, how do you do that? And that's where, if you don't know what you're doing with that, it does feel like you're just, you know, sitting beside the student, like the way a teaching assistant would, because you don't know what you're doing, but if you do know what you're doing, then a top down approach makes a lot of sense. And in particularly if you do a co op approach from a top down perspective, it makes a lot of sense. And I just want to add it to that, like, because Larry didn't say, but I thought he might, actually so how do we get from where Larry wanted to be, which was looking at self regulation, and how could we use co op for self for for self regulation the school system to using the principles of co op to help create guidelines for school based practice was through a process called Guided Discovery. Like, I don't know if Larry realized that that's what I was doing with her.    Lara Barros     Not, not obviously, in the moment, but yes, afterwards, I'm like, Oh, perfect. It was perfect. Yes, yes.    Helene Polatajko     So regarding her discovery, she says, I want to do self regulations. I want to do this. And then we start asking questions about it before, before you know it, it's, oh, I guess we should do these guidelines. Wasn't my idea? Was her idea?    Jayson Davies     That's perfect, yeah, because, you know, I'm a master's thesis advisor, so I have four students at a local university that I work with, and yeah, it's kind of the same thing. You know, they come to me wanting to know what I want them to do. And that's not exactly how research works. We have to look at the literature that's already out there and find those gaps, and then kind of move from there. We can't just kind of say, hey, I want to go after this. We need to figure out what's actually out there, right?    Helene Polatajko     I have to say, you're lucky if you students come to you saying, What do you want me to do? That'd be great. Most students come to me and say, I want to do this. Can you help me? That's usually how it works. That's how it worked with Laura too.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I, I think that's, you know, they do kind of come and say, I want to do this, but I have to re guide them, kind of what you're talking about a little bit, I think, to to look at what's already out there, because they might want to be doing something, and then they realize, oh, that's already out there. Or, you know, they can't find any research on it. Well, why do you think that might be one thing that I am a little not judgmental about but you know, if you read an article, the conclusions are typically going to be, this works. We don't often read articles that say this or, okay, maybe not, this works, but we think this is going to work. We need to continue doing evidence, but we don't read articles probably because they're not really published that say. Eight this didn't work, and that's because they're not getting published, necessarily. And so, you know, there's a lot to look at an article, read and take away from it, and also what you don't get.    Helene Polatajko     My PhD dissertation was that this did not work result. And it was, it was initially very hard. It was, it had to do with ot stuff. And it was initially very hard, in fact, impossible, to get it published in OT but I did get it published in developmental medicine and child neurology, which is, you know, better journal anyway. But it's hard to get negative data republished for sure.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I bet. I mean, no one again we want to read something to learn what we can do, not necessarily to learn what isn't going to work. So, yeah, all right, so we've kind of already dipped into this. But Laura, if you had to say you had one two main goals for your capstone project putting these guidelines together, what would you say? Those were.    Lara Barros     Um, I would say something that was, like action oriented, not just like thinking like thinking like something that was actually, I feel like I'm in the point where I'm like, I don't want to hear about what I'm supposed to do. But like, how do I do it, right? And, like, and also seeing people around me struggle with that, like, how do I do this? That would be the first one. And then obviously, I mean, like, I I said this before, when I found Co Op, it was just connected to where my brain was, you know, I have, we can go when we go into some of the principles we can talk more about, you know, just wanting to have the child's voice in it, so much more, but also having it be more than an instinct, but have it be like real that, you know, this really does happen. I think that was it, um, that child center in this, you know, just a way to collect evidence as well. You know, to collect your own evidence. Like, I think as a OTs, we're always asked to collect data, and you're taking data on stuff, and you're like, you know, I don't know that what this data I'm taking is not particularly useful to anything or anybody. So I think the other thing was, is that using Co Op and using the P, Q, R, S, which is part of the process is you can collect your own evidence, like you said about reading articles. You know, even if you find an article that's like, oh my gosh, it's so close to what I want to do, it's this, there's always something that makes it not be completely applicable to your population or and no matter what, you have a kid in front of you who's not like that person in that study. So you, you know, collecting your own evidence is is so important.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, and I want to move on, but I also want to stay on that with collecting your own evidence. What do you do within your practice to collect that evidence? Are you writing in your daily notes, a little you know, two out of three attempts were complete, or whatever it might be. Are you using some sort of computer programmer? What does collecting data for your own evidence look like for you?    Lara Barros     Well, I think that's probably jumping a little bit just because we I think we should talk about the co op approach being like, starting from the goal right leave. Does that make sense?    Jayson Davies     Perfect. Yeah. I like. I tend to get ahead of myself sometimes. Yes, we will get there.    Lara Barros     So I don't know if we're at the point where I can just go ahead and say like, like, so it's a top down approach, right? Co Op, and so you start with the goal you don't like, rather than going and like testing, Oh, you don't do like, the VMI. You don't do like, Oh, let me check out the classroom. You don't, you don't do all those things ahead of time, you said you have a conversation, it can be the copm, right, and you could say, Hey, what are you know, what do you want to do right with a kid and and sometimes in the school as well, we don't the goals don't always come from a student, right? A lot of times the goals come from a teacher, something that the kid has to do right, or is expected to do, and so, but always finding the time to kind to translate into something that the child has decided doesn't, you know. So, so maybe the teachers like, oh, they need to write like this much. Well, then you talk, you know, there's this conversation that goes on. What do you if you had to write this much, like, how? You know, what would you want to write about? You know, whatever. However you get to the child's goal, you have to start with a with a goal from a child.    Jayson Davies     Awesome. Yeah, I completely love that. It's, I always tell people that the first thing we really need to do is develop that occupational profile, right? We always have to start with the occupational profile, and part of that is realizing or understanding why the child's even being referred to us. You know, there needs to be kind of that overarching what, what are we looking for? You shouldn't just get, at least, in my opinion, the teacher shouldn't just say, hey, I need an OT referral for Johnny, and then we just go look at Johnny, like, what are we looking for? We need to know what the concern is, what the goal is, like you just mentioned. So absolutely, we're going to continue that, but I want to go one thing backwards, one step, because in the guidelines that you have, you pointed out three very particular participants, and two of those, I think, makes complete sense. You have the occupational therapist ourselves. You have the student, obviously we were. With the student. But then you also mentioned a support adult. What do you mean by the support adult?    Lara Barros     Okay, and that is part of the co op approach, right? So it's not something unique, and I didn't, I didn't make that up, but the supportive adult is really the person who I mean. First of all, they're your go to person, right? Like in general, right? This is somebody who needs, who has to be able to see the kid do what their goal is, right? And so this person is going to be your ally. They will, they will be the person who helps with the generalization and transfer, and also kind of actually report what it looks like when you're not there, right? And so they can help. You can actually teach the adult, this supportive adult, how to do Guided Discovery. Because I think what we see in schools, from OTs teachers, everybody, everybody wants to see a kid be successful, right? And so we go in there and we sharpen their pencil, just right. We like, you know, tilt their paper, so teaching this person what Guided Discovery is all about, and what you're doing, leaving a plan. I mean, I think it'll all make sense later that they'll they'll be the person that is the one who can report back to you. Does that make sense? And it could be that teacher, it could be the in the schools. It should be someone in the school, and you can also have the adult, the parent or the Guardian at home. Yeah.    Helene Polatajko     If I can add some Co Op has four basic goals for any intervention, those the same goals for all people, for all our clients, the first goal is the person's goal. So whatever that person wants to do in Co Op, we usually ask for three goals for lots of reasons. We can talk about theoretically, if you like, but we usually ask for three goals, but it's got so the first thing is goal achievement, goal attainment. So whatever that goal is, you know, riding your bike, riding your name, playing Nintendo, catching a soccer ball, kicking a soccer ball, whatever your goal happens to be. So that's always. The first goal that we have within Co Op is that we achieve the goal that the client wants. The second goal we have in Co Op is that the client learns strategies. They learn to use a problem solving strategy, which is a meta cognitive strategy, and they also learn to use domain, domain specific strategies. We can talk about all of those things, if you like. The third goal is generalization, and the fourth goal is transfer, generalization, and transfer is about the child or the client being able to do the thing that they're learning with you and OT out there. And then transfer is about the client learning how to do the thing they learned with you in OT and then related skills or different skills. So I know when I was a therapist, when I was a practicing clinician, and the teacher would tell me, you know, that kid has real trouble focusing, or real trouble, you know, using a pencil or stuff. And I used to be really, really proud, because when I worked with the kid in my sessions, he was fine in my sessions. He paid attention the whole time, like I had an hour session, he was with me for the full hour. I don't know what's wrong with that teacher, because he can't keep his attention right. So that's about generalization. That's about if I can manage your attention for an hour, what can I do so that you can take that ability to attend into the classroom? And mostly we don't worry about generalization. But in Co Op, it's a major, major focus, taking the skill, whatever that skill happens to be, into the place it needs to be in the real world, and then building on that skill. So generalization transfer,    Jayson Davies     that's great. I really like that, because kids don't go to school to get therapy. They go to school to be in education. And so if what we're doing is only helping them in the OT room, then we are not necessarily meeting the goal for that student when it needs to be done in the educational setting, right? So perfect. You mentioned some problem solving. And I know, Laura, you've had some several different pieces of the puzzle when it comes to your guidelines, and a few of those guidelines really revolved around problem solving. So I just want to let you elaborate on those principles a little bit more.    Lara Barros     Yeah. So really, Co Op is problem solving, right? So you have this goal, you you try to get the kid as specific as possible, right? So recently, let's say I have a, I have a girl who wants to cut paper. She has to cut every you know, her spelling words out, right? She wants to cut it, but the the she's really bothered by the sound of the paper, right? So, for cutting for some reason, right? So this is something that she's identified. So she wants to be able to cut neatly, whatever. So get it as close as possible, right? The goal is, is as specific as possible, and then to actually observe the the actual performance, right? So sometimes in the school, you might have to have someone record it, because you're not there exactly when it's happening, right? So if possible, you can to do that and then, or, you know, in any way, so you want to observe the actual performance. So that's part of that's the first thing. That's the dynamic performance analysis, right? So you're watching it, and you're kind of, you're recording, and this is where the p q r, the first p q, r s, comes into right? This the performance quality rating scale. So. Then, based on what their goal is, you watch their performance, and then you determine, on a scale from one to 10 how close they are. You know, where, where is their performance at on this, on this self identified goal, right? And then, and then what you do is, then you you identify the breakdowns, right? So you're not saying like, Oh, they're too weak. They can't do this. You're saying, Oh, she cuts off the line, right? You just, you, just, you do whatever. Just an observe, an observable, observable behavior that you can see, versus trying to think back and like, try to sound like technical, which I think is OTs. I think sometimes when, when we don't know what to do, we try to sound more technical, right? And so I think it was kind of a relief, too. So you say, you might say, Oh, she drops the scissors, right? She she stops, and she shakes her hands a lot, like something, what are you seeing that's interfering with her? Be able to her being able to do this. And so that's the first thing, right? You watch this performance, and then, like Helen just talked about guide discovery, which she so cleverly did on me before I was very good. Is that and then is the process of helping the child? First you want the child to i to kind of identify their own you discover their own breakdowns, right? So helping them kind of see whether or not see what's happening. Do you know? You know, kind of was, did it work or not? And, you know, let's see why, you know, why? What do you think might have gotten in the way, kind of a thing? And then helping them, helping guide them to their own strategies, right? So let's say, if someone's I think, um, Helen always gives that example, which is a pretty good example for kids, right? Is the like, you know, so many kids try to write and their papers moving right? Like, they're not holding the their hands, not down their papers, moving their writing, so just doing things super like helping guide them. And then, like, I guess I'm jumping ahead. That's a bit of an enabling principle, right? So you're kind of showing them. You're showing them however they need to see, so that they can they can be one. Oh, wait a second, my hand needs to, you know. So you're trying to doing what you do best as an OT that you typically would have done on your own, guiding them to figure out on them by themselves. I love that. I know Helen can probably say it a lot clearer than that, but.    Helene Polatajko     the example of the paper moving thing is, is, is one of the first kids we worked with, and we're working with the child, and we're working on handwriting and the kids writing. And of course, he's not stabilizing his paper, because they don't. Many PCD kids don't. He's not stabilizing the paper. And so from a Guided Discovery perspective as a therapist, I realized that he needs to stabilize his paper so, but from a Guided Discovery paper, sorry, perspective, I say, Huh, that's really interesting. And the kid kind of goes, what's interesting? And you go, Well, I don't know. Like, I don't does this. I wonder if that happens when I write. And the kids like, What are you talking about? What are you talking about? We go, Well, when you write, the paper moves and the kicker? Oh, really, yeah, does the does my paper move when I write and the kick? So then you write, and, of course, you very, very blatantly, slap your hand down on top of the piece of paper so that it doesn't move. And the kid says, No, your paper doesn't move. And then the next question is, does that matter? Like, does it matter if your paper moves or doesn't move when you're rent right? And then eventually, the child discovers that he needs to stabilize his paper, and that he has a helper hand to do that with. And then homework, the homework becomes so this helper hand, and this is a true all the all my stories are always true, by the way, I don't make them up. And so this kid, his his homework was to go home and find five other things that you can use your helper hand for and come back and tell me next time. This is the generalization transfer piece that we're talking about, right? And so it seems like opening up a bag of popcorn or a bag of potato chips or, you know, buttoning my dress, my shirt, whatever. So five things, and then the next piece of homework was and the other thing I want you to find out is, does everybody in your family have a helper hand? And you know what happened? He came back and his brother didn't have one. And you know what? He wasn't going to tell him.     Jayson Davies     He wasn't going to tell his brother that he didn't have a helper hand.    Helene Polatajko     No, and he wasn't going to tell his brother that there is a helper hand.    Lara Barros     about his brother.     Helene Polatajko     He was going to let his brother struggle.    Jayson Davies     Figure it out on his own, huh?     Helene Polatajko     Yeah, BCG tends to run in families, right? There's a genetic component. To DCD. And so if he, if he's got DCD, somebody is likely to have DCD in that family. So when you send him home with the homework, it's likely that somebody's going to come back and not have a helper hand.     Jayson Davies     Interesting.    Lara Barros     Yeah, and I was going to say, like, with my example, with the scissors, she noticed that she really holds onto her scissors really hard. She really grips them really hard. So and like, one of the things about the school is we don't have 45 minutes right to work with a student, so we had to kind of leave it at there. We we talked about, okay, that you hold your I wonder if that's what's making cutting so hard, right? And not not the exact words, but then also saying, Okay, well, why don't you, why don't you go over the next week and play around with like, what happens when you hold your scissors different ways? Or are there other things that you hold really hard that you that if you if you held them lighter, you could still actually hold them and it would work better. So that was this girl we didn't get to, like the final thing, right? But we're able to use what she discovered about her performance and have her work on it through the week. And actually, I was supposed to see her today, but she was today, but she was absent, so I don't know how that worked out.    Jayson Davies     That's all right next time next week. You know, I really like the conversation we're having right now, because I feel like there's a lot of occupational therapists out there, not just in the schools, but in general, that feel like, if we're not hands on, then we're not doing occupational therapy. And I'm sure you you could both speak about this, and I'll give you that chance in a moment. But, you know, I'm thinking about a girl that I've worked with who she got so frustrated. She was trying to, I think we were cutting. She got so frustrated, she just threw the paper and the scissors down on the table. You know, me trying to do hand over hand in that moment would have been pointless. But doing something like what you're talking about, you know, helping her to guide through what's going on and see where the trouble points are, I think, would have done wonders. So, yeah, do you want to talk about that idea that if we're not doing, you know, hands on therapy, that's still occupational therapy. Helen.    Helene Polatajko     Sure can. I want to say two things about that one, in terms of the frustration piece, right? So from a Guided Discovery purpose, and this is why Lara said, before you know what we're going to we can talk about Co Op, but it's not going to help you figure out how to actually do it. Because one of the things about Guided Discovery is being very careful about just the right challenge, right? Because you don't ever want to get the kid or the whatever client, because we keep saying kids, and I know this is about ot school, but co ops, not just for kids. You don't want to ever get the client to the point of frustration, because from a behavioral perspective, then they're not going to want to do this ever again, right? So you want to be able to change the way you guide your discovery sufficiently that we never get to that point of frustration. And you want to be able to predict how that's going to happen. You also don't want to do the opposite. You also don't want to make it so simple that the child gets the sense of, Well, this is like, you just made it so easy for me. Like, it's not doesn't really matter, because, like, you're really the one who's doing it. I'm not really doing it. So you want the child to have ownership of the solution. You want to have the child ownership of figuring out what's going wrong. And you want the child to have ownership of figuring out that this is working well. So that's one thing, the hands on thing. And you know, I have to stabilize you, or I have to hand over hand, or whatever. My comment about that, and therapists ask about that often in workshop, my comment about that, I give if you're if it requires you sort of stabilizing the child's hips, let's say to do whatever. Are you prepared to like be with that child, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And if you are great, then let's use stabilization. But if you're not, then you have to think of different way to do it.    Jayson Davies     So real quick, I want to just push back, just for the sake of conversation and talking it out. What about using some sort of an adapted chair or something just going along with that? What would you say about that?    Helene Polatajko     I would say, and how many pieces of adaptive equipment sit in the back of people's cupboards, right? So an example we have is, and this was an older Well, compared to kids, but young, 45 year ish, older, 45 year old gentleman post stroke, about three, four years post stroke, who had been riding, who used to ride his bike all the time, and then during Co Op, he decided that he'd like to learn how to ride his bike again. And one of the problem from a dynamic performance analysis perspective, one of the problems with his bike riding is that, due to the stroke, he had lost all sensation in his right foot. So when he's riding his bike, when he tries to ride his bike, he has to stare down on his foot to guide the foot into onto the pedal and to keep it on the pedal, because he needs to use visual guidance. He can't do it from the sensation of the foot. So if you suggested to him, and somebody had that, you know, we could give you a bike, and we could give you an adaptive bike, and he's, no, I don't want that. I don't want anything like that. But that gentleman, because he was into bike ride. He happened to watch the Tour de France on the weekend, and all the professional bikers use toe clips. So no, he did not want an adapted bike, but he absolutely wanted those professional toe clips. So off he goes to the store, buys the best possible toe clips, gets the man on his bike. And now all we need is some visual guides to get his foot into the toe clip, and after that, he's home free.    Jayson Davies     Don't forget, you also need to get your foot out of the toe clips. Otherwise, it's not good.    Helene Polatajko     Getting out. He was fine, but getting into this, yeah, yeah.    Jayson Davies     Perfect. All right, that's great.    Helene Polatajko     Adaptive equipment is only as good as if the person wants it. If the person wants the adaptive equipment, by all means, but if the person doesn't want it, what's the point?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and I think we often, I mean, just as a whole, as OTs, or if you're in schools, the IEP team, we often forget about that, that piece, you know, the kid is not sitting there, often in our IEP with us, and we have to take into account how they might feel with whatever we're doing, because especially when you get up into middle school and high school, those kids care so much about the perception that they receive from others. And you know, we had a 1617, year old with visual difficulties, and the last thing he wanted to do for his social image was sit in the front of the classroom. And so we had to come up with another way. Otherwise, you know, he would have sat in the front of the classroom and then totally disengaged. And so.    Helene Polatajko     From a guided perspective, Guided Discovery perspective, you shouldn't you shouldn't be saying we had to come up with a totally different way. You should be saying we had to help her or him come up with a totally different way. The way that they felt that child's health was important.    Jayson Davies     And that's what was key for me. And because we're sitting in this IEP, and he's not there, and so that's what I'm talking about. We're trying to come up with an idea, and I had to bring that idea to the table. You know that because I had had those types of conversations with him, and he's that's how I knew to let the team know, you know he's not going to want to sit up there. We need to include him on this. So absolutely, this leads perfectly into, I think, the next question, which also Laura, it's going to feed back into where you left off with the copm with that student with the scissors, using the scissors and cutting. Where do you go from there? What type of service models fit best? I kind of think I already know the answer, but I want to let you establish a little bit more.    Lara Barros     Well, this girl is actually just an RTI kid, so like a response to intervention, just somebody, she happened to the teacher reached out because she had tried giving her she's a fourth grader. She had, the girl had, actually, it's kind of kind of funny, because it fit perfectly into this. She had the girl identified three goals on her own right. She had, she her, she has a y in her name, right? And she would reverse it. And then she also was having a hard time writing when she would write a times like from a math problem, like four times three, it would turn out to be a plus, and so she was having a hard time writing that, so that, and then the cutting piece. So really, she, this wasn't, this is an RTI kid. She came with her three goals. We didn't even really have to do much of an occupational performance or a profile, right? She she had them, and the teacher had already tried, like the basic like, giving her handwriting, she'd already done what the teacher could do, right? She'd really tried. And so, I mean, RTI, it's perfect for RTI, which, of course, that means that it's, it's perfect for a direct service, perfect for pretty much everything. The only thing it's would be hard for, unless you're recorded for, is, you know, just a pure consultation, where you're only talking to the teacher. It just requires more, more talking, right? Like in more more work on the back end, where, if you actually, the best way is to actually be able to physically see that the student that.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. So then collaboration is what often comes to mind, you know, getting into the classroom, potentially sitting close to the student. And I want to be careful, because collaboration is there's a difference between collaboration in the classroom versus, in my opinion, a push in one on one, where you're almost, I don't know when I think of push in one on one, I think more of that. It's pulled out. It's just in the classroom I'm going to be there as a support person, like you talked about earlier, versus a collaboration model, getting in there, making sure that we have all three people involved yourself, the student and the support person, likely the teacher or even a potentially an aide, helping with the with the process. Does that make sense?    Lara Barros     Yeah. So, like, what comes out of this dynamic performance analysis, obviously, with the Guided Discovery and just helping the student come up with their breakdowns, is a plan, right? So this student creates a plan, and how are they, you know, okay, this is, this is the, you know, like, I guess, with Helen with her paper, right? It would be like, Okay, I when I you she might not have had to do this, but, like, when I'm writing, I will put my hand down on the paper, right? It doesn't have, I mean, so there's a plan that goes back to the teacher, right? So, in. Sometimes it's or the support person. So that's like another piece of the collaboration. So even if you were to pull the kid out and work on this, you come back to the class with a plan. No matter where you stop, you come back. Well, this is what, this is where we're at, and this is what we're going to to focus on. Like, just Monday, I think I have a I have a little, I have a little kindergartner who he holds, you know, he holds his pencil very high on the on the pencil. And so we did some, you know, Guided Discovery, like, you know, way, where does it feel best, like, have his hand all over. And then I took a picture of where he said it felt best, right? Again, we're still in the middle of this right now, and the problem I'm having now is he's having a hard time understanding, like, how he would even get his pencil to look like the picture, right? He's, he's, he's not there yet, right? But he's, but we're in the process where we're, we're starting this. It's not always, like a 20 minute thing where they're like, Oh, I do this and look, it's magically done sometimes, especially with a this is a kindergartner, and he's also a kid with some language challenges, like both English as a second language, as well as just me having a hard he's he's got some articulation challenges where so it's hard, like the communication is can be a little bit challenging. So I guess I can't remember the question. Now, go ahead.    Jayson Davies     We were going on and talking about the process you were going through. So you know you had identified the concern, and now you were going through the, sorry, you're going through the Guided Discovery, and then trying to figure out problem solutions and helping him to.    Lara Barros     Helping him figure, yeah. So basically, what we're noticing is that, you know, he was having a heart. This kid was having a hard time writing in between the lines, right? And knowing that when you when you know, when you hold the pencil the very end, at the one side, that it's really hard to control, like, we just played around with, like, is there? Is it? Could this help if you held it somewhere else? Could it help? And then? So, that's what. So he's still in the process. So this is that was still his. His homework was to, kind of, to see, you know, to play around with that if it mattered where it was, hand was on the pencil.    Jayson Davies     Okay. Gotcha, now, let's go kind of full circle, because I started too soon with the data part, but now we've kind of watched through that process a little bit so and maybe a different example. It sounds like you're not quite there with this kiddo yet, but with another kid, OT, what does it look like down the road, a little bit when you get to that part to see if what you did actually worked?    Lara Barros     Okay, So then that's, well, it's the DPA is a continual, like iterative process, right? So you keep, you keep doing it, you keep doing it, and then you come up with a plan, and then you have the kid try it like in their real environment, right? And then kind of report back, Hey, is your plan working? Yes or no. And then at that point, I would either, I mean, it depends on the kid and depends on when you can do it, either get a teacher report back, right that yes, this is, this is working, or go in and observe, or have somebody record it to see, and then, then you would score it based on that. And if, of course, if it wasn't working, that'd be another time to go in and watch and say, what's what's going on? Maybe there's something that we didn't notice the first time that's happening. Or maybe, you know, a lot of times, if you fix, like, one thing, other things will resolve, but not all the time, right? So, um, so just always going in and looking and seeing the actual performance as much as possible, right? So that you can, because otherwise you can't pull in that environment piece, right? So maybe, maybe the kid next to him is, you know, is irritating him, or, like, like you said, you know, any, anything that might, that might impact performance, really?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and I want to ask you a question. There's no right or wrong answer the to this, I don't think. But when you take data, do you like to take data every single session? Do you like to do it once a month? Do you like to really, maybe quarterly? What does that look like for you?    Lara Barros     I think that depends on the student. I would say, like I would like to take, you know, I'd like to take the data when I'm when we feel like, when the kid feels like they have, they're trying out a new perform, you know, they're ready to show me. Then I'll do it with a p, q, r, s, yeah, that Gotcha. But I think it depends on the kid. It depends, and it also depends on the actual task they're doing, right? Something like, like the girl who's making the x's and pluses, right? Like, mixing them up. Like her, I did it, like we did it the first day. I mean, she once we fixed her. Why? Or we, yeah, once she figured out how to fix her. Why? She, then she, it was like, Oh, I we were like, Oh, I wonder if that plan that you had to fix your Y, I wonder if that will work, that strategy will work to fix your x right, like that, right? And so then, so then I just took data afterwards to double check and make sure it was sticking. Because otherwise, you know, I mean, like we said, just because they can do it in your room, right, it does not mean that they can do it in math class. So, yeah.    Helene Polatajko     some therapy, some therapists like to, so this is what Laura is describing. Is the pkrs performance rating scale. So we you know, how well is child performing this now on a 10 point scale and then at the end of your sessions, or whatever, again. But some therapists like, or for some kids, they like to do that PQRS with the child every day, right? So, so how good was that x yesterday? Or you could do something like So count how many times, how many x's did we make, and how many of them were the way we were perfect, the way you want them, and how many of them were not so perfect. So let's count how many perfect X's you did. I remember this one child we were working with handwriting, and the therapist, child was was doing really badly, and the therapist was getting frustrated. The child was getting frustrated because there were just so many mistakes, like so many mistakes, right? So I went back and I said, Well, how many were good letters? And then what we did was we kept track of, how many good letters do we do today? And what we kept track of was how many, not me, the therapist and the child. And then what we kept track of, we even graphed it, because that kid like that idea. So we've been graphed how many good letters? So what percentage of all the letters you wrote are good letters, right? It just changes everything. And we and what makes this and sometimes this A is a good a and this A is not a good a. So what's the difference between this two? What makes this a good a well, because it goes up higher, or it goes up lower, or the circles rounder or and once you start talking with kids about these things, they know it. They can tell you it's not like they have sensory perceptual deficits, and they don't even know the difference between a good circle and a bad circle. They know the difference between a good circle and a bad circle. But you can get them to do their own data recording, and then you've got for your charts.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I just keep thinking to myself that I love how it's there's that client centered self assessment piece to it, and that seems to be a really key point, valuable point, to using the co op approach. Go ahead, Lara.    Lara Barros     Yeah, I was just gonna say, and I know that just a kid today I have who was looking at his handwriting, right? And he was just give, you know, you find out a lot about their self efficacy, right? Their self esteem. Allow this with it, because this kid was being terribly hard on himself, like, like Helen just said, but, and he hasn't been hard on himself in the past, right? So just kind of, I think it gives you when they're self assessing, it gives you a feel for where they're at and and something else to maybe, that maybe is a breakdown, right? Like, something they need to work on with this. So, like, how do we help him feel better about what he's doing? Because, I mean, I would just say handwriting. The main purpose of handwriting is so someone else can read it, right? Well, if I can read it, then that's pretty good, you know? So, anyway, so just kind of changing. I always try to, too, like with the kids, help them understand the goal of what it is like. Yes, you want to write neatly and everything. But why is it important to write neatly, right? So someone else can read it, right?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, you know, handwriting is not in the AO or, sorry, the OT practice framework as an occupation. It is not a occupation on its own. Yes, it is very meaningful to many of the occupations of, you know, learning, education, work, everything like that. But it is not an occupation itself. The the whole point, like you just said, we need to be able it's communication is what it really is. And so if you can communicate, then, then we're doing okay.    Lara Barros     I'm sorry. You can tell that's like, a like, something that sticks with me, because I do have this conversation with OTs all the time. It's like, who cares if they can hand write, right? It doesn't. It's like, the purpose is the written expression, right? It's really so that they can do this assignment. They can do this, you know, they can. I mean, I do love for a kid to be able to write their name, right? I think everybody, every parent, wants their kid to write their name. But beyond, you know, beyond that, other than, like, finding out what is important to the parents and family, like, you know, if they're supposed to, if handwriting is super laborious for them and they don't know what they're saying, like, why not see if the kid, maybe the kid might be interested, you know, in trying out, like, technology to see, especially since it's so available to so many students. So.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and you know, we are getting a little far along in the podcast, but I had a question that I really wanted to bring up. And I know, I know Helen was really interested in this topic, because this is something that comes straight from the A O T, a community commune, OT, I should say, and it's about handwriting, where we were just talking about and someone anonymously posted and, well, I'm just gonna read it here. You know, they wrote that they found an A OTA document that stated, don't provide isolated training on the components of handwriting. And so their question was, is the research telling us not to use the interventions that address isolated component skills for handwriting at all. And what they cited here was actually a document that does come from a OTA that I don't know if it was the evidence practice type of stuff that they put out every occasionally, but there was a document and it said this. And so Helen, what would you what's your comments on this?    Helene Polatajko     Well, we've already talked a little bit about the evidence for top for. Top Down versus bottom up. Approaches and teaching the components of hand money is definitely bottom up. So I guess the question I would have for anybody who's listening is, let's imagine for a minute that you need hand strengthening, right? Because your hand fatigues when you write and and you need hand strengthening. So we do lots of lovely little exercises on hand strengthening, and now you've got your hands really nice and strong, and you've got great independent digit movement, and you've got great grip, even a lovely pincer grip. You've got it all. Everything's really good. Go ahead and play the piano. For me.    Jayson Davies     I can barely keyboard. I mean, like type, so yeah, that probably won't help me at all with keyboarding.    Helene Polatajko     So the point being, those component skills might give you difficulty doing a task, but if you don't know how to do the task, doesn't matter how good your component skills are, you'll never be able to do the task, and by doing the task, you'll improve the component skills. So if you need to learn how to write, then let's work on handwriting. And by working on handwriting, you're also going to get better grip and better pencil grip and better strength and all of those kinds of things. The difference between Co Op and other sort of handwriting programs, for example, or any direct skill training programs, is that the direct skill training, direct skill training works. We know that, right? The trouble with direct skill training is, after the training is over, it often fades down, like from an if you imagine the graph, so we didn't know how to do it. We're now doing it, and I know this is audio, and nobody's watching my visual, and.    Jayson Davies     We have a downward, a downward, right trend on a graph.    Helene Polatajko     Yeah, you have a doubt. So usually, you know you're you, the graph is going up because you're teaching the skill, and now we have the skill, and then therapy is over, and it plummets again. The reason it plummets again is because the skill, the task specific training, doesn't maintain, and it doesn't generalize, and it doesn't transfer. The thing that helps it maintain, the things that helps it generalize and things that helps it transfer are one motivation, right? If the child really wanted to learn how to ride a spike or learn how to write his name, he's once he's got it, he's going to do it some more, versus you decide that he's got to do strengthening of his hand. And then secondly, the activity, in and of itself, does that right? Like we talk about therapeutic use of activity, well, if y'all want to get a better grip, handwriting is a therapeutic use of activity, if you want to think about it that way. But the therapeutic use of activity does not become the skill, right? So it's kind of it's not that it's a two way street. It literally is a one way street. And then, so now we have the skill. If the child wanted that skill in first place, which is why we're client centered, then he's going to use that skill outside of the therapy room. And if you're going to start using that skill, then it will increase the ability to, you know, use his fingers or whatever. I think you said Jayson, that you had watched the TED talk with the girl on her bike riding. So one of the things, one of the side effects of her improving her bike riding is she actually had to start using she actually could get away with using her wheelchair a lot less, because one of the things that bike riding does for you is it increases the strength in your legs. So now she didn't need to lose her wheelchair Hardy at all anymore.    Jayson Davies     Wow, that's awesome. And yeah, for anyone out there, I will be sure to link in the show notes to the TED Talk that Helen gave. When was that? How long ago was that TED talk?    Helene Polatajko     Oh, I know, maybe three years ago now.    Jayson Davies     Okay, so still pretty recent. Seems like forever ago, but that's that's not too long ago. All right, yeah, I will link to that so you can all watch Helen share the story about a teenager who used the Co Op, who they collaborated. The team collaborated, using the co op approach to to support this teenager in riding a bike in super happy.    Helene Polatajko     The teenager who had wanted to learn how to ride her bike since she was five years old, because her whole family was bikers. She lives in Ireland, actually, and she had, you know, in fact, you can. She's given speeches on this stuff. She'd done chord strengthening, she done all of those kinds of things, and still couldn't ride her bike. And even though her family, as I said, her bikers, and she's trying to learn how to ride a bike since she was five, she's with 15 at this time. And she learned how to ride a bike in 180 minutes, she became an independent bike rider in 180 minutes.    Jayson Davies     That is very fast, very fast. Wow. Yeah, I was just watching, hoping that she knew how to use the brakes at some point, she's got this. Yeah, she's got the pedaling.     Helene Polatajko     Yeah. This is a young woman with just with severe dystonia, such severe dystonia that she had actually had to have a brain implant to try and control the dystonia.    Jayson Davies     Wow, wow. Okay, so yeah, we will be sure to link to that so anyone can watch it. And you know, TED talks are nice and short, and they're always fun to watch. So yes, we will be sure to link to that. All right, I want to wrap up, but I have one more question, because I think this is important in the guidelines, Laura, you kind of mentioned the importance of being in a supportive environment. And I just want to ask you a little. Bit about that, what should OTs kind of look for? But also, how can they support a supportive environment? How can they create a supportive environment within their schools?    Lara Barros     I'm trying to think, like, the best way to say this, well, I think one, one thing is, is to really become a part of the environment, right? To become a part of the school. I know it can be hard if you're like, in, I mean, I right now I'm in five different schools, right? I've had the luxury of being able to be with some of them for years. But it, I mean, it is tricky. I would say the best way is to talk to people, right? Is to talk to people is, I think the first thing is, is to, once you start collaborating, once you start asking the teachers, like, what their goal is and what that's going to what does that really need to look need to look like? You start to build these relationships with them, and then they start to understand more what you do. Because I think for many teachers, and Jayson, you might agree, and I'm sure you do Helen, that, like, what ot does is a mystery. They're not sure what they do, what you would do. And I think administrators, people who are administrators right now, we're mostly teachers in the heyday of working on performance component skills, right? The OT is the one who brings in these fabulous activities. They're so cute and they're so fun, but like, so just getting in there and kind of trying to change the perception of it. So I've, you know, what do I do? Like, I, you know, I joined book clubs, right? We, I, you know, I go in there half an hour early a week, and I join book clubs. And what I find as an OT is that these teachers that I work with are a lot more similar to me than I would have ever thought their their wishes and their hopes for these kids are the same. And then just take, I think, really, once you take the time to listen, right, and you take the time to show them, I guess the biggest thing I've noticed is when, as soon as you show a teacher that, if you ask a student, hey, what do you think, how do you think you should you should do this, right? Even if you don't go through the whole Co Op thing, right? If you just say, like, hey, how do you think this works? And then they, like, you teach them how just to even ask the kid. Because I think teachers feel this huge weight, and I think in OTs as well, feel this huge way to be a problem solver, like, I have got to fix this for this kid. But sometimes it's like a five minute conversation with a kid, and they, they know what, they know what they want to do, right? Like, what if I do this? Okay, well, let's try it, right? Like, so I think, I mean, I think it's just, it's about relationships as always, as far as in, in being present as much as possible, right? Is, I know it's hard, but.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, no, I completely agree. And one thing that I like to say is the the power of a quick win. And I think something like so many of the examples you've given today, that could be an easy, quick win that you do in front of the teacher, and the teacher sees it, and that teacher is now knows what to do the next time she sees a student not holding the paper, holding the pencil incorrectly, they know what question to ask, or they know what little accommodation to use. And teachers love that so much. I sometimes joke that us as occupational therapists, we go and we sit in hour and a half, two, hour three, hour long training sometimes. And when I go to conferences with my wife, their trainings are like, their sessions are like 30 minutes long. I'm like, Wait, how are you doing anything in 30 minutes long? But teachers are used to that. They're used to getting just what they need, not necessarily all the research behind it. And if we can give them exactly what they need. It helps us to develop a relationship with them, which, again, that supports a supportive environment. So.    Lara Barros     Yeah, yeah, I can say one quick, more quick thing, really, that is also tying it into something they're already doing, right? Like, so when I'm working with you know, I mean, most of what we get handwriting and regulation, right? Those are our two biggest things. Like, Oh, I can't get this it. So in my district I'm in, they use the ruler program, which is out of Yale, they use this mood meter. So if I can, the more I can get them to understand that sensory in quotation marks, right? Is no different than this mood meter here, right? Like, it's, you know, like, and bringing that cognitive piece into it, I think, like Helen said earlier, like the nothing magical is going to happen. So like, I know a lot of teachers are doing gold noodles. They're taking, you know, movement breaks, but hey, the reason why we're doing this is to bring the energy down in here, so that the kids actually are they start to understand why we're doing this stuff, not just like, magically thinking it's going to happen. So that's another thing, is tying it into something that they're already doing.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. Teachers don't want more work. They want less work, and if you can make it easier on them, they work exactly, exactly. All right? Well, we have been talking for a long time. I don't know. Maybe this will even be split up into two episodes. I don't know. Once we edit it, we'll figure that out. But it's it's obviously not long enough for someone who really wants to understand Co Op we talked about a lot, but as I think, Laura, you said earlier, you know you really need to actually go through the training if you really want to understand this. And so with that, where should people who are interested in taking that next step? Where should they go? Where can they learn more?    Helene Polatajko     The thing about the co op. Approaches. We're researchers and clinicians, and we care about people doing better. We're not marketers, and we're not great business people. So if you want to, if you want to learn about the co op approach, there is a free half hour video that through the University of Toronto that you can go look at any time. It's free for anybody who wants to go look at it through the University of Toronto, the occupation, Toronto, the Occupational Therapy Continuing Education tab, I think, other than that, you can take a co op course. There are, there is an online course, again, through the University of Toronto, that you can take. But mostly what happens is people organize training courses, and we don't organize them or anything, but people invite us to come and set up training courses. We have, you know, over 50 instructors, Co Op instructors around the world, and we do training courses in the various languages. So, you know, in in Hebrew and in French and in Italian and Dutch and Swedish and whatever. So basically, you can go to the website, you can find out you know who are the OTs in your neighborhood, or you can invite me and Laura, I'm sure, or be happy to come and set up a course, and we'll teach you how to do Co Op.    Jayson Davies     Awesome. And I'm looking at the website. It's, I believe it's the I Can Co op.com.org , sorry.org , so that's an area to at least get started with learning a lot more about what Helen just said. And who knows, maybe we'll organize specifically something for the OT school house that would be fun, too. So maybe we can even work something on under the next step. Laura, would you like to say anything else about what to do, what would be the next step for a school based OT?    Lara Barros     Um, I would say what I've told my friends, right, is just um, is start by just starting, you know, asking a kid what they want to work on, what is their goal. So, starting, starting there and then, and just, you know, just wait for what happens after that. Once you, once you start, including the kids more than, I mean, you'll be hooked, to be honest. So, so, yeah, do that. And to obviously, top down, right, like to start let go, like, let go of your bags, let go of your hours of treatment planning and and just go in and and be with the kids where they're at.    Jayson Davies     That sounds like the perfect sentence to end this podcast on. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate you both being here. Helen, I see your finger up. Go for it.    Helene Polatajko     Yeah, yeah. I just wanted to end the COVID the podcast with a slightly different end, and that is Co Op, we said, is a problem solving approach, the meta cognitive strategy that's used in Co Op is goal. Plan. Do check, What's my goal? Your goal today was to have a podcast. What was your plan?    Jayson Davies     I put questions together, and I was going to ask you questions.    Helene Polatajko     You put questions together. You invited us. And did we do it?    Jayson Davies     We did.    Helene Polatajko     And check, are you done? Are you happy?    Jayson Davies     I am not done. I've got to edit it. I've got, I actually got a lot to do, but I am happy with how this conversation turned out. So excellent.    Helene Polatajko     Right? So your plan is multi step, and we've only done a few of the stuff. Absolutely we've got a way to go. So goal plan, do check away to go. Oh my god, is the check.    Lara Barros     That is, that is absolutely amazing that we went for like, an hour and a half without saying. Goal plan, do check. I have I don't even know how it happened. Yeah.    Jayson Davies     Goal plan, do check. Alright, we got you check. Sounds good. Laura, Helen, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it, and I look forward to staying in touch with you all and watching the co op approach continue to move forward. It's been a pleasure, all right, and that is going to wrap up this episode of the OT school house podcast. I really hope you enjoyed learning a little bit more about the co op approach. Thank you so much to Helen and to Laura for taking the time out of their day to spend about an hour, maybe even more, with me talking about the co op approach. It's quite an amazing approach. It's very client centered, and it really does help. As you heard from Helen and Laura, they are using it throughout their careers, and yeah, it's it's just something worth learning more about. You can learn more about the co op approach for yourself at I can Co op.org or if you're also interested, check out the OT school house. Back to School conference at ot  schoolhouse.com/conference where Laura is actually going to be presenting about the principles of the co op approach and school based ot until next time, take care. Have a great rest of your day, your week and your month, and yeah, I hope to see you in the next episode of the OT school house podcast. Take care. Bye.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast, for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to OTs schoolhouse.com . Until next time class is dismissed Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! 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"Is It Time to Transition to Keyboarding?" How many times have you heard something like this from a parent or teacher? For students struggling with handwriting, typing can appear to be a straightforward solution. However, before recommending that switch, it is important for us as school-based OTPs to ensure that a transition to typing is not only feasible but also demonstrably more effective than handwriting. While typing may seem like a simple accommodation, it is far from easy for many of our students to learn and functionally use. Mastery of keyboarding requires fine motor coordination, visual tracking, motor planning, and working memory— and other skills that are often just as challenging as handwriting for some students. As such, the transition from handwriting to typing warrants a thoughtful, data-driven approach to ensure we’re supporting the student in the best way possible. In this article, I cover: Evaluating handwriting and typing skills Average typing speeds Performance skills & environmental factors When and how to make the transition Evaluating Handwriting & Keyboarding Skills As always, making a decision of this magnitude should not be initiated without supporting data. Determining whether to transition to keyboarding begins with a thorough assessment of the student’s skills in both handwriting and typing. Using standardized tools and functional measures, we can gather objective data to guide this decision. The goal is to determine the student's current ability and potential for improvement in handwriting and typing. Here are a few tools that can help. Handwriting Assessments: Test of Handwriting Skills-Revised (THS-R):  A standardized tool that measures handwriting speed, legibility, and functional writing abilities. Evaluation Tool of Children’s Handwriting (ETCH):  This assessment evaluates legibility and speed for grades 1–6, examining letter formation, alignment, spacing, and other mechanics critical to effective handwriting. Typing Assessments: Use free online tools like Typing.com  or TypingClub  to measure word-per-minute (WPM) speed and accuracy. These timed typing tests can provide baseline data for comparison. Conduct a functional typing task, such as having the student type a paragraph or answer written questions, to evaluate their ability to use keyboarding for real-world tasks. What to Compare (Handwriting vs. Typing) Speed:  Compare WPM for handwriting and typing. Typing should ideally be faster or at least comparable to handwriting to justify a transition. Here are some typing averages for reference: Grade Level Typing Speed (WPM) Accuracy 3rd–5th Grade 8–15 WPM 85-90% 6th–8th Grade 15-30 WPM 90-95% High School 35-45 WPM 90-95% (Source: Typing.com ) Legibility and Accuracy:  Does typing result in fewer errors and more legible output compared to handwriting? Task Efficiency:  Which method allows the student to complete tasks with less frustration and fatigue? With the data compiled, you can use a table like this to help the IEP team come to a decision. Task HW Speed HW Legibility HW Fatigue Typing Speed Typing Accuracy Typing Fatigue Copying 8 WPM 80% Mod. Fatigue 12 WPM 92% Mod Fatigue Dictation 3 WPM 60% High Fatigue 5 WPM 60% (Spelling errors) Mod. Fatigue Free Write N/A N/A High Fatigue 3 WPM 60% (Spelling errors) Mod. Fatigue With all of the data compiled in an easy-to-read chart, it is much easier to make a recommendation. For example, let's assume the chart above reflects a 4th-grade student. Not only does typing allow this student to copy at a quicker pace and with more accuracy, but typing also limits the student's fatigue and enables him/her to attempt a free-write. This data-driven approach would be very helpful for the IEP team. Performance Skills & Environmental Factors Typing, like handwriting, is a complex skill that requires a combination of motor, visual, and cognitive abilities. Before recommending a transition, it’s crucial to consider whether the student has the foundational skills needed to type effectively. These areas should be evaluated: Motor Skills Typing requires precise fine motor coordination and finger isolation, which some students may struggle with. Assess whether the student can consistently: Manipulate and use a mouse/trackpad appropriately Use appropriate finger placement on a keyboard. Coordinate hand movements efficiently across multiple rows of keys. Maintain stamina during extended typing tasks without undue fatigue. Ergonomic supports, alternative keyboards, key guards, and Other tools might help students with motor difficulties succeed. Visual Skills Typing requires students to shift focus between the keyboard and the screen to check their work. This demands strong visual tracking and sustained attention. Evaluate: Can the student accurately locate keys without excessive visual searching? Does the student lose their place on the screen when typing longer sentences? For students with visual tracking difficulties, larger key labels or high-contrast keyboards may help reduce errors. Cognitive Skills Typing is not just a physical task; it also requires cognitive processing and multitasking. Assess whether the student is ready to handle: The sequential motor planning required to type words and sentences fluently. Navigating typing software or classroom platforms independently. Sustaining attention for extended periods to complete assignments. For younger students or those with significant executive functioning challenges, typing may initially require more direct instruction and support to build proficiency. Practice Opportunities and Access Unlike handwriting, which is often taught and practiced consistently (🤞) in early education, typing instruction varies significantly across schools. Before transitioning, ensure the student has: Access to a device and appropriate typing programs, both at school and at home. Scheduled practice opportunities to build typing fluency, particularly if typing is not yet part of the regular curriculum. Before I recommend typing for a student, I always ask the teacher and parent(s) when the student can sit at a computer and practice daily. Weekly intervention alone will not help a student learn to type. They need to engage in daily practice. Ergonomic and Environmental Factors Typing requires proper (or at least decent) posture and positioning to avoid discomfort and support efficiency. Check whether the student has access to: A workstation that fits their physical needs, such as appropriately sized desks and chairs. A keyboard that supports their hand size and finger dexterity (e.g., full-size versus compact keyboards). For students with physical or environmental limitations, adaptations like height-adjustable desks, alternative keyboards, or speech-to-text software might be necessary. When and How to Transition to Typing If typing is identified as a more effective solution for a student’s written communication needs, a collaborative and structured transition plan is essential. Begin by working with the IEP team to review assessment results and establish clear goals , such as improving written output or reducing fatigue. Accommodations, such as extended time or assistive technology, should also be discussed. Involving the student in these discussions can build their confidence and engagement. A trial period is often helpful to determine the effectiveness of typing. During this time, the student can use typing for specific tasks while the team observes its impact on speed, legibility, and task efficiency. If typing proves to be beneficial, structured instruction becomes the next step . Typing programs like Typing.com , combined with regular practice, can help students develop fluency. Emphasizing proper ergonomics from the start can prevent inefficient habits. Typing doesn’t need to replace handwriting entirely. A gradual approach works best , starting with specific assignments where the student can succeed with their new tool. As proficiency improves, typing can become the student’s primary method of written communication. Like other IEP goals, progress should be monitored regularly, and goals should be adjusted as needed to ensure the student continues to benefit from the transition. When to Maintain Handwriting While typing can be a viable alternative to handwriting, it is not always the best solution. Likewise, there are situations where typing shouldn’t entirely replace handwriting. It's not uncommon that after assessing a student, your data points you toward focusing on handwriting over typing. The data could also lead you to consider Speech-to-text as an option. Whenever possible, students should still develop basic handwriting skills for tasks such as signing forms, taking quick notes, or filling out paperwork. Often, a student may be able to use handwriting effectively for short assignments while utilizing technology for longer writing activities. Final Thoughts We all know that typing can be a game-changer for the right students, but it’s not a universal solution. To best support each student, we must rely on individualized assessments and thoughtful decision-making. By evaluating handwriting and typing skills and providing appropriate support, we can empower students to communicate effectively and confidently. Resources for Further Reading: Typing.com : How Fast Can Kids Type? Qiat Resource Bank: Handwriting vs. Keyboarding Rates Typing.com : WPM Averages by Grade Level Activities to support typing skills

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 104 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. As OTPs in the schools, we all work with children with Sensory Processing Disorders. But our guest today has gone a step further in how she supports the families of neurodiverse children. Laura Petix, MS, OTR/L, dives into her passion for helping parents gain the tools they need to understand information and strategies to help their children. She has even used these tools in her personal life with her daughter Liliana. Tune in to learn the following objectives: Listeners will learn about multiple resources for children with SPD Listeners will learn what social stories are, and how they benefit many children with anxiety and SPD Listeners will learn about the “Just right Challenge” for common sensory triggers Guest Bio Laura Petix, MS, OTR/L, Laura is a pediatric Occupational Therapist in Southern California. She is a wife and mom to a neurodivergent 4-year-old with Sensory Processing Disorder and anxiety. Laura's passion is educating parents about how sensory processing directly impacts learning and behavior. She does this via her social media (@TheOTButterfly), podcast, blog, 1:1 parent consults, online courses, and programs for parents of kids with sensory challenges. Notable Quotes “I truly feel that if I won the lottery, I would still be doing this because it’s so meaningful to me, it's so impactful.” - Laura “My husband is always like, how does she go from zero to 100; And I'm like, she's not at zero. She's at like 75, like, constantly, you just don't see it.” - Laura “I teach parents how sensory processing impacts learning and behavior in their children. And I do that mostly through, one on one parent coaching, or my online Parent Program.” - Laura “I will always 110% advocate for you to have your child be seen in person; I can't see your child. This is all education-based.” - Laura “So I very quickly was starting to put together this Disneyland for parents of SPD kids. This resource where I was rating all of the rides on a scale of like one to five for vestibular sound, tactile, smell.” - Laura Resources 1:1 Parent Consultation with Laura OT Butterfly Website Sensory W.I.S.E. Solution Podcast OT Butterfly Instagram Social Story Creator App (IOS) Social Stories App (Android) The Whole-Brain Child Book By Dr. Siegel Mr. Chazz Leadership, Parenting and Teaching Podcast (IOS) Mr. Chazz Leadership, Parenting, and Teaching Podcast (Spotify) AT Parenting Survival Podcast -Natasha Daniels Good Inside Podcast- Dr. Becky Youtube- Art for Kids Hub Procreate Drawing App OT 4 Lyfe Podcast Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development, now to get the conversation started, here is your host. Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hey everyone. And welcome to Episode 104 of the OT school house podcast. My name is Jayson. I'm so happy to be here with you today. This episode is actually being released on July 5, which is one day after July 4, which, of course, is always a good time for everyone, at least I hope, and also two days after my birthday, which this year I got to celebrate at my cousin's wedding. So that's a lot of fun. Today is July 5. I'm actually probably going to be celebrating my birthday today. We'll see. And of course, my son is now three, three and a half months old, so we're just having a great start to the summer here at ot school house, myself, my wife, my baby, Kyler, and I hope you are as well, and maybe you're listening to this later. It's fall, winter, spring. Who knows? You know, I just want to say we have a great episode for you here today, and I really do hope you enjoy it today. We are bringing on Laura petix. She is the OT butterfly, and I could not have enjoyed the conversation you are about to hear more. We got into so much, just amazing stuff. She is not a school based OT, but she is a pediatric OT, and she is using everything that she learned through occupational therapy school, through her occupational therapy practice, helping kids with sensory processing disability. And she has taken that and she has started a business where she is now supporting, supporting parents, supporting kids through their parents all online, and she is just doing it in a very genuine, very occupational therapy way. And I could not not share this episode with you. She is just an amazing person. She's doing a lot for occupational therapy, and she's doing even more for the clients that she serves. So we're going to talk a little bit about how her Instagram has just blown up, and how she's just sharing occupational therapy with the world through her business, but we're going to really get down into the nitty gritty about how she is specifically supporting those clients that she works with also at the end, stay tuned, especially if you're a huge Disneyland fan, because we talk about how she's actually incorporating Disney into her business. Hint, it has to do with sensory processing disorder. So you're not going to want to miss that. You know, I'm not going to to waste any more of your time. I really want you to hear this interview, so please just put that phone away if you haven't already, and enjoy this episode with Laura pettits. I hope you enjoy it. Hey Laura, welcome to the OT school health podcast. How are you doing today?    Laura Petix     Hey, Jayson, it's good to see you. Finally, I'm doing well. Thank you for having me like thank you for inviting me.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, definitely it's, you know, it has been a true blessing, a true honor, just overall fun watching the OT butterfly grow on Instagram and now you have a podcast, and that's crazy. How are things going?    Laura Petix     Oh, everything is going well. And, yeah, this is, this is not where I intended the OT butterfly to go, but here I am, and that's how the best things turn out, right? But yeah, I it's really good to have such a direct impact with parents, so that's something that's very exciting for me every day, and I'm very grateful for all of the different dips and turns I've taken along my way to get here, because it all happens for a reason, right? So I'm happy to be here.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, and we're going to dive all into that, but first, you know what? I just want to give you a chance to share a little bit of background about maybe how you got to where you were just a few years ago as you started the OT butterfly in your ot career.    Laura Petix     Yeah, so I am a pediatric occupational therapist, and I have only ever worked in a clinic, in a private sensory integration clinic. That was where my second field work was, and that's where I was hired, in the Bay Area. And I stayed there up until right before the pandemic. And so I started the OT butterfly in, I think, February of 2019, when I was creating a lot of resources for my own clients at work, I just love creating very tailored, specific things for them, whether it was like a very specific pirate themed calendar for this child to get ready for school, or a Paw Patrol cutting activity to motivate one of my clients. And I was always creating this stuff. And then I stumbled upon teachers, P teachers, and I was like, I'm gonna put some stuff on there. And so one thing led to another, and I thought it was just gonna be this little cute side hobby that, once I got into it, I got very, very obsessed with making it like this fun thing. And it consumed so much time, and it was truly one. The only moments that I experienced flow of where I lost track of time, what I learned in grad school, and I was like, This is what it feels like. And it was just this perfect merge of hobby, but like productivity, which is definitely my like, type A, everything. And this was before did I have? Nope, nope. I already had my daughter at this time, but I was in this perfect lull where I had just enough time to be bored after after work and after momming hours where I was like, What do I do with this free time? And I spent all that time on there. And turns out, when you make a TPT store, you also have to, you know, support it with a Pinterest account and a blog and Instagram to showcase all of that. So I was like, Oh, I guess I'll start an Instagram. I really don't want to, but they're not going to know about my teachers paid teacher store. So I'll just, I'll just do that, but, like, not spend too much time on to it. And yeah, so I spent the first, like, year and a half focusing on my resources catered to other occupational therapists, mostly PDFs, downloads, teachers, pay teachers, stuff and then perfect storm of events. My husband got a new job, so we had to leave the Bay Area, like the week before the world shut down. So I had this like time to, like, be out of the clinic. I was like, in between jobs, because I didn't know what I was which clinic where I was going to work. And then it all just fell into place as more and more parents started finding me on Instagram and asking, what is going on with my child? Because these were things they weren't seeing because their kids were at school all day, or they never really had to fill so much of their time supporting their child through virtual school with all of the sensory stuff that they're like. What do I do? And so very much, took a very quick turn, like in summer of 2020, when I started to focus talking to parents more. And that's where I have found my calling. I found my people. I truly feel like, if I won the lottery today, I would still be doing this, because it's so meaningful to me and so impactful.    Jayson Davies     That's great. That is great. You know, I'd like a visual therapist. You know, we naturally, I think, have that desire to help as many people as we can. And whether you're working in a school, in a clinic, in a hospital, whatever setting that is, you're physically there, and your time is taken every time you are seeing a person and being online. I know you do work with people one on one, but anytime you post something on Instagram, it's one to so many. And I know this isn't a business podcast, but it's so exciting to see your Instagram just blow up. I mean, I remember when you just had a, you know, a few 100, then a few 1000, and now 6575.    Laura Petix     I reached out to in the beginning, because you were already well established at that point. So, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, it's    Jayson Davies     pretty crazy. So alright, so you started off in a pediatric clinic, and then you decided to start a TPT store, and went from there, I got to ask, why the OT butterfly? How did that come to be?    Laura Petix     Yeah, so I remember trying to think of a name for my store, and I was thinking of, like, pretty, like, ot puns that I was trying to go for, and it just didn't, like, stick. And I, like, almost kept forgetting my names. Like, I think if anyone has some of my first free downloads that they got, like, the first week they're gonna have like, three different, like, copyright names at the bottom, because I, like, came up with a bunch of random, like, hands on stuff, like very pun ot stuff. And I was like, I can't even remember what the name is at that time to, like, get people to download. I was like, this isn't gonna work. And then it just came to me one day. So butterflies are a pretty significant symbol in my family, and from talking to a lot of a lot of other people, this is very common for a lot of cultures and a lot of families. But in my family, I'm Filipino. In my family, my mom, we grew up always seeing butterflies as like people who have passed away, like relatives. So whenever you would see a butterfly, my mom be like, oh, there's your uncle so and so, like, watching over you. Like, we have a lot of, actually, family stories of, like, near death experiences, but then, like, a butterfly is somehow, like, in the environment, or like, lands on that person, and like, they almost drowned and they didn't like, it's crazy stories. But so butterflies have been symbolic in that perspective. But then my grandma loved butterflies, like wallpaper butterflies, bed sheets butterflies. She had a restaurant called the butterfly cafe. She had iced tea, called butterfly iced tea, like she was Miss butterfly. I drew butterflies for her all growing up so and the like, a few months before I started my TPT store, she passed away, so she was very like in the front of my mind. And so it just all made sense. And then even after the fact, I was like, this is actually a really good metaphor for our clients and for the families we work with, as the they transform into, like independent butterflies, and they fly off. And I was like, this just fits all around. And now it's, I love it.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. And actually, you have your. Own little butterfly at home, your daughter. You know, this is a great little segue. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your daughter, and also how she has actually played a little bit of a role within the OT butterfly.    Laura Petix     Yeah, oh my gosh. Liliana, so she is my one and only. She is almost five now, and she, from the beginning, was not meant to be part of this whole thing, but she really is now, like no one can see this, but she is like the face of the OT butterfly. I have pictures of her all over the place because she's a very clear representation of the kinds of kids I am trying to help and to serve and support. So she is, she's almost five. Like I said, she is neuro divergent. She has anxiety and sensory processing disorder, so she needs a lot of support for emotional regulation and just getting through a lot of stuff in her day. But from when I first started my Instagram, and I was still focusing on TPT stuff, I felt so awkward on stories, on Instagram stories, and I'm like, I don't know how to talk to people, and so I would like have her next to me as my little sidekick, and it kind of like broke the eyes and people, I got way more views. People were asking questions about her, like they loved her little voice. So I was like, You are my secret weapon. And that was before I really, totally knew she was neurodivergent. I didn't start seeing signs for her until she was around. Like, I mean, I'd say I always did, but it didn't start falling into place until she was like 1314, months. So as my journey with her started unfolding, I shared a lot of that with my audience, and that really built a close connection with everyone. So right now, where it stands, we are going through our second round of like evaluations. The first time we tried to go this route was like when she was two, and then all of everything happened with pandemic, and we've kind of been getting by, and, you know, I've been using all my ot tools as much as I can, but now, as she approaches kindergarten, it's clear that she still needs more support, and I'm hoping to get that so we are going through evaluations, through our Insurance and through the school. So I very much understand what parents are going through, because it has not been an easy route, even for someone like myself, who is so well connected and understands the whole process. So yeah.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. I mean myself as a school based OT, you know, I have a I have a three month old, or just about three month old now, and I have, kind of, I've said this to people that I've worked with, to people that are very close to me, and it's one of those things where you almost don't want to say it out loud, but, like, I have kind of said, you know, I will have totally no problem at all if I have a student with special needs, but, man, I feel bad for the school district if I have a student with special needs, because I know everything.    Laura Petix     Yeah, like, you do not want me as a client. No, I try, yeah. I try to, like, always be in both sides, right? And be like, I'm very empathetic of the task that you guys have to go through to qualify students. But also, like, let's skip all of that stuff, because I know we really know why I'm here. Like, I wouldn't be bringing my daughter to these appointments and doing this just for fun, right? Like, I know she needs XYZ, so, yeah, hopefully you don't have to deal with this fight. You don't have to fight this fight for your son, but He, you would be the best advocate for him that comes.     Jayson Davies     Thanks. Yeah, well, are there any specific stories going on, right or any specific situations that you wouldn't mind sharing right now?     Laura Petix     Yeah, oh, gosh. Okay, so, so well, the most recent is, like, just a couple hours ago, I just got off the phone with her principal. She's starting a year round school, so I don't know when this is going to come out, but she is starting school on july 14, and she is just in pre K right now going, she's in a private pre K, and she's going to a public our local public school. And based on her needs, her anxiety is what really drives the sensory so she is a people pleasing, super charismatic, super funny, like, not super shy. She will like talk to anybody, but when she is anxious about things that are unknown to her or things that are unexpected, it comes out as a lot of well, first of all, her sensory stuff gets, like, heightened in that moment, and she has really big emotional dysregulation stuff. So my husband is always like, how does she go from zero to 100 and I'm like, she's not at zero, she's at like, 75 like, constantly, you just don't see it, right? That's how I explain it to him and other parents. I'm like, they're never just at this regulated. She's just got this internal state of arousal that's always kind of up and ready to just go into fight or flight mode at any moment. And so I am trying to take off as much of that cognitive load for her before school starts by answering these unknown because she's like, what's my teacher's name? What does she look like? What's my classroom going to look like? All of the curious things that a lot of kids ask. But for her, these unknowns can really be deep seated and have her perseverate on these things. So much that she can't really focus on anything else that almost five year old should focus on, and then we have really big meltdowns at home. So my point of talking to her principal was I was asking him for a certain set of accommodations before school starts. I was asking if we could find out who her teacher is before and she is at her school. There is four kindergarten classes, there's 2am and then, like, 2pm classes. So I'm like, I need to know which time her class starts, who her teacher is going to be. I need a picture of her teacher because I'm going to create a social story, and I needed time to walk through the classroom before school starts, so she can, like, have that body movement of walking through and visualizing what it's going to be like. Because I 100% I'm that person. I have anxiety as well. I'm the person who looks up like the directions in Google Maps, but like the street view of like where I'm going, and I look up what parking lots look like before I go somewhere, because I have this like anxiety. And then when I'm driving, I can't focus like it is very real. So I think I am even better advocate for my daughter, because I have anxiety as well. So so that conversation was just asking for those and then I shared with him that we are currently going through evaluation process with our insurance trying to get her seen by a developmental pediatrician, fighting so hard for OT and also getting evaluated for play therapy. And so he actually very much surprised me. Maybe I'm just jaded from hearing all of the horror stories, but he surprised me in being proactive about setting her up for a 504 plan. Like, I was very much approaching this as, like, I'm asking for these accommodations, quote off the record to meet her teacher. If you can't meet that for me, I'm I will go the 504 plan route, the more legal route, the more red tape route, which I know as a school. Like, it's not a way, like, you don't. You'd rather avoid that if you can. Right? So I was ready to, like, use that as my leverage, but he was more that. He was like, yep, we can do that for you. And you know, since you're going, you already have these evaluations in place, why don't you bring that when you walk your daughter through the school? And we'll add that, and we'll get the process started for a 504 plan, so you can just be ready if you need it. And I'm like, that's amazing. So I was not even expecting that, and I'm very happy to hear that.     Jayson Davies     That's awesome. No, that's great. You know, I agree with you to the extent, you know, the red tape, trying to avoid it and do things a little bit hush hush on the backside, without doing the 504 but at the same time, I completely would advocate for like he is doing, for that 504 because if you don't put that 504 in place at the beginning, then the next time you as the mom comes in and you might ask for something else, and then you come in and maybe you ask for something else, and it's nothing that you shouldn't ask for. You absolutely should. But if that 504 isn't already put in place, then it just looks like someone's just asking for more and more. But once you put that 504 in place. Now it's on paper. It's documented, it's official. And if they need more, if she does one day anymore, it's already it's already there and documented. So I think that's a great, awesome.    Laura Petix     Yeah, so I was very pleasantly surprised with that, so that I feel like is a gift from the universe, because I have been fighting so hard with our insurance to get her the medical route type of OT right, because she definitely does need some outpatient sensory integration type work to help with her regulation. And yes, I am very qualified to do this, but I don't think unless, unless you're a parent out there, you don't understand that dynamic of like mom to child is not the same as therapist to child, and I have all of my tools in place at home, but I need more, and I cannot be her therapist too. So that's what I've been fighting for.    Jayson Davies     definitely, yeah, and you know, I've been watching some of those. So anyone who's listening go over to the OT butterfly on Instagram, and Laura puts all of her stories into those nice, little neat, whatever highlights    Laura Petix     So, go to the highlight called eval, and you'll hear, you'll see all the all of the mess that I get to deal with. But yeah.     Jayson Davies     Yeah. all right, so I want to move on. But you actually mentioned something, and hopefully this will probably be a pretty quick answer. You mentioned creating social stories for for Liliana, do you use a specific tool for that?    Laura Petix     Yeah, I use the social story creator library on iPhone. I don't know if they have it on Android. I keep saying that, and no one has ever responded, because I feel like most of the people I talk to have iPhones, but it has a like a person holding a pink book. And I love this tool, if I don't use this well, she was little. She used to like, like flipping through pages. So I've done like, cut and paste, laminate type social stories, right? But she's very much into, like, hearing herself talk and seeing her. So if I don't create, like, an actual social story in this app, and I'll talk about what I love about it, I will record a video of her talking to herself in the future, which has been so helpful, because she loves that. So she'll say like, wellyana, tomorrow when you wake up, remember, it's pack up day at school, and you're usually nervous. Remember mom said you can take a deep breath, so like, she's just talking to herself. And then in the morning, I'm like, Hey, someone has a message for you, and I'll, like, play that video of her. I use that for, like, all transitions, everything, when it when it's like, a very predictable meltdown, there's like, a 90% chance of meltdown. I'm like, Wait, let's record you. But so the social story creator library, you can take pictures, which I love, for all social stories, I much prefer, like the actual photo of the child, of the environment, of everything. You can take photos, and then you can type in the words, but then you can record your voice, or the child's voice saying the phrase, or whatever that is, and then they can watch the social story like unfold. So it's like a digital version, and you can take this like anywhere. So I love that too. That's what we use at home.    Jayson Davies     That's great. Yeah, as you were talking, I was gonna ask about potentially using, like, YouTube social story type of things. But even better, if she's creating her own social story for herself to watch.    Laura Petix     You know, I try. I spent so many hours trying to find like, specific scenario YouTubes for my own clients. And I'm just like, if you can just go and, like, take pictures yourself, of your child and at the dentist, like, this is gonna be way more effective and relevant for your child. So I started doing that. And yeah, it works like a charm for my daughter.    Jayson Davies     That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, anytime you can make it more custom, more personalized to your environment, to your person, I'm just thinking of the PEO model, right person, environment, occupation, if you can wrap those up and make it as customized to the client or your child as possible.    Laura Petix     Oh my gosh, I haven't heard that in years. I you're triggering some PTSD from, like, five cards studying that I have not even uttered those words in so long. But yes, you're right.     Jayson Davies     Yeah. PE Oh, my, well, that's the one that always comes back to me. I couldn't tell you a thing about Moho. That's like, the one that always.    Laura Petix     You know what I used a lot, but what stuck with me, and I used a lot in my when I was in mental health, for like, my, was it, I think was my first field work. I use the Kawa model a lot. I heard you, and I use that a lot with kids, yes, yeah, and that one stuck with me a lot. And I've, like, tailored that a lot for some of my older kids working with, like, emotional regulation and worries and stuff. We've used the Kawa model for like, some of my, like, fifth and sixth grade one. So that one stuck with me, but the other those are more like the PEO and like all that stuff like is very blurry to me, so don't test me on that.    Jayson Davies     Understandable. We all, you know, we come out of university, out of school, and it's not meant to we're not meant to retain everything. We're meant to retain the things that we know that we can go back to and learn more about if we need to. So yeah.    Laura Petix     I honestly learned like 95% of what I know from, like my field work too, like my mentors were everything, and so yeah, that made a huge difference for me. Different.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that's awesome, man. I keep going back and forth. I want to move on to the next question, but then you say something. I'm like, I want to know more about that. But yeah, you know what? We'll keep going. So we talked a little bit about at the beginning, and then we started talking a little bit about, more about more about your family and Liliana, but let's go back. How do you explain what you're doing as a business right now? If you had to, kind of, you know that elevator pitch a little bit, what are you doing?    Laura Petix     Yeah. So I teach parents how sensory processing impacts learning and behavior in their children, and I do that mostly through one on one parent coaching or my online Parent Program. And just recently, I'd say, in the past three months to six months, I've even more niche down and like solidified my expertise in the space of I call it like gentle parenting with a neuro divergent twist, because everybody online right now, gentle parenting is such a buzz word, it's often misused. It's often like misunderstood, but I've found a way to translate that where it applies to neuro divergent parents, and most of the parents I work with are parents of sensory sensitive children. So if we're talking about SPD and all of the different profiles, sensory sensitivity is the one that hits closest to home. It's the one I have the most experience working with in my practice and at home. So I spend most of my time talking to those parents. But in general, I love teaching parents about how sensory processing impacts their child's behavior and learning.    Jayson Davies     Awesome. That's well, I just know that you're helping many, many people because of your Instagram following. But let's dive deeper, more into actually your I guess the clientele you're actually working with not those the ones that. Following you on Instagram. You said you do that in two different ways. You have one to one mentoring, and then you also have a program. Let's start with the program, and then we'll get more into the one to one. What does that program look like?    Laura Petix     Yeah. So I have a parenting program that is. It's a course and a program kind of mixed in one. So it's this course with lessons and modules teaching them the why behind sensory their child's behaviors? Why behind the behaviors? It teaches them how to identify their child's specific triggers and like goals based on where their current like baseline level is. I teach them how to set long term goals, short term goals. And then, like, identify their baseline level. And then I teach them about sensory strategies daily at home, just to get them as regulated as possible. Before school, you know, to try to avoid as many meltdowns as possible, how to come out of a meltdown with sensory strategies. And then I teach them how to engage in the just right challenge, and I use a ladder to depict the just right challenge, and I teach parents how to create their own just right challenge ladder for the most common sensory sensitive triggers. So I talk about sensitivity to clothing, sensitive to loud sounds or busy environments, sensitivity to grooming activities, which includes like hair cutting, hair brushing, hair washing, tooth brushing, nail cutting, and also picky eating. And so those four pillars spell out W, I, S, E, so that's where I get the wise and sensory wise solutions, which is the name of my podcast and the program. And so I send parents weekly emails for 16 weeks to get them to keep up with the lessons and watch it weekly. And then they also get a private community full of other parents of sensory sensitive children. So it's it's off of Facebook, but it's the same idea where there's like a forum and you can ask questions, share, wins, all of that. And then we also have five group coaching calls throughout that 16 weeks. So I go heavy on the the Course Program, the videos, the lessons for 10 weeks. But then for six weeks after that, I specifically leave time for group coaching, for questions. Because the one thing I have a gripe about for a lot of like take and go courses is like you either like binge the content and then like you don't remember it. Because I do that all the time. I get so excited to learn something, and then I'm like, wait, where was that lesson on blah, blah, blah? Either binge it, two, you forget about it, or three, you take it. But then after you have all these questions for the Creator, like for it to fit your child, and if it's a take and go course that creator doesn't really have the obligation to, like, spend time answering your questions and helping you through it. So I build in like, six weeks of like, troubleshooting as they learned how to use the just right challenge, and I could give them examples like, oh, that didn't work for your child. Maybe that wasn't the just right challenge. Let's talk about it. So it's really a course and program built into one, but now I'm on like, the fourth cohort of it, and it's been so successful, and parents feel so empowered, and it's just it's really transformed how I work with my in person clients as an OT really, really trying to pull the parents on board, because like seeing how much progress parents can make at home without OT. Now, if you have ot in person and you can do this like, it's like a huge, huge thing unlocked. So that's my one main Parent Program. It's like course with the program mixed together.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, you know, I don't do cohort based for my courses. They are self paced, but I do give people a few things to add on. I make sure that a they have lifetime access, so that way they can go back in and access it whenever they need to. But we also do live collaboration hours, so every other week, I hop on and just do live Q and A with anyone, and so I absolutely agree, right? You need to have that application side of it. You can't just, especially in science fields, right? You just can't take something and walk away.    Laura Petix     Yeah, there's so many parenting courses, like bedtime stuff, meltdown stuff, that's just like a take and go, yeah. So I really because, like, sensory is so, I mean, every child is different, period, but when we're talking about sensory stuff, it really does take some practice and and troubleshooting. And, yeah, they get access to the course for a lifetime, I just paced them through, and then the community is only for six, yeah.    Jayson Davies     Perfect that's really cool. Okay, as OTs, I like to think we are some of the most ethical people in the world, and sometimes it almost doesn't backfire on this, but, like, it makes running a business, in my opinion, a little tricky, because you almost want to give everything away for free, because, you know, these people who have a child with SPD, they need so much support, but at the same time, we have to keep in mind our license and all that. And when it comes to sensory, you kind of mentioned, you know, sensory is very unique to an individual, obviously. So I know this is helpful. You You just mentioned you're helping hundreds 1000s of. Parents, how do you grapple with that whole here is a course, and you know, it's a video. It's recorded. It's not specific to your child, but at the same time I'm here, I'm giving you this course, and I want to help you. How does that work out for you?    Laura Petix     Yeah, so my number one huge value to me through everything I do as a business owner, is always being transparent, almost to the point where some, like my business coach sometimes is joking. She goes, like, Are you even trying to sell this? Course? Are you trying to, like, not sell it because you have so many disclaimers. Of like, this isn't for you. This isn't for you. But I'm very, very transparent. Of like, this is not occupational therapy, like in my frequently asked questions. It's like, will my child still need ot outside of this, I can't tell you, I will always 110% advocate for you to have your child be seen in person. I can't see your child. This is all education based. What I do is how I explain it is I'm giving the parents kind of like, like, if I were to take off my ot glasses and like, lend it to them. Like, here's what I see. You put this on and tell me what you see, and you can explain it to me. And I'll give you three different examples of why that thing could be happening. Which one sounds like it applies to your child? And they're like, Oh, it sounds like this. So we'll talk about it. But I always, I mean, I have a bunch of things reminding them that this is really just giving them the tools to understand their child's behavior more, or at least know what to question about their child's behavior, just really giving them the framework to look through. Versus like, that's why I don't have a lot of strategy based courses. I don't have like, here's how to do here's what to do for sensory seekers. Like, I really don't I if I'm doing that, I do a lot of parent one on one, parent coaching, and I'm also very specific, like, I am not seeing your child. I am not assessing your child based on what you're telling me. Here are two or three or four different things that could work for a general sensory seeker. You decide what works best for your kid. So I'm, like, overly communicative in that way, so that I know by the time a parent puts in their paypal or, like, sends that, like, you know, purchases something, they've gone through like, three or four disclaimers. Like, this is not going to do, like, X, Y and Z. So that's why my my business coach, is always like, Oh, you're, are you really trying to sell this? Yes, I just, I can't take that. Like, scam will fix your kid, or, like, no meltdowns in like, 10 days. Like, I hate all of that stuff. I just really want my what I'm selling and what I can what I can guarantee a parent will walk away with after consult call, after my program, after everything is you will know more after this about your child than you did before. Gary like, and I can very confidently say that without feeling like I would let someone down, like, I promise you, I will teach you something that you did not already know about sensory and how that applies to your child, and you'll walk away with at least one, if not like, a handful of things that you can either look more into yourself like you'll actually have the name for what to look for, right? And that goes a long way, or some things for you to experiment and try, knowing that some of these things might not fully work for your child.     Jayson Davies     That's fantastic. That's great. I think as OTs, you know, we get caught up and we have an OT degree, and that means that we need to have a traditional ot job. We need to see a client one on one or in a small group. And I just love that you are you're taking your knowledge from OT and you're applying it to help parents in a very different way, but a way that is just as if not more impactful for them. So that's awesome.    Laura Petix     Thank you.    Jayson Davies     So that was the program, the group program. Now, individually, do you see kids in person in your area? You're in Orange County area right now, Southern California.    Laura Petix     I am. I'm in or I'm in Irvine.    Jayson Davies     Okay, that's what I thought. I thought you were always there. But you mentioned earlier you're up in the bay area.    Laura Petix     So I yeah, I grew up here in Orange County, moved to the Bay and then we're I'm back. You had to come back. No, I had to come back. Disneyland was calling me to stay with an earshot of that.    Jayson Davies     So I'm the same way. So how are you working with clients? One on one? Are you working directly with children? Are you working with the parents, kind of in the same way you're doing the group, but one to one. Or what does that look like?    Laura Petix     Yeah, so I am part time at a clinic. It's not my practice. It is. I'm an employee, a part time employee at a clinic. I have a very small caseload, just to keep my ot skills sharp, and I like to be in there, actually working with kids. So I have a very small caseload, like one day a week, in person, and then I have for the OT butterfly, I have one on one parent coaching style sessions, so it's either like Q and A anything you would ask into Google. I will help you understand that. I help them with the language to advocate for their child, with the school with insurance, with finding a clinic with family members. And I help them understand a very like nuanced behavior and peel apart the layers and explain all the different things behind it. And I also have been getting more clients recently who just from a general perspective of, like, how to support their kid at home, how to handle like, certain sensory based behaviors, from a discipline perspective from, like, a parenting perspective, from a parenting style perspective, which I've been really enjoying doing lately.    Jayson Davies     That's awesome. So are most of your clients within the group? Or how much time do you get to spend with your one to one clients?    Laura Petix     Yeah, so no, so people. So I have a couple clients who are doing one on one and the program, and they like, really like having that to refer to as, like a resource that's always there. But then they really like the hand holding, like one on one time with me. But mostly I have my one on one clients are typically ones who don't fall into the sensory sensitive perspective, because I have other courses for that, right, or have other programs. So the sensory wise solutions is for parents of sensory sensitive kids. I have some parents of sensory sensitive kids in my one on one, but usually they end up in this program. So my consults are usually parents of just kids with anxiety, kids who they haven't figured out quite yet. Kids are having a hard time at school, kids who are sensory seekers, and so I guess, how much time do I have for one on one calls? I have an open caseload right now. I don't have too many on my caseload because it's usually like, either a one off, like, Q, a, like, Oh, I get a lot of the like, do I even need? OT, let me just like, consult with you and talk about things, and I'll say, like, yeah, highly recommend, like, going and here's how you could find that. I have a lot of parents who are like, can I we talk about, like, my child is having a hard time at school or sibling stuff? And then they'll book like, three calls, and we'll, we'll tackle at it from like, a package perspective. I don't have a lot of like, ongoing, like, monthly, gotcha one on one console. It's very much a here's the information. Go with it. I'm here if you have more questions. But the most I will work with the family is like, three to five sessions to, like, tackle a very specific thing. And aside from that, I have, like, some like, I have a one of my very, very niche, niche, niche, niche, niche areas is for clothing sensitivities. So I have a home program called from stressed to dressed. It's in, like, a PDF ebook, and it's basically the quote curriculum that I used in the clinic to help kids with clothing sensitivities that I used to like hand write and cut out little things for them that I turned into a program once I left the clinic. So that is one resource that I send a lot out to parents and OTs who want to use it. Like I became the clothing girl at my clinic. Like, every time we had a clothing client, the clinic director would be like, Oh, she needs to work with Laura. Because, like, I just had all of these little ways to motivate them. So.    Jayson Davies     that's awesome. That's great. That's cool to see that you're able to help so many people in so many different areas in different ways too. You have the group, you have the book, you got everything. Yeah, that's cool. Now, one thing that I definitely want to ask you about, because, as we both mentioned, we're big Disney fans. I haven't had a pass since the whole changed up, the whole structure and whatnot, and whatnot and but I did see a few things come from you that you're actually supporting children with sensory processing disorders and their ability to go to Disneyland. Obviously, this is very niche. This is a very Southern California or maybe Florida. But I think you also started this right before the pandemic. So it may or may not be going because of the pandemic, but what is this?    Laura Petix     Yeah, so I actually started it in the pandemic. I started it when I got my pass. So I got the new magic key pass, like the week that it came out, like in August. And as I started going more, I was like, because I haven't, I haven't gone back since being well, I have, like, a couple times, but not since I've been, like, started this, since I started the OT butterfly, I had not been back. So now that I'm, like, always thinking of, like, accommodating and supporting parents, I'm like, Disneyland is just so over stimulating, which I knew, and I will go on a ride. And I'm like, they didn't like that, like, who can go on that ride with the sensory sensitivity? And like, why didn't they tell me that? And like, the fantasy land rides are, like, the only ones that little kids can go on, but they are the most, like, the darkest, the loudest. Like, oh, terrifying. And like, we went on, like, Cars Land and that Radiator Springs, and I forgot that. Like, that spray that when you're in the paint shop and you spray, I'm like, I know, like, five clients who would have fully freaked out with that, like, it's a minute millisecond of the thing. But like, what you don't realize is that when your kid walks off of that, or like has, or like has this tiny little experience that you didn't expect it, like, the rest of the day can go downhill if you don't know that and know what to avoid. And. The app doesn't tell you, like, you might get sprayed by mist, because they don't consider that, because it's a tiny little part, right? And what I was realizing with my daughter was that like, getting her on the ride, like I needed, like, from a it's like energy conservation, but it's like sensory trigger conservation, like getting, like, trying to limit what goes into her sensory threshold is like, I need to let her experience the ride for all of the like sensory, like triggers that it has so every time, like between rides, whether it's on the line or like walking out of that like she needs to be as accommodated and supported as possible. And I also need to, again, take that cognitive load out from her and show her videos of these rides. Know what the line is gonna be, like, all of that stuff, so she doesn't have this, like, built up anxiety before even stepping foot on this ride. So I would go to Disney on and, like, take videos for her, and then come home and show them to her. Then take her because it was YouTube videos, but they weren't, like, accurate. They weren't portraying the line, like, Those videos are, like, more specific to the attraction, and they like mute out the sounds of like, when you're waiting in line, or there's like music going over it. So I wanted, I just took very raw videos of our experience, and then I was like, this needs to be a resource. This needs to be something for parents. So I very quickly was starting to put together this Disneyland for parents of SPD kids, this resource where I was rating all of the rides on a scale of, like one to five for vestibular sound, tactile smell. And I think I'm wondering if there's something else that I was missing, but I rated all of it on like, a scale of one to five how intense something is. Yeah, I also detailed, like, it's a lap belt versus a shoulder belt, or there's no belt, or all of the things that you don't think about, like the exit upon exiting, there's a really bright red flashing light outside of Soren. And I'm like, I know, visually sensitive children. Oh, that's the other thing I write. I rate darkness.    Jayson Davies     Oh yeah.    Laura Petix     I rate the darkness on on a lot of rides, like how dark it is and how and then how loud it is. And also, what kind of vestibular input is it like? The Winnie the Pooh ride has some it's like this awkward in between linear, but there's like, half rotary as you're, like, sort of spinning halfway, a little bit, and you're rocking back and forth the Haunted Mansion when you have that inversion, like, kind of, like, tip back, oh, yeah, really hard for gravitationally insecure kids going backwards too. Yeah. Like, the it doesn't, it doesn't, they don't talk about those things. And again, I've seen, and I've heard from many client, many people who have DMed me after where they're like, I'm scared to go back, because the first ride I went on, I was not expecting that, and the rest of the day was like an sh i t show because they were just dysregulated for the rest of the day. So I was working really hard on packaging that together. I'd say it's like 70% done. It stopped. I couldn't go as often because of all of the pandemic stuff, like keeping my daughter safe became a bigger priority, and now my now, my PASS is going to expire in August, and I heard that they might not offer it again, so that, yeah, I've heard that they might not offer it again, and that's making me so sad. So I have this, like, half finished resource I did like a I might do this again, because I've heard I've had a lot of parents ask I might do like, pop up zoom calls for people who are going soon, where I could just answer all the questions. But I use the DAS disability pass for my daughter, and that's been our saving grace that I encourage a lot of parents to use as well, and it's the only way that I can take my daughter, daughter there now.    Jayson Davies     I have a quick question. You You mentioned an app and that the app has some information. Does it tell you any helpful information at this point?    Laura Petix     It will say, like, dark thrill rides or like? It will say, like, some drops. It won't say like, tips back. It won't say there's, like, that, it'll say you can get wet on, like, some rides that, like, actually have a splash component. But like, it did not say that for Radiator Springs, because they don't think of that mist as, like, getting wet, right? Yeah. And then the other piece about it is, like, the Winnie the Pooh ride, which is very relevant for, you know, autistic clients. There's like, a scene at the end with the birthday party, and there's a thunderstorm simulation. That's right, the app doesn't say that. It just says, like, dark and scary, but like, if you're like, oh, but my kid loves Winnie the Pooh, it's not going to be that scary. But if that's one of your kids triggers, that's a scary thing. Plus there's all those weird, like, clown things in Winnie the Pooh, it's just like, it's a whole, it's a whole trip in that right? But they don't, they don't talk about that in the app, either. So the app gives very minimal stuff. The one cheat that I say parents look for is look for the rides that are safe for pregnant women, because they have that you can filter out on the app if you're pregnant or expecting, those usually are the least vestibular intense rides. Rides, yeah, if you're looking for vestibular input, that's the only cheat I found. But everything else, they just kind of group into, like, loud, scary thrill rides. And then there's some rides that they don't even mention that are scary, that actually can be based on your child's triggers. And as a parent, I would like to know that there is a birthday party scene in the windy the poo ride or something, right?    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and at Disneyland, it's more than just the rides, too. I mean, all the fireworks, Fantasmic. I mean, there's so many different things going on that have so many different experiences.     Laura Petix     You can try to, like, I can understand, if you're like, my kid is sound sensitive. We're not doing fireworks at all.     Jayson Davies     Sure, that's a pretty easy one, but some of the other ones.    Laura Petix     You want to avoid. But there's other things you can't avoid, those freaking bathrooms are like an issue, right? So having all of the tricks of like, where the bathrooms haven't have not an automatic toilet flusher, or walking them through what a character experience is going to be like, which I liked their COVID precautions for their characters, it was much more sensory friendly for kids because they were all behind a rope, like you didn't have to worry about, like, getting up close to them, but now they're back to normal. So yeah, there's all of those, like, in between, stuff that we forget about or that we take for granted when we have neurotypical kids and we don't remember how hard, how much of that, just outside the ride stuff can contribute to our overload for our sensory kids.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely Wow. So we're gonna have to, well, first of all, if you're a Disney fan, you've loved the last 12 minutes. If you're not a Disney fan, hopefully you're still on. We're gonna, we're gonna continue back to working with non Disney people right now, but we're gonna have to cut out the last, you know, 1215, minutes and just send that to Disney so that we can see Laura on one of those Imagineer episodes that they got going on right now.    Laura Petix     That would be amazing.    Jayson Davies     right? Oh, man. All right, so I want to ask you four quick response questions. I didn't send these to you in advance, but they're really simple, I promise. Okay, one book every ot should read.    Laura Petix     One book every ot the whole brain child.     Jayson Davies     All right, a YouTube channel that you appreciate because of they facilitate for sensory processing disorder, kids with sensory.    Laura Petix     Oh, gosh. I haven't been on YouTube in so long, but the one YouTube channel I always go to for my clients is the art for kids hub, just for, like, practicing drawing, but, like, I haven't used, I haven't used YouTube for sensory stuff in so long.     Jayson Davies     You're, well, you're creating your own That's why, I mean, you just got all the videos for your own kid. All right, I agree. I use that one all the time. I think it's a great praxis, um, activity, yeah. All right, so we did book YouTube podcast, same genre, but podcast, podcast, of course, your own. But what else?    Laura Petix     Well, oh yeah, I've been really liking so there's two, and this is all for parent. This is for parents. But OTs like to learn about what parents are learning about. So Natasha Daniels, she has at parenting survival. She focuses on anxiety, OCD and sensory processing overlap, which is very helpful for me. It's very she has her own kids experiencing that stuff, and she coaches parents as well. And Dr Becky, good inside. I can't go wrong with her. I love her approach to parenting and and teaching stuff. And sorry I can't pick one. Mr. Chaz. Mr. Chaz is leading. I think I forget what his podcast is called. Mr. Chazz is teaching and leadership podcast. I think he is a really, really good breath of fresh air, Teacher of teachers, but he uses Conscious Discipline, and he's a cycle breaker, and he makes you, like, think about really hard questions about your childhood and how it impacts the way that you are working and raising your own kids. And those, those three, as a parent, I feel like I've won the lottery with that's great. So with free support, while hearing that all of those things, if you have a neuro divergent kid or work with them, those are great outside. I love, I love, I don't listen to OT podcast as much anymore, because what I found that has better me as like as a business woman and as a parent and as an OT is by learning from other professions. I think I got so tunnel vision to a lot of OT podcast, which I love too, especially at the beginning, but now, as a parent hearing other approaches, it's so helpful.    Jayson Davies     Gosh, stop sending my my listeners away.    Laura Petix     Click, click. Out of both.    Jayson Davies     We got a little bit of both. We got a parent and an OT on here right now. So that's cool. All right. One more. This one is a little more direct and relatable to you. I want to ask the significance behind the lovely art that you have everywhere, because it's pictures, it's pictures of Liliana, but it's a very much different representation. So share a little bit about that.    Laura Petix     Yeah. So I shared this earlier when I when I first started TPT. I. Like I'm bored, like I need something to do. And I got really, like, obsessed with it. So also, when I get really engrossed in my work, I have a hard time like doing any self care or like practice tasks, or practice self care tasks, or like, just relaxing non work tasks. And last summer, I just was working so much, but I was like, I need something else, but my hands really wanted to be busy. I kept trying to watch my favorite shows and do all the things, but I was still pulling my iPad and my computer out to like, work. I just could not stop. So I got this iPad and this procreate app where you could draw, and I just really love, like, drawing and doodling and stuff like that. And I found a way I learned how to create like these faceless portraits, which is, I think, like a newish style I've seen out there of other people. So I started doing that with my daughter's stuff. And I liked that. It kind of branded my Instagram, without always me putting like the OT butterfly on it. But I also really loved the faceless portraits because it because it kind of feels like less identifiable, and you could almost see like, like. You could relate like that could be my child, right? But so every time I am feeling like this creative urge, but I'm trying to like separate myself from work, I'm trying to relax. I will pull out my iPad and draw and do more pictures of her, and I just keep adding that to my content. And it like, kind of it checks off my productivity tab and self care at the same time. That's great tasking. I hope my therapist isn't listening, because she's always trying to tell me to like separate it. But I just I feel so much more fulfilled when some of my self care can also go back to my work, so a little bit of both. So when you see me, have a bunch of new Instagram story templates and like pictures of her. You know, I've been on this, like quote, trying to do the self care.    Jayson Davies     Right? That's funny. I'm the same way with Canva. Canva is like, I'm doing work, but I'm not really doing work.    Laura Petix     Right? Like, sometimes I'll, like, have a really good show. And my husband, I have these like background shows where it's like, you don't have to pay attention, but you love having it. So we have our set of background shows, and I'm like, pull them out. I'm like, am I gonna draw tonight, or am I gonna go on Canva and, like, mess with, like, a new template, or my website design where it's still work, but it like feels creative and fun.    Jayson Davies     Exactly. Yeah, totally understand it. Yeah. Alrighty. Laura, well, that is fantastic. I totally thought that you had those made. Like, I thought you had a graphic designer making all those. I had no idea that it was you.    Laura Petix     So that's all me. It's all me, and it's so, it's so, it's really fun, I love doing.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, that's awesome. It's a great way to get away from without getting away Exactly. Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on before I let you go. Where can people learn about you and the OT butterfly?    Laura Petix     Yes. So as Jayson already said, I am all over Instagram at the OT butterfly. My website is the OT butterfly.com and on there you can find all of my podcast transcripts that are kind of turned into blogs. I also have some blogs on there, and that's where you can find more about my courses and my one on one, and my podcast if you just want to listen straight on Apple Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. It's sensory wise. It's a sensory wise solutions podcast for parents. And I'm going to shout out Sarah putt ot for life, because she helped me get all of that off the ground last summer, and I'm almost reaching my one year mark. And so Sarah, if you're listening, thank you. She's also the person who popped my podcast cherry. I was the first, she was the first podcast I was ever invited on to speak. So I know a lot together, and anyone listening should also listen to her podcast.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. Yeah, Sarah has been on the on the podcast a few times. Now she actually hosted my 100th episode. Oh my gosh, just a few weeks ago. So yeah, it was, it was amazing. We all love Sarah here and so, yeah, well, thank you, Laura. I appreciate having you. I appreciate your time today, and I look forward to seeing all the parents, all the all the kids that you are going to help over the many years to come. I appreciate you sharing that a little bit about that with us. So thanks again.     Laura Petix     Thank you so much for having me. Thanks everyone for listening.    Jayson Davies     All right, everyone that was Laura petts from the OT butterfly, please, please, please do go check her out on Instagram and her website, even if you don't need her, course, because you're an occupational therapist and you don't have a child yourself with sensory processing disorder, go check it out. She just has so much good stuff. She also has a bunch of free resources if you just subscribe with your email. So all of that is going to support you. As she mentioned, you know, she started with a TPT, a Teachers Pay Teachers, which I know everyone listening as a school based ot has gone on to TPT, so she really understands occupational therapy. And as you also heard a little bit about her child, Liliana, she is really starting to understand school based services, maybe not ot yet, but understanding five oh fours and all of that great stuff. So yeah, be sure to check that out. And with that, I'm gonna say so long for today, and I will see you in episode number 105 on the OTs schoolhouse podcast. Take care. Bye.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast, for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com . Until next time class is dismissed.  Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 105 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. As an OT practitioner in the schools, it doesn’t take long to realize that most of the evaluation referrals coming your way are due to handwriting concerns. As such, you have probably begun to fine-tune your ability to promote increased fine motor, visual motor, and manual dexterity skills. But another way to address handwriting is through adapting the environment and using tools to support students’ ability to learn handwriting in a new way. In this episode of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, I want to introduce you to an adapted paper I developed over 5 years and still recommend to parents and teachers today. I also want to give it to you for free so that you can use and share it as well. Have a listen to learn the following objectives: Learn about common types of adapted paper used by School-Based OTPs Learn why and how I decided to create Gray-Space Paper Learn how to use Gray-Space Paper to support students with handwriting difficulties Resources Gray-Space Paper Abilitations Hi-Write Paper Do2Learn Stop-Go paper Learning (Handwriting) Without Tears Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development. Now to get the conversation started, here is your host. Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hello, ot practitioners. What is happening? I hope you are having a great day. We're doing things I don't know, not different today, but it is just going to be a solo episode. It's only going to be me, which I don't know I enjoy. Sometimes I know you all enjoy. Sometimes, just hearing from me, I'm actually recovering from COVID. Long story, I went on a vacation with my wife, my my child, Kyler, and my in laws, and we went up to Mammoth here in California, up north, and came back with COVID. Unfortunately, Kyler was the first one to get it, and it was kind of inevitable that myself and my wife would also get it. And so that's what happened. So you might hear a little clearing of my throat throughout this episode, I will be mindful to edit out coughs. No one wants to hear coughs on a podcast, but you might hear an occasional clearing of the throat. Everyone is doing well now. We are all recovering. We're no longer we no longer have a fever, we no longer have the chills, the eggs, or anything like that, but we all kind of have an occasional cough that that still comes out once and a while. So this episode, I just wanted to dive in to just me and you here today. You know we're not going to have a special guest. And actually, this is an episode that I meant to record over 100 episodes ago, and I'm finally doing it today. It is something that is near and dear to my heart. It's something that I created, and I wanted to share that with you. And what that is, is the gray space paper that we have that you can get 100% for free@otschoolhouse.com when you subscribe to our email list, this is a document of nine different pages of paper that you get completely for free. And I developed this. I actually sold it a little bit on Teachers Pay Teachers for a while, like $1 each, but I was like, at the end of the day, I just wanted to give it out so that people could use it, so that OTs could share it with teachers, share it with the kids that they work with, and any other professional within the schools that might use it. So I'm going to share a little bit about the history to the development and also why I prefer to use this paper as opposed to some other adapted papers out there. So that's what we're going to talk about today. I'm excited to talk about this with you, even though that it's a little difficult to talk every now and then with COVID Right now, I'm excited to share this with you today. So let's go ahead and dive into it. This is episode 105 of the OT school house podcast, and we're talking about gray space paper, which is a nine page, nine PDF paper that you can get for free at the OT school house. So let's get into it. All right, so before I get into the how I developed it, and kind of the purpose behind it, I do just want to talk a little bit about the history as to why this is important and why I ended up developing it. I don't think it's any sort of surprise that handwriting concerns is the number one reason for referral for occupational therapy from teachers, administrators, anyone who is making that referral, even parents themselves. I don't have the research off the top of my head, but there have been a few different surveys to occupational therapy practitioners that have shown that their number one reason for referral, or to them, is indeed handwriting. If you have worked in the schools for more than a month, you have also seen this. I'm sure where your referrals that are coming to you for an occupational therapy assessment is because of handwriting. So that kind of begs the question, well, what type of interventions can we use for handwriting? Right? We get a handwriting assessment, or we get a handwriting referral. I should say we complete an assessment. And sure enough, yes, we do see handwriting as a concern that is preventing the student from accessing their educational curriculum. And there's a few different things that we can do right? We can sit down and use a program, handwriting program itself, and work with the student, 101, we could potentially do that in a small group. We can recommend that the teacher use a handwriting program in the classroom. We can provide adaptive paper, kind of like what we're going to talk about today. We can recommend that a student use a different type of word processing, maybe they use speech to text or even word processing using a keyboarding man, back in the day, we used to have those keyboards that like just had a little screen. I can't even think of the name on the other right now, but iPads have basically replaced those types of tools, right? A lot of kids are using an iPad or a different type of tablet. But there are many different ways that we can go about supporting a student that has difficulty with handwriting. And as I mentioned, adapted paper is one of those ways. Now, when I was working with a lot of kids with handwriting difficulties, I had several go to adaptive papers. You know. When I first started in the schools. In fact, I'll share with you a few of my favorite different adaptive papers to use. One was the abilitation high right paper for sizing. That's at least what it promoted for the most part was sizing of letters. If you've never seen this paper before, if you have a three line paper, the bottom part of the paper between lines one and two was highlighted yellow and the top was white. So this would support students in identifying the difference between what I call and many of us call small and tall letters. Right. Tall letters had to start at the top line. Small letters start at the midline and only go into the small bottom area, so high right paper from habilitations, they do sell that in bulk, and you can buy it. I don't know the cost of it. It's probably somewhere in the 15 to $20 a ream, if you want to call it that, or for like, 100 pages, or something like that. And it does have that bright yellow area underneath the midline going down to the baseline. Now, the pro about this is that it is very bright. It is a great visual cue. But what the Pro is is also a con, because it is very bright. It's very yellow. It stands out very much from paper that maybe a student's peer is using, they're using maybe just standard three line paper, and then next to them, the peer who's using the high right paper is this bright yellow paper. So it's good. It provides that visual cue, but at the same time, it's an all or nothing. It's either you have the high right or you don't have the high right. And so I kind of see that as a con. Another paper that I actually really appreciated, using it, and I did get a little bit of inspiration from it is the do to learn, stop go paper. Now this paper doesn't have the visual cue of being highlighted, but it does have a visual cue of little tick marks where each letter could go. Think of it kind of like graph paper, except it doesn't have a top line or a bottom line, per se of the boxes, it just has the little tick marks, and so one letter can go in between two tick marks. Now I really like that, because it focuses on spacing. And as I mentioned, I did kind of get some inspiration from that when I developed the gray space paper. And we'll talk about that in a little bit, because we always have those kids that they squish all their words together, and they need a little bit of that defined space, a little bit of definition for them to understand where a space goes in between words you might have heard using spaghetti and meatball, the spaghetti and meatball theory when it comes to teaching kids how to space out the words, right? So in a single word, you put a spaghetti space in between the letters, or just a very, very fine line space in between the word or the letters, and then in between words, you use a meatball space, which is a larger space so the stop go paper makes that a little bit more defined by actually giving them a little visual cue of tick marks for where to stop and start their letters. I guess you could call it now, again, the pro for this is that spacing aspect, but the con is that it's very limited in size. And again, it's either an all or nothing type of situation, either you have the tick marks or you don't have the tick marks. And so that was something that was nice about it. But at the same time, when you're trying to generalize and moving away from using that paper helping a student move back toward the typical third grade classroom paper that's being used, it's either all or nothing. You don't have that reduction in the visual cue. Now there's a paper that is common out there, and I'm not a big fan of it. And I just want to kind of say why I'm not a big fan of it. Now, the program itself is great. It has helped millions of kids, but I am not a fan of the Handwriting Without Tears paper. I think that it is difficult for kids to generalize from the two line paper that they used over to two or three line paper that is very common when you're not using the Handwriting Without Tears program paper, maybe if you started with the handwriting without tears, paper, when a student is in kindergarten or first grade just learning to write, maybe it could make sense, because they do actually have the paper kind of grow with the kids. The lines do get closer together as they move through the advanced level of books. But if you are a student that has learned traditionally on three line paper, and then you go over to the Handwriting Without Tears paper, I think it's confusing. And I've seen a lot of kids get confused by it myself, and so I have strayed away from that. So those are the three different papers that I know are very common within school based OT. And so I just wanted to talk about some of those pros and some of those cons. Of course, traditional three and two line paper. Those are, you know, used the most you have those composition books and different so. Style notebooks, college rule and wide rule paper. Those are all great. And of course, they are the least restrictive paper, if you want to kind of use that Least Restrictive term. But sometimes kids do need a little bit more. And so when I was, you know, working in school based occupational therapy several years ago, and I was using the rehabilitation paper, and I was using the do to learn paper, and occasionally using the handwriting, the handwriting without tears, paper. I can't say that right today, I ultimately decided that there are a few factors that I didn't like enough about them, and I figured, you know what, I want to create something that will work for me and the students that I serve, and so that is what led me to go ahead and create the gray space paper that I now give away for free at ot schoolhouse.com you can get that by going to OT schoolhouse.com/subscribe you can get that right now. There's probably a link in the show notes that you can use as well. And now, the reason that I wanted to do this is because those other papers that I mentioned, I mentioned a few of the cons. The pros being the visual supports that they provide, but the con is also the visual supports that they provide, because in the high right paper, it's very bright. It's very yellow, even with the stop go paper, there's tick marks. But you can't, you can't make the tick marks go away. They're either there or they're not there. And so I didn't like how it was an all or nothing type of thing. And also, they were very expensive to actually get these papers, especially the high right? You know, you can't copy a yellow bright paper, a for legality reasons and B, because most of our printers in the schools are black and white printers, and so if you printed it out, either you'd have a dark, black line or maybe a very light line. Not saying that I ever did that, because copyright stuff, but that's part of the reason that I made my own paper, because then I could copy it off as much as I want. I could provide it to teachers and give it to them. And secondly, what I kind of already referenced too, is I didn't like that. It was an all or nothing. There wasn't the ability for our students to grow with this paper or intently, I guess, for the paper to grow with our students. Yeah, the lines got a little bit smaller, closer together, but that visual cue was all or nothing. So what did I do? Well, I opened up a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet, and I got to work, I started to develop. Well, to be honest, at this point, I had no idea how to use Excel, but I started to develop my skills with Excel, and started to realize how you could change the width and the size of each individual line and column and row and all that good stuff, things that are so simple to me now I had no idea what I was doing. So I thought that Excel would work because of the different rows, and it actually ended up working very well. And so what I did was that I created rows and I offset the colors to add one every other row was a very, very light gray, and that was going to be the area between the baseline and the midline, kind of like the ability has the the bright yellow space. Well, I kind of used that, except I used gray space, or gray, the color gray. And so I added a midline, I added a top line, a baseline, I added a space of white in between, in between the first line and the second line. You know, because I was making paper for very younger kids. And so I was using a landscape model as opposed to a portrait. And so I wanted to, you know, provide some space in between the individual lines themselves. Then what I also did was, on each individual box, I added, or at least for the bottom area of the lines. You can see all this at on the website, to check out our gray space what it looks like. But to describe it is, I added little tick marks only on the boxes that developed the bottom part of each line. So between the baseline and the midline, I created little tick marks, kind of like what the stop, go paper from do to learn has. So I kind of incorporated ideas from both the high right paper, except I didn't use yellow. I use gray. And then also the tick mark paper, or the tick marks from the other paper, because I did like that aspect of being able to help a student space. I would oftentimes let them put a sticker where there should be a space, or something like that. So I incorporated these together. I started off with this paper being very large. It was for, or when I first started to develop, at least, I was developing it for like, a kindergarten age student or maybe a first grader that's writing very large. Again, I wanted to make it copyable printable, so it's all gray. There's no color to it, and it's just very standard. Now, what was nice about creating this was that it was. My own. I could share it as much as I want. I could email it off to a teacher so that they could print as much as they wanted. I could email it home to a parent so that they could use it. And so now there was no worrying about cost of having to buy or share purchase materials. This is something that was created by myself, and so I could share it as much as I want. Now, what was also nice about this is because once the students that I started using this paper with started to make progress, and I was seeing that they were ready to kind of move on to the next level of paper, I guess you could call it. Well, then I went in and I copied that paper that I had made before, and I made some adjustments to it. I didn't just make the line smaller and turn it to portrait mode, but I was able to actually make those tick marks a little bit less prominent, so they were still there. They were still visual cue. But you really had to look for them if you needed them. Likewise, the gray paper that or the gray line that you could that was on that baseline area to kind of help with the sizing of letters, I brought that back as well. I made it more transparent and less gray, and so the paper looked more like your traditional style paper with just lines. And I had the lines on the sides, you know, the indentation lines, but that gray and this tick marks were slowly disappearing. And then as the kids got more advanced, they needed smaller paper. And again, I did the same thing. I actually reduced the tick mark visibility. I removed, or completely removed, I think at this point the gray, because their sizing was getting so good, and so now their paper was growing with them. As they improved their writing, their paper had less and less visual marks that they no longer needed, as opposed to just making the paper smaller and keeping all the visual marks that they didn't really need. I was taking away those visual stimuli that was actually facilitating their growth. So that was kind of how I went down this process of developing the grace based paper, and I ended up eventually having nine different pages. The reason for that is because kids needed different things. Some kids at kindergarten, if they got what they needed by time they got to the first second grade, they no longer needed those tick marks in the gray line to help size their their words. But other students, maybe I didn't start working with them until second grade, and they needed smaller paper, but they still needed the tick marks and the gray line. And so I had that available for those students who needed it. But again, I wanted them to be able to eventually grow and graduate from one paper to the next, where the tick marks gradually faded away, and so did the gray line that helped them with the sizing of the letters. I wanted that to fade away as well. And so now I do have nine pages, and it goes from the entire span of the gamut, I guess you could call it from, you know, being landscape a few lines on a page for those kindergarten kids, all the way up to working with students that are maybe in fourth, fifth or above, where those lines are nice and small and they're close together, and the gray is just so faint that it just is that little bit of prompt that they need, but just enough to give them the prompt, but not enough to be like, Wait, what is this paper I'm using? This is like, so weird. So it's just the right amount of prompt that they need, and it can be adjusted, even for whatever reason. Say you download the copy of gray space paper. This is a little trick, and you find that the gray isn't dark enough, or maybe it's too dark. What is a little trick that you can use is if you're making photocopies, or even if you're just printing this off from your printer or your computer to your printer, you can adjust the darkness of your printer settings and make those lines a little bit lighter or darker. And so that's what's really great about this, because there's no colors. You don't have to worry about printing it on a color printer. You can just print it out on a black and white printer, and by adjusting the color darkness, or the grayscale darkness, whatever it's called, in your printer settings, you can actually adjust the paper again, individually for that student. And what's really nice is that you can even tell the teacher, hey, the next time you run off this paper, just jot down this little note, print it at 75% darkness, or print it at 50% darkness. And now they know that when they print it off, it'll be the same way that it looked like when you printed it off for their student. All right, so I know a lot of what I'm saying would make a lot more sense if you could actually see the paper. This might actually work really well as a YouTube video as opposed to a podcast, but I wanted to get this out there for you, and really quickly, I want to walk through the different sizes of. Paper and kind of what they look like. But again, be sure to head on over to OT schoolhouse.com/subscribe to get your paper as well, so that you have that ready to print off for the 2023, school year, or whatever school year you are heading into or are in right now. So as I mentioned, there are nine different iterations of the paper. And I'm going to start from the very top. The first paper that I made is, or the first few, I should say, are actually designed with a kindergarten sizing in mind. And so we have one inch paper with a 20, or, sorry, 25% or one quarter inch space after each line. So think of like your typical three line paper for kindergarten, how it's on the landscape page and it has spacing in between the lines for those tail letters that go down. And so we have that. It has the gray and it has the tick marks moving up from there. Also, kindergarten paper is a three quarter inch line with, again, a quarter inch of space in between the the individual lines. So that, again, we're moving slightly toward smaller lines, but we still have nice big lines for kindergarteners. It has the gray and it has the spacing, and then we get to where we take away that space in between the lines for kindergarten, slash first graders still on landscape, three quarter inch line, but no space in between the lines. Still has the gray, still has the spacing, but we are making the lines a little bit smaller for the students at this area, or at this time when a student is learning to use this paper, sizing and spacing is a huge component that they need to learn, and that is why all the visual aspects are there for all the kindergarten paper from one inch to three quarter inch, we have all the spacing. We have all the gray sizing visual cues to help them out. As we get to first and second grade paper, still on landscape, more toward the first grade paper, we have wide spacing on half inch line. Now there's no longer spacing again in between the lines, so it's a lot more space for a child to write on, but it still does have all the spacing visual cues. Now, after we have those first four pages, we're going to do two things now with the next step up in the paper. First, we're going to turn it from being landscape mode. We're going to turn it on its side to make it portrait, so now you have shorter lines, but more lines on a given page. The other thing that we are now doing is, because kids are getting a little more proficient with their writing, is we're narrowing those tick marks to make the space that they have for each individual letter a little bit smaller. All right, then we have a imitation of that paper. It's the same exact half inch line has those narrow spaces, but we're taking away the gray, so now they no longer potentially need the gray to help with sizing. And then after that, we also have a one half inch paper that has no gray or no spaces, so this looks more like your typical three line paper on a portrait sheet of paper, it's just, you know, you got your top line, your midline and your baseline all the way down the page. And that brings us to our final sizing change, the final two pieces of paper, the final two, I guess you could call it stages with the gray space paper. The final sizing of the lines is two fifths of an inch from the top line to the baseline. And there's two versions of this. Neither of these final two pages have the spacing tick marks, but they both still have the gray bottom part of the line and the white top part. One of them includes a dashed midline in between the white and the gray, and the other does not include that white dash mark in between the white and the gray. So again, we are simply removing some of the visual cues that help with the writing to help lead the child back to using the least restrictive paper, if you want to call it that, which is eventually the paper that they use in the classroom that they are a part of. You know, we do want the student to eventually get to using paper that looks the same as their peers next to them, but we want to do that in a way that actually supports them and not just throws them in the deep end using paper that is not conducive to their writing style. So we want to help get them there, but we want to do it in a way that is a going to help build them up and be also going to slowly. Reduce the amount of supports that they need. So that is the grace based paper. I kind of outlined the nine different pages that you get for free when you subscribe at ot schoolhouse.com/subscribe , and you can get it all there. I know this is visual when we're talking about paper, we're talking a lot about visual aspects. I mentioned the term visual cues that this paper provides over and over and over again, and maybe I should actually produce a YouTube video that has all the visuals for you, but be sure to head on over to the show notes at ot schoolhouse.com/episode 105, or just go straight to OT schoolhouse.com/subscribe and you can get this paper 100% free to use for your convenience, to use with your students, to pass along to teachers, so that they can use as well. So that is going to wrap up Episode 105 of the OT school house podcast. I hope everything I said, even though, without the visuals, made sense, and I do hope that you head on over and grab the paper for your use. I know that it will help your student. I've had so many teachers. I've had therapists come back to me, even parents have come back to me. Sent me an email, and they have just shared words of appreciation because this paper has supported their student, and that's all I can ask for I'm so happy that that is the case. I love getting those emails. And who knows, maybe one day you'll use this paper and you will feel the same, the same movement to send me an email and say, Hey, Jayson, Thanks for Thanks for creating this or maybe you'll use this paper and you'll think that it's even something that could be better, and you'll go ahead and create your own paper. You know, things can always be improved, and I have made adaptations to this paper several times over the years to get it to the point that it is now. And actually, I still have a few ideas that I want to do to make this paper even better. And who knows, maybe that'll come in the near future. Well, this episode, we are just about through that 30 minute mark. I wanted to keep this short. I wanted to preserve my COVID voice you can probably hear it's getting a little raspy, but thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate you. I appreciate you taking the time to learn more so you can support your students as a school based occupational therapy practitioner, thank you again, and I will see you in episode 106 of the OT school house podcast. Until then, take care and have a great rest of your day. Peace out. Bye.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com . Until next time class is dismissed.  Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. Subscribe now! Thanks for visiting the podcast show notes! If you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts , Google Podcast , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts Click here to view more episodes of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast

Click on your preferred podcast player link to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts Welcome to the show notes for Episode 106 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. As OTP’s we know that goal writing can get a bit difficult at times. Understanding each component of a goal will ultimately lead to better goal writing. Taking the time to write goals is a huge part of helping the students and other people involved see what progress has been made. Today we are speaking with Sarah Beaulieu, MOT, OTR/L. and Emily Deller, MOT, OTR/L. They are speaking in-depth about their experience with goal writing in their districts and how it can differ in different districts and states. If you struggle with writing goals in a school-based setting, their goal writing workshop can help with mastering SMART, client-centered goals that are easy to measure. Tune in to learn the following objectives: Listeners will learn about SMART goals Listeners will learn the key components to writing a great goal Listeners will learn how goals differ in a school-based setting and a pediatric clinic setting Listeners will learn more about the long-term and short-term goals in the school-based setting Listeners will learn more about changing and updating goals in a school-based setting Listeners will learn how to write more collaborative goals Guest Bio Emily Deller, MOT, OTR/L Emily Deller, MOT, OTR/L is passionate about sharing her knowledge with OTs and healthcare professionals, her ‘OT brain’ is rarely off. She graduated from the University of the Sciences in Philadelphia with her Master's in Occupational therapy in 2016 with honors and the Occupational Therapy Faculty Award. She is currently a pediatric Occupational Therapist for the Delaware Autism Program and Delaware School for the Deaf. She has provided occupational therapy services in homes, schools, and to the pediatric population in her community. She also is an adjunct professor at Wesley College in Delaware. Sarah Beaulieu, MOT, OTR/L is a school-based occupational therapist going into her 5th school year working with early elementary students. She began her OT journey in the outpatient clinic setting, where she found her passion for pediatrics. Sarah is the owner of Sarah Bee OT LLC, where she creates high-quality therapy resources and educational content for OT practitioners across all pediatric settings. Notable Quotes "The main idea of writing school-based OT goals are for accessing your education" -Emily D. "Goal writing, especially for school-based is not something that’s always well taught in OT programs, so it is difficult to know whether or not you're writing good goals, high-quality goals." -Sarah B “So, legally goals are required to show what skills we are addressing in order to provide those direct services in a public school environment” - Emily D “I like to think of RTI as writing more goals for a classroom, as opposed to an IEP as goals for an individual student” -Jayson D “A stranger should be able to read your goal and know exactly how to implement that goal, they should really have a clear understanding of what you're trying to target and how you're going to measure that goal” - Sarah B “We know a lot of times the skills that are presented at home are different than in school” - Emily D “More goals don't always mean more progress” - Emily D “Making sure that you have a plan on how you're both going to, contribute to working towards that goal, what unique skills you're going to be bringing to the table in order to help them achieve that goal” -Sarah B Resources Emily's Website Sarah's Website Sarah's Instagram Emily's Instagram Goal Writing Workshop Best Practices for Occupational Therapy in Schools, 2nd Edition ASHA statement for Collaborative Goals in School-based Practice Documenting OT Practice” by Karen Sames Documenting OT services in Schools- AOTA Episode Transcript Expand to view the full episode transcript. Amazing Narrator     Hello and welcome to the OT school house podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews and professional development, now to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jayson Davies, class is officially in session.    Jayson Davies     Hey everyone, and welcome back for another amazing episode of the OT school house podcast. Thank you so much for being here. My name is Jayson Davies. I'm a school based occupational therapist in Southern California and wherever you are today. I'm just excited that you're here right now listening to this podcast. Why? Because that means that you're a school based ot practitioner that wants to be a better school based ot practitioner, not just for yourself, but for the students that you serve, the teachers you work with, and the parents that you have the pleasure, I know sometimes it doesn't seem like a pleasure, but the pleasure of having IEP meetings with and helping them to support their child. So today we are here to talk about goals. Speaking of IEPs, right, we are talking about goals, and I am bringing on to a very special guest to help us talk about goals. If you're an occupational therapist like myself or an occupational therapy assistant, and you've helped your occupational therapist trying to get my words right here to help them create goals, or maybe you even create most of the goals yourselves. Then like me, you have probably found yourself making some very interesting goals. Sometimes, you know, you make great goals. Other times, you look back on a goal that you created a year ago and you're just like, What was I thinking? Right? Well, today, we are going to advance on that, and we're going to talk about what makes a good goal within school based occupational therapy, you know, within school based OT, I like to say we are very niche within niche, yes, niche within the world of pediatric occupational therapy and goals within school based ot are different from clinic based goals. So today, we are going to talk to Emily Deller and Sarah bullyer about how to create school based occupational therapy goals that actually matter. Goals not only allow us to measure progress, but they also kind of drive our services and the accommodations that we recommend. So they absolutely are important when we are developing our goals within an IEP. So without any further ado, let me go ahead and welcome to the show Emily Deller and Sarah bullyer. You might better know them as Emily Marie OT and Sarah B ot on Instagram. Hello. Welcome to the OT schoolhouse podcast. How are you doing today Sarah?    Sarah Beaulieu     I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having us on.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, so excited. And you said us because today we have two very special guests. We also have Emily, how are you doing today Emily?    Emily Deller     I'm doing great. Thanks.    Jayson Davies     Awesome. Well, you know to start off, why don't we start with a little fun question of how you both found your way to being a school OT, Emily, would you like to start us off on this one?    Emily Deller     Sure, I honestly never thought that I would end up in the schools. Straight out of OT school. I worked in outpatient peds, and that was kind of my dream, starting out of OT school, and figured out pretty quickly that that wasn't for me. A co worker just mentioned that her old job was looking for an OTR, so I jumped at the chance to start something new, and I fell in love.    Jayson Davies     That's awesome. Yeah, you know, we never know where we're going to end up. I thought that by now in my career, I'd be owning like a pediatric clinic, and definitely don't own a pediatric clinic, but have the OT school house. So yeah, you know, we end up right where we belong. So absolutely great way to find a school based OT and what about you Sarah?    Sarah Beaulieu     so I started in outpatient pediatrics as well. That was my first gig, and several months into that job, I got my foot in the door with a local school district covering a maternity leave. I came back later that summer to cover their es y program. And then, funny enough, they added on a full time position in that district the following school year. So I applied and interviewed and ended up being full time there ever since.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha. And you know, so this is interesting, because I've always wondered this. I always thought I would go into a pediatric job before school based OT, but you both did, and I'm wondering, how do you feel that having a pediatric clinic based position, did that impact you as a school based OT, once you got there, anyone want to jump off with that one?    Emily Deller     Yeah, sure. I definitely think it made a positive difference because of the support that I had with other therapists around me, there was a lot more intervention learning and kind of like the beginning ropes of being an OT and in pediatrics that I got from working outpatient, whereas in the schools, you tend to be more isolated, and you don't necessarily see the wealth of interventions in areas that we can address.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and Sarah, you want to add anything else?    Sarah Beaulieu     I kind of had the opposite experience, because in my pediatric with the clinic setting, I was very much on my own. Oftentimes I might be the only therapist there at the clinic, so that really kind of taught me how to be more confident in my skill set and work independently, and have that confidence to be able to relay what I know to the parents. But once I came into the school setting, it was a totally different world. Being able to be around all those other professionals was really awesome. Getting to work alongside other therapists, speech therapists, PTs, so I really enjoyed that change in the school setting.    Jayson Davies     That's so interesting, I know, because I have often told therapists that it might be a good idea to start in a pediatric clinic, because I have seen what Emily has seen. I have seen pediatric clinics where you are treating right next to a therapist, and maybe you're not like working with that therapist directly, but all that rubs off onto you. You see what they're doing with a kid, and you get ideas and and you're right. Or at least in my experience, Emily, like you don't have that in the school based OT, you're often on your own. You have three schools, and they are your three schools, or whatever it is, and you don't have someone and and you might meet with them once a month to have an OT meeting, but you don't get that. But it's interesting to hear you can have the opposite effect. Sarah, were you at like, a very small clinic? Or why do you think that that was.    Sarah Beaulieu     Yeah, it was a really small clinic. It was mostly contracted therapists. You know, most of them were working part time. It was a second job. They're working per diem or contracting out to different preschools. So a lot of people just coming and going and not as much of that 40 hour work week where you're working throughout the day with other therapists.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha, all right. Well, you know, it's always nice to hear differing stories, because, you know, everyone out there, they're trying to figure out what, which way they want to go. So it's great to hear two different things. I assume that you guys were both going to say the same thing on that, that it started off, you know, a lot of community within the pediatric clinic, and then you went to schools and but that's great to hear Sarah that, you know, it's not always the same route. So thank you. All right, so today we are here to talk about goals. So let's dive into it. First of all, let's set the scene. Why is talking about goal writing important for school based OTs?    Emily Deller     So goal writing is really an inevitable part of documentation for an OT regardless of your setting, right? So it's how we track progress over time. It shows our skill there and need to be working with a student or a client. So what we found is that school based ot goals are really uniquely written, and they're not frequently addressed in OT school curriculums or not done in an extended period of time. So we're here to really share what we've learned over years of experience and feedback from others in our profession, as well as just our experiences in a bunch of different settings.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. And Sarah, I want to let you continue on. But I also, as I'm thinking, how are they slightly different from a pediatric setting too, or a clinic setting, I should say,    Emily Deller     yeah. So it depends really on the areas that you can write goals for. So the main idea of writing school based ot goals are for accessing your education. So we need to make sure that what we're addressing is really improving and enhancing the students participation throughout the school day and in those in that educational curriculum, whereas pediatrics and outpatient you can really work on whatever the caregiver concern is or whatever you see is most fundamental at that time.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha. And Sarah, would you like to add anything?    Sarah Beaulieu     Yeah. So as Emily mentioned, you know, ot goal writing, especially for school based, is not something that's always well taught in OT program, so it's difficult to know whether or not you're writing good goals, high quality goals. So going back to your point, why it's important to talk about this is that it's something that has to be developed over time. It's really is a unique skill set that documentation and goal writing. So talking it out with other experienced therapists can be really helpful in helping to grow that skill set, especially if you don't have good mentorship where you're currently at. So that's why we're here today, is to kind of share what we've learned over the years and hopefully help some newer therapists or therapists that are looking to improve their goal writing in their practice.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. Thank you so much. And you know, one thing that I've realized is that schools districts, they're very different, and so before we actually continue on, I want to give you both a second to actually share kind of what type of district are you in? Are you in a rural, small district? Are you in a entire county? Are you in a urban, large district? Where are you both currently practicing? So people know when they're listening to this kind of where you're coming from. How about I will I will say, go ahead.    Emily Deller     Yeah. So I have a unique position. So I'm within a school district in Delaware. However it is, I believe it's the only. Publicly funded autism program, specific autism program, in this in the US. So I work in two specialty programs and autism program and a school for the deaf. So the goals and the programs and kind of the laws that we follow may be a little bit different and a little bit more unique than a typical, just public school environment.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha. Okay, and what about you Sarah?    Sarah Beaulieu     I have somewhat of a unique position as well, and that I'm in a single school. I don't have to travel to multiple schools. I feel very lucky for that position. I do work in a rural school district. I, for those of you who don't know, I'm in Maine, so we have a smaller school district, and I'm just in a single school, working with kids in K through three public school.    Jayson Davies     K through three, that's it.    Sarah Beaulieu     We have a very large school. I think we have 12 different kindergarten classrooms in our school building, so it's quite large.    Jayson Davies     And you said this is kind of in a rural area, right?     Sarah Beaulieu     Yes.     Jayson Davies     Okay, so how far away do kids, some of the kids have to travel to get to their school sites.    Sarah Beaulieu     It could be up to like a 30-45, minute bus ride. It depends.    Jayson Davies     Wow. Okay, so they're coming in from a little distance away. Okay, very cool. All right, back to our regularly scheduled goal writing this for anyone who has sat in more than like five IEPs, ARDS, whatever we want to call them across the United States. This might sound like a little bit of a loaded question, but I would love to hear your response, and that is, why are goals important for IEPs?    Emily Deller     So when it comes down to it, it really is the legal process, and that's why they're required. So legally, goals are required to show what skills we are addressing in order to provide those direct services in a public school environment. And that public school environment is important because in private school environments that can be different, they really also help us focus on what we were working towards so that we can establish a clear plan of care and how we want to get there. So when it comes to IEP documentation, goals show the need areas that the student has, and it is really the skills that they need to improve to again, best access their education.    Jayson Davies     Got it, great. And what about 504 plans, or maybe RTI programs? Do you guys also write goals for those types of programs, or what's your experience with that?    Sarah Beaulieu     So what we found that most common answer is no, most OTs are not writing goals for five oh fours or RTA programs. But of course, it depends. Everywhere you go, typically with 504 plans, you're really focused on providing those appropriate accommodations. So you wouldn't be writing any goals for that. Of course, there's rare occasions where you might be providing short term direct services on a 504 I know some OTs have many students on a 504 again, that varies by state, but in my experience, we don't write goals for students who are accessing services on a 504 plan. When it comes to RTI, you know, similarly, you're really focused on providing general accommodations, strategies or interventions that aren't student specific, so you wouldn't be tracking individual student progress for that.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I completely agree, especially with RTI. You know, I like to provide practitioners with this advice. I like to think of RTI as writing more goals for a classroom, as opposed to an IEP as goals for an individual student. So I might create a quote, unquote goal for their classroom, for all the students in that classroom, but yeah, typically, we're not writing too many goals for individual students of course.    Sarah Beaulieu     I think that's a great way to really keep your RTI programming focused on what you want to achieve, but also keeping it broader for the whole class. Yeah, another thing that's come up too is the debacle of whether or not you're writing goals for ot console. I don't know about you, but in my district, we do have to write goals for ot consult, and in polling our audiences, the majority do not. So do you guys have to write goals for consult?    Jayson Davies     It has changed over the years. I have bought this a lot in my school districts. Personally, I am one to like I am one to speak up when it comes to, you know, meeting with my directors and whatnot. And we've gone back and forth with this. You know, I've worked in three different districts, and it keeps going back and forth as to whether or not we need a goal, my preference, I guess you would call it, is that, no, it should not be an OT goal. It should be a teacher goal, and we are consulting with the teacher to help the teacher help the student make that goal. That's my opinion. However, sometimes I'm one to ask for forgiveness as opposed to permission, so I might not always do exactly what my director wants. So you know it is what it is, but I do know that throughout the United States it does change, and you already touched upon this once, like the reason that one district might do it and another district might not comes down oftentimes. The legality and what their state is saying, because maybe the state has been sued for not having a goal on a consult, and it's unfortunate that that tends to be a reasoning. But yeah, I don't know. Do you want to add anything about that?    Emily Deller     I've definitely had my share of experiences with that and the legality we questioned and things like that. But yeah, I completely agree, in terms of the consult, where working more collaboratively in other goals on the IEP can be more beneficial than just writing an OT goal as a console.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah.    Sarah Beaulieu     I agree with the No. I'm on the no consult Goal team as well. For me, it I feel that when I have to write a goal for consultation, it really kind of boxes me into what I'm consulting about, and having to track and measure where, oftentimes the kid that we have on consult may have a variety of different needs, and it's fluid throughout the school year. There may be different needs that are coming up throughout the year, not just tied to one specific area. So if I had the choice, I would also say no goals for ot consult to give us more flexibility in what we're addressing if we are in a district that's writing separate ot discipline specific goals.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, you know what? Sorry, this is completely off the cuff. But have you ever had to have a tough conversation with someone above you, or maybe someone within the IEP team about this. How come ot should not be writing a goal for a studentConsult? Have you ever had that conversation with someone?    Emily Deller     I have in terms of pushing what they call a written expression goal? So a lot of times I find that the schools and the programs I'm working when in don't necessarily have handwriting programs, but they're assuming that the OT will teach handwriting, so that's where I come in, and we'll put my foot down and have in terms of talking to case managers about this skill has not been taught, so I'm not teaching, and I'm here to provide remediation on that. And I think that's one good like advocacy step too, in terms of getting away from handwriting therapists.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely I agree. And I do think that OTs need to push back just a little bit. You know, we need to know what we are personally great at, and what we can do and what we can support a student. But we also need to know in the opposite side what we shouldn't be doing, what we are not able to do. And, you know, it's hard to say, give a student ot when they haven't had that initial training on handwriting first for just to go with the handwriting example. And in that sense, it might be better off to provide that consult to a teacher how they can support the students, especially, you know, at the younger grade levels, before going down the remediation route and creating your own specific ot goals. So yeah, all right, Emily, you touched upon this a little bit earlier when we talked about goals within and outside of the public schools, or within within or outside schools, I should say. But is there a quote, unquote lane that we should stay within as a school based ot when it comes to goal writing?    Sarah Beaulieu     So we'd like to say no, that there's no lane that we should stay in so long as we're practicing within our scope, right? But logistically, we can't possibly cover every single area in our scope for every single student. We can address anything within our scope, from ADLs to executive functioning. We definitely do not have to stick to just fine motor being fine motor therapist, which we're often known for. But what's great about working within a team is that there's often other skilled professionals that can address any common areas of overlap. So for example, while we are skilled in addressing social skills and emotional regulation, there might be a speech therapist who's working on social pragmatics, or a counselor or social worker who's taking on that emotional regulation piece. So while we can pursue anything within our scope, it might not always be the best use of our skill set. If there's other professionals that can kind of take on some of that role, and of course, we can still also work collaboratively with them to share our experience when it comes to those areas too.    Jayson Davies     I love that answer, Tara, that that's great. Like, just because we can do it doesn't mean we are the best at doing it. So I really, I really like that. Emily, did you want to add anything to to that quote, unquote lane of of goal writing?    Emily Deller     Sure. Yeah. So we really do encourage OTs to think outside of that fine motor, that handwriting box that we had just talked about, because we are so much more than that and have so much more value. But there is the reality of it that we do need to work within what the special education coordinator or the case manager approves in the IEP. So if you are feeling quote, unquote, boxed in, you can work to expand your role as an OT over time. So maybe you are just doing fine motor goals now, but really advocate and address for the other important areas with those higher ups in the school district or within your own team, so that you can start to work on some of those in the future.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. So you know, I've been a school based ot for several years now. I know both of you have as well, and I'm sure you just like, I have created many great goals. Goals, and also maybe some not so great goals, right? You look at it a year later and you're like, wow, what was I thinking? But we all need, like, a system to help us remember what makes a great goal. There's a lot of acronyms for goal writing. You have smart goals. Some people subscribe to the dumb goals, D, U, M, B, goals. Do you use any particular acronym, do you smart or do you something else?    Sarah Beaulieu     Sure. So when we're teaching about goal writing, we specifically speak to smart goals, which, for listeners who may not know, stands for specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and time bound. And we use that smart goal framework to make sure that we're really including all of the information necessary in order to make that goal client centered and measurable. So the way that we write the goal, word for word, can depend on the district, the program that we're using, the electronic documentation system, or IEP program. So it may not look exactly like that soap note format that we were taught in OT school or smart smart goal format, but as long as we're keeping that framework in mind, we can be confident that we're including everything we need in order to make that goal high quality and measurable.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, and I know you both actually collaborate together to to actually provide a training for therapists on goal writing, specifically in the schools. And so I really want to hear your answer to to this. So we're going to expand upon it a little bit. So I want to know what do you both consider some of those key components? You mentioned the S, M, A, R, T, wording, but what are the key components to a solid goal?    Emily Deller     So there's really three different areas that we focus on, the first being client centered. So is it important to the student? Is it needed to improve access to their education? Are you addressing the students strengths and their individual way of learning? That's something that's very key to making a goal that is going to be attainable but also be motivating for the student. The second one is being functional. So in schools focusing on accessing the educational curriculum, and now that also means that your educational curriculum could be life skills, space, it's whatever that student is accessing. It's not just looking at math, science, spelling, ela, it can really expand to what is that individual curriculum for that student, but also making it functional in terms of working on occupation based skills. So this also brings up the difference between outpatient peds and school based so we are looking more at what is the skill, what is that end goal, rather than looking at the component parts. So instead of a in hand manipulation goal, we're going to put that towards a functional task and that be our measure. And then the third that's really a key component for a solid goal is being measurable, and it's can you take data on the goal so that you're actually getting the information that you want or need? There's a lot of times we write goals and then we go to progress monitoring time, and it's like crap. I was looking at attention when I wanted to look at the real skill, and you don't know where to go with that information. So being measurable is extremely important.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, and you know, let's, let's dive into that measurable a little bit more. How do you go about ensuring that a goal is measurable?    Sarah Beaulieu     One of the most important things is to make sure that you're keeping the language and the goal really objective. You don't want to leave it open to interpretation. So when we're teaching others about goal writing, we really emphasize what we call the stranger test. So a stranger should be able to read your goal and know exactly how to implement that goal. They should really have a clear understanding of what you're trying to target and how you're going to measure that goal. And I think this is really especially important when you're working in a collaboration with a coda who may be implementing those goals and measuring them, or if the student were to move out of district, you want to make sure that their new therapist would share that same understanding of how the goal should be measured, and by using that objective straightforward language, you can help promote that. And another way is to just make sure that you have a plan on how you're going to collect that data before you add that goal to the IEP. So you should have a really clear plan forward of how you see yourself measuring that progress, whether it's with a plus and minus chart, using graphing, activity analysis sheets, those things help ensure that you're able to show meaningful progress over time.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? Going a little bit even further on that, do you, Sarah, will you have either a paraprofessional or even a teacher at any time help you with measuring goals?    Sarah Beaulieu     Absolutely, especially when it comes to working with the self contained teachers and the self contained program, we do a lot of shared collaboration on ADL type goals. So we usually will develop an activity analysis chart, something really quick and easy for them in order to track that progress, and we discuss it on how it's going to be implemented and tracked by the paraprofessional or the teacher in that classroom.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, absolutely. I. I do the same exact thing too. And I think as long as we as professionals a treat them like professionals, and, you know, provide them with the training that they need in order to do whatever we are asking them to do. I think that is completely fair. I also think that if I think, if we're going to work with a pair professional, we need to be working with that teacher very closely as well, because we don't want to overstep the teacher's directives to that paraprofessional, or whatever it might be, and so we might want to go through the teacher to get to the paraprofessional, as opposed to going directly to that paraprofessional. I don't know. Have you found anything that works really well?    Emily Deller     I think that using that collaborative team approach is really important. So maybe talking to the paraprofessional and the teacher at the same time, because I feel like a lot of times there is a power imbalance, or can be a perceived power imbalance, and we don't want to make it that way. We know how important those paraprofessionals are in the classroom to help our students succeed. So talking as to the group or to the educational team as a whole to address this is how I want to take the data. Here's how you can present the goal, and what else, is a good way to go about it.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. All right, so we already established that, Emily, you're in Delaware, Sarah, you're in Maine, correct? All right, yeah, you're, you're, you're far apart, but you're both on the East Coast, north northeast. Do you find that your goals look similar, or do they actually look different because you're in different parts of the country?    Sarah Beaulieu     I think just the nature of the different roles that we're in, the different school settings, they can vary quite a bit. Emily writes a lot of life skills based goals, whereas I do not where I'm working with those younger students, but definitely the formatting varies. I believe, Emily, you have a shared goal bank that all of the contracted therapists use together. Whereas we don't have that consistent formatting. We're kind of, we're able to write our goals in whatever formatting that we like.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, Emily, do you want to add anything?    Emily Deller     Yeah, we we found this as a company to be extremely confusing, as we were working across the program, and everyone had their own kind of way of writing goals, and then the students would either switch placements or would come back on what we call on site, and they would just move around a lot, and we wouldn't know what the goal meant or how to track it. So we came up with a company wide way of how we're writing goals, and the goal bank to pick from and then to modify, to make client centered or student centered, to just be the best for us. But it's also a small company, so we know that that's not very doable in large districts.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, you know, I have, over the years, I've had access to goal banks, and sometimes they've been, you know, on Google Sheets. Sometimes they've been within the IEP program itself, and I've never fully implemented, like, the use of it. It's just it takes a while to to put together a system to use a goal bank. And sometimes it's just easier to write a goal off the cuff, like, you know what you want to work on, and you just want to write it. But I'm sure you know, it is nice to have that goal bank to potentially refer back to and just see, you know, our other ot writing goals kind of similar to this and and going back to that. So absolutely, all right, this is a question that I love to ask all all guests, but specifically in relationship to the topic that we're talking about, and that's a little bit about research. You know, Is there research out there related to best practice for goal writing? You know, I personally have never seen a research article like titled occupational therapy goal writing in schools. But I want to ask you, do you know of any research related to to goal writing in schools?    Sarah Beaulieu     So what we're hearing from our national therapy associations is that collaborative goal writing really is best practice. And recently, a otta and Asha put out a joint statement on inter professional collaborative goals and school based practice. And in that joint statement, they really conclude that collaboration increases understanding of different team member roles, and it really helps to enhance student outcomes, and they help to outline a general process on how therapists can move towards that collaborative model in goal writing.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely and Emily, what about you? Do you, do you have anything else beyond the collaborative goal writing that you like to do as best practice?    Emily Deller     So a OTA does have a book out there called Best Practices for occupational therapy in schools, that includes the best practice areas for goal writing, but not necessarily anything too specific. There is some new research that's coming out in terms of strength based goals. So strengths based goals are really respecting a student's independence, autonomy and preferences within goal writing by looking at what the student can do. It's another way to be client centered and to make sure that the goal is specifically written for an individual harnessing their strengths to learn a new skill.    Jayson Davies     Great. Yeah, I think that absolutely is the way that we are going with goal writing and keeping it strength space, especially in the schools. I think that's a. Right way to go about it, speaking of that, a little bit, because this kind of ties into the type of goals. Is often tied into the number of goals that we have. And so how do you go about determining, in a way, how many goals you want to write for a student. Is there a specific number that you aim for? A specific number that you want to stay under? Is it completely irrelevant? How many numbers, number of goals? What are your thoughts on that?    Sarah Beaulieu     So for me, we're writing ot specific goals in my district. I know that not everybody does, but So keeping that in mind, really less is more you want to aim for maybe two to four goals total. You don't need to write a goal for every single skill that you're working on in therapy, because if we did that, we'd spend more time collecting data than we would on developing those skills. So when I'm writing my ot specific goals for my students, I really try to shoot for that lower range and just making sure we're narrowing it down to the most impactful areas for that student, and choosing to measure those and track those over the IEP year.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, absolutely, you know. And while we're on this topic, because, you know, we might recommend, let's say we recommend two goals, but then a parent comes in, or an advocate comes in and they say, I want a different goal. How might you respond to that? If you know you've already decided on kind of these two goals, how might you respond to that?    Emily Deller     So if it happens at an IEP meeting, the first thing that I always say is I'll have to collect baseline data and get back to you on that. We don't want to just write down a goal willy nilly and not have any kind of data to see what the student actually does. We know a lot of times the skills that are presented at home are different than in school, so always keep that in mind, and IEP can always be amended at a later date, although case managers don't always love that. They'll do, but if it is a concern that's brought up prior to an IEP meeting or in the planning of that, you can definitely ask about specific areas of need that a parent has, that they would like address. So really start that conversation early on to see what are their concerns and how can you address it. It also comes in terms of the advocacy of just more goals don't always mean more progress, and that the skills that we're addressing within one goal probably already are relating to their area of need that they have. So those are just some different ways to go about that. The third way that you could is, and this is very dependent on state and programming, is adding in the parents areas of concern, in your ot need, in the accommodations and modifications. So for example, in my electronic programming, I can write, in addition to the following goals, ot services will address x, y and z through direct and consultative services, but not have a specific goal attached to those. So if that's it's a possibility in some districts.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, and we always have those supplemental aids, modifications, accommodation soon. And I think as OTs, we need to learn to use those a little bit better. It is less restrictive to use an accommodation than it is to provide direct therapy services. And so we need to learn to use those, those accommodations, especially, a little bit more. So thanks for that. I love that answer. By the way that you said, it's okay to say, hey, I need more time. Oftentimes we get caught up in IEP meeting, and we want to just, like, give the right answer. And I think it's perfectly okay to say, I hear you, I understand, but I don't have the data that we need right now to move forward with this. I would love to, you, know, see the student over the next two weeks and then get back to you. I think that's perfectly fine to say. So yeah, exactly with i Sorry. I actually I don't want to go forward because I kind of cut you off in a way, Emily, because I didn't give you an opportunity to talk about the number of goals. It sounds like you use a more collaborative approach potentially within your program. So does that alter the amount of goals that you potentially have as a therapist?    Emily Deller     So when Sarah and I had discussed this in the past, many times, I think she writes too many goals, having four, and I usually stick to one or two, but that's just differences in our programming, right? So while I'm still writing district or sorry that while I'm still writing related service specific goals, I have a more collaborative environment, where we have team meetings every week, where the whole entire educational team is there to discuss this is how we want to address the goal. Here are the supports to put in place so we don't need as many goals, because it is such a trans disciplinary environment already.    Jayson Davies     All right, so Emily, we're all going to need to know what district or school you work for. Jump in on that right weekly collaborative meetings. Wait, what is that? All right, here in California, and I know it's fairly common across the country now for every long term yearly goal, we often have to break that down. Into progress monitoring types of goals like maybe two to three short term objectives. Do you do that? And if so, what does that look like?    Sarah Beaulieu     Yeah. So at my school, all of the related service providers do write short term goals, or what we call also objectives, and the formatting those can vary. So for example, you might have a single long term goal and a single objective under that, or you could have a single long term goal and multiple short term goals under that that are maybe time based per quarter, per trimester. It really varies. We don't have one consistent way in which we write those, but we are required to write those short term goals and objectives.    Emily Deller     And so I've actually found that it's through coaching that that's not the norm. I talk to people in a lot of different states and many districts only write long term goals, so that leaves it up to the therapist to then break that up into the benchmarks, so that they're taking data to show progress over time, and they actually can see it, because otherwise it comes to IEP time, and they may not have any progress, or they're just then looking at that progress reporting.    Jayson Davies     Wow, yeah. In California, it used to be really, when I first started, back in 2012 it was really we only had to write short term objectives for students that that had more severe disabilities, that they were in a more severe program, those types of students that needed more, just more support, for some reason, legally and from the state, we had to write objectives for those, for those kids. However, over the last 10 years, it has really just kind of caught on that we just need to do that for every student. So that's kind of what is that's kind of how it shifted over here in the last 10 years, but yeah, that's interesting to hear that that's not the norm. So, wow.     Sarah Beaulieu     I think that's what makes it so difficult to learn how to write proper goals, because it changes so much from district to district. There's no one gold standard on whether or not you're writing short term goals, how you're going to format those goals, so it makes it really difficult, especially for new grads, to really grow that skill set and really understand if they're doing what's right by the student and what's best practice.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. And, you know, I always tell people that I think it's very unique that in the schools, we write a goal for 12 months. Like 12 months is a really, really long time, especially for a student. And actually, since you both have kind of worked in that pediatric clinic setting outside the schools, or whether it's home or clinic, whatever it might be, really quickly when you write goals there, what time frame are you talking for a goal?    Sarah Beaulieu     When I was an outpatient, we were writing them quarterly.    Jayson Davies     So three months, kind of is, is what the time frame was for each goal. Emily?    Emily Deller     Yeah, mine was three months or insurance based, so we would know how many visits they get before insurance runs out, and do it that way.    Jayson Davies     So if they have 10 sessions for insurance, then you're writing a goal for 10 weeks or five weeks. If they're twice a week, something like that. Wow. So we're talking at most 12 weeks, and in the schools, we're talking a school year is like 40 weeks, or something like that, 35 weeks, something like that. So very big difference from being a pediatric outpatient or out whatever clinic, versus in the schools. Yeah, it's pretty crazy that we read a goal for 12 months, because so much can change in that amount of time? Yeah, all right, moving forward, still talking about goals, of course. Can goals be changed, either at an IEP, or maybe even halfway through the year? Once you know, you put a goal in place at the annual IEP and maybe you see changes, can you make changes to goals halfway through the year?    Sarah Beaulieu     Absolutely, you know, at minimum, we should be updating them annually, and sometimes we'll update them at a triennial, a three year eval meeting as well, if that falls in between each of their annual meetings. If you're finding that as you're progressing throughout the year, several months go by and they're really not making progress to toward those goals, or you're finding that it's really not an appropriate goal for them. For whatever reason, you can absolutely call a meeting to have that amendment. Sometimes I've come across IEPs where the students goals have remained the same for multiple years, which absolutely should not be happening if they're not meeting those annual goals. We need to really reflect on their plan and our approaches and make the appropriate changes so that we're able to make those goals more attainable and realistic for the student. And I know, and speaking with Emily, you know where they work so collaboratively, and they have that those weekly occurrences of meetings, I think Emily, you guys even maybe update them more frequently than annually as well.     Emily Deller     Yeah, so it remember, the parents and caregivers can call IEP meetings at any time, so just because they have the annual doesn't mean that they aren't going to call a meeting with a new concern or one thing's updated, and so can the educational team. But some states also have requirements when goals aren't meeting those objectives or those benchmarks when they have to be revised. So for example, there's a district. My district works, so that. If a student isn't making progress in two consecutive marking periods or benchmarks, it's required to have a revision to address it. So some states also have additional laws to make sure that they're not going an entire year without making progress.    Jayson Davies     absolutely and that is kind of where we're at here in California, like they want to see progress, and grades are really based upon progress on goals, as opposed to their grades within the classroom, a little bit for the self contained classrooms. And so you were talking about Emily, how you kind of write goals that are related service specific, but you really work in this collaborative team. If there's someone out there listening, what might be a tip for starting on the route toward being more collaborative, primarily with goals, but in general, more collaborative.    Emily Deller     Yeah, so Sarah actually has more experience than I do in terms of writing the collaborative goals, because my I'm already in that collaborative environment. It's not necessarily something that I've stepped my feet in. So Sarah, let's just speak to that.     Sarah Beaulieu     Sure. So as I mentioned, we in my district have been writing separate related service provider goals for quite a while, so making that shift is really quite difficult. You know, everybody has their established roles and systems in the way that they do things. So my recommendation would be to really just start small, and that's what I've done. Just this past year, I started in working more closely with the self contained classroom, developing collaborative ADL goals. That's really a really great starting point, I would say, because you really do work so closely with them. You know, oftentimes it's a special education teacher who's writing those dressing goals or toileting goals, but we have such skill and expertise in those areas. So I've tagged on what we call, quote, unquote, tagging on to those special education goals, where typically I might write a separate dressing goal, as is the norm. I've also worked with a resource room teacher on an executive functioning based goal for a student who really that was their biggest area of need. So I think just starting small, starting with maybe a teacher that you're close to who would be open to that collaboration, yeah, trying to do it just a little bit at a time, not trying to all of a sudden, okay, next year, all of my students are going to have just 100% collaborative goals. I'm going to be supporting all of the classroom goals, just really starting small and making that gradual shift towards that collaborative model.    Jayson Davies     All right, and Sarah, as you're making that shift, what are you trying to include in that goal to make sure that it is a collaborative goal.    Sarah Beaulieu     I think it's important in order for it to truly be collaborative, you really need input from both of the professionals who are going to be working on it, so making a point to meet with them ahead of time, to really talk about how that's going to be written, and making sure that you have a plan on how you're both going to contribute to working towards that goal, what unique skills you're going to be bringing to the table in order to help them achieve that goal, as well as having a plan in order to track that progress on the goal, you don't want to come to progress note time and say, Oh, I thought, I thought you were writing the summary. Oh, wait, I was supposed to write the summary. So making sure you're really figuring that all out up front before you get into that situation, because that definitely would not be a fun time.    Jayson Davies     100% the last thing you want to do is show up to an IEP and blame each other on who's supposed to have the progress report Absolutely. Do you find that your actual written goal looks very similar, whether it's collaborative or related service specific. Or do you find that they actually look pretty different?    Sarah Beaulieu     So and just my limited experience, of course, far where I have been working so much on goal writing, I have sort of taken charge on the formatting of the goal and I I run it by the teacher, and I asked, Does this sound in alignment with what you were thinking? Does this sound okay? So I've kind of taken that on, and the goal itself doesn't look much different than how I would write it as my own ot focus goal, it really does look quite similar. So for an an ADL goal around hand washing, it's broken down by following that activity analysis, I wouldn't necessarily write it any differently.    Jayson Davies     Great, great. And do you do you either put in the goal or somewhere I know every IEP looks different, and they have like different spots for you to input different things. Do you write within the IEP who is going to be accountable for measuring the progress?    Sarah Beaulieu     Sure, so on our IEP documentation system, they can add under each goal a responsible person. So I am listed as a responsible person under those goals that are shared.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha and but do you go even further to like say the OT will be the one to measure this goal, or the teacher will be the one to measure this goal. Or do you guys just do that behind the scenes?    Sarah Beaulieu     Sure it's more so behind the scenes, just in my experience so far, again, it's something new that we're trying to navigate. And yeah, I know, I think that that could come back if you're in a large district, and you could come back to bite you if you don't have it specifically laid out there who is responsible. So I, I don't think that's a bad thing to make sure that it's really clear in the documentation.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. All right, this is totally off the cuff again. I love that you guys are taking my off the cuff questions. Thank you back in the day, because you mentioned those responsible people, right? You write a goal and then you like, click a check box on next to the OT, next to the teacher who's responsible. So my first question is, is there an option for a parent to be on that checklist for a responsible party, for a goal?    Sarah Beaulieu     That's a great question. I I actually am not sure if that's possible in our system.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. So I remember back in the day, back in 2012 when I first started, that was an option. We could actually put a parent as a responsible party. Now we never did. I remember hearing that there was only like one time that the district ever did that, when I was brand new, and it was for a goal, an attendance goal. And so they actually did. They did put the parent as a responsible party. But it sounds like neither of you have probably ever done that right where a parent is a quote, unquote responsible party for a goal in addition to other related service providers, or have you?    Emily Deller     I have so many like problem scenarios that are going to provide right now, if I were to make a parent responsible for a goal, so I personally would never do it.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, and, you know, I think that's why it doesn't happen, right? Yeah, it's, it's, we are the specialists. We are the ones responsible for the goals. And that's what I kind of figured the answer from both of you would be, it's like, No, we haven't done that and but you know, you never know. So I figured I might ask. So All right, now I think both of you are working with the younger kiddos, but no, Emily, you're working with older kids too.     Sarah Beaulieu     K to 21.    Jayson Davies     Oh, wow. Alright, awesome, perfect. So then my question here is, do high school goals, elementary goals, maybe even transition age goals, the 18 to 21 year old kids, or young adults, I should call them. Do all these goals primarily look the same? Or do you see a big difference between obviously, the you know, the tasks that we're demanding, they're asking of them, is going to be different, but do the goals look similar in the way that they're formatted and overall.    Emily Deller     Possibly, it depends answer, right? So it really just depends on the students programming and the students needs, so in terms of the skills that are addressed, like, yes, you can have a high school student that's working on life skills. You can also have an elementary student who's working on that same skill. In terms of how they're formatted, they're not necessarily different other than the scenario that it might be done in could be different. So like, whereas a lot of times it's during structured therapy sessions, or within the classroom setting some of the older students might have within the community or on a job site as more of their area or where the skill is being measured. But because it's so specific to a student's need and because you're making a goal measurable and individual to that student, the format ends up being the same.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, yeah. I it was so much fun working with the high schoolers and the transition age students because of that, what you just mentioned, you could write a goal for something that happens at the grocery market, or you can write a goal for something that happens out on the quad, where they're all eating lunch. Like you don't get to do those types of things often, at least not often, with the elementary kids, because it really is based upon that that classroom. So, so yeah, that's a lot of fun when you get to the high school, school kids, and you can do something like that. Sarah, have you actually worked with older kids or not yet?    Sarah Beaulieu     Not in an OT capacity, my background is in being a bhp, a behavioral health professional working with teenagers, adolescents and adults with developmental disabilities, but not within the school based OT, practice setting.    Jayson Davies     Gotcha, very cool. That's a it's always fun to hear what the background, what background people have too, because it influences, you know, our practice today as occupational therapy practitioners, so very slowly. All right, I want to play a little game with you all. I never well, maybe I did it one time before on an episode, but it's going to be like a quick response game. But I have one more question before we get to that. So what might you say to a parent who is asking for more goals at an IEP earlier, I asked you, maybe a parent wants a different goal. But again, kind of the you get to that IEP meeting, and this happens frequently for ot practitioners, they want more goals. What might you? How might you respond?    Emily Deller     I think a lot of it we had mentioned in terms of less is more in goal writings, that. We can address a skill and it carry over to another area of need, again, saying that we need baseline data, we need to stop, but also, really the fact that we can address multiple areas, multiple skill needs, with outside of the goals, so the interventions that we choose and advocating this to a parent to parent, our interventions aren't necessarily guiding the amount of goals, just the quality of what we're doing as therapists. So just because we had a different goal doesn't mean that the student is going to get more services. It also doesn't mean that they're going to make more progress.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. And Sarah, do you have anything that you'd like to to add to that?    Sarah Beaulieu     No, I think Emily laid it out beautifully. I think that really emphasizing that just because we're adding more goals doesn't mean they're going to get more dedicated therapy time each week, because we want what's least restrictive, and adding multiple so many goals doesn't improve their progress towards those goals, I think about like my personal life, my personal goal setting. If I had so many different personal goals that I'm trying to strive towards within the year, I'm not necessarily going to be able to accomplish all of those goals. Whereas, on the flip side, if I really narrowed it down to what's most important, my chances of meeting those goals would be higher. So I know that necessarily won't translate to the parent and then I think, but just really trying to explain that more is not always better.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, 100% agree. All right, so we're going to play a game here. This is going to be a quote, unquote quick response. We'll try to make it quick. Who knows? Maybe it won't be as quick, but I'm going to ask you several questions I have here. And yeah, we'll just see how this goes. This first one, I'm actually going to trick you a little bit. How far in advance of an IEP, should you have the goals written?    Sarah Beaulieu     Should or do?     Jayson Davies     Should.    Sarah Beaulieu     You should have them as far enough in advance that allows everybody else on the team, including the parents, time to be able to review those so I'd shoot for at least a week. I know in my district, we have a minimum of three days. I always like to do it before. Then I typically start the goal writing process several weeks in advance of the IEP, just so I have enough time to collect that baseline data. But I don't typically have them, like, fully formatted and written till we're a bit closer to the IEP.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. So, So Sarah's answer is about a week is like the should? What about you, Emily? What is the should date?     Emily Deller     Oh, well, that scares me. We have to send IEPs home in draft form five days before the meeting, at least. But I like to have at least three sessions of data prior for the baseline to be written. So you should have it at least two to three weeks out of the IEP written.    Jayson Davies     All right, so one week for Sarah, two to three weeks for Emily. And now is the what do you actually get done? When does it actually happen for you?    Emily Deller     The night before it's due?    Jayson Davies     So all right. All right, I'll let that one slide this time. Oh gosh, I'm the same way, right? You aim for, usually I aim for about a week before, but oftentimes it it could be a few minutes before walking into the ivy. Yeah. All right. So next question, what is your Instagram handle? We'll start with Emily.    Emily Deller     My Instagram is Emily Marie, underscore, OT.    Jayson Davies     All right, be sure to follow Emily and Sarah. Mine    Sarah Beaulieu     is Sarah, B, O, T, B, E, E, like the bumble bee, absolutely Oh. And I should mention that Sarah with an h,    Jayson Davies     S, A, R, A, H, right.    Sarah Beaulieu     Got it.    Jayson Davies     All right, fun one here. Think about the future and finish the blank. One day I will likely write a goal for a student to what?    Emily Deller     Shave facial hair.    Jayson Davies     All right. All right. Very functional.     Emily Deller     Yeah, not something I've written yet, but I feel like coming with a few of my students as they're getting together. All right,    Jayson Davies     all right. And what about you, Sarah?    Sarah Beaulieu     so I've worked a lot with students who use AAC devices, so I could see myself one day writing a goal that one day the student will be able to access their AAC device, and I see that as a collaborative goal with a speech therapist.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, it always should be collaborative whenever you're talking about AAC, in my opinion, yeah, personally, for me, I when I wrote this question, I was thinking about the one thing that I always kind of joke, a lot joke about in IEPs, but I think one day it will happen, and that is access to social media for a student, making sure that they have access to social media. Because, I mean, right now my my little cousin, she's 12, and she's in the other room and, oh my gosh, all she is doing is on her phone. I mean, I'm on my phone a lot, but, my goodness, yeah, so I think social media might be one thing that I might do one day in the future.    Sarah Beaulieu     That's a cool one.     Jayson Davies     Yeah. All Right, If we see you at a conference, what color pen are you using? Sarah,    Sarah Beaulieu     probably black, classic.    Jayson Davies     All right, and what color is the actual pen? Is it black, or is it like a cute pen, or what? No, but the actual like the style of pen Are you are you using? What are you using? Are using a Bic pen are you using?    Sarah Beaulieu     I don't know it's been so long since I've been at an in person conference typing notes on Google Docs.    Jayson Davies     All right, so, so an apple pen, an Apple Pencil, is probably her answer for that. All right. What about you, Emily,    Emily Deller     I'm a colored girl. I like purple or green, usually is my colored choice.    Jayson Davies     I could tell with the notes that you added to our Google Doc. They're all purple. Love it. All right, all right. So, so we got some some flair with Emily, and we got some classic black with Sarah. What do you prefer collaborative goals or service specific goals prefer? What do you prefer?    Emily Deller     So, I prefer collaborative. I do find that that transdisciplinary approach is the most effective for skill acquisition and progress. I mean, while I'm still using Service specific goals, those meetings that we have really allow us to be collaborative.     Jayson Davies     And what about you, Sarah?    Sarah Beaulieu     For me, since it's all that I'm used to, I'm really most comfortable with ot specific goals. But as I've sort of dove into it this year. I've really come to enjoy writing those collaborative goals, and I definitely see that moving forward as something that I prefer overall.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, absolutely love it, all right. This is a fun one, and I'm when I say fun, it's like, I really look forward to your answer on this. Should students help write their own goals? Emily.    Emily Deller     Yes, yes, of course, if they're able, definitely we need to be writing client centered goals. It's really crucial to our practice and the students progress if they're not writing their own goals, and we need to make sure that it's addressing what's important and motivating to the student.    Jayson Davies     And Sarah, I assume you agree or no,    Sarah Beaulieu     Definitely, in my experience at the elementary level, our students aren't usually involved in the goal writing process, but I think it's still really important that we connect them to those goals in therapy and make sure that they understand what they're working on and why that it's important, and making sure that it's meaningful to them as well.    Jayson Davies     All right, this is my favorite part of the game. It's my game. I get to create the rules and change the rules. At what age might you consider having a student to really help out with that goal writing?    Sarah Beaulieu     Gosh, I don't think it could really necessarily be defined just by age. I think it's important to also consider their cognitive capacity as well and how aware they are if their therapy goals. But I mean, I could see potentially some of my later elementary students being included in that process.    Jayson Davies     Yeah. What about you Emily?    Emily Deller     Yeah, I've done it with as early as third grade.    Jayson Davies     Okay, very cool. I like that answer. All right. Final question, what is the most unique goal you have ever written as a school based occupational therapy practitioner who wants to start with this one. Go for it. Emily.    Emily Deller     All right, so I do work at a school for the deaf, which is unique. So I get to write goals that are specific to addressing hand shapes for ASL.     Jayson Davies     Oh, that's awesome. I love that. What about you Sarah?    Sarah Beaulieu     So I recently wrote a goal around brailler use for a student who has visual impairment working on finger isolation and strength in order to activate the keys on their brailler. And that's been definitely the most unique one I've written so far.    Jayson Davies     That is that's very cool. I love that. I have never worked with a student using a brailler, but that would be interesting. My My wife had a student in her classroom who used a brailler. And I was a little shocked and let down by how few services that that student had for him. This was in a public school setting, and I was like, he had someone who was helping him learn the brailler, but I thought he needed more. But, you know, I'm I wasn't the OT at the school, so yeah, not my pleasure.    Sarah Beaulieu     That's been really a really fun thing to work on.    Jayson Davies     Very cool. All right, before I let you go, what resources are out there for school based OTs to improve their goal writing?    Emily Deller     Sure. So Sarah and I do have a school based ot goal writing workshop, and it's unique because we do work on the goals with you in the moment, review case studies and really ask for that active participation, so you're getting a lot of feedback instead of just kind of like watching a video. There are some books out there as well. There is the documenting occupational therapy practice by Karen sains that really discusses co writing, vocabulary, formatting, but in a general sense, not necessarily specific to school based practice. And then there is an A OTA book called documenting occupational therapy services in schools. But neither of us have necessarily looked at that. That's one of the new offerings for a OTA.    Jayson Davies     Yeah, I just seen email come out with with that book being a relief. So interesting, alright? And actually, I want to go a little. Deeper you mentioned your course. Your course, it's cohort based, right? It's not like a self paced online course where anyone can sign up anytime you guys have made the decision, or you ladies, I should say, have made the decision, to really hone in on having that collaborative experience with everyone who's taking the course. So how many is it like weeks? Or is it what does that look like?    Sarah Beaulieu     So our our goal writing course, is really in the format of a live workshop, and we only launch it a few select times per year, and we limit the number of people that attend it, because we want to be able to give that in the moment feedback to people who are working on crafting their goal writing. So that's formatted in a single life workshop at the moment, where they come and we go through a presentation that Davies much deeper into the how to write and format successful, measurable, school based ot goals, and then it's followed by a workshop that gradually gets a little bit more involved as we go through on building that skill set even further, anything you want to add to that, Emily?    Emily Deller     and we really, definitely put an emphasis on that workshop component, where it is, going through case studies, going through questions, working you from ABC answers to crafting Your own goals and submitting them. It's a very friendly and non intrusive environment. We're not there to judge anyone's goals. I mean, we have written our own awful goals in the past, so it's really there to be a service for those who don't necessarily have access to those mentors out there, or other resources for school based goal writing.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely, and where's the easiest place for people to learn about the goal writing workshop?    Emily Deller     Sure. So you can go to Emily Marie ot.com/goals and we have a wait list there. So everyone on the wait list will be the first ones to know when we are launching next.    Jayson Davies     Great. And we will be sure to sorry, real quick, Sarah, we'll put that in the show notes so everyone can find that and go ahead, Sarah.    Sarah Beaulieu     I was just gonna say you can also reach out to us over on Instagram is probably where we hang out the most, and share some information about goal writing there as well. So be sure to look into Instagram if you're interested in learning more about that.    Jayson Davies     Absolutely. And Emily mentioned her website is Emily Marie ot.com right? Emily, correct. And Sarah, yours is Sarah B ot.com All right. So for everyone listening, you can find them on Instagram or on on their websites. I believe that's probably the easiest way to find them. Any last words or anywhere else you'd like people to find you at?    Sarah Beaulieu     Nowhere else for you to find us. But I just wanted to thank you for having us on.     Jayson Davies     Yeah, definitely thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure, and I'm sure this is going to help so many occupational therapy practitioners out there that are listening. So thank you for sharing. And you know you shared a lot today, so I can only imagine what else is in that workshop when people have the opportunity to take that so thank you again.    Emily Deller     Thanks Jayson.    Jayson Davies     And before I wrap up the show, first of all, thank you so much to Sarah and Emily for coming on the show. But before I wrap this up, I just want to say that things change so much I remember, I believe it was the second or third episode of the OT school house podcast. Was all about goals, and myself, and Abby at the time, who was working with the OT school house with me, we did an entire episode about goals, and we talked about smart goals, and I think we even actually added our little e at the end to make sure that our goals are educationally relevant, but things have just changed so much. Goals are so much more important, and the SMART framework still works, but we need to be careful when we are writing our goals. They do have implications on how we provide services, so make sure that you've written down some notes. Get those notes into your computer wherever they will be safe from this episode, because Emily and Sarah just brought so much knowledge, and not only about school based OT, but also how goals are different from the clinic setting. I've never worked in the clinic setting, so I was super excited to have them talk about how things are different from the clinic versus the school setting. Again. Thank you Sarah. Thank you Emily for coming on and sharing so much about goals. And if you want to learn more about Sarah and Emily and their goal writing course that they have be sure to head over to Emily Marie ot.com where you can learn all about their goal writing course. All right, take care, and I will see you in episode number 107.    Amazing Narrator     Thank you for listening to the OT school house podcast, for more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to otschoolhouse.com. Until next time class is dismissed.  Click on the file below to download the transcript to your device. Thanks for listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast! Be sure to subscribe to the OT Schoolhouse email list & get access to our free downloads of Gray-Space paper and the Occupational Profile for school-based OTs. 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